Do Catholics Worship Mary?

[Haydar Husayn]

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Devotion Prayers

Opening Hymn
Mother Dearest, Mother Fairest
Mother dearest, Mother fairest,
Help of all who call on thee,
Virgin purest, brightest, rarest,
Help us, help, we cry to thee.

Mary help us, help we pray;
Mary help us, help, we pray;
Help us in all care and sorrow,
Mary help us, help we pray.

Lady, help in pain and sorrow,
Soothe those racked on bed of pain
May the golden light of morrow
Bring them health and joy again

Mary help us, help we pray;
Mary help us, help, we pray;
Help us in all care and sorrow,
Mary help us, help we pray.

(All kneel to recite the following prayers together if in a congregation or family)
   

Behold at thy feet, O Mother of Perpetual Help, a wretched sinner, who has recourse to thee, and confides in thee. O Mother of mercy, have pity on me. I hear thee called by all the refuge and the hope of sinners: be, then, my refuge and my hope. Assist me, for the love of Jesus Christ; stretch forth thy hand to a miserable fallen creature, who recommends himself to thee, and who devotes himself to thy service for ever. I bless and thank almighty God, Who in mercy has given me this confidence in thee, which I hold to be a pledge of my eternal salvation. It is true that in the past I have miserably fallen into sin, because I had not recourse to thee. I know that, with thy help, I shall conquer; I know, too, that thou wilt assist me, if only I recommend myself to thee. But I fear, dearest Mother, that in time of danger I may neglect to call on thee, and thus lose my soul. This grace, then, I ask of thee, and this I beg, with all the fervor of my soul, that, in all attacks of hell, I may ever have recourse to thee. O Mary, help me! O Mother of Perpetual Help! Never suffer me to lose my God! (3 Hail Marys)

...

 O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the goods which God grants to us miserable sinners, and for this reason, has He made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee; come, then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands, I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me; for, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; not even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because, by one prayer from thee, He will be appeased. But one thing I fear; that, in the hour of temptation, I may neglect to call on thee, and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me then the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace always to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.

Prayer of St. Alphonsus Liguori
    Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin and my Mother, Mary, to thee, Who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the Advocate, the Hope, and the Refuge of sinners, I have recourse today. I who am the most miserable of all. I render thee my most humble homage, O Great Queen, and I thank thee for all the graces thou has obtained for me until now, and in particular for having saved me from hell which I have so often deserved. I love thee, O most
Amiable Lady; and, for the love which I bear thee, I promise to serve thee always and do all in my power to make others also love thee. I place in thee all my hopes and I confide my salvation to thy care. Accept me for thy servant and receive me under thy mantle, O Mother of Mercy. And since thou art so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations, or, rather, obtain for me the strength to triumph over them until death. Of thee I ask a perfect love for Jesus Christ; through thee I hope to die a good death. O my Mother, by the love which thou bearest to God, I  eseech thee to help me at all times but especially at the last moment of my life. Leave me not, I beseech thee,  until thou seest me safe in heaven, blessing thee and singing thy mercies for all eternity. Amen, so I hope; so may it be.

 

http://www.dailycatholic.org/perpetua.htm

Sounds like worship to me. What do the Christians and Muslims here think?

Edited September 5, 2016 by Haydar Husayn

[Mohammadi_follower]

I just know that she considers her as "the mother of god" .

[Lighting]

Obviously this is not worshiping the mother Mary (as), this is a prayer to the almighty God. Read carefully.

 And God the almighty allows certain holy people to pray for other people. That is alone is not given to anyone. In Islam this is called "shafaea" meaning you request someone holy and close to God to pray for you and if (this is a big if), if God permits they will pray for you and God may grant their wishes. For example Shiats request the prophets, emams, etc to pray for them. Same again.

 But to receive a prayer from a holy person, that alone is a gift from the God that is not given to everyone.

 Hope this is cleared up the confusion, no Christians only worship the God. The creator. They have branches like other religions. 

 

 

[notme]

No, Catholics don't worship Mary. They do honor her and consider her to be sinless. Catholics supplicate to Mary for intercession, much like how we Shia ask for intercession through our imams. The belief is similar to ours - intercession is only beneficial if God wills. 

I was raised Catholic. This is basic stuff that they teach little children in catechism (Catholic version of hadith) class.

[andres]

10 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

http://www.dailycatholic.org/perpetua.htm

Sounds like worship to me. What do the Christians and Muslims here think?

Catholics definitely would say they do not worship Mary as a deity. As a Lutheran I also say they dont, thou I find the idea of Saints unbiblical. As I understand the Quran, Muhammed say Christian do worship Mary. I can actually understand if Muslims or others may have this impression.

 

[Abu Nur]

6 hours ago, andres said:

Catholics definitely would say they do not worship Mary as a deity. As a Lutheran I also say they dont, thou I find the idea of Saints unbiblical. As I understand the Quran, Muhammed say Christian do worship Mary. I can actually understand if Muslims or others may have this impression.

 

Even if the Catholics deny worshiping her, it does not necessary mean they do not worship her.

[Abu Nur]

15 hours ago, notme said:

No, Catholics don't worship Mary. They do honor her and consider her to be sinless. Catholics supplicate to Mary for intercession, much like how we Shia ask for intercession through our imams. The belief is similar to ours - intercession is only beneficial if God wills. 

I was raised Catholic. This is basic stuff that they teach little children in catechism (Catholic version of hadith) class.

It is not even intercession from Islamic viewpoint, it is beyond of it. When the prayer says ". I place in thee all my hopes and I confide my salvation to thy care. " is good example how it does contradict Islamic viewpoint on believing that we should only place our hopes to One God and the salvation comes only from One God.

[andres]

3 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Even if the Catholics deny worshiping her, it does not necessary mean they do not worship her.

Like saying: even if Muslims deny worshiping Muhammed this does not necessarily mean they dont worship him.

Why question that Catholics dont? Could the reason be that if they dont, the Quran was mistaken? 

[notme]

6 minutes ago, andres said:

Why question that Catholics dont? Could the reason be that if they dont, the Quran was mistaken? 

Actually there was a sect of Christianity, now virtually extinct, in which they did worship Mary as a goddess. It was prevalent in the middle east until Islam spread. Look it up.

 

[Abu Nur]

12 minutes ago, andres said:

Like saying: even if Muslims deny worshiping Muhammed this does not necessarily mean they dont worship him.

Exactly and visa versa. The point is that the argument of "definitely would say" is weak for seeking the truth, specially in this matter.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Dhulfikar

[notme]

8 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

When the prayer says ". I place in thee all my hopes and I confide my salvation to thy care. " 

I'm not familiar with this prayer. What is it from? The one I know goes like this: "Hail, Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of god, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

Sounds like a request for intercession to me. 

[Abu Nur]

6 minutes ago, notme said:

I'm not familiar with this prayer. What is it from? The one I know goes like this: "Hail, Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of god, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

Sounds like a request for intercession to me. 

It's from the original post. Maybe the prayers in OP link are man made that contradict catholic beliefs, thus the prayers are not valid? What is the history of these prayers, when they existed?

Edited September 6, 2016 by Dhulfikar

[notme]

1 minute ago, Dhulfikar said:

It's from the original post. 

Heh, sorry I wasn't paying attention. 

This is the first time I've seen this prayer. It's not something they teach in Catholic school, must be a specialty item. At Catholic school we were taught to not worship Mary but pray to her as an intercessor, same as the other saints but Mary is special status due to her being without sin. 

[andres]

36 minutes ago, notme said:

Actually there was a sect of Christianity, now virtually extinct, in which they did worship Mary as a goddess. It was prevalent in the middle east until Islam spread. Look it up.

 

Cant find, please give the link.

[Christianlady]

17 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

http://www.dailycatholic.org/perpetua.htm

Sounds like worship to me.

Salam Haydar Husayn,

It sounds like worship to many Protestant Christians too.

Quote

What do the Christians and Muslims here think?

Protestant Christians disagree with our Catholic brothers and sisters concerning praying to Mary and to other people.

Most Protestant Christians do not pray to Mary, since Mary is not God. Most Protestant Christians pray to Our Father In Heaven, as Jesus Christ commanded his followers to do, and to Jesus, as some of Jesus' disciples showed us to do.

There is a little debate in a few Protestant Christian circles whether we should only pray to the Father and not to Jesus. However, I believe it's fine to pray to Jesus too, like Stephen, the first martyr, prayed to Jesus: 

While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep. - Acts 7:59-60 (NIV)

There is no evidence in the Bible that Jesus' apostles and disciples prayed to Mary. That's one reason why many Protestant Christians do not pray to her. However, Protestant Christians do greatly respect Mary, the virgin mother of Jesus Christ who also followed him.  

Peace and God bless you

 

[notme]

1 hour ago, andres said:

Cant find, please give the link.

Can't find much about them, I only have read of their existence. They were called Collyridians, and were written about by Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis in his work Panarion, which I've not read. 

I found a Wikipedia article. You can use Google as well as I can if you want to know more.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

 

[Haydar Husayn]

19 hours ago, notme said:

No, Catholics don't worship Mary. They do honor her and consider her to be sinless. Catholics supplicate to Mary for intercession, much like how we Shia ask for intercession through our imams. The belief is similar to ours - intercession is only beneficial if God wills. 

I was raised Catholic. This is basic stuff that they teach little children in catechism (Catholic version of hadith) class.

What you are in essence saying is that Catholics do not consider that they worship Mary, but that doesn't mean that they don't in fact worship her. If your actions are consistent with what is generally considered worship, it doesn't become something else just because you refuse to call it that. If I take something from someone without permission it doesn't become borrowing just because I refuse to admit that it's theft.

Now, since some people may be wondering if this is just some weird prayer from the fringes of Catholicism, here are the credentials of the author of part of what I quoted, St Alphonus Marie Liguori:

Quote

He was canonized in 1839 by Pope Gregory XVIand proclaimed a Doctor of the Church by Pope Pius IX in 1871. One of the most widely read Catholic authors, Alphonsus Liguori is the patron saint of confessors.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonsus_Maria_de'_Liguori

So hardly your average Joe.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Haydar Husayn

[andres]

3 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

What you are in essence saying is that Catholics do not consider that they worship Mary, but that doesn't mean that they don't in fact worship her. 

Again a useless argument. So even if all Muslims that say they do not worship Muhammed, this is not necessarily so? 

Of course both Muslims and Christians know what they wosrhip. Dont be silly.

[Haydar Husayn]

5 minutes ago, andres said:

Again a useless argument. So even if all Muslims that say they do not worship Muhammed, this is not necessarily so? 

Of course both Muslims and Christians know what they wosrhip. Dont be silly.

Of course it's not necessarily so just because Muslims say it. If it turned out that the actions of Muslims indicated that they were worshipping Muhammad (s) then a case could be made.

Let's use a different example. Would you need someone to admit to being a racist in order to judge that he was a racist?

[andres]

5 hours ago, notme said:

Can't find much about them, I only have read of their existence. They were called Collyridians, and were written about by Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis in his work Panarion, which I've not read. 

I found a Wikipedia article. You can use Google as well as I can if you want to know more.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

 

Thanks for the link. Never heard of this little group but  this could be what Muhammed had heard about. But if it is, the Quran is critizising a very local movement maybe extinct centuries before Muhammed was born. This could also explain why he believed that trinity was Mary, Jesus and the holy Ghost. Still there is no criticism against the powerful Christian Church and the Bible and it strengthens my impression that Muhammed had little knowledge of the content of the Bible and Christian theology of the 6th century.

[andres]

5 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Of course it's not necessarily so just because Muslims say it. If it turned out that the actions of Muslims indicated that they were worshipping Muhammad (s) then a case could be made.

Let's use a different example. Would you need someone to admit to being a racist in order to judge that he was a racist?

A person that you regard as a racist, is not necessarily a person that I regard as a racist. If a person honestly say he is a racist, why should we not believe him? Hitler was an obvious racist, proud to belong to the superior Arian race. 

Why should we not believe a Muslim or a Catholic when they say they only worship God (+Jesus for Catholics)

The ony reason that a Muslim must question what Catholics say, is that if Catholics tell the truth, the Quran has made a misjudgement. 

[Haydar Husayn]

7 hours ago, andres said:

A person that you regard as a racist, is not necessarily a person that I regard as a racist. If a person honestly say he is a racist, why should we not believe him? Hitler was an obvious racist, proud to belong to the superior Arian race. 

Why should we not believe a Muslim or a Catholic when they say they only worship God (+Jesus for Catholics)

The ony reason that a Muslim must question what Catholics say, is that if Catholics tell the truth, the Quran has made a misjudgement. 

No, it has nothing to do with what the Qur'an says. Many Protestants (of the traditional kind, not the wishy-washy liberal kind that seem to be increasing in number) would also say that Catholics worship Mary. Clearly they aren't saying that because of what's in the Qur'an. The reason people say it is because their actions are consistent with what is generally regarded as worship.

As for the racism example, I think you are just arguing for the sake of it here. Clearly if someone make what you consider to be racist comments, then you don't need them to accept that they are racist for it to be the case. Apart from people being dishonest, they may simply be in denial. That's how I see many Catholics. They are in denial about the fact that they are worshipping Mary.

[Haydar Husayn]

7 hours ago, andres said:

This could also explain why he believed that trinity was Mary, Jesus and the holy Ghost. Still there is no criticism against the powerful Christian Church and the Bible and it strengthens my impression that Muhammed had little knowledge of the content of the Bible and Christian theology of the 6th century.

Where in the Qur'an does it say that the trinity is made up of Mary, Jesus and the Holy Ghost?

As for him not having detailed knowledge of Christianity, while that may or may not be true (it's sort of irrelevant either way since we don't believe he authored the Qur'an), it's funny that many Christians see the denial of the crucifixion as very significant. So for a supposed fraud who didn't understand what he was talking about, it's a little strange that he would apparently understand how central the cross is to Christian theology (after all, there is no obvious reason to deny it).

The Qur'an also shows an in depth knowledge of the Biblical stories of Prophets, although the narrative does differ at certain points, in ways that often seem more logical than in the Bible.

[andres]

1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

No, it has nothing to do with what the Qur'an says. Many Protestants (of the traditional kind, not the wishy-washy liberal kind that seem to be increasing in number) would also say that Catholics worship Mary. Clearly they aren't saying that because of what's in the Qur'an. The reason people say it is because their actions are consistent with what is generally regarded as worship.

As for the racism example, I think you are just arguing for the sake of it here. Clearly if someone make what you consider to be racist comments, then you don't need them to accept that they are racist for it to be the case. Apart from people being dishonest, they may simply be in denial. That's how I see many Catholics. They are in denial about the fact that they are worshipping Mary.

Catholics believe Mary is already in heaven being a Saint among very many other Saints, but probably the most honored. They are not worshipped as Gods. Persons that worship Saints as Gods are not Catholic. Period. It may seem so to non catholics, but only ignorants believe they do. You say "many Catholics are in denial of the fact that they worship Mary". Why not all of them? If only a part, this would be a great problem within the Church. Are there any such reports? 

 

 

 

[andres]

2 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Where in the Qur'an does it say that the trinity is made up of Mary, Jesus and the Holy Ghost?

In my Quran in 5:116. I am sure you knew I would refer to this. Who would claime that Jesus had said this if not Christians? Muhammed  regarded Christianity as a polotheistic religion, and here he mentions Mary and Jesus being worshipped as Gods. If he had the Christian Church in mind, he was right about Jesus, but wrong about Mary. If I am not mistaken Muhammed somewhere says something like "dont say three", which indicats he knew about trinity. But of course, in 5:116 maybe he had not trinity in mind, but a small isolated sect that existed in Mekka, maybe even extinct centuries before Muhammed was born. However in my view , a protest against a mighty Christian polytheistic  Churchs trinity 

[andres]

2 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

The Qur'an also shows an in depth knowledge of the Biblical stories of Prophets, although the narrative does differ at certain points, in ways that often seem more logical than in the Bible.

If I retell a long mythical story that I heard someone else recite, my story would differ slightly. And yes, retold stories can be more or less logical than the original.

But of course, if Muhammeds revelation is correctly written down, and he remembered exactly what the Angel said, and the Angel got the message from God, the stories in the Quran are the correct ones.

Edited September 7, 2016 by andres

[andres]

from: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/saint-worship

"................Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God........"

Edited September 7, 2016 by andres

[Christianlady]

3 hours ago, andres said:

from: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/saint-worship

"................Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions.

Salam Andres,

it is not hostility to disagree with people's beliefs that are different than one's own. I have Catholic friends who I consider my sisters and brothers in Christ, and they consider me a sister in Christ. My former landlady is a very strong Catholic lady who brought her priest over once to pray for me when I was sick. I'm very grateful. My sister works for a Catholic hospital and gets along wonderfully with Catholics who know she is a Protestant.

Many Non-Catholics are not hostile to either Catholics or the church, though we disagree with Catholic doctrines. Similarly, many Catholics are not hostile to Non-Catholics. Both groups have learned to live peacefully and lovingly with each other, despite our disagreements.

Quote

They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God........"

Again, praying prayers that praise Mary to Mary sounds like worship to many Non-Catholics. Of course Catholics are free to disagree with Non-Catholics, and Non-Catholics are free to disagree with Catholics.

Out of curiosity, is there anywhere in the Bible where praying to Mary or to a saint is encouraged? Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

[andres]

1 hour ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Andres,

it is not hostility to disagree with people's beliefs that are different than one's own. I have Catholic friends who I consider my sisters and brothers in Christ, and they consider me a sister in Christ. My former landlady is a very strong Catholic lady who brought her priest over once to pray for me when I was sick. I'm very grateful. My sister works for a Catholic hospital and gets along wonderfully with Catholics who know she is a Protestant.

Many Non-Catholics are not hostile to either Catholics or the church, though we disagree with Catholic doctrines. Similarly, many Catholics are not hostile to Non-Catholics. Both groups have learned to live peacefully and lovingly with each other, despite our disagreements.

Again, praying prayers that praise Mary to Mary sounds like worship to many Non-Catholics. Of course Catholics are free to disagree with Non-Catholics, and Non-Catholics are free to disagree with Catholics.

Out of curiosity, is there anywhere in the Bible where praying to Mary or to a saint is encouraged? Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

I am a Lutheran myself and do not believe in Saints, so you have to ask a Catholic why they do. I reacted agains unfair claims that Catholics worship Mary. This was the reason for pasting info from www.catholic.com

I find the link interesting, but it has not made me change my view that Saints do not exist. However there is no reason to accuse Catholics for lying about their relation with Saints. A nasty accusation.

 

[Haydar Husayn]

10 hours ago, andres said:

from: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/saint-worship

"................Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God........"

And functionally what is the difference between their 'latria' of God, and their 'hyperdulia' of Mary? Because I don't see much. Most, if not all, of the functions of Jesus (i.e. God, in Trinitarian Christianity) have been given to Mary.

[Haydar Husayn]

7 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Andres,

it is not hostility to disagree with people's beliefs that are different than one's own. I have Catholic friends who I consider my sisters and brothers in Christ, and they consider me a sister in Christ. My former landlady is a very strong Catholic lady who brought her priest over once to pray for me when I was sick. I'm very grateful. My sister works for a Catholic hospital and gets along wonderfully with Catholics who know she is a Protestant.

How do you respond to those who quote what Paul says in Galatians 1?

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

 

Do you think the Catholic Church preaches the same Gospel as Paul?

[Haydar Husayn]

13 hours ago, andres said:

Catholics believe Mary is already in heaven being a Saint among very many other Saints, but probably the most honored. They are not worshipped as Gods. Persons that worship Saints as Gods are not Catholic. Period. It may seem so to non catholics, but only ignorants believe they do.

You either don't know what you are talking about, or are lying. Mary is not simply one among very many, and 'probably' the most honored. Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Church, Mediatrix, Co-Redemptrix (with Christ), immaculately conceived, assumed into Heaven... Yeah, she really sounds like a run-of-the-mill Saint...

 

Quote

You say "many Catholics are in denial of the fact that they worship Mary". Why not all of them? If only a part, this would be a great problem within the Church. Are there any such reports? 

I said many because clearly not all Catholics necessarily worship Mary.

[Haydar Husayn]

13 hours ago, andres said:

In my Quran in 5:116. I am sure you knew I would refer to this. Who would claime that Jesus had said this if not Christians? Muhammed  regarded Christianity as a polotheistic religion, and here he mentions Mary and Jesus being worshipped as Gods. If he had the Christian Church in mind, he was right about Jesus, but wrong about Mary. If I am not mistaken Muhammed somewhere says something like "dont say three", which indicats he knew about trinity. But of course, in 5:116 maybe he had not trinity in mind, but a small isolated sect that existed in Mekka, maybe even extinct centuries before Muhammed was born. However in my view , a protest against a mighty Christian polytheistic  Churchs trinity 

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. [5:116]

Please tell me where you are getting a reference to the Trinity out of this. The fact that the Qur'an claims that some people worship Mary, and elsewhere warns against the concept of the Trinity, don't imply that Mary was thought to be part of that Trinity.

[andres]

11 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities ?

...............

Please tell me where you are getting a reference to the Trinity out of this. The fact that the Qur'an claims that some people worship Mary, and elsewhere warns against the concept of the Trinity, don't imply that Mary was thought to be part of that Trinity.

Why will Allah ask Jesus this question? Someone must have claimed Jesus said so. It is not the Bible. Christians, Muslims and Jews do not say so either. So who was it? Or did Muhammed believe that this was Christian belief? 

Of course I cannot know for certain, but I find it most likely that the Quran here critisises Christianity. Why spend time critisising a small, maybe already at that time extinct sect, somewhere in the Arabian peninsular desert?

[andres]

12 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

You either don't know what you are talking about, or are lying. Mary is not simply one among very many, and 'probably' the most honored. Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Church, Mediatrix, Co-Redemptrix (with Christ), immaculately conceived, assumed into Heaven... Yeah, she really sounds like a run-of-the-mill Saint...

 

I said many because clearly not all Catholics necessarily worship Mary.

According to www.catholic.org , Mary is a Saint of "higher status" than others, but still not a deity. I feel convinced that the site is an official catholic site, so I do not question this belief is true Catholic.

I am Lutheran, never having attended Catholic mass or spoken to a Catholic priest. I do not share this belief, but it is my impression that all Catholics share this belief. Dont trust me as an authority.