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submitter71

Who Preserved the Quran?

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13 hours ago, submitter71 said:

 

I did not change my stance. Please do not make assumptions.

The word Maliki and Maaliki are both written in the Uthmanic mus-haf as ملك. The Arabs had a tendency of not including the letter alif in some words. Other examples are الرحمن and ذلك. The correct pronunciations of both words are ذالك and الرحمان.

So Maliki and Maaliki are both written as ملك, however the latter is pronounced as مالك. They are two words that mean different things are written in one way. 

 

So we are back to square one. Other than compiling the Quran in order of largest to shortest surah - what did Caliph Uthman do?

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28 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

So we are back to square one. Other than compiling the Quran in order of largest to shortest surah - what did Caliph Uthman do?

 

Perhaps I should stick to quoting Shia texts. 

According to the second and third year Shia Quran studies curriculum at the Kazimiyya University in Iraq, Shaykh Mudar Al Sahaf in Durus fi Ulum Al Quran page 62 writes:

"The Muslims recited the Quran in many different recitations because of their different tongues, so there were differences in iirab which made them differ and become disunited. This led Huzaifa bin Al Yaman (36H) to return to Uthman quickly after the conquest of Armenia and Azerbaijan, with the people of Iraq, and to remind him that the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa aalih prohibited the people from differing in the Quran. He said: Move hastily before the Ummah falls into disunity like the Jews and the Christians. Uthman then brought the Muslims together under one recitation and it is the recitation that was known to the Muslims, that was gathered through tawatur from the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa aalih. He then prevented the other recitations and burned the other masahif or destroyed them, except the one that he chose and was copied by the committee of Zaid bin Thabit and others."

 

I don't agree with everything here, but will you admit that Uthman did more than collect the Quran from longest to shortest before we carry on?

 

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3 hours ago, submitter71 said:

 

Perhaps I should stick to quoting Shia texts. 

According to the second and third year Shia Quran studies curriculum at the Kazimiyya University in Iraq, Shaykh Mudar Al Sahaf in Durus fi Ulum Al Quran page 62 writes:

"The Muslims recited the Quran in many different recitations because of their different tongues, so there were differences in iirab which made them differ and become disunited. This led Huzaifa bin Al Yaman (36H) to return to Uthman quickly after the conquest of Armenia and Azerbaijan, with the people of Iraq, and to remind him that the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa aalih prohibited the people from differing in the Quran. He said: Move hastily before the Ummah falls into disunity like the Jews and the Christians. Uthman then brought the Muslims together under one recitation and it is the recitation that was known to the Muslims, that was gathered through tawatur from the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa aalih. He then prevented the other recitations and burned the other masahif or destroyed them, except the one that he chose and was copied by the committee of Zaid bin Thabit and others."

I don't agree with everything here, but will you admit that Uthman did more than collect the Quran from longest to shortest before we carry on?

 

So I am even more confused now. First you said Allah revealed 7 harf. Then you are saying the Prophet prohibited different recitations/harf. Then you are saying people disobeyed the Prophet and continued with different recitations until Caliph Uthman consolidated the different pronunciations. 

Is this an accurate summary? I am probably not your smartest student but I am a simple guy with basic understanding.

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7 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

So I am even more confused now. First you said Allah revealed 7 harf. Then you are saying the Prophet prohibited different recitations/harf. Then you are saying people disobeyed the Prophet and continued with different recitations until Caliph Uthman consolidated the different pronunciations. 

Is this an accurate summary? I am probably not your smartest student but I am a simple guy with basic understanding.

 

We will get to that inshallah. I would like first to hear you accept the fact that Uthman (ra) did more than collect the masahif and re-order the chapters from longest to shortest. 

If not, just tell me that what they are teaching at Kazimiyya University is incorrect. 

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12 hours ago, submitter71 said:

 

We will get to that inshallah. I would like first to hear you accept the fact that Uthman (ra) did more than collect the masahif and re-order the chapters from longest to shortest. 

If not, just tell me that what they are teaching at Kazimiyya University is incorrect. 

That is my question. What more did Caliph Uthman did other than re-order the surah from longest to shortest? Since you used the word "re-order", then I have to ask what was the original order and why re-order from longest to shortest? What was the logic behind it?

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13 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

That is my question. What more did Caliph Uthman did other than re-order the surah from longest to shortest? 

 

Review my previous post from the curriculum in Al Kazimiyya. He burned other Masahif that were written differently and gathered the people on one mus-haf. 

I will answer your question about the original order later. 

 

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48 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

 

Review my previous post from the curriculum in Al Kazimiyya. He burned other Masahif that were written differently and gathered the people on one mus-haf. 

I will answer your question about the original order later. 

 

These were different from the 7 harf or he burned 6 out of 7?

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27 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

These were different from the 7 harf or he burned 6 out of 7?

 

As I have explained, the recitations are based on the 7 ahruf.

So, if the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam recited harf 1 of Al Baqara then harf 2 for Al Imran, and you memorized that combination, then you would have "recitation X".

The masahif Uthman (ra) burned are based on combinations of the 7 ahruf. It is possible that some of these masahif did represent a harf in its entirety though. 

I know it is somewhat confusing. Please be patient. :) 

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15 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

 

As I have explained, the recitations are based on the 7 ahruf.

So, if the Prophet salalahu alaihi wa salam recited harf 1 of Al Baqara then harf 2 for Al Imran, and you memorized that combination, then you would have "recitation X".

The masahif Uthman (ra) burned are based on combinations of the 7 ahruf. It is possible that some of these masahif did represent a harf in its entirety though. 

I know it is somewhat confusing. Please be patient. :) 

so he burned harfs that were revealed by Allah?

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@shiaman14 You posted in another thread:

1) Caliph Uthman consolidated 7 harf into 1. That is tahreef; he is a kafir

 

I know that you are just making an argument and that you do not believe in the seven ahruf in the first place, but I wanted to remind you that Ali (as) approved of this, and that this is taught in Kazimiya University to Shias. 

Edited by submitter71

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17 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

@shiaman14 You posted in another thread:

1) Caliph Uthman consolidated 7 harf into 1. That is tahreef; he is a kafir

 

I know that you are just making an argument and that you do not believe in the seven ahruf in the first place, but I wanted to remind you that Ali (as) approved of this, and that this is taught in Kazimiya University to Shias. 

Brother - the issue is not what Imam Ali approved. We are not discussing him. We are discussing the burning of the harf by Caliph Uthman.

I need to know one thing very clearly: Did Caliph Uthman:

a) select 1 harf and destroy the other 6

b) combined the 7 harf into a new harf and destroy all original 7

Please select A or B and let me know.

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