Do Catholics Worship Mary?

[andres]

 Christian dogma is called trinity. Trinity seems unlogical to me and I do not mind if you believe this is polytheism. But Christian belief is that God and Jesus are Gods. Mary is not.

 

I am not able to define what God is, or exactly what the relation between God and Jesus is.

 

If Luther believe that Catholic belief is that Mary is a Godess, he is wrong. Personally I think the quote is political rethoric against the catholic church. 

[Haydar Husayn]

3 minutes ago, andres said:

The Bible defines a Christian. The Quran defines Islam. Mary as a Godess is not Christian belief in the same way as Muhammed is not Islamic belief.

Catholics don't believe in Sola Scriptura, so the Bible doesn't define what Christianity is for them. Is the Ascension of Mary in the Bible? No, but it's dogma for Catholics, which means it is a necessary belief in their Church.

Saying 'the Bible defines a Christian' is absurdly simplistic, as you know that people you would yourself accept as Christians disagree about all sorts of things, including both beliefs that are in the Bible, and those that aren't.

I have also never claimed that Catholics regard Mary as a Goddess, at least not in the formal sense. However, they do have beliefs about her that would be consistent with being a goddess. More importantly, many do worship her. You don't need to consider her co-equal with God to worship her.

[andres]

40 minutes ago, notme said:

But did they call themselves Christian? Are Mormons Christan? They certainly think they are! They believe that men and women can become gods and goddesses, in addition to believing in God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit. If Mormons consider themselves to be Christian, how is it infeasible that people who deify Mary "mother of god" would also call themselves Christian? 

Is ISIS Islam because they say they are?

If Muhammed critisised Christians that believed Mary was a Godess, he and those "Christians" knew not what the Bible said.

[Haydar Husayn]

1 minute ago, andres said:

Is ISIS Islam because they say they are?

If Muhammed critisised Christians that believed Mary was a Godess, he and those "Christians" knew not what the Bible said.

Not that it matters much, because your argument is so ridiculous, but the Qur'an doesn't say that 'Christians' believe this. It just says that there are people that take Jesus and Mary as deities. And there are reports that the pagan Arabs kept pictures of Jesus and Mary in the Kaaba. So if nothing else, it could be talking about this. Now, can we get back to the topic of the thread, instead of dealing with your red-herrings?

[andres]

1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Not that it matters much, because your argument is so ridiculous, but the Qur'an doesn't say that 'Christians' believe this. It just says that there are people that take Jesus and Mary as deities. And there are reports that the pagan Arabs kept pictures of Jesus and Mary in the Kaaba. So if nothing else, it could be talking about this. Now, can we get back to the topic of the thread, instead of dealing with your red-herrings?

I agree. The Quran does not say the Christians believe Mary is a Godess. It could be Pagan Arabs had her picture in the Kaaba. They had many Gods.

And if the Quran thougt they were Christians, the Quran would be wrong. I know this is not an option for you, but it is for me. End of discussion.

 

Has the topic of this thread not also been covered.?

[Haydar Husayn]

23 minutes ago, andres said:

I agree. The Quran does not say the Christians believe Mary is a Godess. It could be Pagan Arabs had her picture in the Kaaba. They had many Gods.

And if the Quran thougt they were Christians, the Quran would be wrong. I know this is not an option for you, but it is for me. End of discussion.

 

Has the topic of this thread not also been covered.?

Ok, so Martin Luther can think that Catholics in his day were taking Mary and other saints as deities, but if the Qur'an implied that, then it would be wrong? Did he not know what Christianity was either?

[andres]

16 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Ok, so Martin Luther can think that Catholics in his day were taking Mary and other saints as deities, but if the Qur'an implied that, then it would be wrong? Did he not know what Christianity was either?

Dont be ridiculous. Thats not what I said. Virgin Mary is not a Christian God. No matter who say so is wrong. Luther, the Pope or Muhammed alike.

[Haydar Husayn]

1 minute ago, andres said:

Dont be ridiculous. Thats not what I said. Virgin Mary is not a Christian God. No matter who say so is wrong. Luther, the Pope or Muhammed alike.

You don't seem to be understanding the point. Someone can be treated as a deity by people without being called a deity. This is what Martin Luther was saying. So can you tell me clearly, do you think Martin Luther was wrong when he said the following?

"Furthermore, how will you endure [the Romanists'] terrible idolatries? It was not enough that they venerated the saints and praised God in them, but they actually made them into gods. They put that noble child, the mother Mary, right into the place of Christ. They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can anyone deny this? Is it not true?"

[andres]

1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

, but they actually made them into gods. 

I am a little confused by the word "actually", make it sound uncertain to me. Maybe not in english. If we can skip this word without changing the meaning of the sentence, and the sentence stands for his honest conviction, then yes, Luther is wrong. Catholics do not believe Mary is a Godess. Am I clear?

But as I said earlier. I think this is rethoric to scare believers from venerating Saints. 

Edited September 10, 2016 by andres

[Sumerian]

Putting up a statue and bowing down to it is worship in my book. Some might call it veneration, Muslims call it shirk.

[notme]

Some of you guys might be interested in this book:

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/en/books/BelTheChristofAncientTimes_10198845

It's free today only. I haven't actually read it and I don't have plans to read it, but it seemed relevant to the present discussion. It's there if you want it.

[andres]

7 hours ago, The Batman said:

Putting up a statue and bowing down to it is worship in my book. Some might call it veneration, Muslims call it shirk.

We can all be fooled by habits from other cultures that we do not understand.

[Haydar Husayn]

16 hours ago, andres said:

I am a little confused by the word "actually", make it sound uncertain to me. Maybe not in english. If we can skip this word without changing the meaning of the sentence, and the sentence stands for his honest conviction, then yes, Luther is wrong. Catholics do not believe Mary is a Godess. Am I clear?

Ok, so Luther, who clearly understood Catholicism a lot better than you do, was wrong. All the many Protestant theologians since him who have said the same thing are wrong. But you, the liberal Lutheran, are right. And based on what? The fact that since Catholics deny doing something, then they can't be doing it. If only that worked in a court of law...

 

16 hours ago, andres said:

But as I said earlier. I think this is rethoric to scare believers from venerating Saints. 

This is wishful thinking on your part. There is nothing in what he said that would indicate this, and elsewhere he has said:

Quote

No one can deny that by such saint worship we have now come to the point where we have actually made utter idols of the Mother of God and the saints, and that because of the service we have rendered and the works we have performed in their honor we have sought comfort more with them than with Christ Himself. Thereby faith in Christ has been destroyed. (What Luther Says: An Anthology, Volume 3, p 1254)

 

[andres]

Hi Haydar.

I am certain Luther knew Mary was not a Godess. He certainly disliked the veneration of Saints, but I am convinced he knew that Catholics did not believe they were Gods. It is like saying that there are Muslims that believe Muhammed is a God. I find it impossible to interpret the Bible and the Quran so, and I have never heard of any Muslim or Christian that did. 

That the Quran has misunderstood fundamental Christian belief is not possible if you are certain the Quran is an infallible book. We can never agree on this.

 

 

[Haydar Husayn]

On 11/09/2016 at 4:42 PM, andres said:

Hi Haydar.

I am certain Luther knew Mary was not a Godess. He certainly disliked the veneration of Saints, but I am convinced he knew that Catholics did not believe they were Gods. It is like saying that there are Muslims that believe Muhammed is a God. I find it impossible to interpret the Bible and the Quran so, and I have never heard of any Muslim or Christian that did. 

That the Quran has misunderstood fundamental Christian belief is not possible if you are certain the Quran is an infallible book. We can never agree on this.

 

 

You don't seem to understand the difference between believing someone is a god, and treating them as if they are (i.e. praying to them, making offerings to them, etc).

And once again, this discussion has nothing to do with the Qur'an, so I don't know why you insist on bringing it up. My argument here is the same as Luther's. Notice that the title of this thread is not 'Do Catholics consider Mary to be a goddess', but rather 'Do Catholics worship Mary'. To any non-Catholic, who isn't obsessed with scoring points against the Qur'an (or who doesn't have an interest in defending similar practices of their own), it seems pretty obvious that they do. Certainly this was the traditional view of Protestant theologians. But maybe they don't understand what Christianity is either.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Haydar Husayn
Spelling

[LeftCoastMom]

Since it's a Church I actually  live in, I can pretty surely tell you there is no worship of Mary. But I can't get into other people's heads. If some people do, it's wrong and definitely not doctrine. I myself don't see a lot of doing anything with "statues "of any kind. Respectful veneration of a saint and asking for intercession is still not worship, IMHO,which belongs only to God, according to the Church. If it seems like that to others, so be it.

As far as Martin Luther goes....any student of history can tell you the issues with basing opinions on writings of the opponent of....whatever you are studying.  I enjoy reading the guy very much actually, and studied him under the Protestants, but he was trying to make a point and had a bit of a hyperbole problem.
“The Pope is a mere tormentor of conscience. The assembly of his greased and religious crew in praying was altogether like the croaking of frogs, which edified nothing at all.” ― Martin Luther, The Table Talk of Martin Luther

“The Church of Rome ... has become the most lawless den of thieves, the most shameless of all brothels, the very kingdom of sin, death and hell; so that not even antichrist ,if he were to come, could devise any addition to its wickedness.” 
― Martin Luther, On Christian Liberty

In addition, the  Evangelical Lutheran Church felt it had to issue a formal statement apologizing for some of his behavior and its affect on future society...particularly his anti-Semitism.
I wonder if they will feel they need to offer one regarding his Islamophobia :

"I have some pieces of Mohammed’s Koran which might be called in German a book of sermons or doctrines of the kind that we call pope’s decretals. When I have time, I must put it into German so that every man may see what a foul and shameful book it is. 
On the other hand, he praises and exalts himself highly and boasts that he has talked with God and the angels, and that since Christ’s office of prophet is now complete, it has been commanded to him to bring the world to his faith and if the world is not willing, to compel it or punish it with the sword; and there is much glorification of the sword in it. That is the chief doctrine of the Turkish faith in which all abominations, all errors, all devils are piled up in one heap.
Mohammed’s Koran thinks nothing of marriage, but permits everyone to take wives as he will. Therefore, it is customary among the Turks for one man to have ten or twenty wives and to desert or sell any of them that he will, when he will, so that in Turkey women are held immeasurably cheap and are despised; they are bought and sold like cattle. Although there may be some few who do not take advantage of this law, nevertheless this is the law and anyone can follow if he will. Such a way of living is not marriage and cannot be marriage, because none of them takes a wife or has a wife with the intention of staying with her forever, as though the two were one body, as God’s Word says, in Genesis 2:24, “The man shall cleave to his wife and they two be one body.”

Now we have heard above what kind of man the Turk is, viz., a destroyer, enemy, and blasphemer of our Lord Jesus Christ, who instead of the Gospel and faith, sets up his shameful Mohammed and all kinds of lies, ruins all temporal government and home-life, or marriage, and, since his warfare is nothing but murder and bloodshed, is a tool of the devil himself."

( Luther had some good points  regarding many things, but it has been argued he forwarded some rather nasty attitudes that  extreme fundamentalist Protestantism has found it hard to shake)

One could also  argue that Luther could be forgiven for this diatribe since he misunderstood Islam, but before my daughters marriage, she was peppered  for a bit with videos by  Sunni Muslims " proving " her Shia fiancé was a " heretic", a " pagan", and " satanic". Your adolatry apparently extends to "worshipping Fatima as a goddess".. ( Ex-Shia will attest to all of this supposedly.)

I'm assuming all of these people are Muslim and we can take their word for it. Lol. 

 

FYI...When we took a look at the videos just for giggles, the comments on them looked a lot like this thread...from Sunnis accusing the Shia of worshipping humans to other Sunnis saying you were okay...just that some of you went a little " overboard". 

 

PS...I studied under " Protestant theologians"... Never heard any of them accuse us of worshipping Mary.

Edited September 11, 2016 by LeftCoastMom
Added thought

[Haydar Husayn]

3 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Since it's a Church I actually  live in, I can pretty surely tell you there is no worship of Mary. But I can't get into other people's heads. If some people do, it's wrong and definitely not doctrine. I myself don't see a lot of doing anything with "statues "of any kind. Respectful veneration of a saint and asking for intercession is still not worship, IMHO,which belongs only to God, according to the Church. If it seems like that to others, so be it.

 

So the prayer the previous Pope made to Mary at Pompeii, and the offering of the rose, is 'intercession' in your view? What would the difference be between the prayer the Pope offered to Mary and the prayer someone in a polytheistic religion might offer to a minor deity?

 

Quote

As far as Martin Luther goes....any student of history can tell you the issues with basing opinions on writings of the opponent of....whatever you are studying.  I enjoy reading the guy very much actually, and studied him under the Protestants, but he was trying to make a point and had a bit of a hyperbole problem.
“The Pope is a mere tormentor of conscience. The assembly of his greased and religious crew in praying was altogether like the croaking of frogs, which edified nothing at all.” ― Martin Luther, The Table Talk of Martin Luther

“The Church of Rome ... has become the most lawless den of thieves, the most shameless of all brothels, the very kingdom of sin, death and hell; so that not even antichrist ,if he were to come, could devise any addition to its wickedness.” 
― Martin Luther, On Christian Liberty

In addition, the  Evangelical Lutheran Church felt it had to issue a formal statement apologizing for some of his behavior and its affect on future society...particularly his anti-Semitism.
I wonder if they will feel they need to offer one regarding his Islamophobia :

"I have some pieces of Mohammed’s Koran which might be called in German a book of sermons or doctrines of the kind that we call pope’s decretals. When I have time, I must put it into German so that every man may see what a foul and shameful book it is. 
On the other hand, he praises and exalts himself highly and boasts that he has talked with God and the angels, and that since Christ’s office of prophet is now complete, it has been commanded to him to bring the world to his faith and if the world is not willing, to compel it or punish it with the sword; and there is much glorification of the sword in it. That is the chief doctrine of the Turkish faith in which all abominations, all errors, all devils are piled up in one heap.
Mohammed’s Koran thinks nothing of marriage, but permits everyone to take wives as he will. Therefore, it is customary among the Turks for one man to have ten or twenty wives and to desert or sell any of them that he will, when he will, so that in Turkey women are held immeasurably cheap and are despised; they are bought and sold like cattle. Although there may be some few who do not take advantage of this law, nevertheless this is the law and anyone can follow if he will. Such a way of living is not marriage and cannot be marriage, because none of them takes a wife or has a wife with the intention of staying with her forever, as though the two were one body, as God’s Word says, in Genesis 2:24, “The man shall cleave to his wife and they two be one body.”

Now we have heard above what kind of man the Turk is, viz., a destroyer, enemy, and blasphemer of our Lord Jesus Christ, who instead of the Gospel and faith, sets up his shameful Mohammed and all kinds of lies, ruins all temporal government and home-life, or marriage, and, since his warfare is nothing but murder and bloodshed, is a tool of the devil himself."

( Luther had some good points  regarding many things, but it has been argued he forwarded some rather nasty attitudes that  extreme fundamentalist Protestantism has found it hard to shake)

The whole point of quoting Luther was for the benefit of Andres, who identified himself as a Lutheran, and was making some rather silly points about my views stemming from Muhammad's alleged misunderstandings of Christian beliefs. Obviously I wouldn't use Luther's observations as an argument against a Catholic, although given his background, I do think his criticisms carry more weight than most. Certainly more than his views on Islam, which don't even have a passing resemblance to the truth.

Quote

One could also  argue that Luther could be forgiven for this diatribe since he misunderstood Islam, but before my daughters marriage, she was peppered  for a bit with videos by  Sunni Muslims " proving " her Shia fiancé was a " heretic", a " pagan", and " satanic". Your adolatry apparently extends to "worshipping Fatima as a goddess".. ( Ex-Shia will attest to all of this supposedly.)

I'm assuming all of these people are Muslim and we can take their word for it. Lol. 

Sadly for you, you won't catch me out on inconsistency, because I've been making similar arguments about the beliefs and actions of many Shias on this site for years. So yes, I do believe many Shias are in effect worshipping Fatima, or others. Although at least they don't have statues that they pray to, and most of their prayers to Fatima aren't quite as bad as some of the prayers to Mary that I've posted on here.

 

Quote

FYI...When we took a look at the videos just for giggles, the comments on them looked a lot like this thread...from Sunnis accusing the Shia of worshipping humans to other Sunnis saying you were okay...just that some of you went a little " overboard". 

 

PS...I studied under " Protestant theologians"... Never heard any of them accuse us of worshipping Mary.

Theologians come in all shapes and sizes. The trend in Christianity these days seems to be towards ecumenism, so both sides have toned down their rhetoric towards the other. A major example of this would be Vatican II, which marked a clear departure from Rome's previous position on Protestants. The historical positions are pretty clear though, and you will still find many traditionalist Protestants today accusing Catholics of worshipping Mary (which some of them call 'Mariolatry').

Edited September 11, 2016 by Haydar Husayn

[Haydar Husayn]

A statement of Pope Pius IX, in 1854, when establishing the new dogma of the immaculate conception of Mary:

Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard.

 

So, the Pope, while speaking infallibly, clearly tells Catholics to pray to Mary, and to turn to her for their needs, etc. There is no difference here between what he is saying about Mary, and what most religions say about God, i.e. that we should turn to him in our difficulties, and for our needs, etc.

Furthermore, look at the language that is used later. Mary is at the right hand of Jesus, who the Bible says is at the right hand of the Father. Jesus is her 'only begotten son', just as he is supposed to be the 'only begotten son' of God. Catholics are to ask for her intercession with her son, who is supposed to intercede with the Father. She is the 'Queen of Heaven' (while God is the King). But no, nothing divine here at all...

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Haydar Husayn
Spelling

[LeftCoastMom]

39 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

So the prayer the previous Pope made to Mary at Pompeii, and the offering of the rose, is 'intercession' in your view? What would the difference be between the prayer the Pope offered to Mary and the prayer someone in a polytheistic religion might offer to a minor deity?

 

The whole point of quoting Luther was for the benefit of Andres, who identified himself as a Lutheran, and was making some rather silly points about my views stemming from Muhammad's alleged misunderstandings of Christian beliefs. Obviously I wouldn't use Luther's observations as an argument against a Catholic, although given his background, I do think his criticisms carry more weight than most. Certainly more than his views on Islam, which don't even have a passing resemblance to the truth.

Sadly for you, you won't catch me out on inconsistency, because I've been making similar arguments about the beliefs and actions of many Shias on this site for years. So yes, I do believe many Shias are in effect worshipping Fatima, or others. Although at least they don't have statues that they pray to, and most of their prayers to Fatima aren't quite as bad as some of the prayers to Mary that I've posted on here.

 

Theologians come in all shapes and sizes. The trend in Christianity these days seems to be towards ecumenism, so both sides have toned down their rhetoric towards the other. A major example of this would be Vatican II, which marked a clear departure from Rome's previous position on Protestants. The historical positions are pretty clear though, and you will still find many traditionalist Protestants today accusing Catholics of worshipping Mary (which some of them call 'Mariolatry').

Well, yes, I  actually think it was intercession, but I never cared much for Pope Benedict anyway, much less the Saint he quoted who was mentally unstable,IMHO, a former seancer and Satanist who was prone to massive depressions and mood swings and never bothered to consummate his marriage. (Anyone can be a saint, but sometimes I honestly think we need to have a serious look at our canonization processes.)

As for flowers...my own daughter popped down to lay some blooms  at the Little mosaic BVM shrine in the Church garden when she found out she was pregnant. Mother-to-mother thing. She's hardly worshiping Mary. 

I  honestly don't care what some fundie Protestants think. Most of them know better.

Your issues with your fellow Shia's are your business, of course, but I can say with confidence that SG does not worship Fatima.

[LeftCoastMom]

34 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

A statement of Pope Pius IX, in 1854, when establishing the new dogma of the immaculate conception of Mary:

Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard.

 

So, the Pope, while speaking infallibly, clearly tells Catholics to pray to Mary, and to turn to her for their needs, etc. There is no difference here between what he is saying about Mary, and what most religions say about God, i.e. that we should turn to him in our difficulties, and for our needs, etc.

Furthermore, look at the language that is used later. Mary is at the right hand of Jesus, who the Bible says is at the right hand of the Father. Jesus is her 'only begotten son', just as he is supposed to be the 'only begotten son' of God. Carholics are to ask for her intercession with her son, who is supposed to intercede with the Father. She is the 'Queen of Heaven' (while God is the King). But no, nothing divine here at all...

 

432 The name "Jesus" signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation,so that "there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

The  hot debates within the church at the time about the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception aside, it does not make Mary divine or order Catholics to pray to her. It says they make ask for her intercession and she will present their petitions and, because she is so close to her son, we may confidently hope they will be received.

I myself don't do what would be considered " Marian" prayers hardly at all...but am considered a perfectly good Catholic.

Why don't you write the Vatican about your questions?

[Haydar Husayn]

1 minute ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Well, yes, I  actually think it was intercession, but I never cared much for Pope Benedict anyway, much less the Saint he quoted who was mentally unstable,IMHO, a former seancer and Satanist who was prone to massive depressions and mood swings and never bothered to consummate his marriage. (Anyone can be a saint, but sometimes I honestly think we need to have a serious look at our canonization processes.)

Isn't the the Pope supposed to be speaking infallibly when proclaiming someone a saint?

[LeftCoastMom]

^ supposedly, but the process does not begin with him. Like I said, I personally have issues with it and my remarks  regarding that are recorded at the Vatican. 

Edited September 11, 2016 by LeftCoastMom

[andres]

15 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

You don't seem to understand the difference between believing someone is a god, and treating them as if they are (i.e. praying to them, making offerings to them, etc).

Some Muslim "habits' we regard as sinful or bad moral, and Muslims think the same about Christians. Differences that that has been used to justify war. Even within Christianity. Lutherans and  Catholics had a 30 years long war in the 17th century and today Shias and Sunnies are busy fighting each other. I deeply understand that it may look as if Carholics treat Mary and other Saints as Gods when they kneel in front of a Statue, but I would have to look inside their heads to find out if they do. If I could, and in cases where a Catholic person really did, I would conclude that person was insane. All Christians know Saints are not Gods.

Threads sometime slide. It is not possible to reject the interpretation that the Quran believe that Mary is a Christian God. Other possible interpretations are that the Quran speaks about a heretic Christian or preislamic arab pagan religions. If the first option, there is indeed a conection to Christian dogma concerning Saints. Did you not at all have this in mind when starting this thread?

[Christianlady]

On 9/7/2016 at 0:12 PM, andres said:

I am a Lutheran myself and do not believe in Saints, so you have to ask a Catholic why they do.

Salam Andres,

It's easy why Catholics believe in saints. "Saint" is a word used in several English translations of the Bible - around 98 times for example in the KIng James Version.

Even Protestants believe in Saints; we just don't tend to pray to them.
 

Quote

 

I reacted agains unfair claims that Catholics worship Mary. This was the reason for pasting info from www.catholic.com

I find the link interesting, but it has not made me change my view that Saints do not exist. However there is no reason to accuse Catholics for lying about their relation with Saints. A nasty accusation.

 

I don't believe saying that it sounds like Catholics worship Mary when they pray to her to be a "nasty accusation" though if they think it is, I apologize. It is not my intention to nastily accuse anybody of anything.

I have been nastily accused of different things, which of course I don't appreciate, so again, I have no desire to nastily accuse people of things. As Jesus said, "Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Luke 6:31)

I understand however why some Protestants and some Muslims, including Hadar Husyan, thinks it sounds like worship: to pray to Mary. Since Catholics say no, I accept that they don't worship Mary.

Personally, I don't believe it's a "nasty accusation" when Muslims question if Christians are monotheists. I completely understand why many Muslims think Christians worship 3 gods, though I disagree.

While many Christians and I believe God is triune, it's understandable how some people think triune is three instead of one. However, I believe Christians worship one God; triune does not equal 3 gods. Similarly, a person does not equal three people when one separates a human into 1 body, 1 soul, and 1 spirit.

1x1x1 = 1 is how I see the Trinity, and how I see a human being one person even though I believe every human has a body, soul, and spirit.

Anyways, both Protestants and Catholics in the past have accused each other as being "heretics" which in my opinion is a "nasty accusation" but thank God, most Catholics and Protestants no longer call each other heretics, yeah?  We just agree to disagree in different areas, though we believe the same fundamental Truths about who Jesus Christ is and what He did and will do for us!!!

One of my Catholic friends, by the way, sings the "Ave Maria" very beautifully. (She is not the singer in this YouTube, but the following song is a beautiful prayer to Mary than even many Protestants (such as myself) appreciate hearing).

While I don't personally pray to Mary, I do very much respect her and appreciate her obedience to our Father in Heaven!!! God did choose Mary, a humble Jewish girl (possibly of the line of David and definitely with relatives who are Levites) to be the mother of Jesus Christ. God created Jesus Christ in Mary's womb without sexual reproduction taking place; Mary was a virgin.

Peace and God bless you

Edited September 12, 2016 by Christianlady

[Christianlady]

Off Topic, but "Pie Jesus" is one of my most favorite Catholic songs: brings me to tears each time I hear it. Beautiful!!!

 

Peace and God bless you

[Haydar Husayn]

12 hours ago, andres said:

Some Muslim "habits' we regard as sinful or bad moral, and Muslims think the same about Christians. Differences that that has been used to justify war. Even within Christianity. Lutherans and  Catholics had a 30 years long war in the 17th century and today Shias and Sunnies are busy fighting each other. I deeply understand that it may look as if Carholics treat Mary and other Saints as Gods when they kneel in front of a Statue, but I would have to look inside their heads to find out if they do. If I could, and in cases where a Catholic person really did, I would conclude that person was insane. All Christians know Saints are not Gods.

You are still missing the point. Nobody thinks that Saints are gods. However, prayer is a form of a worship, so if you pray to someone, you are worshiping them. You don't need to believe someone is god to worship them!

12 hours ago, andres said:

Threads sometime slide. It is not possible to reject the interpretation that the Quran believe that Mary is a Christian God. Other possible interpretations are that the Quran speaks about a heretic Christian or preislamic arab pagan religions. If the first option, there is indeed a conection to Christian dogma concerning Saints. Did you not at all have this in mind when starting this thread?

No, I did not have this in mind. The thread came out of a study of Catholicism, not Islam. As for the claims the Qur'an makes, I assume that it reflects the beliefs of the milieu it came out of. As such, I don't feel like I need to 'justify' the claims it makes.

I'm interested in how you determine whether a Christian denomination is 'heretic' though. As I understand it, you don't believe in the Trinity, but most of the 'orthodox' denominations would consider that heretical. From the point of view of Islam, they are all heretical, so there is no need to give preference to one over the other in terms of which one represents 'true' Christianity.

[Reza]

Love English, but Arabic and Latin would be more useful in this discussion. We are still struggling with words like "worship", "saint", "god", that don't completely reflect the nuances of the principles they are supposed to describe. 

[andres]

Hi Haydar

I understand that what Catholics do, to you looks as if they are worshipping Saints as Gods. God only knows what is inside their heads, and I think Catholics know that God would know if they worshipped Mary as a Godess. I have not much more to say. 

There will never be consensus on what is herasy and what is not among Christians. In my opinion Jehovas witnesses are, Mormons are not. Christians use the New Testament, not Mormons Book. But we interpret the Bible very different, and there can be sects that are so special that I would refuse to call them Christian. There may be some that dont regard me as Christian because I do not believe in trinity. But more likely because I regard the Bible as  a human product with human errors. What is true Christianity, only God knows. Had he wished to , he could have provided Moses with a complete infallible instruction book that could only be interpreted in one way, and not just only 10 commands. 

[Sumerian]

I'll stick to what my Religion says regarding worship and I define worship based on how my Religion defines it. And my Imams [as], whom I look up to as guides in Religious matters concerning theology and Law, have clearly stated in their hadiths that "Du'a" (translated to supplication in English) is worship.

 

Edited September 28, 2016 by E.L King

[andres]

3 hours ago, E.L King said:

I'll stick to what my Religion says regarding worship and I define worship based on how my Religion defines it. And my Imams [as], whom I look up to as guides in Religious matters concerning theology and Law, have clearly stated in their hadiths that "Du'a" (translated to supplication in English) is worship.

 

I do not think one shall blindly believe authorities. But that Muslims dislike some Christian habits and Christian dislike some Muslim is unavoidable. 

[Ali al-Abdullah]

12 hours ago, andres said:

I do not think one shall blindly believe authorities. But that Muslims dislike some Christian habits and Christian dislike some Muslim is unavoidable. 

Blindly authorities? Who are you talking about?

[andres]

3 hours ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Blindly authorities? Who are you talking about?

You, me and everybody else. All should be ready to question authorities. The Pope, Imam or Rabbi are not infallible, but humans just like you and me. A personal conviction that Catholics worship their Saints is OK, but dont forget that Catholics disagree. We Christians also have problem with some Muslim "habits".

[Ali al-Abdullah]

11 minutes ago, andres said:

You, me and everybody else. All should be ready to question authorities. The Pope, Imam or Rabbi are not infallible, but humans just like you and me. A personal conviction that Catholics worship their Saints is OK, but dont forget that Catholics disagree. We Christians also have problem with some Muslim "habits".

Our Imams (as) are infallible. But I think you're misunderstanding our Imams (as) with the Imam of a mosque.

[notme]

Asking whether Catholics worship Mary is like asking whether Shia worship the infallibles. Some do, denying it would require either ignorance or dishonesty, but it's not part of the religion. 

 

[andres]

1 hour ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Our Imams (as) are infallible. But I think you're misunderstanding our Imams (as) with the Imam of a mosque.

I was thinking about today living religious leaders. I know Shias believe theŕe also were 12 infallible ones, which to me means that they must be divinities. I am certain Shias say they are not, just like Catholics say Saints arent either.