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AbbaJaan

Fadak belonged to Imam after Prophet not Fatima.

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well fatima ra went to abu bakr ra to ask for it which means she believe she has rights to it (which is true since she is ahlulbayt & fadak is to be used for them, poor people, travellers etc), but why ask abu bakr ra in the first place if it was an inheritance? What happen to other inheritors? If it was a gift, why wait until someone passed away? Not to mention shia said this was done after she was abused & her rib was broken etc. Your rib was alledegly broken, got miscarriaged, house burnt, husband right's taken away and you think only about a piece of land? See the holes whichever shia version of history you want to take? It just doesn't make sense. Aren't shia the people of sense & logic?

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

 I am asking you to confirm if Fatima believed Abu Bakr usurped Fadak?

No we are not accepting this.

We are talking about person who lived 1400 years ago. How can we say what she or he believed in? Unless, belief been clearly, indisputably manifested on their tongue. 

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45 minutes ago, starlight said:

@shiaman14  Brother, they are not going to accept anything, not even hadiths will clearly state that Bibi fatima a.s died angry with Abu Bakr. 

They are just here to let out pre Muharram frustration :grin:

you are a woman right? do you believe ali ra the great warrior and husband would let his beloved wife who shia alleged was abused, beaten up until her rib was broken, got miscarriaged, house burnt to go to abu bakr about a piece of land? Do you know ali ra at all or how chivalrious an arab is towards his wife? This is ali ra the great warrior and husband remember?

as for shia muharram, why should we be frustrated looking at shia mud bathing, crawling, slapping, cutting themselves up etc? You are the one who should be frustrated not us :confused:

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restatement of history and or rijal to fit an agenda/aqeeda of Justice of the sahaba....

Whereas if one were to look at the salah which everyone recites and is as muttawatir as anything can be, is a prayer to Allah(swt) to let us be on the path of or to let the blessed people of 'anam' be our guide.

Before you finish your prayer Allah(swt) in his ever generous generosity answers your prayer in the form of the salawat/darood upon Muhammad(sawws) and Ali Muhammah(as) as your only true guides....here no matter how good the others are be they ashabb or azwaj or saints and qalandars or salman farsi or miqdad, the only compulsion upon us is what the darood e Ibrahimi(as) states.

According to your prayer the first pillar what Fatima(sa) or Ali(as) state is final and hujjah.

It is not even that hard to understand.

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19 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

In accordance to the sound reports both in sunni and shia resources. Prophets are not leaving any inheritance. Do you accept this my friend?

Where is the verse of quran that justifies your claim that the prophets do not leave inheritance?

Edited by skamran110

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14 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

No we are not accepting this.

We are talking about person who lived 1400 years ago. How can we say what she or he believed in? Unless, belief been clearly, indisputably manifested on their tongue. 

So the incident of Fadak never happened? There was no dispute? Are the hadiths wrong that say Fatima died angry with Abu Bakr?

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On 9/6/2016 at 9:54 AM, zainabamy said:

Because Rasuallah (sawa) gave Fadak to Fatima Zahra (sa) during his lifetime. This is witnessed by Imam Ameerulmumineen (as), Umm Ayman and Umm Salamah among others. 

Salam Zainabamy,

This makes sense. Fatima is Muhammad's daughter. Of course he would give Fadak (had to look it up) to her. Why wouldn't he?

Peace and God bless you

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On 9/6/2016 at 11:11 AM, AbbaJaan said:

 And technically Abu bakr was the Imam after Prophet(pbuh).

Salaam AbbaJaan,

(Jaan is a very cool name, by the way.)  :) Do you speak Urdu?

I've never heard my Sunni Muslim friends call Abu Bakr "imam" but rather the "first caliph", so my question to you is the following:

Are there a group of Sunni Muslims who believe Abu Bakr is an imam, and not just a caliph, or do some Sunni Muslims believe caliph and imam are exchangeable titles? I didn't know what about the 12 imams till I came on Shiachat, but I already know about the "4 rightly guided caliphs" - as my Sunni Muslim friends say. I've never heard them say that Abu Bakr was the first Imam...

Anyways, that just confused me.

Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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27 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Zainabamy,

This makes sense. Fatima is Muhammad's daughter. Of course he would give Fadak (had to look it up) to her. Why wouldn't he?

Peace and God bless you

Peace be upon you,

Exactly, part of the reason Prophet Muhammad (sawa) gave Fatima (sa) Fadak was because her mother Khadija (sa) gave away all for wealth to support the Muslims when the Meccans were imposing economic sanctions on them. 

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On 07/09/2016 at 9:39 PM, Abu_Rumaysah said:

In accordance to the sound reports both in sunni and shia resources. Prophets are not leaving any inheritance. Do you accept this my friend?

:bismillah:

:salam:

Do you see the irony of your case. Ayatullah Khomeini(may his status be elevated further) while mentioning the authenticity of the hadith still acknowledges that Fadak was usurped. Does this tell you that his understanding of the hadith is very different from your literal understanding. 

Also as you consider the Holy Prophet(sawws) to be a man like us then how come his worldly things are not to be inherited by his 'wurasa', or do you now consider Prophets(asa) different from the rest of the people.

:ws:

PS. Your answer still is in the salawat. Darood e Ibrahimi(as) of your salah and not some made up one.

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3 hours ago, haideriam said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

Do you see the irony of your case. Ayatullah Khomeini(may his status be elevated further) while mentioning the authenticity of the hadith still acknowledges that Fadak was usurped. Does this tell you that his understanding of the hadith is very different from your literal understanding. 

Also as you consider the Holy Prophet(sawws) to be a man like us then how come his worldly things are not to be inherited by his 'wurasa', or do you now consider Prophets(asa) different from the rest of the people.

:ws:

PS. Your answer still is in the salawat. Darood e Ibrahimi(as) of your salah and not some made up one.

as salam alaykum.

Being honest with you my dear friend, I am not interested much in his understanding of this report.

If we will agree on fact that this report is sound in accordance to both sects, we can easily move further.

I'll explain you why.

Fatima (as) coming to the Abu Bakr (ra) asking for her inheritance. He rejected this claim, with base on SOUND report that prophets are not leaving any inheritance. This going to be a fact. 

And what we can accuse Abu Bakr (ra) in, after assuming this fact. 

Sunnis would say: He was right. He had SOUND proof on his hand, and took a ruling from hadith.

Shias could say: He was wrong. He had solid proof in his hands, but he done wrong ijtihad. That would be much better than accusing him in disbelief, oppression, and etc. 

You see?

Such attitude would reduce the heat between two sects in Islam. 

I hope you can understand clear difference between tyrant that is making oppression without any need for proof for such oppression. And Muslim, who is doing wrong ijtihad, because he didn't understand report, verse and etc correctly. 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Fatima (as) coming to the Abu Bakr (ra) asking for her inheritance. He rejected this claim, with base on SOUND report that prophets are not leaving any inheritance. This going to be a fact. 

 

How is this a fact? Caliph Abu Bakr is the only one who heard this hadith and of course he has a conflict of interest here. Moreover, this is in clear contradiction to the Quran.

4 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

And what we can accuse Abu Bakr (ra) in, after assuming this fact. 

Sunnis would say: He was right. He had SOUND proof on his hand, and took a ruling from hadith.

Shias could say: He was wrong. He had solid proof in his hands, but he done wrong ijtihad. That would be much better than accusing him in disbelief, oppression, and etc. 

We can accuse him of lying and usurping the rights of the AhlulBayt.

Sunnis are biased and turning a blind eye to the fact that Abu Bakr is the only one to claim no inheritance from Prophets.

Shias are saying it is not a matter of Ijtihadi by clear theft.

4 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Such attitude would reduce the heat between two sects in Islam. 

I hope you can understand clear difference between tyrant that is making oppression without any need for proof for such oppression. And Muslim, who is doing wrong ijtihad, because he didn't understand report, verse and etc correctly. 

If the reduction of heat is going to be based on shias accepting the usurpation of Fatima's right, then let the fire burn hot and bright. There is no compromise between rigt and wrong or haqq and batil.

Now we can compromise to respect each other's beliefs but in no way does Caliph Abu u Bakr get a free pass.

The worst thing is that instead of stealing Fadak if Abu Bakr had asked Fatima to give Fadak to him for the Ummah, she would have gladly done so.

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9 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

How is this a fact? Caliph Abu Bakr is the only one who heard this hadith and of course he has a conflict of interest here. Moreover, this is in clear contradiction to the Quran.

We can accuse him of lying and usurping the rights of the AhlulBayt.

Sunnis are biased and turning a blind eye to the fact that Abu Bakr is the only one to claim no inheritance from Prophets.

:help:

Man do you really reading posts of people who answering you? Or just posting, and not bothering yourself with that?! Fear Allah my dear friend. No need for ifitra and blatant lies.

Abu Bakr is only one who heard this hadith?!!

13 companions in sunni sources reported this hadith, including hz Ali.

Muhammad Kulayni narrated in “Kafi”  vol 1, p 32:

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa from Muhammad ibn Khalid from abu al-Bakhtari from abu Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.”The scholars are the heirs of the prophets because the prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar, (units of money) as their legacy. What they left was certain pieces of their statements.Those who acquired anything of these pieces of their statements they have certainly gained a large share. You must be very careful, when acquiring such knowledge, to see from what kinds of people you receive them. Among us (the Ahlul Bayt, family of the holy Prophet s.a.) after every one there comes a just person who removes (and exposes) the forgeries of the exaggerators from it (knowledge), the infiltrated materials of the fallacious ones and the interpretations of the ignorant ones.”

Regarding the authenticity of this hadith, Allamah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi states in his commentary on al-Kafi, entitled Mirâat al-Uqul:
[This] hadith has two chains of narration. The first is majhul [contains an unknown narrator], and the second is hasan or muwaththaq. [Together] they do not fall short of being sahih. (Mirâat al-˜Uqul, vol. 1 p. 111)

So, DID SHIA IMAM SAID THAT PROPHETS ARE NOT LEAVING DIRHAMS OR DINARS AS INHERITANCE? DO YOU ACCEPT THAT SHIA IMAM SAID THAT? 

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On 9/8/2016 at 1:39 AM, Abu_Rumaysah said:

In accordance to the sound reports both in sunni and shia resources. Prophets are not leaving any inheritance. Do you accept this my friend?

Where is the verse of quran that justifies your claim that the prophets do not leave inheritance?

Do Sunni prefer hadith over the verse of quran?

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1 hour ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

:help:

Man do you really reading posts of people who answering you? Or just posting, and not bothering yourself with that?! Fear Allah my dear friend. No need for ifitra and blatant lies.

Abu Bakr is only one who heard this hadith?!!

13 companions in sunni sources reported this hadith, including hz Ali.

Muhammad Kulayni narrated in “Kafi”  vol 1, p 32:

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa from Muhammad ibn Khalid from abu al-Bakhtari from abu Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.”The scholars are the heirs of the prophets because the prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar, (units of money) as their legacy. What they left was certain pieces of their statements.Those who acquired anything of these pieces of their statements they have certainly gained a large share. You must be very careful, when acquiring such knowledge, to see from what kinds of people you receive them. Among us (the Ahlul Bayt, family of the holy Prophet s.a.) after every one there comes a just person who removes (and exposes) the forgeries of the exaggerators from it (knowledge), the infiltrated materials of the fallacious ones and the interpretations of the ignorant ones.”

Regarding the authenticity of this hadith, Allamah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi states in his commentary on al-Kafi, entitled Mirâat al-Uqul:
[This] hadith has two chains of narration. The first is majhul [contains an unknown narrator], and the second is hasan or muwaththaq. [Together] they do not fall short of being sahih. (Mirâat al-˜Uqul, vol. 1 p. 111)

So, DID SHIA IMAM SAID THAT PROPHETS ARE NOT LEAVING DIRHAMS OR DINARS AS INHERITANCE? DO YOU ACCEPT THAT SHIA IMAM SAID THAT? 

Lol. This hadith is talking about knowledge as legacy; nothing to do with inheritance and/or gifts.

Have you read the Quran as diligently as you read shia books?

 

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1 hour ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

:help:

Man do you really reading posts of people who answering you? Or just posting, and not bothering yourself with that?! Fear Allah my dear friend. No need for ifitra and blatant lies.

Abu Bakr is only one who heard this hadith?!!

13 companions in sunni sources reported this hadith, including hz Ali.

you mean 13 people corroborated the hadith that Abu Bakr heard?

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15 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

you mean 13 people corroborated the hadith that Abu Bakr heard?

:grin:

 

Quote

 

Muhammad Kulayni narrated in “Kafi”  vol 1, p 32:

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa from Muhammad ibn Khalid from abu al-Bakhtari from abu Abdallah (a.s.)who has said the following.”The scholars are the heirs of the prophets because the prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar, (units of money) as their legacy. What they left was certain pieces of their statements.Those who acquired anything of these pieces of their statements they have certainly gained a large share. You must be very careful, when acquiring such knowledge, to see from what kinds of people you receive them. Among us (the Ahlul Bayt, family of the holy Prophet s.a.) after every one there comes a just person who removes (and exposes) the forgeries of the exaggerators from it (knowledge), the infiltrated materials of the fallacious ones and the interpretations of the ignorant ones.”

Regarding the authenticity of this hadith, Allamah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi states in his commentary on al-Kafi, entitled Mirâat al-Uqul:
[This] hadith has two chains of narration. The first is majhul [contains an unknown narrator], and the second is hasan or muwaththaq. [Together] they do not fall short of being sahih. (Mirâat al-˜Uqul, vol. 1 p. 111)

So, DID SHIA IMAM SAID THAT PROPHETS ARE NOT LEAVING DIRHAMS OR DINARS AS INHERITANCE? DO YOU ACCEPT THAT SHIA IMAM SAID THAT? 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

as salam alaykum.

Being honest with you my dear friend, I am not interested much in his understanding of this report.

If we will agree on fact that this report is sound in accordance to both sects, we can easily move further.

I'll explain you why.

Fatima (as) coming to the Abu Bakr (ra) asking for her inheritance. He rejected this claim, with base on SOUND report that prophets are not leaving any inheritance. This going to be a fact. 

And what we can accuse Abu Bakr (ra) in, after assuming this fact. 

Sunnis would say: He was right. He had SOUND proof on his hand, and took a ruling from hadith.

Shias could say: He was wrong. He had solid proof in his hands, but he done wrong ijtihad. That would be much better than accusing him in disbelief, oppression, and etc. 

You see?

Such attitude would reduce the heat between two sects in Islam. 

I hope you can understand clear difference between tyrant that is making oppression without any need for proof for such oppression. And Muslim, who is doing wrong ijtihad, because he didn't understand report, verse and etc correctly. 

 

 

 

wa alaikum as salam

What you have to understand my dear student is that their(the inheritors) understanding carries weight whereas yours really is inconsequential.

Also the wahid hadith by the narrator for his cause is not this one you talk about. Abu Bakr used a different hadith. It would have been better for you to quote that hadith from your own sources. 

Umm Abiha Fatima(sa) is Ahlulbayt(as) and Abu Bakr is only a sahabi. There is this problem of Afzal/Aala versus an adna which as I tried explaining is so clear from the darood e Ibrahimi(as). What the Ahlulbayt(as) becomes hujjah just like what the Holy Prophet(sawws) says. There is no room for either conjectural interpretation or error.

Kindly note that it is not only the shias who accuse Abu Bakr of usurpation and more but famous companions like Abbas(ra) explicitly and many more including the wives implicitly. 

My sunni brothers are being indoctrinated too much by adalat e sahaba and one sawab for wrong ijtehad notion. There is no ijtehad in the presence of the Holy Prophet(sawws) or the Ahlulbayt(as).

In the meantime I would urge you to in your own time read about Fadak on Shiapen.

Edited by haideriam

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THE ISSUE OF FADAK  ( فدك‎)

Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم) received three things exclusively for himself when booties of various battles were distributed among Muslims. These were (1) Abandoned property of Banu an-Nadir, (2) Khaybar,  and (3) Fadak.  The Banu an-Nadir property was kept for his emergent needs, Fadak for travelers, and Khaybar was divided by him into three sections: two for Muslims, and one as a contribution for his family.  If anything remained after making the contribution of his family, he divided it among the poor emigrants.

Shias claim that after the death of the Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ), Sayyida Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) claimed the ownership of the Orchard at Khybar which was kept for the contribution for Prophet's ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) family.  It is reported that the Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) had bequeathed this property to Sayyida Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) during his life time.

The difference of opinion among Sahabah occurred after the death of Prophet Mohammad ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) when all his belongings, were treated as public property by Caliph Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ).

It is in Hadith - Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) said, "Verily, the Apostle of Allah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) said, 'We do not leave inheritance, what we leave goes into sadaqah.' Verily, the members of Prophet’s ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) family will get provision from this money. By Allah! I shall not change the distribution of the sadaqah of the Apostle of Allah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) from what it was in the time of Apostle of Allah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ). I shall continue to spend them under the same heads as the Apostle of Allah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) was spending." (Muslim)

It is in Hadith  - Narrated by Urwah Ibn Zubayr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) from Ummul Momineen Aisha (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا), She said  "... So far as the charitable endowments at Medina were concerned, 'Umar (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) handed them over to Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and Hadhrat Abbas (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ), but Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ)  (naturally) got the better of him. And as far as Khaibar and Fadak were concerned, Hadhrat Umar (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) kept them under him (under the Caliphate), and said: These are the endowments of the Apostle of Allah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) (to the Ummah). Their income was spent on the discharge of the responsibilities that devolved upon him on the emergencies he had to meet. And their management was to be in the hands of one who managed the affairs (of the Islamic State). The narrator said: They have been managed as such up to this day.  (Muslim).There are more Ahadith in this context.  When we study all these Ahadith, it is very much clear that the dispute was only limited to the title of certain properties  as public or private. However, the usage of those properties was never disputed by any one.  The income from those properties was continued to be handed over to the same recipients as was done during the Prophet's ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) time. This policy was continued under all the  three Caliphs before Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ). When Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) became the Caliph, he continued the policy of Hadhrat Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ), Hadhrat Umar (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ)  and Hadhrat Uthman (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and these properties remained titled as "Public".  So where is the dispute and why it should be treated as a dispute between Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and Hadhrat Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ).  These are historical facts sufficient to establish that the Shia claim of Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) holding up his pledge of allegiance to the Caliph Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) in view of his dispute over a property is absurd and malicious.   

There were three pressing reasons why Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) kept aloof from the worldly issues for a few months, after the death of Prophet Mohammad ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ). 

(i) The death of Prophet Mohammad ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) was a great shock for Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ), particularly as he was responsible for the last rights of the Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ). 

(ii) The shock of the Prophet's ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) death also shattered Sayyida Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) to an extent that she fell seriously ill and never recovered from it. Hadhrat Ali's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) entire household was in a state of shock and the fast deteriorating condition of Sayyida Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) was another serious blow to Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ). He did not want to loose her so soon after the Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ). The Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) and Sayyida Fatimah (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) were very dear to Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and their loss, one after the other, was unbearable and unmanageable for him.  He was unable to focus on anything except to care for his ailing beloved wife and praying for her recovery. This fact  was known to everyone in Madina, therefore Hadhrat Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and other dignitaries did not bother him for the Caliphate issues and waited until the situation at his home comes back to normal.  In spite of Hadhrat Ali's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) personal care and full time attention, Sayyida Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) died of her ailment within months.

(iii) In addition to the care and attention Sayyid Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) needed during her ailment, Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) was also busy in collecting all parts of Quran for preservation.  He realized the importance of this task and had taken a woe at the time of Prophet's  ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) death that he will not do anything else until he collects all parts of Quran and preserves it for future generations.

The above issues were more important and urgent for Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) which required his full time attention.  These facts are recorded in Tabaqat Ibn Sa'd, the famous book on History of Islam, as follows:

"When Hadrat Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) inquired of Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) why he was so late in taking public pledge of Caliphate?  Did he dislike his (Hadhrat Abu Bakr - رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) Caliphate?  Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) replied "I do not dislike your Caliphate but the fact is that I had taken an oath after the death of the Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) not to put on my sheet (meaning get engaged in any work) except for performing Salah until I have collected all the parts of Qur'an." Then Hadrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) publicly took pledge on the hand of Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and helped him throughout his Caliphate. He was very active during the time of Hadrat Umar (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) . in the matter of Hadrat Uthman's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) election he voted in Hadhrat Uthman's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) favor." (Tabaqat Ibn Sa'd)

 

Hadrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) was member of the core Group 'Majlis e Shura'  (Advisory Council) and also Jurist of Madina during the time of all his predecessor Caliphs.  He was also among the panel of six Sahabah who were responsible to select a Caliph after Hadhrat Umar's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) death. Hadrat Uthman (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) had great regard for him and consulted him in all issues related to the Caliphate. He sent his sons; Hadhrat Hassan (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and Hadhrat Hussain (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ), to guard Hadhrat Uthman's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) residence when the rebels laid siege to his house.

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6 minutes ago, Umair mudassir said:

 

THE ISSUE OF FADAK  ( فدك‎)

Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم) received three things exclusively for himself when booties of various battles were distributed among Muslims. These were (1) Abandoned property of Banu an-Nadir, (2) Khaybar,  and (3) Fadak.  The Banu an-Nadir property was kept for his emergent needs, Fadak for travelers, and Khaybar was divided by him into three sections: two for Muslims, and one as a contribution for his family.  If anything remained after making the contribution of his family, he divided it among the poor emigrants.

Shias claim that after the death of the Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ), Sayyida Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) claimed the ownership of the Orchard at Khybar which was kept for the contribution for Prophet's ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) family.  It is reported that the Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) had bequeathed this property to Sayyida Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) during his life time.

The difference of opinion among Sahabah occurred after the death of Prophet Mohammad ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) when all his belongings, were treated as public property by Caliph Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ).

It is in Hadith - Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) said, "Verily, the Apostle of Allah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) said, 'We do not leave inheritance, what we leave goes into sadaqah.' Verily, the members of Prophet’s ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) family will get provision from this money. By Allah! I shall not change the distribution of the sadaqah of the Apostle of Allah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) from what it was in the time of Apostle of Allah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ). I shall continue to spend them under the same heads as the Apostle of Allah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) was spending." (Muslim)

It is in Hadith  - Narrated by Urwah Ibn Zubayr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) from Ummul Momineen Aisha (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا), She said  "... So far as the charitable endowments at Medina were concerned, 'Umar (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) handed them over to Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and Hadhrat Abbas (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ), but Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ)  (naturally) got the better of him. And as far as Khaibar and Fadak were concerned, Hadhrat Umar (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) kept them under him (under the Caliphate), and said: These are the endowments of the Apostle of Allah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) (to the Ummah). Their income was spent on the discharge of the responsibilities that devolved upon him on the emergencies he had to meet. And their management was to be in the hands of one who managed the affairs (of the Islamic State). The narrator said: They have been managed as such up to this day.  (Muslim).There are more Ahadith in this context.  When we study all these Ahadith, it is very much clear that the dispute was only limited to the title of certain properties  as public or private. However, the usage of those properties was never disputed by any one.  The income from those properties was continued to be handed over to the same recipients as was done during the Prophet's ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) time. This policy was continued under all the  three Caliphs before Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ). When Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) became the Caliph, he continued the policy of Hadhrat Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ), Hadhrat Umar (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ)  and Hadhrat Uthman (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and these properties remained titled as "Public".  So where is the dispute and why it should be treated as a dispute between Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and Hadhrat Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ).  These are historical facts sufficient to establish that the Shia claim of Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) holding up his pledge of allegiance to the Caliph Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) in view of his dispute over a property is absurd and malicious.   

There were three pressing reasons why Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) kept aloof from the worldly issues for a few months, after the death of Prophet Mohammad ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ). 

(i) The death of Prophet Mohammad ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) was a great shock for Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ), particularly as he was responsible for the last rights of the Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ). 

(ii) The shock of the Prophet's ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) death also shattered Sayyida Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) to an extent that she fell seriously ill and never recovered from it. Hadhrat Ali's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) entire household was in a state of shock and the fast deteriorating condition of Sayyida Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) was another serious blow to Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ). He did not want to loose her so soon after the Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ). The Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) and Sayyida Fatimah (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) were very dear to Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and their loss, one after the other, was unbearable and unmanageable for him.  He was unable to focus on anything except to care for his ailing beloved wife and praying for her recovery. This fact  was known to everyone in Madina, therefore Hadhrat Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and other dignitaries did not bother him for the Caliphate issues and waited until the situation at his home comes back to normal.  In spite of Hadhrat Ali's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) personal care and full time attention, Sayyida Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) died of her ailment within months.

(iii) In addition to the care and attention Sayyid Fatima (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہا) needed during her ailment, Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) was also busy in collecting all parts of Quran for preservation.  He realized the importance of this task and had taken a woe at the time of Prophet's  ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) death that he will not do anything else until he collects all parts of Quran and preserves it for future generations.

The above issues were more important and urgent for Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) which required his full time attention.  These facts are recorded in Tabaqat Ibn Sa'd, the famous book on History of Islam, as follows:

"When Hadrat Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) inquired of Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) why he was so late in taking public pledge of Caliphate?  Did he dislike his (Hadhrat Abu Bakr - رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) Caliphate?  Hadhrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) replied "I do not dislike your Caliphate but the fact is that I had taken an oath after the death of the Prophet ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) not to put on my sheet (meaning get engaged in any work) except for performing Salah until I have collected all the parts of Qur'an." Then Hadrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) publicly took pledge on the hand of Abu Bakr (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and helped him throughout his Caliphate. He was very active during the time of Hadrat Umar (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) . in the matter of Hadrat Uthman's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) election he voted in Hadhrat Uthman's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) favor." (Tabaqat Ibn Sa'd)

 

Hadrat Ali (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) was member of the core Group 'Majlis e Shura'  (Advisory Council) and also Jurist of Madina during the time of all his predecessor Caliphs.  He was also among the panel of six Sahabah who were responsible to select a Caliph after Hadhrat Umar's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) death. Hadrat Uthman (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) had great regard for him and consulted him in all issues related to the Caliphate. He sent his sons; Hadhrat Hassan (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) and Hadhrat Hussain (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ), to guard Hadhrat Uthman's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) residence when the rebels laid siege to his house.

nice fiction brother.

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On 9/6/2016 at 3:42 PM, AbbaJaan said:

علي بن إبراهيه، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عنير، عن حفص بن البختري، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلاو قال:

الأىفال ما له يوجف عليه بخيل ولا ركاب، أو قوو صالحوا، أو قوو أعطوا بأيديهه، وكل أرض خربة

وبطون الأودية فهو لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وهو للاماو من بعده يضعه حيث يشاء

Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) said:”Al-Anfal is such property for the acquisition of which no camels or horses are use and no armed expeditions are undertaken. It is the property that may come as a result of negotiated settlement or certain people would give with their own hands, may come from a barren land or from inside the valleys. Such properties belong to the Messenger of Allah and it will belong to the Imam(leader) after the the Messenger of Allah. The Imam(leader) will spend them as he may consider proper.”(Al Kafi, Chapter The Fay’, al-Anfal, al-Khums, its rules and the properties subject to al-Khums, page 186).[Majlisi in Mirat al Uqul vol 6, page 255 graded it as Hasan(good)]

 

Al-Kulayni stated:

وأما الانفال فليس هذه سبيلها كان للرسول عليه السلام خاصة وكانت فدك لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله خاصة، لانه صلى الله عليه وآله فتحها وأمير المؤمنين عليه السلام، لم يكن معهما أحد فزال عنها اسم الفئ ولزمها اسم الانفال وكذلك الآجام(2) والمعادن والبحار والمفاوز هي للامام خاصة

The case of al-Anfal is different. It belongs to the Messenger only. Of such properties was Fadak that belonged to the Messenger of Allah only. It is because he and Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.) conquered it and there no one else took part. The name al-Fay’ therefore does not apply to it. Al-Anfal applies to it. Similar to al-Anfal are such properties as the marshes, mines, oceans and the wilderness. They all belong to Imam(leader) exclusively.(Al-Kafi, Chapter 130, The Fay’, al-Anfal, al-Khums, its rules and the properties subject to al-Khums).

Thus we find that after Prophet(saw) the property given to Prophet, will belong to the successor of Prophet, the leader of Muslims. So how could AbuBakr usurp Fadak from Fatima, when it didn't belong to her in the first place?

Thank you bringing a strong argument in favor of Wilaya of Ameer Ul Momineen a.s. I often say to my Shia brethren that Syeda Fatima a.s was first advocate of Wilaya of Ali a.s. She did not go in court of Abu Bakar merely a piece of land called "Fadak" rather to prove Wolaya of Ali a.s. If Fadak was to be decided in favor of Fatima a.s, the caliphate attached to it would have gone definitely to Ali a.s.

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On 9/6/2016 at 10:46 PM, shiaman14 said:

 

There is no confusion. Fatima could demand Fadak as a gift, inheritance, on a whim, because she dreamt owning it, wanted it because she loved the dates from it, liked to stroll in the lush greenery or just to pick a fight with Caliph -  her reasons are irrelevant.

Chief of all women of Paradise whose truthfulness is guaranteed by the Quran says Fadak is hers. Her word is good enough for Muslims.

 

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakathu,

Before we twist the Qur'an to establish our own whims - that it guarantees the truthfulness of this and the dishonesty of that - let us see what the Qur'an says regarding Fay (a category that Fadak falls into).

Four pages of back-and-forth and not a single mention of the Qur'anic verses regarding the matter.

"What Allāh gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allāh, His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad SAW), the orphans, Al­Masākin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allāh. Verily, Allāh is Severe in punishment." (Al-Hashr 59:7) 

The Qur'an makes it clear that Fai cannot have individual owners or a group of elitists laying claim to it.

It further states that Muhajir, Ansar and Tabi'een are to receive from it.  How are they to benefit from Fadak if it was given to Fatima (ra) or if Fatima (ra) dreamed of owning it?  Here are the verses:

 "(And there is also a share in this booty) for the poor emigrants, who were expelled from their homes and their property, seeking Bounties from Allāh and to please Him. And helping Allāh (i.e. helping His religion) and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW). Such are indeed the truthful (to what they say)" (Al-Hashr 59:8) 

"And those who, before them, had homes (in Al-Madinah) and had adopted the Faith, love those who emigrate to them, and have no jealousy in their breasts for that which they have been given (from the booty of Banī An-Nadīr), and give them (emigrants) preference over themselves, even though they were in need of that. And whosoever is saved from his own covetousness, such are they who will be the successful." (Al-Hashr 59:9) 

"And those who came after them say: 'Our Lord! Forgive us and our brethren who have preceded us in Faith, and put not in our hearts any hatred against those who have believed. Our Lord! You are indeed full of kindness, Most Merciful.' " (Al-Hashr 59:10) 

Now, whose words would you say are good enough for Muslims?  Fatima's (ra) words or Allah's (swt) word?

 

Edited by onereligion

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On 9/8/2016 at 4:13 PM, Christianlady said:

 

On 9/8/2016 at 4:05 PM, Christianlady said:

Salam Zainabamy,

This makes sense. Fatima is Muhammad's daughter. Of course he would give Fadak (had to look it up) to her. Why wouldn't he?

Peace and God bless you

Peace be upon you,

My humble suggestion to you is to familiarize yourself with what is being discussed, the Qur'anic verses in regards to the matter, the Prophetic narrations and the scholarly opinion before you comment on the topic.

Thank you.

 

On 9/8/2016 at 4:34 PM, zainabamy said:

Peace be upon you,

Exactly, part of the reason Prophet Muhammad (sawa) gave Fatima (sa) Fadak was because her mother Khadija (sa) gave away all for wealth to support the Muslims when the Meccans were imposing economic sanctions on them. 

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Abu Bakr (ra) gave all of his wealth in the way of Islam.  Umar (ra) gave half!  In one incident, Uthman (ra) stood up (volunteered) thrice to offer aid for Muslims.  If Fadak was to recompensate for sacrifices made by Muslims, then Abu Bakr (ra) had a higher stake in it than Fatima (ra).

Edited by onereligion

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The verses of quran evidently support  the view of Fatima SA and imams  duly rejecting the fictitious hadith presented  by the first caliph.

like:

From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large,a determinate share. 
Al-Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 7, translated by Yusufali

Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. 
Al-Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 11, translated by Yusufali

To (benefit) every one, We have appointed shares and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those, also, to whom your right hand was pledged, give their due portion. For truly Allah is witness to all things. 
Al-Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 33, translated by Yusufali

We read in Tafseer Ibn Katheer Part 4, ‘Surah Nisa 004.011 ‘ Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance)’:

The verse means that on the issue of children Allah (swt) is Just. During the era of Jahiliyya all possessions would go to the male, females would go empty handed. Allah (swt) therefore apportioned them their right.

If the view of first caliph was true then a verse of quran is needed that prophet  and muslims do not leave inheritance for  its verification.

Wassalam

Edited by skamran110

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16 minutes ago, onereligion said:

Abu Bakr (ra) gave all of his wealth in the way of Islam.  Umar (ra) gave half!  In one incident, Uthman (ra) stood up (volunteered) thrice to offer aid for Muslims.  If Fadak was to recompensate for sacrifices made by Muslims, then Abu Bakr (ra) had a higher stake in it than Fatima (ra).

The companion can never be of higher status than that of Ahl albayat AS.

Does the quran mention to love the companions? the answer is no.

did the prophet took the companions at he event of Mubahila? the answer is No.

did the prophet include the companions in the purified one verse 33;33? The answer is no.

do you like to reject the words of Allah swt in  quran and the prophet saww?

WS  

 

Edited by skamran110

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41 minutes ago, skamran110 said:

The verses of quran evidently support  the view of Fatima SA and imams  duly rejecting the fictitious hadith presented  by the first caliph.

like:

From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large,a determinate share. 
Al-Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 7, translated by Yusufali

Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. 
Al-Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 11, translated by Yusufali

To (benefit) every one, We have appointed shares and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those, also, to whom your right hand was pledged, give their due portion. For truly Allah is witness to all things. 
Al-Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 33, translated by Yusufali

We read in Tafseer Ibn Katheer Part 4, ‘Surah Nisa 004.011 ‘ Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance)’:

The verse means that on the issue of children Allah (swt) is Just. During the era of Jahiliyya all possessions would go to the male, females would go empty handed. Allah (swt) therefore apportioned them their right.

If the view of first caliph was true then a verse of quran is needed that prophet  and muslims do not leave inheritance for  its verification.

Wassalam

We are discussing Fadak and we owe it to ourselves to quote verses regarding Fadak.  What you are talking of is inheritance and on this very topic, we have people contradicting their own beliefs by saying that Fadak was gifted to Fatima (ra) and then quoting verses regarding inheritance.  We have jumped all over the place without realizing that inheritance can only come into play if Fadak could have been inherited.  The Qur'an says that you cannot have owners for Fai.  To supplement that fact, we have established that Shias believe that Fai remains with the leader. In conclusion, here is the equation set by the Qur'an:
No ownership = no gifting.  No ownership = no inheritance.

Irrespective of what you bring, the Qur'an has set the precedence that ownership of Fai is not permitted and therefore, Fadak can neither be gifted (hence the weak narration in reference to Qur'an 17:26 quoted by another member) nor inherited (hence the stance adopted by Abu Bakr (ra) which was the same standard that Imam Ali (ra) upheld).

 

 

34 minutes ago, skamran110 said:

The companion can never be of higher status than that of Ahl albayat AS.

Does the quran mention to love the companions? the answer is no.

did the prophet took the companions at he event of Mubahila? the answer is No.

did the prophet include the companions in the purified one verse 33;33? The answer is no.

do you like to reject the words of Allah swt in  quran and the prophet saww?

WS  

 

Please understand my point before going into a mindless verbal tirade.  If the Prophet (saw) was to recompensate everyone for their sacrifices by gifting them Fai (as suggested by Zainabamy), then Abu Bakr (ra) had a higher stake over Fadak than Fatima (ra) because Abu Bakr (ra) donated all of his wealth in the way of Islam.  

You went on a rant because you thought my point was absurd.  Exactly how I felt when I read Zainabamy's post except I was pointing out the lack of depth and understanding in her post.

Edited by onereligion

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1 hour ago, onereligion said:

 

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakathu,

Before we twist the Qur'an to establish our own whims - that it guarantees the truthfulness of this and the dishonesty of that - let us see what the Qur'an says regarding Fay (a category that Fadak falls into).

Four pages of back-and-forth and not a single mention of the Qur'anic verses regarding the matter.

"What Allāh gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allāh, His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad SAW), the orphans, Al­Masākin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allāh. Verily, Allāh is Severe in punishment." (Al-Hashr 59:7) 

The Qur'an makes it clear that Fai cannot have individual owners or a group of elitists laying claim to it.

It further states that Muhajir, Ansar and Tabi'een are to receive from it.  How are they to benefit from Fadak if it was given to Fatima (ra) or if Fatima (ra) dreamed of owning it?  Here are the verses:

 "(And there is also a share in this booty) for the poor emigrants, who were expelled from their homes and their property, seeking Bounties from Allāh and to please Him. And helping Allāh (i.e. helping His religion) and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW). Such are indeed the truthful (to what they say)" (Al-Hashr 59:8) 

"And those who, before them, had homes (in Al-Madinah) and had adopted the Faith, love those who emigrate to them, and have no jealousy in their breasts for that which they have been given (from the booty of Banī An-Nadīr), and give them (emigrants) preference over themselves, even though they were in need of that. And whosoever is saved from his own covetousness, such are they who will be the successful." (Al-Hashr 59:9) 

"And those who came after them say: 'Our Lord! Forgive us and our brethren who have preceded us in Faith, and put not in our hearts any hatred against those who have believed. Our Lord! You are indeed full of kindness, Most Merciful.' " (Al-Hashr 59:10) 

Now, whose words would you say are good enough for Muslims?  Fatima's (ra) words or Allah's (swt) word?

 

I am well aware with fai and anfal and what they mean and who it applies to. I wish instead of explaining it to me, you had been present to explain it to Fatima since it is apparent that you dont think she knew the Quran and its a ahkam as well you. 

Isn't that what you are really saying?

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48 minutes ago, onereligion said:

Peace be upon you,

My humble suggestion to you is to familiarize yourself with what is being discussed, the Qur'anic verses in regards to the matter, the Prophetic narrations and the scholarly opinion before you comment on the topic.

Thank you.

 

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Abu Bakr (ra) gave all of his wealth in the way of Islam.  Umar (ra) gave half!  In one incident, Uthman (ra) stood up (volunteered) thrice to offer aid for Muslims.  If Fadak was to recompensate for sacrifices made by Muslims, then Abu Bakr (ra) had a higher stake in it than Fatima (ra).

If only you knew history. Hz Khadijah gave more wealth to Islam than anyone including caliphs Abu Bakr and Umar. So if anyone had a higher claim, it would be Fatima.

Did you know Caliph Umar was a staunch kafir when Hz Khadijah was spending her wealth on Islam?

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6 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

I am well aware with fai and anfal and what they mean and who it applies to. I wish instead of explaining it to me, you had been present to explain it to Fatima since it is apparent that you dont think she knew the Quran and its a ahkam as well you. 

Isn't that what you are really saying?

You are not well-aware of how the Qur'an deals with Fai (maybe you deliberately avoided quoting the verses) because had you been aware, you would have quoted them by now.

Also, please do not put words in my mouth.  If Fatima (ra) approached Abu Bakr (ra) for Fadak as her inheritance (every authentic narration says that she asked it as her inheritance not gift), then there is nothing wrong with it.  Angels, who are infallible according to Sunnis and Shias, thought that they should have been appointed "khalifa" on Earth.  That is neither considered a sin nor being deprived of knowledge.

Edited by onereligion

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10 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

If only you knew history. Hz Khadijah gave more wealth to Islam than anyone including caliphs Abu Bakr and Umar. So if anyone had a higher claim, it would be Fatima.

Did you know Caliph Umar was a staunch kafir when Hz Khadijah was spending her wealth on Islam?

What difference does it make as to who gave more?  If you are worth $100,000 and I am worth $10,000 and we both give our entire savings to a cause, is there really a qualitative difference?  Quantitative, yes, but qualitatively speaking (considering our intentions and adherence to our beliefs), there is no difference.

As for Umar's (ra) state before he accepted Islam, they say, "every saint has a past and every sinner has a future".  No one taught you that I'm guessing....and let us not derail the topic.

Edited by onereligion

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