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submitter71

Ruling on Disbelieving in an Imam

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As I have said in my fourth point, I stumbled upon more opinions from those top scholars that support the belief that Sunnis are in hell fire.

 

Al Sadooq said (al iitiqadat 340): We believe that one must make baraa' of the four idols and the four women and all of their followers, for they are the worst of the creation. One cannot accept Allah, his messenger, or the Imams, except by making baraa' of their enemies. 

 

Al Mufeed (muqni'a 579): The nawasib against Aal Mohammed are two types. You can eat from the sacrifices of one but not from the other. The sacrifices of those that love Ameer Al Mumineen (as) and his good progeny (as) is halal, even if they didn't know their rights based on the narrations. 

 

So according to Al Mufeed, the common Sunni today is Nasibi, and according to the narration that you presented, the Nawasib are in hell fire. 

 

These two opinions above fit in well with the narration that I have quoted in the first post and the earlier statements by these scholars. 

I understand that this is an uncomfortable opinion to find in Shia books, since I am sure many of you have Sunni friends or even family. To be honest, I also do not believe that the Imams could have said such a thing, because it is a very cruel version of Islam of it was true. Though, I still believe that these harsh opinions reflect orthodox Shiasm and not the watered down version that we hear of in the West and in polemical works.

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Salam

There is the concept of Musta'afeen which Qaim talked about. That is highly important.

The position of when a person is responsible to know the truth or at least deeply study a religion claiming it or reason about religion, depends on the person, depends on what they have been reminded of.

What is important and most important, is that people are devoted to God and in state of sincerity to follow the truth if presented to them.

When the hate God's way of guidance or his proofs or Ayat, for the sake of the Jibt and Taghut, then is a Shirk that is never forgiven by God.  Because it values people who don't deserve to be valued as guides to the extent they prefer them to obedience to God and his Messenger.

Despite what people might try to water down, the Quran is clear, that those who disbelieve in God's Ayat will be in hell.

At the end, everyone has some level of guidance coming towards them.

Remember Suratal Fatiha distinguishes between those who God's wrath is upon and those astray. Those who God misguides are those who God's wrath is upon, so those who are astray are in fact, not those who God misguides, they are not misguided or guided, they rather are as Quran described them, without power to believe and walk the straight path nor do find a way to either believe or disbelieve.

If you want the Ahlulbayt view and the classical scholars view, you cannot divorce it from this topic. You cannot talk about this issue, but forget all the emphasis on musta'afeen.

This put's unbalanced view.  

In my view,  people who hear about differences and are aware of them, and responsible to investigate them and not simply close one ears to the other side. That is part of what it means to be human. However, I understand a lot of people recite Quran in such a hasty manner, they conclude that Imammate of Imam Ali and others are not in there. And then they conclude why bother looking into polemics when Quran doesn't designate them.

This is perfectly a legitimate excuse for humanity to start off with in my view, however, when they become aware of the blessed interpretation and God's Ayat are clarified and made clear, then they are without excuse.

A person responsibiltiy depends on what they know.

The same is true of Atheists, Christians, Jews, etc, the shirk condemned in Quran, the disbelief, is the type that it is done when people know better. 

A lot of people know better, a lot people don't. 

Of course closing one ears to the other side is not acceptable as well. Humans who are afraid of the truth and hate to know it, and close one ears to hearing, this is not excusable.

The Quran and Ahlulbayt go together, to the extent, that anyone who sincerely comes to it, eventually should be guided towards the light.

You haven't research some religions because you haven't found them worth the time. There is all sorts of sects in Islam I haven't researched because I haven't found them worth the time.

And depending on many factors, a person maybe be responsible to know the truth or he may not be. Of course, there is always a way to know the truth for everyone if they put so much intense time and effort in searching for it, reasoning in the depths, but this besides the point. 

God is not harsh with his creation, he is the Compassionate, the Merciful.

I urge you to read the many hadiths on "those without power/those (too) weak" in relationship to the verse in Suratal Nisaa.

 

 

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I posted this on an Atheistforum before by the user name MysticKnight:

 

From a famous Shia tafsir:

QUR'AN: Except the weak ones from among the men and the women and the children who have not in their power the means nor can they find a way (to escape): The exception is isolated. Allah calls this group weak and their weakness is explained in this very verse. It proves that the previously mentioned unjust people were not weak because they could liberate themselves from the fetters of oppression by emigrating from that land. Weak in reality are these people mentioned in this verse. To mention them with such detail, "the men and the women and the children" makes the divine order clearer and removes all possible misunderstandings. Hilah(translated here as 'means') is derived from al-haylulah (to interpose, to come between); then it was used for a device which comes between a person and his goal; it is mostly used for what is done secretly and for objectionable activity - artifice, ruse, subterfuge. Its root contains a connotation of change, as ar-Raghib has written in his Mufradatul-Qur'an.
The meaning: These people are unable to do anything to avert from themselves the oppression perpetrated against them by the polytheists; they cannot find a way to get out from the enemies' clutch. The 'way' in this context means the real path (e.g., the way to Medina for the intending emigrants from Mecca) as well as the metaphorical way, i.e., every means which could free them from the polytheists' hands and put an end to their oppression and tyranny.
On the "Weak Ones"
The verse shows that ignorance of religious tenets is a valid excuse in Allah's eyes, provided it is caused by such inadequacy and weakness which were not contributed to by the ignorant person himself.
 
Allah says that ignorance of religion and inability to establish religious rites and tenets is an inequity which will not be forgiven by Him. Then He makes an exception of the weak persons and accepts their plea of 'weakness', and defines that weakness in a way which includes others too: that is, they are unable to avert the danger from themselves. Now, this inability manifests itself in two ways:
One: A man lives in a place where he does not have access to religious knowledge because there is no scholar there who could teach him the necessary details; or he is unable to act according to shari'ahbecause the enemies forcefully prevent him from it and put him under unbearable torture and oppression; and he cannot leave that place to emigrate to a Muslim land and join his fellow Muslims. As a result, this inability may emanate from weakness of mind, sickness, physical handicap, lack of money or other such factors.
Two: A man is oblivious of the established truth of the religion and its tenets, and his thoughts have not led him to it, but at the same time he has no enmity towards truth, is not averse to it at all; if he knew the reality he would have readily accepted it; but the truth has remained hidden from him because of some factors [and, therefore, he does not know it].
This too is a 'weak' person who does not have a means and does not find a way to escape from his ignorance - not because of any enemies who might be threatening him from all sides with swords and spears - but because of other factors which have overpowered his thinking and put him under oblivion. Obviously, with this oblivion he has no power and with this ignorance he cannot find a way to the truth.
This explanation is based on the generality of the verse which shows that the given cause is unrestricted [and covers cases of unavoidable ignorance and oblivion]. The theme is supported by some other verses too. For example: Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned, and upon it is (the evil of) what it has wrought(2:286). Obviously, a thing, which one is unaware of, is beyond one's ability in the same way as is a thing which one is forcefully prevented from.
This verse of the second chapter absolves one from responsibility in cases of lack of ability, and at the same time lays down a criterion for distinguishing a genuine inability from a false one. That is, the man should not have contributed towards that inability; if his total or partial ignorance of religion emanates from his own negligence or wrong choice then he should be held responsible for it. In other words, it is he who has committed that sin. On the other hand, if that ignorance is caused - not by his own actions - but by some factors beyond his power, then it cannot be attributed to his own choice - he cannot be accused of committing a sin, or of being arrogant; he has not opposed the truth nor has he rejected it intentionally. In short, for him is what he has earned, and upon him is what he has wrought.
It appears from the above, that a 'weak' person is empty-handed. There is nothing for or against him in his account, because he has not earned anything. His judgment is in the hands of his Lord. This is clear from the next verse: So these it may be, Allah will pardon them and Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving; and from the verse 106 of ch. 9: And others are made to await Allah's command, whether He will turn to them (in mercy); and Allah is Knowing, Wise. And His mercy is ahead of His wrath.
QUR'AN: So these, it may be, Allah will pardon them,...: The weak ones have not earned any sin, because they were unable to remove their ignorance. Yet, as explained before man's affairs are either good or evil, and it is enough for one's infelicity if one does not earn good for himself. Man, whether he is good, evil or just empty-handed, can never be free from the need of Allah's pardon and forgiveness; it is this divine pardoning which erases the traces of evil and infelicity. That is why Allah has offered them here a hope of pardon.
First the hope is offered to them of being pardoned, and it is immediately followed by the declaration:and Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving. It makes it almost definite that the divine forgiveness will cover them [on the Day of Judgment], as they have been separated, through exception, from the unjust ones who have been threatened that their abode is hell and it is evil resort.





The following is  hadith of one of the 12 Successors of the Prophet:


as-Sadiq (a.s.) said explaining this verse: " 'who have not in their power the means' to our enmity, so that they could have got ill-feelings [towards us], 'nor are able to find a way' to the truth, that they could come on the right path; they will enter the garden because of their good deeds and their abstaining from the unlawful things forbid­den by Allah, but they will not get the rank of the righteous ones." (at-Tafsir, al-'Ayyashi)

My (MysticKnight) comment: 

It is understood the righteous ones would search the truth and find it, and they would make the spiritual journey to the guide of our time and come to his recognition where ever they are, and those who strive hard for God, God would surely guide them. This is why those don't have the power to enmity nor find a way to to the truth, are one excused and will enter paradise, but are to be given the rank of the righteous ones who would of searched the truth and found it through spiritual reflection and awakening while they strive hard for God.

This shows a middle a way, were searchers of the truth are praised to a higher degree, but at the same time, those who didn't have any hatred towards God or his chosen ones by the truth becoming manifest to them nor found a way to possibly be guided in their state, God may forgive them their sins provided they were not overwhelming on the side of evil like a mass murderer or something.

Some other hadiths:

'Ali (a.s.) said: "The name of weakness is not used for him to whom the proof has reached, and his ears heard it and his heart understood it." (Nahju'l-balaghah)

al-Kazim (a.s.) was asked about the weak ones. He (a.s.) wrote: "The weak is he to whom proof has not been conveyed and who is unaware of [religious] difference. But he is no weaker once he knew the difference." (al-Kafi)

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Another interesting hadith, is seen as God forgives the heedlessness to reciting chapters as they are:

'Umar ibn Ishaq says: "Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) was asked as to

what was the definition of the weak which has been mentioned by Allah. He said: 'He who does not properly recite any of the Qur'anic chapters, while Allah has created it in such a way that no one should fail to recite it properly.'" (Ma'ani'l-akhbar)

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13 minutes ago, LinkZelda said:

Another interesting hadith, is seen as God forgives the heedlessness to reciting chapters as they are:

'Umar ibn Ishaq says: "Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) was asked as to

what was the definition of the weak which has been mentioned by Allah. He said: 'He who does not properly recite any of the Qur'anic chapters, while Allah has created it in such a way that no one should fail to recite it properly.'" (Ma'ani'l-akhbar)

 

Very interesting narration brother. This means that most Sunnis are going to hell, since most of them have the ability to read the Quran.

I went to the book the you quoted, Ma'ani'l-akhbar, and I found another interesting narration. It is the sixth narration in the chapter. Jafar Al Sadiq (ra) is saying that there are more "weak people" anymore. 

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6 minutes ago, submitter71 said:

 

 

Very interesting narration brother. This means that most Sunnis are going to hell, since most of them have the ability to read the Quran.

I went to the book the you quoted, Ma'ani'l-akhbar, and I found another interesting narration. It is the sixth narration in the chapter. Jafar Al Sadiq (ra) is saying that there are more "weak people" anymore. 

 
 
 

It depends on how you interpret it, many of our hadiths, to truly recite chapter, doesn't mean simply it's letters or even just understanding it's words, but really reciting it in the sense it comes together and the message is clear.

The Ahlulbayt were distinguishing from people who see the Quran as truly is and distort it knowingly, and those who hearts are heedless.

Of course Quran is designed in a way, that no one should not be able to recite is as it ought to be recited but the again, the mind/heart/soul is designed in a way, we should all arrive at the truth.

Naturally,  being heedless of Quran has a condemnation to. If it's from worshiping the Taghut and loving the dunya, then it would not be forgivable as well. If it's preferring the falsehood over the truth, and hating the truth, it will not be forgivable as well.

Ahlulbayt to me are no doubt the clear designation of Quran of the way and path to God.

The Quran has clear proofs of the guidance, and people ought to be careful on how they recite the Quran.

At the end this hadith can be fabricated, but the truth of Quranic arguments and it being clear guidance, cannot be done away with.

 

Edited by LinkZelda

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4 hours ago, submitter71 said:

I understand that this is an uncomfortable opinion to find in Shia books, since I am sure many of you have Sunni friends or even family. To be honest, I also do not believe that the Imams could have said such a thing, because it is a very cruel version of Islam of it was true. Though, I still believe that these harsh opinions reflect orthodox Shiasm and not the watered down version that we hear of in the West and in polemical works.

when shia have been brought up into thinking they are the victim of takfiri groups and then found out that the foundation of shia belief is making takfir of others, of course it will be very uncomfortable @submitter71

as for other shia who already know this, to admit shia great scholars conform to madhab of takfir is not good for their image and political standing

Edited by janbiya
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Shaykh of shias at-Tusi in his “Talkhis ash shafi” 4/131 said:

And as well we know that whoever fought against him (Ali) is equal to person who refused his Imamah and rejected. And rejecting his Imamah is kufr, like rejecting of prophecy is kufr, and ignorance in them equal to each other.

This is apparent takfir of all Islamic nation apart from 12-ers shias, and takfir of Talha, Zubayr as well.

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14 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Shaykh of shias at-Tusi in his “Talkhis ash shafi” 4/131 said:

And as well we know that whoever fought against him (Ali) is equal to person who refused his Imamah and rejected. And rejecting his Imamah is kufr, like rejecting of prophecy is kufr, and ignorance in them equal to each other.

This is apparent takfir of all Islamic nation apart from 12-ers shias, and takfir of Talha, Zubayr as well.

YES it is, except mostazafs.

Didn't like it? Imamate is an order of Allah, and whoever rejects the order of Allah purposely, is a KAFIR.

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36 minutes ago, celestial said:

YES it is, except mostazafs.

Didn't like it? Imamate is an order of Allah, and whoever rejects the order of Allah purposely, is a KAFIR.

Mostazafs? 

Hmmm. Imamate the order of Allah... Good.

I remember I have seen this question years ago.

If you will call someone to Islam, you would definitely explain him that he should believe in Imamate of 12. 

You would name him these 12 Imams, in order to be sure that he wouldn't believe in any others. For example you would say that Musa ibn Jafar and not Ismail ibn Jafar is your Imam. 

Book of Allah. Which is not tampered in accordance to all muslims, sunnis and shias. Allah in this Holy book explained in details rulings of inheritance and female periods. Muslim definitely wouldn't be accused in disbelief in case of his ignorance of these two. 

Please show me a single verse where Allah in clear cut form explained that Muslims have to believe in 12 Imams, starting with our master Ali (r.a) and ending with Mahdi. Where the proof in the Quran that I have to believe to the Imamate of Husayn's sons and not Hasan's sons?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Please show me a single verse where Allah in clear cut form explained that Muslims have to believe in 12 Imams, starting with our master Ali (r.a) and ending with Mahdi. Where the proof in the Quran that I have to believe to the Imamate of Husayn's sons and not Hasan's sons?

Prove me the caliphate of Abubakr?

Edited by celestial

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21 hours ago, celestial said:

Prove me the caliphate of Abubakr?

Sunnis are not obligated to prove his caliphate brother since nobody said that rejecting his caliphate removes someone out of Islam. 

On the other hand, we find that exact opposite in Shia hadith and in the opinions of the top Shia scholars. Go back to my first post if you'd like. 

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