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In the Name of God بسم الله
Haydar Husayn

Do Catholics Worship Mary?

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19 minutes ago, notme said:

Not really extreme, or you don't get the point? 

I don't get the point. Give an example of a "mistake" made by an otherwise sinless person. I don't understand why there is a differentiation. Do not the same faculties that prevent one from not sinning the same ones to not make mistakes?

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3 hours ago, notme said:

@uponthesunnah I agree wholeheartedly. It is a shortcoming of language. Human communication is never perfect. 

With regard to the idea of infallibility, Catholics do not believe saints to be infallible. Mary is sinless, not necessarily infallible, and some other saints were documented to have repented of their sins. 

 

The Bible does not say Mary is sinless.

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3 hours ago, notme said:

So you are saying that Adam and Noah were polytheists?

Also, since no written record of Abraham aside from the Bible/Torah has been found, how do you assign this age? 

The Bible tell us that Abraham grew up with polytheistic parents. It also says that Moses had much troubble with his folks worshipping other Gods. The Bible does not say when they lived, but Biblical chronology suggest around 1200BC for Moses and 1800BC for Abraham. I do not know what the Quran has to say about polytheism BC.

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51 minutes ago, andres said:

The Bible does not say Mary is sinless.

*Shrugs* 

OK. I was raised Catholic, and taught that Mary was without sin. I was talking about Catholic teaching, not about the Bible. 

 

1 hour ago, magma said:

Give an example of a "mistake" made by an otherwise sinless person. 

I can't think of a real life example, but I'm pretty sure it's possible for a person to never commit a sin, yet not live a perfect life. Only people with great knowledge are capable of avoiding all mistakes, and sin is only possible with intention. (You can't accidentally sin.) 

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13 hours ago, notme said:

*Shrugs* 

OK. I was raised Catholic, and taught that Mary was without sin. I was talking about Catholic teaching, not about the Bible. 

So if we return to the subject of this thread; were you taught to worship Mary as a Godess?

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On 15/12/2016 at 11:59 AM, E.L King said:

False equivalence because I don't supplicate to Ali. Do you supplicate to Mary? Do you fast to her? 

I know you don't this is my point. No Catholic worships the Blessed Virgin. I have explained this to you, take it or leave it. 

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2 hours ago, shreek said:

I know you don't this is my point. No Catholic worships the Blessed Virgin. I have explained this to you, take it or leave it. 

Yea you see this is the problem. What you do to her, according to the Islamic defintion, is worship. You might not consider it to be worship, but we Muslims do.

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10 minutes ago, notme said:

But Sunnis say the same about Shia "worshipping" the Imams. Does nobody but me see the irony of this?

Let them say that. That's the Sunnis problem. Everyone has different standards of what they consider to be worship. Why should I be bothered about what Sunnis say?

Just like @shreek shouldn't care about what I say seeing as he is a Christian/Catholic. His standard to what constitutes worship is obviously different to mine.

Edited by E.L King

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Catholics, according to my Catholic friend, do not worship Mary (as).

Rather, they use Mary (as) for intercession. 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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On 26/12/2016 at 3:49 PM, Islandsandmirrors said:

Catholics, according to my Catholic friend, do not worship Mary (as).

Rather, they use Mary (as) for intercession. 

Of course nobody is going to say that they worship Mary, and it may even be true of themselves. However, to worship is an act, and the question is whether or not the examples shown in this thread constitute worship. In my view, they clearly do.

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4 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Of course nobody is going to say that they worship Mary, and it may even be true of themselves. However, to worship is an act, and the question is whether or not the examples shown in this thread constitute worship. In my view, they clearly do.

My understanding of the word "worship" is mental. You can bow all the way to the ground in front of a king, but if you dont believe he is divine, you do not worship him as a deity. 

But since you believe the Quran can never be wrong, and if the Quran say Christians worship Mary, of course this must be so to you. Like I find no reason to disbelieve Muslims when they say what they believe is divine or not, I find no reason to disbelieve what Catholics say. For what reason should people lie about this????

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Just now, andres said:

My understanding of the word "worship" is mental. You can bow all the way to the ground in front of a king, but if you dont believe he is divine, you do not worship him as a deity. 

The question then becomes what you understand by 'divine' or 'deity'.

Just now, andres said:

But since you believe the Quran can never be wrong, and if the Quran say Christians worship Mary, of course this must be so to you. Like I find no reason to disbelieve Muslims when they say what they believe is divine or not, I find no reason to disbelieve what Catholics say. For what reason should people lie about this????

Why do you keep repeating this lie, when I've already refuted it? Even if I were a Christian, Jew, or Atheist, I'd be making the same points. And as I'm sure you are more than aware, people from those groups do make the same argument. So stop repeating the same nonsense over and over. For what reason should I lie about my motivations, especially when the Qur'an doesn't require me to believe that Catholics worship Mary? I could simply say the Qur'an was referring to one of the many Christian sects of the time, for example.

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8 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

The question then becomes what you understand by 'divine' or 'deity'.

Why do you keep repeating this lie, when I've already refuted it? Even if I were a Christian, Jew, or Atheist, I'd be making the same points. And as I'm sure you are more than aware, people from those groups do make the same argument. So stop repeating the same nonsense over and over. For what reason should I lie about my motivations, especially when the Qur'an doesn't require me to believe that Catholics worship Mary? I could simply say the Qur'an was referring to one of the many Christian sects of the time, for example.

I am certain you are honest about your motivation. And if the Quran does not require you to believe Catholics worship Mary, you can believe whatever you find most realistic.

I agree it could be a possibility that the Quran refers to the confession from a local Christian sect. More likely, in my opinion, it would be based on observation.

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25 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I'm not trying to say anything. Is that how his words come across to you?

Normally one has got some kind of message when publicing quotes. But OK.

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6 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I just think it's an interesting quote. I wonder what it means? How is the world intrusted to Mary? Does Mary make peace and mercy grow throughout the world?

Rather typical Catholic. Saints can help. Has not really worked in the Middle East yet. Got nothing like it in Islam?

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On 10/09/2016 at 5:58 PM, andres said:

 Christian dogma is called trinity. Trinity seems unlogical to me and I do not mind if you believe this is polytheism. But Christian belief is that God and Jesus are Gods. Mary is not.

 

I am not able to define what God is, or exactly what the relation between God and Jesus is.

 

If Luther believe that Catholic belief is that Mary is a Godess, he is wrong. Personally I think the quote is political rethoric against the catholic church. 

Why  do you believe in something that is illogical? 

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13 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

So you are part of the Unitarian church?

 

I am a Lutheran. But I do not find support for the trinity in the Bible. I regard it as an understandable try to explain the relationship Jesus-God. The explanation (trinity) was voted for under much disagreement by bishops in the 4th century. I am confident they understood the nature of the divine just as little as we do today. But it is now old Christian tradition, and as such it does not bother me.

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3 hours ago, andres said:

I am a Lutheran. But I do not find support for the trinity in the Bible. I regard it as an understandable try to explain the relationship Jesus-God. The explanation (trinity) was voted for under much disagreement by bishops in the 4th century. I am confident they understood the nature of the divine just as little as we do today. But it is now old Christian tradition, and as such it does not bother me.

Fair enough, are you perhaps saying you would have veered to Bishop Arinus's viewpoint who was vehemently anti trinity and was the founder of the original Unitarian church which became extinct in the 8th Century.

The new Unitarian churches are an attempt to rediscover this lost theology

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