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In the Name of God بسم الله
Haydar Husayn

Do Catholics Worship Mary?

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^ Well, that would be some Protestants' take on it. Others seem to go along with the Catholic view, minus the Purgatory. Again, Catholics are not sola scriptura.

I guess we will find out.

Upon neither view depends salvation, however, fortunately, according to Catholics.

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On 11 March 2017 at 8:45 PM, andres said:

Yes, there are many different traditions and we do not always agree wich are true. Already Paul had disagreements with the Church in Jerusalem. Just for my convenience; can you point out the places in 2 Corinthians and Phillipians.

My belief is that Mary awaits Jesus return just like all other humans, so I am not claiming to know this as a fact. However it has pussled me that the Pope as late as 1950 made it a dogma that Mary was in heaven, her body inclusively. It may seem strange that it took the church so long to erase all doubts about this, so I wonder if such ex cathedra proclamations are believed to be revelations from God.

What makes you think Jesus is returning at all?

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

What makes you think Jesus is returning at all?

A  question Christians have heard for 2.000 years. 

Have you ever been asked what makes you think that the 12th Imam will return at all?

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18 minutes ago, andres said:

A  question Christians have heard for 2.000 years. 

Have you ever been asked what makes you think that the 12th Imam will return at all?

The difference is that I don't cast doubt on all the underpinnings of such a belief, like you do. You uncritically believe whatever non-Christian scholars say about the Bible, and state mere theories (including some extremely dubious ones) as fact, but then turn around and say you believe that Jesus will miraculously come back?! How come that isn't a myth, but everything you find weird in the Old Testament is? As you yourself say, the writers of the New Testament were just fallible men, who were wrong about lots of things, so why on earth would you trust them about the miraculous second coming of a man who lived 2000 years ago?

The issue here is consistency in beliefs and methodology, which seems seriously lacking in your case. The same scholars that you love to quote about other parts of the Bible also believe that the second coming of Jesus is obviously a myth. So why don't you take their word on that, like you do about so much else?

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2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

 As you yourself say, the writers of the New Testament were just fallible men, who were wrong about lots of things, so why on earth would you trust them about the miraculous second coming of a man who lived 2000 years ago?

Had Jesus been a normal human man I would say he would be in his grave. But Jesus is divine. 

Yes, the Bible contain human errors. This does not mean everything is wrong. The Quran is not perfect either. Those that believe the Quran/Bible is perfect, will never agree on how to interpret them. These are maybe their most dangerous errors.

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10 minutes ago, andres said:

Had Jesus been a normal human man I would say he would be in his grave. But Jesus is divine. 

Yes, the Bible contain human errors. This does not mean everything is wrong. The Quran is not perfect either. Those that believe the Quran/Bible is perfect, will never agree on how to interpret them. These are maybe their most dangerous errors.

Why do you trust these fallible men, who you think made up lots of other things about Jesus, to truthful when they make the extraordinary claim that he was divine? What is your methodology to know when to trust them, and when not to trust them? Certainly those scholars you rely on about everything else don't think Jesus is divine.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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On 4/14/2017 at 2:15 PM, andres said:

Had Jesus been a normal human man I would say he would be in his grave. But Jesus is divine. 

Yes, the Bible contain human errors. This does not mean everything is wrong. The Quran is not perfect either. Those that believe the Quran/Bible is perfect, will never agree on how to interpret them. These are maybe their most dangerous errors.

The Quran has come from the mouth of one individual - Muhammed [saw]. It has been transmitted by so many individuals that is has exceeded the status of [Edited Out]tur, and is Mutawattir, meaning, so many people from a variety of geographical locations and places are narrating this that it would be unthinkable to suggest everyone colluded together on a conspiracy to invent it. Studying it and also examining manuscripts enables us to clearly establish this.

Ofcourse, we say that it was from the mouth of Muhammed [saw] as revelation from the creator.

The bible on the other hand [New testament] came from a number of authors who combined what they heard and maybe what they wanted to write and believe. They are not the companions of Jesus [peace be upon him], but unknown authors. The political establishment are the ones who decided what to put into the cannon and what to leave aside. Essentially, there is no way to verify if those who wrote it were truthful, or who they even were.

In Islam, we have a term and a science dedicated to examining the chain of transmission of works and traditions. If we have a chain of transmitters to the prophet or imam asws, and we know everyone in the chain but one individual is unknown [hence we can not verify who he was, if he was truthful, and things said of him] the entire chain is graded 'dhaif' unless the content can be corroborated or is of an issue that is not requiring of such stringent measures - like a prayer [dua].

Whether you doubt the Quran is from God or not, the issue remains that the Quran, unlike the new testament, can be established to come from Muhammed [saw]. Whilst for the New Testament, we simply do not know who wrote what, which is why there are many contradictions and erroneous material contained in it.

Of course, we muslims do not believe the entire thing was a conspiracy theory and hence affirm that portions of the New Testament have retained some truth, though it has been mixed with non-truths and other things. Studying the sources we have for the new testament it is therefore not strange to understand why.

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Most likely the Quran is the same as it was after having been compiled and all not 100% exact Qurans was burnt. If theese words were exactly the ones that Muhammed heard is a matter of belief. Personally I find this very unlikely. As I said, the Quran can also (like the Bible) be interpreted in contradictory ways. Sometimes this not the interpreters fault. 

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Salam

Some Catholics belive that they aren't worthy enough to pray to God so they pray to Mary to pray for them for some reason.

I don't know if it's called worshiping but it's definetly shirk.

 

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39 minutes ago, Yacoub said:

Salam

Some Catholics belive that they aren't worthy enough to pray to God so they pray to Mary to pray for them for some reason.

I don't know if it's called worshiping but it's definetly shirk.

 

Just like you and me, Catholics pray to God. We may think their connection with Mary is strange, but they say they do not worship her. Why disbelieve what they say? 

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18 minutes ago, andres said:

Just like you and me, Catholics pray to God. We may think their connection with Mary is strange, but they say they do not worship her. Why disbelieve what they say? 

Brother, just like i said some Catholics pray to Mary NOT God but Mary because they think they aren't worthy enough to pray to god so how are they worshiping god if they're not praying to god?

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18 hours ago, Yacoub said:

Brother, just like i said some Catholics pray to Mary NOT God but Mary because they think they aren't worthy enough to pray to god so how are they worshiping god if they're not praying to god?

Which catholics are you talking about?

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Theologically, it's impossible to worship Mary.

Its supposed to be intercessory with Mary. Like asking your big sister to ask your father for something for you . You're not worshipping your sister or mistaking her for your dad. Mary is a very mother-like figure for many Catholics. Do I know what is going on inside the heads of a lot of devout BVM-respecting  Catholics? Nope. Nobody in my family ever felt they were worshipping Mary, though. That's for God.

 

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18 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Theologically, it's impossible to worship Mary.

Its supposed to be intercessory with Mary. Like asking your big sister to ask your father for something for you . You're not worshipping your sister or mistaking her for your dad. Mary is a very mother-like figure for many Catholics. Do I know what is going on inside the heads of a lot of devout BVM-respecting  Catholics? Nope. Nobody in my family ever felt they were worshipping Mary, though. That's for God.

 

But how are they worshiping god if they don't pray to god or when they need something they can't ask god for it because some Catholics like i said don't feel worthy enough to pray to god almighty.

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18 hours ago, andres said:

Could it be, if they exist, that they  represent Catholicism as little as ISIS represent Islam.?

Some Catholics pray to other christian saints but i don't think catholics worship Mary or other saints.

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1 hour ago, Yacoub said:

But how are they worshiping god if they don't pray to god or when they need something they can't ask god for it because some Catholics like i said don't feel worthy enough to pray to god almighty.

Who told you there are Catholics that do not dare praying to God?

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5 hours ago, Yacoub said:

But how are they worshiping god if they don't pray to god or when they need something they can't ask god for it because some Catholics like i said don't feel worthy enough to pray to god almighty.

Asking intercession is not worshipping.

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