Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Haydar Husayn

Do Catholics Worship Mary?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

40 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Do Catholics worship Mary?

No.

Why?

Because she isn't God.

How do I know?

Been one all my life.

Why don't some Muslims understand/believe this?

Beats me. I think it's pretty clear.

You might think that Catholics dont worship Mary but there are some who fall into the category of Worship. Like Giving names and Attributes to Mary as the Mother of GOD or the QUEEN of HEAVEN. Making Idols of them and Pictures of Her Jesus and the Father, all in a Trinity so to say. Mary is seen as the Medium of Carrying "GOD" and GOD cannot be Carried by a Lesser Being. 

You get my Point?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ since, according to Catholics, God is omnipotent, incarnation through a" lesser being" is perfectly plausible.

None of Mary's " titles" infer divinity.

She is not divine.

She was never part of the Trinity.

The Church has even rejected "Co-Redemptrix".

We're only allowed to worship God.

 

Edited by LeftCoastMom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

Fair enough, are you perhaps saying you would have veered to Bishop Arinus's viewpoint who was vehemently anti trinity and was the founder of the original Unitarian church which became extinct in the 8th Century.

The new Unitarian churches are an attempt to rediscover this lost theology

I am not a Unitarian and I do not believe Arius was either. Arius was as is not the only Christian that has questioned trinity. Christians do not agree on everything. Muslims dont either. The Quran and the Bible can be interpreted in many ways. They are not perfect religious instruction books. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, andres said:

I am not a Unitarian and I do not believe Arius was either. Arius was as is not the only Christian that has questioned trinity. Christians do not agree on everything. Muslims dont either. The Quran and the Bible can be interpreted in many ways. They are not perfect religious instruction books. 

All the historical notes suggest that Arius was a Unitarian. He might not have been the only one to question the trinity after the council of Nicaea but he was certainly one of the key players

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

All the historical notes suggest that Arius was a Unitarian. He might not have been the only one to question the trinity after the council of Nicaea but he was certainly one of the key players

Many Christians were in opposition to the mighty Catholic Church in the 16th century. Thats when Lutherans, Unitarians and some others entered the scene. Personally I find no support for trinity in the Bible.  I am also very certain  that the first Christians did not believe in the Virgin birth. Still I consider myself Lutheran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Roman Catholicism if one asks a layperson "Do you pray to Mary" as I did - you get the answer of YES. Substitute the word for worship and you get the answer NO. Its a word game that refers to the subconscious connection a person has. 

Coming from Catholic schooling for over a decade (primary and high school) - I'd have to say that there is tremendous devotion to Mary with a refutation of her place as a central focus as an independent and omnipotent divinity. That is to say, people seek her favour in prayer due to the maternal attributes, the attributes of compassion, kindness, selflessness and love that is ascribed to her personage. These qualities alone cause many faithful to beseech her. Ultimately there will be those who also ascribe (by implication) omnipotence to her as well:

Oh, most beautiful flower of Mount Carmel, fruitful vine, splendor of Heaven.

Oh, Blessed Mother of the Son of God; Immaculate Virgin, assist me in my necessity.

Oh, Star of the Sea, help me and show me you are my Mother.

Oh, Holy Mary, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and Earth, I humbly beseech you from the bottom of my heart to succor me in my necessity.

(Mention your request here)

There are none that can withstand your power.

Oh, Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee. (say three times).

Holy Mary, I place this prayer in your hands. (say three times).

Amen. 

Usually in these situations she is not seen as a deity thus worship is not utilized as the word of choice. But I think her personage is assumed to have a bit more gravitas than just intercession. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On Tuesday, March 07, 2017 at 6:27 PM, LeftCoastMom said:

What it  might "look like" to some outsiders isn't what it is.

I should think at least some Shia would understand that.

All (?) Muslims on this site believe the Quran is infallibe. To them this mean Catholics worship Mary as a Godess. Even when the Quran promises inheritance shares that exceeds the total 100%, some explanation must be found because, since there are no errors in the Quran, this cannot be an error. Within Christianity this was also so, not that long ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, andres said:

All (?) Muslims on this site believe the Quran is infallibe. To them this mean Catholics worship Mary as a Godess. Even when the Quran promises inheritance shares that exceeds the total 100%, some explanation must be found because, since there are no errors in the Quran, this cannot be an error. Within Christianity this was also so, not that long ago.

Understood, but that is their problem,not mine.

Muslims believing something about my faith does not make it true.

I know what I am doing and I know what is taught from the pulpit.

Even when some Popes pushed the lesser title of "Co-Redemptrix" the theologians ( rightfully) shot it down.

Good for us. 

 

Edited by LeftCoastMom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/9/2017 at 10:41 AM, LeftCoastMom said:

Understood, but that is their problem,not mine.

Muslims believing something about my faith does not make it true.

I know what I am doing and I know what is taught from the pulpit.

Even when some Popes pushed the lesser title of "Co-Redemptrix" the theologians ( rightfully) shot it down.

Good for us. 

I do not share your belief in Saints, but I am certain you are honest about yours. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ lol...well, for all the to-do about saints, it's pretty simple. 

A saint is a person who has gone to heaven. Some have been officially declared by the Church, but they are no different than ,say,your grandmother.

Asking them to intercede for you is like asking any other Christian to pray for you...except they are in a better position to do so.

personally, I don't spend much time doing that, though, outside of liturgical situations.

I usually address myself directly to God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/9/2017 at 5:31 PM, LeftCoastMom said:

A saint is a person who has gone to heaven.

Can anyone know for sure if someone has gone to heaven?

Or is it just guess-work, based on our knowledge of that person, which may not always be very accurate ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ well, we Catholics have hope of the promise salvation through Our Lord Jesus  if we die in the good fellowship of the Church. So it's rather assumed that promise will be fulfilled. 

However, you are correct...the Catholic Church ,unlike some sects of Protestants, does not hold with a person being saved forever,  if they abandon a righteous path. Also doesn't hold that salvation is only for Catholics or other Christians.

Only God knows who is going to heaven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

^ lol...well, for all the to-do about saints, it's pretty simple. 

A saint is a person who has gone to heaven. Some have been officially declared by the Church, but they are no different than ,say,your grandmother.

Asking them to intercede for you is like asking any other Christian to pray for you...except they are in a better position to do so.

personally, I don't spend much time doing that, though, outside of liturgical situations.

I usually address myself directly to God.

Personally I believe noone will be raised until Jesus returns. Mary inclusive. How do Catholics base the belief she is already in heaven?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, andres said:

Mary inclusive. How do Catholics base the belief she is already in heaven?

Don't know about Catholics.

But Muslims believe she is among the four best women God ever created.

So she must be in heaven. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, baqar said:

Don't know about Catholics.

But Muslims believe she is among the four best women God ever created.

So she must be in heaven. 

So what do Muslims base this belief on?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, andres said:

Personally I believe noone will be raised until Jesus returns. Mary inclusive. How do Catholics base the belief she is already in heaven?

Well, that is a neater " package " than Catholicism...lol.

As far as ordinary folks go, Catholics hold we are judged at death.

The holy go to heaven. The folks needing some "remediation "go to Purgatory to work on that ( not much talked about anymore but still a doctrine) . The evil folks go to hell. People are reunited with their physical bodies at the Final Judgment  and body and soul reap whatever fate you've earned.

As far as Mary goes, in Catholicism we have the doctrine of the Assumption ( in the Eastern Churches the Dormition of the Theotokos) which holds that, at the end of her earthly life, Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. This idea was around in the ancient churches for centuries, but only promulgated as doctrine in the Catholic West in 1950.

So...that's why we think she's there.

plus, as baqar puts it...it is logical considering her special place theologically.

( Still don't worship her, though!)

Edited by LeftCoastMom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3:36 So when she had delivered she said: "My Lord, I have delivered a female," and God is fully aware of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil."

3:37 So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said: "O Mary, from where did you get this?" She said: "It is from God, for God provides for whom He wishes without reckoning."

3:42 And the angels said: "O Mary, God has selected you and purified you, and He has selected you over all the women of the worlds."

*    *    *    *

Sahih al-Bukhari, V. 4, B. 55, N. 657 - Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): -- 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e. Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol. 7)

Sahih al-Bukhari, V. 4, B. 55, N. 658 - Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said "How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel (Fateh-ul Bari page 304 and 305 Vol 7)

Sunan Abu Dawud Book 37, Number 4310 - Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (pbuh) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (pbuh). He will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognize him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizya. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.

Edited by Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, baqar said:

Don't know about Catholics.

But Muslims believe she is among the four best women God ever created.

So she must be in heaven. 

When people die, they stay between this life and afterlife; It's called Barzakh. ("...and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.." (23:100))

 

From the Qur'an, she is among the people of Paradise. Among the people of the right. 

74.39. Except the people of the Right (the people of happiness and prosperity who receive their Records in their right hands. God will forgive them and reward them with much more than they earned).

إِلَّا أَصْحَابَ الْيَمِينِ

39. Except the people of the Right (the people of happiness and prosperity who receive their Records in their right hands. God will forgive them and reward them with much more than they earned).8

8. Believing in God and obedience to Him in His commandments are among God's rights upon human beings, so everyone is held in pledge by God as they are duty-bound to fulfill this right of God upon them. Those who fulfill this duty are released, while others are kept in Hell. The Qur'ān classifies people into three groups, according to whether they have fulfilled this duty or not, and according to the degree of its fulfillment (see 56: 7–10). In addition to the two groups mentioned in this sūrah (namely, the people of the Right and the disbelieving criminals [the people of the Left]), there are those foremost in faith and good deeds, and in serving God's cause; they will be the foremost (in receiving and enjoying God's mercy). Since they are the nearest to God and constant in faith and good deeds – a  and as they will, therefore, be exempt from being tried in the Supreme Court in the Hereafter (37: 128) –  they are not mentioned in the verses discussed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Well, that is a neater " package " than Catholicism...lol.

As far as ordinary folks go, Catholics hold we are judged at death.

The holy go to heaven. The folks needing some "remediation "go to Purgatory to work on that ( not much talked about anymore but still a doctrine) . The evil folks go to hell. People are reunited with their physical bodies at the Final Judgment  and body and soul reap whatever fate you've earned.

As far as Mary goes, in Catholicism we have the doctrine of the Assumption ( in the Eastern Churches the Dormition of the Theotokos) which holds that, at the end of her earthly life, Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. This idea was around in the ancient churches for centuries, but only promulgated as doctrine in the Catholic West in 1950.

So...that's why we think she's there.

plus, as baqar puts it...it is logical considering her special place theologically.

( Still don't worship her, though!)

But where do these ideas come from? Based on philosophy or Biblical verses? If the latter, wich?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ On Catholic interpretation of scripture and on church traditions dating from at least the fourth century,if not older. The Syrians and Armenians had early writings on the Assumption of Mary.

As far as Scripture goes, it's usually considered by most Catholic thinkers that the 12th chapter of Revelations is referring to Mary. The " woman clothed with the sun".

 

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

Edited by LeftCoastMom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail said:

When people die, they stay between this life and afterlife; It's called Barzakh. ("...and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.." (23:100))

 

From the Qur'an, she is among the people of Paradise. Among the people of the right. 

74.39. Except the people of the Right (the people of happiness and prosperity who receive their Records in their right hands. God will forgive them and reward them with much more than they earned).

إِلَّا أَصْحَابَ الْيَمِينِ

39. Except the people of the Right (the people of happiness and prosperity who receive their Records in their right hands. God will forgive them and reward them with much more than they earned).8

8. Believing in God and obedience to Him in His commandments are among God's rights upon human beings, so everyone is held in pledge by God as they are duty-bound to fulfill this right of God upon them. Those who fulfill this duty are released, while others are kept in Hell. The Qur'ān classifies people into three groups, according to whether they have fulfilled this duty or not, and according to the degree of its fulfillment (see 56: 7–10). In addition to the two groups mentioned in this sūrah (namely, the people of the Right and the disbelieving criminals [the people of the Left]), there are those foremost in faith and good deeds, and in serving God's cause; they will be the foremost (in receiving and enjoying God's mercy). Since they are the nearest to God and constant in faith and good deeds – a  and as they will, therefore, be exempt from being tried in the Supreme Court in the Hereafter (37: 128) –  they are not mentioned in the verses discussed.

Does it really say "they" shall be exemted from being tried? As I read it they shall not be doomed (=punished) at judgement day. Does the Quran anywhere say that there are individuals that go directly to heaven when they die?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

^ On Catholic interpretation of scripture and on church traditions dating from at least the fourth century,if not older. The Syrians and Armenians had early writings on the Assumption of Mary.

As far as Scripture goes, it's usually considered by most Catholic thinkers that the 12th chapter of Revelations is referring to Mary. The " woman clothed with the sun".

 

 Paul writes in 1st Thessalonian 4:

. But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I am aware that Mary died long before any of the NT books were written, and that Paul is not infallible, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that Mary already was in heaven. Like trinity dogma, this could very well be a later construction. Popes also have declared dogmas after the Bible canon. I believe some as late as only a couple of centuries ago. Were these revelations from God?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, andres said:

Does it really say "they" shall be exempted from being tried? 

The Quran does not say a lot of things explicitly. 

However, her very high status is acknowledged by the Quran and confirmed by the Prophet's  words, which means she is completely free of sin.

Her virtues are sky-high.

No trial is necessary for people of that high status.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, baqar said:

The Quran does not say a lot of things explicitly. 

However, her very high status is acknowledged by the Quran and confirmed by the Prophet's  words, which means she is completely free of sin.

Her virtues are sky-high.

No trial is necessary for people of that high status.

What the Quran does not clearly say, opens up for differences. That is why we have Shias, Sunnies and others. Same with the Bible. But maybe the tradition of Marys sky-high status is not one of these quarrals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, andres said:

Does it really say "they" shall be exemted from being tried? As I read it they shall not be doomed (=punished) at judgement day. Does the Quran anywhere say that there are individuals that go directly to heaven when they die?

They will enter Paradise without reckoning of their accounts. 

يدخلُ الجنَّةَ من أمَّتي سبعون ألفًا بغيرِ حسابٍ ، هم الَّذين لا يستَرْقون ، ولا يتطيَّرون ، وعلى ربِّهم يتوكَّلون

الراوي:عبدالله بن عباس المحدث:البخاري المصدر:صحيح البخاري الجزء أو الصفحة:6472 حكم المحدث:[صحيح]

Seventy thousand from my ummah will enter Paradise without hisaab (accountability) and they are those who do not practice ruqya and do not see an evil omen in things, and put their trust in their Lord.

 (Narrated by the Prophet's cousin, Ibn Abbas (r.a.) with a sahih (authentic) chain. Sahih al-Bukhaari 6472 and 6541, also narrated in Sahih Muslim 217 and 218)

Edited by Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ - صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ - قَرَأَ هَذِهِ الْآيَةَ : "ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌ لِنَفْسِهِ وَمِنْهُمْ مُقْتَصِدٌ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ " فَقَالَ : " أَمَّا السَّابِقُ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ فَيَدْخُلُ الْجَنَّةَ بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ ، وَأَمَّا الْمُقْتَصِدُ فَيُحَاسَبُ حِسَابًا يَسِيرًا ، وَأَمَّا الظَّالِمُ لِنَفْسِهِ فَيُحْبَسُ فِي الْمَقَامِ حَتَّى يَدْخُلَهُ الْهَمُّ ، ثُمَّ يَدْخُلُ الْجَنَّةَ " ، ثُمَّ قَرَأَ هَذِهِ الْآيَةَ : " وَقَالُوا الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ الَّذِي أَذْهَبَ عَنَّا الْحَزَنَ إِنَّ رَبَّنَا لَغَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ " . [ ص: 422 ] 

I heard the Messenger of God, may peace and blessings be upon him reciting this verse: "Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah. That is what is the great bounty" (35:32) - Then he (Messenger of God) said: "As for concerning those who were foremost in good deeds, they will enter Paradise without reckoning of their accounts..."

Source: http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=1504&idto=1504&bk_no=51&ID=1522

Edited by Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, andres said:

 

 

I am aware that Mary died long before any of the NT books were written, and that Paul is not infallible, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that Mary already was in heaven. Like trinity dogma, this could very well be a later construction. Popes also have declared dogmas after the Bible canon. I believe some as late as only a couple of centuries ago. Were these revelations from God?

The 16 th chapter of Luke ( parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man),as well as Phillipians and Second Corinthians speak of the possibility of the fate of souls immediately after death. As far as I am aware, many Protestant sects have the same beliefs that Catholics do regarding the matter.

However, Catholics and Orthodox also rely on established Church Tradition in matters of faith, not only Scripture. Tradition is not supposed to oppose,but clarify, the Scriptures. Ancient or modern, pronouncements on matters of faith follow this rule.

 

Edited by LeftCoastMom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was at my sinister in law's "life partner's" funeral. It was strange to start because he was navy for 2 years, and enjoyed old country music so there were bagpipes and banjos. This was his Christian church...before he studied Judaism. One spoke of Merv leaving Christianity but left it as such, and talked more of friendship, another spoke of Merv going in the ground until that fateful day...The other spoke of Merv meeting the Lord in the air. If it wasn't a funeral, I'll tell ya. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/11/2017 at 7:57 AM, andres said:

What the Quran does not clearly say, opens up for differences. That is why we have Shias, Sunnies and others. Same with the Bible. But maybe the tradition of Marys sky-high status is not one of these quarrals.

I think you misunderstood what I said. 

Of course, the Quran says a lot about Lady Mary's place in the eyes of God.

For example, she used to receive food direct from heaven. 

Do you think an ordinary person would receive food direct from heaven?

And by the way, there is ABSOLUTELY no difference among Shias and Sunnis about Lady Mary's high status.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/11/2017 at 10:13 AM, LeftCoastMom said:

The 16 th chapter of Luke ( parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man),as well as Phillipians and Second Corinthians speak of the possibility of the fate of souls immediately after death. As far as I am aware, many Protestant sects have the same beliefs that Catholics do regarding the matter.

However, Catholics and Orthodox also rely on established Church Tradition in matters of faith, not only Scripture. Tradition is not supposed to oppose,but clarify, the Scriptures. Ancient or modern, pronouncements on matters of faith follow this rule.

Yes, there are many different traditions and we do not always agree wich are true. Already Paul had disagreements with the Church in Jerusalem. Just for my convenience; can you point out the places in 2 Corinthians and Phillipians.

My belief is that Mary awaits Jesus return just like all other humans, so I am not claiming to know this as a fact. However it has pussled me that the Pope as late as 1950 made it a dogma that Mary was in heaven, her body inclusively. It may seem strange that it took the church so long to erase all doubts about this, so I wonder if such ex cathedra proclamations are believed to be revelations from God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/11/2017 at 3:38 PM, baqar said:

I think you misunderstood what I said. 

Of course, the Quran says a lot about Lady Mary's place in the eyes of God.

For example, she used to receive food direct from heaven. 

Do you think an ordinary person would receive food direct from heaven?

And by the way, there is ABSOLUTELY no difference among Shias and Sunnis about Lady Mary's high status.

I am very well aware that Sunnies and Shias agree on many things. I am not that familiar how you disagree and how you agree, but I am learning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, andres said:

Yes, there are many different traditions and we do not always agree wich are true. Already Paul had disagreements with the Church in Jerusalem. Just for my convenience; can you point out the places in 2 Corinthians and Phillipians.

My belief is that Mary awaits Jesus return just like all other humans, so I am not claiming to know this as a fact. However it has pussled me that the Pope as late as 1950 made it a dogma that Mary was in heaven, her body inclusively. It may seem strange that it took the church so long to erase all doubts about this, so I wonder if such ex cathedra proclamations are believed to be revelations from God.

Sorry, Andres, didn't see this until now. Still getting used to new baby in the house again after all these years. The little squeaker woke up a lot last night. Fortunately his mom and dad take care of that, but I still wake up and have the instinct to get up. Lol.

Catholics interpret 

2Corinthians 12:2-10
Hebrews 11:5
Philippians 1:23

among others ,as supporting their point of view, as well as Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross in Luke.

As for papal ex-cathedra pronouncements, which are extremely rare, they are considered more as definitive clarification on matters of faith usually already held. The Holy Spirit is considered to guide the Church in these matters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 6:03 PM, LeftCoastMom said:

Sorry, Andres, didn't see this until now. Still getting used to new baby in the house again after all these years. The little squeaker woke up a lot last night. Fortunately his mom and dad take care of that, but I still wake up and have the instinct to get up. Lol.

Catholics interpret 

2Corinthians 12:2-10
Hebrews 11:5
Philippians 1:23

among others ,as supporting their point of view, as well as Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross in Luke.

As for papal ex-cathedra pronouncements, which are extremely rare, they are considered more as definitive clarification on matters of faith usually already held. The Holy Spirit is considered to guide the Church in these matters.

2. Corinthians 12, is a very interesting passage. But it does not speak about what happens to Paul after his death, it describes a revelation he had while still alive. Maybe when he met with Jesus and became Christian.(?)

I find Paul to be very clear when he writes: 

16. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

When Paul wrote this, he was still certain he would be alive when Jesus returnes, so his fate after death is not revealed here. Clear is thou, that some Christians, if not all, would stay in their graves until Jesus returnes. The Bible does not reveal the fate of Mary either. If however, we literally shall understand the promise of Jesus; "today you shall be with me in paradise", a very large part of those Paul tried to comfort in his letter, (in my opinion) would go direct to heaven. Via purgatory of course, but since the robber on the Cross was supposed to make it into paradise the same day, his visit in the not very pleasant purgatory, would be rather short.

No, personally I do not believe the Popes have understood this correct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...