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submitter71

Ruling on Disbelieving in an Imam

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I would like to start off by thanking the Shiachat community for their sincerity. The anonymous nature of the internet is sometimes a great luxury. It is questions like these that I do not think that I would get a sincere response to in real life. 

 

My question to my Shia siblings: What is the ruling on one that does not believe in the Imams? 

 

Before responding, I want you to remember that I do not want your personal opinion, but I want proper evidences.

 

It is narrated in Al Kafi volume 1 p. 355 that "O Muhammad (bin Muslim), is the case of a person from this ’Umma (nation) who lives without an Imam (Leader) from Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, the Imam whose Divine Authority is clearly supported with evidence and who is just in his dealings. A person without such Imam is lost and confused and if he dies in such condition, his death is like dying in disbelief and hypocrisy."

Al Kafi can be downloaded here https://archive.org/details/alkafi_201601

Majlisi graded this hadith as authentic.

 

The greatest Shia scholars of all time also expressed these beliefs.

 

Al Sadooq (al iitiqad 111) said: "Our belief concerning anyone who rejects the Imamate of Ameer Al Mumineen and the Imams after him are in the status of those that rejected the prophethood of the prophets. We believe that whoever accepts Ameer Al Mumineen and rejected one of the Imams after him, that he is in the position of those that accepted the prophets but rejected the prophethood of Muhamad salalahu alaihi wa alih." 

 

Al Tusi (talkhees al shafi volume 4 page 131) said: "Rejecting Imama is Kufr like rejecting prophethood, and ignorance of them is the same thing." 

 

Al Mufeed in his Ifsah comments on a narration by saying, "This is a clear proof that whoever doesn't know the Imam is out of the fold of Islam."

 

I am hoping that those that reject this will bring proof instead of providing their opinions without backing it up. I also hope that sincere Shias that believe in the above will come forward and admit that this is their belief. Please do not worry about my feelings. It is more important to me that everyone is sincere in these discussions. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Don't you Sunnis believe its obligatory to obey the Caliph no matter what?

 

No brother, we do not. If you want to discuss the details of the Sunni view about obeying the caliphs please open another thread.

I do not want the topic of this thread to be changed. 

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Well it is pretty clear, disbeliever in ONE Imam is kaafir for shias. 

There are lots of quotes on this from shia known scholars. 

Sadiq Shirazi said:

1551482_10202824205063988_188737592_n.jpg

As for all the different Shiite groups, except for the Twelvers, then their disbelief has been proven according to many of  our text and many of our classical narrations state that whosoever rejects a single Imam is like the one who says Allah is one of three [trinity].And Al-Kishi reported with a chain [of transmission], on the authority of Ibn Abi Omayr [broken chain] who said: ‘I asked Muhammad Ibn Ali Al-Ridha (AS) about the following verse:

[Some] faces, that Day, will be humbled [hard] and exhausted. Working [hard] and exhausted. [Surah Al-Ghashiyah, Verse 2-3]

He [Muhammad Al-Jawad son of Al-Ridha] said: ‘This verse was revealed about the Nawasib [Sunnis], Zaydi [Shiites] and Waqifi [Sevener Shiites] […]’

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Just now, submitter71 said:

 

 

No brother, we do not. If you want to discuss the details of the Sunni view about obeying the caliphs please open another thread.

I do not want the topic of this thread to be changed. 

Im just saying. When you come forth with this first look at your own traditions. And yes we believe that disobeying the Imams (as) is not permissible because they are infallible (ma‘sūm). On the contrary, you Sunnis obey the Caliph no matter how corrupt they are.

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There is a link that full with these kind of quotations.

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2013_05_01_archive.html

Baqir Majlisi declared in Biharul Anwar, Volume 23 Page 290 (Published in Beirut): "Note that the terms shirk (polytheism) and kufr (disbelief) apply to one who does not believe in the Imamah of Ali (as) or his progeny, and gives precedence to others over them, proving that they are kuffar destined to reside in hell."

Allama Abdullah al Mamqani wrote in Tanqihul Maqal (Major shia rijal book), Volume 1 Page 208 (published in Najaf): ": "The conclusion that is reached from the ahadith is that the ruling of kafir (disbeliever) and mushrik (polytheist) would apply in the hereafter upon anyone who is not a Shia Ithna Ash'ari (i.e. Twelver Shia)."

 

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If you go by the details, then everybody who believes Allah swt is different from his Sifat, is also a Mushrik and out of fold of Islam. Meaning anybody who believes that Allah and Rahman are not the same entity, then that person is Mushrik.

Among Muslims, many who followed other than the Imams of Ahlulbayt did believe in such differentiation and hence by definition are Mushrik.

But then there is evidence that our Aimah AS and ulema do not call anyone Mushrik based on the urf. Meaning if one professes to believe in God is considered monotheist. Hence we call all Jews and Christians monotheist even though their core belief in God is mixed with adulteration of creations and creator.  

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22 hours ago, Irfani313 said:

If you go by the details, then everybody who believes Allah swt is different from his Sifat, is also a Mushrik and out of fold of Islam. Meaning anybody who believes that Allah and Rahman are not the same entity, then that person is Mushrik.

Among Muslims, many who followed other than the Imams of Ahlulbayt did believe in such differentiation and hence by definition are Mushrik.

But then there is evidence that our Aimah AS and ulema do not call anyone Mushrik based on the urf. Meaning if one professes to believe in God is considered monotheist. Hence we call all Jews and Christians monotheist even though their core belief in God is mixed with adulteration of creations and creator.  

The op provides statements with evidences & even a link, can you please do the same?

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Baqir Majlisi wrote in his book:

يطلق على من أخل بشي‏ء من العقائد الإيمانية و إن لم يكن ضروريا لدين‏

الإسلام كالإمامة، و المشهور أنهم في الآخرة بحكم الكفار و هم مخلدون في النار كالمخالفين و سائر فرق الشيعة سوى الإمامية، و قد دلت عليه أخبار كثيرة أوردناها في كتابنا الكبير….

و أما الأحكام الدنيوية أيضا كالطهارة و التناكح و التوارث فالمشهور أنهم في جميع ذلك بحكم المسلمين، و ذهب السيد المرتضى رضي الله عنه و جماعة إلى أنهم في الأمور الدنيوية أيضا بحكم الكفار، و الذي يظهر من بعض الأخبار أنهم واقعا في جميع الأحكام بحكم الكفار لكن الله تعالى لما علم أن للمخالفين دولة و غلبة على الشيعة و لا بد لهم من معاشرتهم رخص لهم في جميع ذلك و أجرى على المخالفين في زمان الهدنة و التقية أحكام المسلمين و في زمن القائم عليه السلام لا فرق بينهم و بين الكفار، و به يمكن الجمع بين الأخبار

Whoever does not believe in something required for eeman (true belief), although not essential for Islam (i.e. to be a mere Muslim) such as Imamah, so it is well known that they are considered kuffar (disbelievers) in the akhirah and would reside in hellfire like the opponents(non Shias) and all the sub sects of Shiaism other than the Imamis (i.e. Twelver Shias). This has been proven by extensive ahadith which we have recorded in our voluminous book….And as for the religious rulings to be applied to them in dunya (i.e. in this world, not the hereafter), such as in issues of taharah (ritual purity), nikah (marriage) and inheritance, so it is popular that they would be treated as Muslims in all those issues, while Sharif al Murtada and a group of scholars adopted the view that they should be treated as kuffar in dunya also. And it does appear from some of the ahadith that they should truly be treated as kuffar in all Islamic affairs, but however, since Allah (swt) knew that the opponents(non Shias) would rule and prevail over the Shias and therefore the Shias would have no choice but to socialize with them, thus He (swt) made a concession for the Shias on this and established the application of Islamic laws upon the opponents(non Shias) during the period of truce and taqiyya. But when Imam Mahdi (as) appears, there would be no difference between the opponents(non Shias) and the kuffar. This way it is possible to reconcile between the ahadith (i.e. to reconcile those ahadith which declare opponents(non shias) to be Muslims and those which declare them kuffar. (Miratul Uqul by Majlisi, Volume 11, Page 190).

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Look sunnis and wahhabis have considered twelver shias kaffir for a long time so I don't know what you guys are trying to pull , in the end Allah swt is the judge it is up to him to send a twelver or a non twelver Muslim , Christian or jew or anybody for that matter to heaven or hell , I cannot and will not call any muslim kafir for that is not my place to judge , and also since those more learned then me have advised me the same , and my marja sayed ali khamenei has issued a fatwa against calling any muslim a kaffir , wsalam

Edited by yolanda313786

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6 hours ago, submitter71 said:

I would like to start off by thanking the Shiachat community for their sincerity. The anonymous nature of the internet is sometimes a great luxury. It is questions like these that I do not think that I would get a sincere response to in real life. 

 

My question to my Shia siblings: What is the ruling on one that does not believe in the Imams? 

 

Before responding, I want you to remember that I do not want your personal opinion, but I want proper evidences.

 

It is narrated in Al Kafi volume 1 p. 355 that "O Muhammad (bin Muslim), is the case of a person from this ’Umma (nation) who lives without an Imam (Leader) from Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, the Imam whose Divine Authority is clearly supported with evidence and who is just in his dealings. A person without such Imam is lost and confused and if he dies in such condition, his death is like dying in disbelief and hypocrisy."

Al Kafi can be downloaded here https://archive.org/details/alkafi_201601

Majlisi graded this hadith as authentic.

 

The greatest Shia scholars of all time also expressed these beliefs.

 

Al Sadooq (al iitiqad 111) said: "Our belief concerning anyone who rejects the Imamate of Ameer Al Mumineen and the Imams after him are in the status of those that rejected the prophethood of the prophets. We believe that whoever accepts Ameer Al Mumineen and rejected one of the Imams after him, that he is in the position of those that accepted the prophets but rejected the prophethood of Muhamad salalahu alaihi wa alih." 

 

Al Tusi (talkhees al shafi volume 4 page 131) said: "Rejecting Imama is Kufr like rejecting prophethood, and ignorance of them is the same thing." 

 

Al Mufeed in his Ifsah comments on a narration by saying, "This is a clear proof that whoever doesn't know the Imam is out of the fold of Islam."

 

I am hoping that those that reject this will bring proof instead of providing their opinions without backing it up. I also hope that sincere Shias that believe in the above will come forward and admit that this is their belief. Please do not worry about my feelings. It is more important to me that everyone is sincere in these discussions. 

 

What you're looking for, first answer that, playing an another game just like many sunnies or getting the truth so you can be a shia if it was the truth?

Make it clear for me, also what's your primary language?

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5 minutes ago, Haimi said:

Trust me at least you're not my brother, not yet.

There you go, that's the Takfiri mentality right there. I call him brother and he says No.

How about you answer the man's question clearly instead of a useless post? Why would you address my post and ignore the main post?

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1 minute ago, Ali Riza said:

There you go, that's the Takfiri mentality right there. I call him brother and he says No.

How about you answer the man's question clearly instead of a useless post? Why would you address my post and ignore the main post?

There we go, you just called me kafir, how you can call me brother without my permission? Did I accept that?

Edited by Haimi

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23 hours ago, yolanda313786 said:

Look sunnis and wahhabis have considered twelver shias kaffir for a long time so I don't know what you guys are trying to pull , in the end Allah swt is the judge it is up to him to send a twelver or a non twelver Muslim , Christian or jew or anybody for that matter to heaven or hell , I cannot and will not call any muslim kafir for that is not my place to judge , and also since those more learned then me have advised me the same , and my marja sayed ali khamenei has issued a fatwa against calling any muslim a kaffir , wsalam

actually no, majority of sunni don't even know sunni-shia issue until recent political conflicts let alone consider twelver shia as kuffar. I myself only realise that sunni-shia differences are more than just furu' 10 years ago, before then i thought shia is like a hanafi, maliki, hambali. If khamenei has such fatwa then good, but honestly, he is not to be compared to greater shia scholars such as al kulayni, sadooq, mufeed, tusi etc

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7 hours ago, submitter71 said:

 Before responding, I want you to remember that I do not want your personal opinion, but I want proper evidences.

 

عالم السنی الکبیر بيضاوي قاضي القضات

Look what he said about اقامه ، تسميه و بسم الله in pray = فروع الدین

then immediately after that he says: 

و لا كفر و لا بدعة في مخالفتهما بخلاف الامامة

المنهاج على منهاج الوصول إلى علم الأصول للبيضاوي ص75

امام سبكي

بخلاف الإمامة فإنها من الأصول ومخالفتها بدعة ومؤثرة في الفتن.

الإبهاج ،ج 2، ص 296

بدخشي من الاحناف

بخلاف الإمامة فإنها من الأصول ومخالفتها يقتضي الي الامرين.

مناقب الرسول بدخشي ج 2، ص226

فخرالدين جاوردي

و اجاب عنه به أن اولين اعني الاقامة‌ و التسمية لا نسلم عنهما مما تواتر دوائي علي نقلي هما لان أن هما من الفروع بخلاف نصي الذي يدل علي (رضي الله عنه)امامة علي فأن في مخالفته بدعة العظیمة .

السراج الوهاج في شرح المنهاج ج2،ص730

شمس الدين اصفهاني

بخلاف الامامة فانها من الاصول الدين و مخافتها بدعة فلو كان نص علي الامامة علي لم نتساهل فيه و نقله نقلاً متواتراً.

شرح المنهاج للبيضاوي ج2،ص535

دكتر محمد عبد النور

the professor of al-az'har university:

بان الاقامة و تسمية الصلاة لم تتوفر الدواعي علِي نقلها لكونها من الاحكام الفرعية و المخطئ فيها ليس بكافر و لا مبتدع

بخلاف الامامة فأنها من اصول الدين و المخالفة فيها بدعة و الفتنة 

الصول الفقه ج3، ص 107

So yes they are shia not Sunni right? Or they are Sunni but they did mistakes? Only al-mofti is saying truths? Since the biggest mofti in Saudi says: المفتي يقوم مقام النبي؛

عبد القاهر بغدادي کان فی عصر الشیخ المفید

He says about Osol-addin:

اتفق جمهور اهل السنة والجماعة على اصول من اركان الدين كل ركن منها يجب على كل عاقل بالغ معرفة حقيقته ولكل ركن منها شعب وفي شعبها مسائل اتفق اهل السنة فيها على قول واحد وضللوا من خالفهم فيها

واول الاركان التى رأوها من الفرق بين الفرق وبيان الفرقة الناجية ،اصول الدين اثبات الحقائق والعلوم على الخصوص والعموم

والركن الثانى هو العلم بحدوث العالم في اقسامه من اعراضه واجسامه

والركن الثالث فى معرفة صانع العالم وصفات ذاته

 والركن الرابع في معرفة صفاته الازلية

والركن الخامس في معرفة اسمائه واوصافه

والركن السادس في معرفة عدله وحكمته

والركن السابع في معرفة رسله وانبيائه

والركن الثامن في معرفة معجزات الانبياء وكرامات الاولياء

 والركن التاسع في معرفة ما أجمعت الامة عليه من اركان شريعة الاسلام

والركن العاشر في معرفة احكام الامر والنهى والتكليف

والركن الحادى عشر في معرفة الخلافة والامامة وشروط الزعامة

والركن الثالث عشر كذا في احكام الايمان والاسلام في الجملة

والركن الرابع عشر في معرفة احكام الاولياء ومراتب الأئمة الاتقياء

 والركن الخامس عشر في معرفة احكام الاعداء من الكفرة واهل الاهواء

الفرق بين الفرق ، ج 1 ، ص 309

And now, for thousands of these in my library searches.

 

 

 

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It's very evident by the replies here who the real takfiris are . Why is it that difficult to just admitt whoever doesn't believe in of the imams is a kafir ? 

 

The problem is that our Shia friends know very well how it would damage their public image in the world as being the "opressed" by the takfiri sunnis who's whole ideology is riddled with takfir and ghuloo.

Edited by Abu Ismail Al Farsi
Typo

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12 minutes ago, Abu Ismail Al Farsi said:

It's very evident by the replies here who the real takfiris are . Why is it that difficult to just admitt whoever doesn't believe in of the imams is a kafir ? 

 

The problem is that our Shia friends know very well how it would damage their public image in the world as being the "opressed" by the takfiri sunnis who's whole ideology is riddled with takfir and ghuloo.

Olana has their own fatwa about it, their own opinion.

Some shia bieleves that they are kafir after their research, if sunnies ignor it while they are a'alim then they are kafir, and if they ignor it while they were jahil to it then they aren't kafir at least not like the first group.

Sunnies even reject Nabowwat by saying weird things about the prophet saw, while it's a kufr absolutely.

Ghadir was about to saying Ali a.s was a friend, idk to laugh or cry each time when I'm facing this issue.

Edited by Haimi

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17 minutes ago, Abu Ismail Al Farsi said:

*****

BTW welcome to the forum. Please bring more new registered Sunni while we discussing about such matter at this time, what an accident.

Edited by Haimi

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5 hours ago, Qa'im said:

The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: Whoever dies without recognizing his Imam dies the death of jahiliyya.

There are different levels of "disbelieving" an Imam. Firstly, those who simply have not accepted Imamate are unanimously Muslim - they are tahir, their food is halal, their marriage is halal, and they have all of the rights that a Muslim has. They may receive the intercession of the Prophet on the Day of Resurrection. Secondly, those who do not know the truth of Imamate - which would probably be most Sunnis in the last 1400 years - will not be questioned regarding it. Thirdly, many Sunnis fulfill a very basic form of walayah, which is the love of Ahl al-Bayt; however, their walayah is incomplete, because they largely ignore their teachings, they often praise those who fought against them, they prefer the leadership and madhhab of others, and they do not give them their due rights. Still, they are not considered a disbeliever until they have hated the Ahl al-Bayt and/or their followers, and have outwardly acted upon this hatred (i.e. ISIL's execution of people because of their Shiism, or the poisoning of our Imams by Caliphal elites).

We see the prophets and imams as the vicegerents and representatives of Allah on Earth. Whomever works against them, or is jealous of their position, or prefers others over them, is going against the divine order.

 

Death of Jahilliyah doesnt mean dying as a disbeliever (kafir) or as a ploytheist (mushrik), but it means dying as disobedient one.

Ibn Hajar in Fath Al-Bari, under commentary of #6530 said:

“To die as those who died in the pre-Islamic period of ignorance means the state of death: to die in a state of misguidance with no ruler to obey, as the inhabitants of that era had no such system of ruling. The hadith doesn’t mean that the Muslim will die as a kafir but as a disobeying Muslim."

Some more evidences.

Al-Bukhari (#6530) and Muslim (#6610) narrated from Ibn Abbās that he said: the Prophet peace be upon him says: “Whoever disapproves an act done by his ruler has to be patient. Whoever disobeys the ruler even in the smallest matters will die a death of Jahiliyyah.”

Muslim narrated in his Sahīh (#3437) from Abi Hurayrah that the Prophet peace be upon him said: “Whoever disobeys the ruler and becomes separate from the company of Muslims and then dies will die a death of jahiliyyah.”

Muslim (#3441) narrated from Ibn ‘Umar may Allah be pleased with them that he said: I heard the Prophet peace be upon him saying: “Whoever declines to obey his ruler, he will be faced with Allah the Almighty without an argument. Whoever dies without submitting pledge of allegiance will die a death of jahiliyyah.”

According to the first hadith, it is about disobedience to the ruler. This cannot be the case with the hidden Shia Mahdi. The second hadith clearly speaks about separating from the company of Muslims. The third hadith is about pledging allegiance, and there is nobody in the past millennium that has pledged his allegiance to the hidden Imam.

The above narrations all clearly refer to regular rulers and there is no indication that any of these is referring to an appointed hidden Imam. Also most of the Imams from Ahlebayt never ruled anything and stayed at home except Imam Ali a.s and Imam Hassan a.s. And they ruled and became caliphs when sahabah had chosen them via consultation.

So the death of Jahiliyyah means a death similar to those people who lived in pre-Islamic times, they were divided and not united upon one leadership, rather each tribe ruled itself and they declared wars on each-other. Islam stressed upon unity and loyalty for the sake of the greater good of the nation and this narration reflects this perfectly, it doesn’t mean that the disobedient person will become an idol worshiper or kafir like the people of Jahiliyyah.


Moreover death of Jahilliyah is not only when one dont recognize Imam (If there is actually one present) but its also when someone commit following acts as per twelver shia narrations.

Abu Ali Al-Ashari from Al-Hasan bin Ali Al-Kufi from Al-Abbas bin Amer from Dawud bin Al-Husain from Abi Abdullah (as): “Whosoever drinks an intoxicant, his prayer will not be accepted for forty days. If he dead within those forty days, then he will die a death of the jahiliyyah, but if he repented then Allah will forgive him.” (Al Kafi, H 11914, Ch. 5, h 2; Al-Majlisi declares this hadith reliable in Mir’at Al-Uqool).

Shia book Jami Ahadith al Shia, there is a whole chapter as:
باب ما ورد في أن الوصية حق على كل مسلم ، وأن من مات بغير وصية مات ميتة جاهلية
Chapter on what has been narrated regarding that will(wasiyyah) is haqq on all the Muslims , and who died without making will dies upon the death of jahiliyyah.

Here is one hadeeth from the above chapter:
المقنعة 101 – قال صلى الله عليه وآله من مات بغير وصية فقد مات ميتة جاهلية.
al-Muqni`ah 101- He Peace be upon him and his family said: He who dies without a Will then he died a death of Jahiliyyah.


W.salam.

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Belief of Twelver shias VS belief of Imam Ali a.s

 

Twelver shia's belief

 

 

Imam Ali's a.s belief

297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef – Ibn Alwan – Jafar – Father – Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him: We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and they see that they are upon truth.


إن عليا لم يكن ينسب أحدا من أهل حربه إلى الشرك ولا إلى النفاق ولكنه كان يقول: هم أخواننا بغوا علينا  - 298

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s said:

“Ali didn't attributed anyone from those who fought against to shirk or hypocrisy, but he said: “The are our brothers, which rebel against us”.

Source: “Biharal anwar” 32/324, No. 297 & 298. https://www.aqaed.com/ahlulbait/books/behar32/a33.html

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7 hours ago, Abu Ismail Al Farsi said:

It's very evident by the replies here who the real takfiris are . Why is it that difficult to just admitt whoever doesn't believe in of the imams is a kafir ? 

 

The problem is that our Shia friends know very well how it would damage their public image in the world as being the "opressed" by the takfiri sunnis who's whole ideology is riddled with takfir and ghuloo.

Lol.

I don't know of any Shi`i scholar who has actually done takfeer of Sunnis, but I know of many Sunni scholars who have done takfeer of Shi`a and have called for their killing. Even `Allamah al-Majlisi, who was famously harsh against Sunnis and whose quote you can see above, said that they are disbelievers in the next life. This is a crucial detail: it means that they are Muslims in this life, their status is Muslim and they are not to be harmed for their disbelief in the Imams. The `amma are not considered heretics or apostates. Sayyid al-Sistani, the most followed scholar today, famously said that Sunnis are not just our brothers, but our selves. No scholar quoted in this thread, ancient or modern (Saduq, Mufid, Tusi, Sayyid Shirazi, etc.), has called Sunnis kufar. These quotes need to be contextualized with the many proofs presented in our literature about the `amma and the mustad`afeen.

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3 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Belief of Twelver shias VS belief of Imam Ali a.s

 

Twelver shia's belief

 

 

Imam Ali's a.s belief

297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef – Ibn Alwan – Jafar – Father – Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him: We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and they see that they are upon truth.


إن عليا لم يكن ينسب أحدا من أهل حربه إلى الشرك ولا إلى النفاق ولكنه كان يقول: هم أخواننا بغوا علينا  - 298

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s said:

“Ali didn't attributed anyone from those who fought against to shirk or hypocrisy, but he said: “The are our brothers, which rebel against us”.

Source: “Biharal anwar” 32/324, No. 297 & 298. https://www.aqaed.com/ahlulbait/books/behar32/a33.html

Why are you coming with Bukhari and Muslim? We don't accept these fabricated narrations.

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10 hours ago, Qa'im said:

The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: Whoever dies without recognizing his Imam dies the death of jahiliyya.

There are different levels of "disbelieving" an Imam. Firstly, those who simply have not accepted Imamate are unanimously Muslim - they are tahir, their food is halal, their marriage is halal, and they have all of the rights that a Muslim has. They may receive the intercession of the Prophet on the Day of Resurrection. Secondly, those who do not know the truth of Imamate - which would probably be most Sunnis in the last 1400 years - will not be questioned regarding it. Thirdly, many Sunnis fulfill a very basic form of walayah, which is the love of Ahl al-Bayt; however, their walayah is incomplete, because they largely ignore their teachings, they often praise those who fought against them, they prefer the leadership and madhhab of others, and they do not give them their due rights. Still, they are not considered a disbeliever until they have hated the Ahl al-Bayt and/or their followers, and have outwardly acted upon this hatred (i.e. ISIL's execution of people because of their Shiism, or the poisoning of our Imams by Caliphal elites).

We see the prophets and imams as the vicegerents and representatives of Allah on Earth. Whomever works against them, or is jealous of their position, or prefers others over them, is going against the divine order.

I can't help but think your post is lacking proof.

 

The brother posted narrations that clearly imply the Kufr of the non believer in Imamah. He also posted the words of leading Shia scholars confirming this matter.

 

Suddenly an admin on SC comes and says "Nah, they're okay, they won't be asked."

How about you list solid evidence? The answer you gave isn't acceptable without evidence.

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1 hour ago, Qa'im said:

 Even `Allamah al-Majlisi, who was famously harsh against Sunnis and whose quote you can see above, said that they are disbelievers in the next life

Nice little Takfiri trick there by your Majlisi.

I've also read in the books of your scholars, that those who say we're disbelievers in the afterlife only do so to avoid being harmed by Sunnies. Meaning it's Taqiyyah, it's done due to convenience since treating Sunnies as open Kuffar is not in your best worldly interests.

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34 minutes ago, Ali Riza said:

I can't help but think your post is lacking proof.

 

The brother posted narrations that clearly imply the Kufr of the non believer in Imamah. He also posted the words of leading Shia scholars confirming this matter.

 

Suddenly an admin on SC comes and says "Nah, they're okay, they won't be asked."

How about you list solid evidence? The answer you gave isn't acceptable without evidence.

You can think what you want buddy, the fact is there.

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2 hours ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:
5 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Belief of Twelver shias VS belief of Imam Ali a.s

 

Twelver shia's belief

 

 

Imam Ali's a.s belief

297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef – Ibn Alwan – Jafar – Father – Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him: We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and they see that they are upon truth.


إن عليا لم يكن ينسب أحدا من أهل حربه إلى الشرك ولا إلى النفاق ولكنه كان يقول: هم أخواننا بغوا علينا  - 298

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s said:

“Ali didn't attributed anyone from those who fought against to shirk or hypocrisy, but he said: “The are our brothers, which rebel against us”.

Source: “Biharal anwar” 32/324, No. 297 & 298. https://www.aqaed.com/ahlulbait/books/behar32/a33.html

Why are you coming with Bukhari and Muslim? We don't accept these fabricated narrations.

 

READ CAREFULLY.

These are not from Bukhari and Muslim.

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Thank you brother Qaim for the beneficial post. Our dialogue is moving forward in positive direction.

 

I have a few questions that are based on the reports that you have mentioned. 

 

1- Are the two narrations that you have quoted accepted as authentic according to Shia hadith? 

 

2- Don't you feel that these hadiths contradict my original post? 

 

3- I was always under the impression that Shias believed that Sunnis are not among the saved sect and that only those that are the "true followers" of Ahl Al Bayt will be saved. Am I incorrect in making this assumption?

 

4- You have said previously that the statements by the top scholars that I have mentioned in my first post are taken out of context. I searched into their opinions after you said that and I found more statements from them that are similar. Was it that they were wrong in their understanding of the Shia faith? Or would you mind sharing some evidences that I misrepresented their views?

 

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