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Rejectionist

Qualities required to become Caliph

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First qualties he should me monotheist by birth which mean by birth he should worship Allah....but when se muslim caliph i.e Abu bakr,umar and usman most of his life they worship idol and were polytheist....so the question arise they are capable becoming muslim caliph

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16 minutes ago, Rejectionist said:

First qualties he should me monotheist by birth which mean by birth he should worship Allah....

and where is this quality or criteria for becoming a caliph mentioned?

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Oh i forgot one thing that the satan should change his way one seeing the caliph / big one 

Also the caliph could be even a prophet after the last prophet Muhammad saww.

Marvelous indeed

Edited by skamran110

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7 hours ago, Rejectionist said:

First qualties he should me monotheist by birth which mean by birth he should worship Allah....but when se muslim caliph i.e Abu bakr,umar and usman most of his life they worship idol and were polytheist....so the question arise they are capable becoming muslim caliph

 

7 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

and where is this quality or criteria for becoming a caliph mentioned?

the incident of Surah Tawbah comes to mind when the Prophet recalled Caliph Abu Bakr from delivering it to the Kuffar of Mecca and replaced him with Imam Ali as commanded by Allah through Jibrael.

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14 hours ago, skamran110 said:

Oh i forgot one thing that the satan should change his way one seeing the caliph / big one 

Also the caliph could be even a prophet after the last prophet Muhammad saww.

Marvelous indeed

these are criteria considered by sunnis

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So we agreed.

1. Had never worshipped other than Allah.

2. Must be loyal to Prophet (PBUH) and never left him.

3. APPOINTED by Allah. (Condition denied by Sunnis).

4. Shaitan should never have control on him.

I think the fifth can be that he may not be superior to his predecessor but least equal or compatible to him. Like Prophet (PBUH) said about Imam Ali a.s "You are to me as Aaron a.s was to Mosus a.s but there is no prophet after me". So Ali a.s got every thing (knowledge, wisdom, Imamah, caliphate) from Prophet (PBUH) but not prophethood.

I am missing Sunni response on the subject though.

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3 hours ago, Haimi said:

at least your mind, and I'm sure every human being does have it.

thanks... so human mind tells that in order to become a Caliph, one needs to be a Muslim by birth.

what other qualities do Muslims by birth demonstrate in practical life that are specific or distinguishable or superior to the reverts. This will be interesting to know.

We depend in mainstream Islam much on texttual evidence... my question was

On 8/31/2016 at 5:55 PM, Bukhari8k said:

and where is this quality or criteria for becoming a caliph mentioned?

 

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41 minutes ago, Bukhari8k said:

thanks... so human mind tells that in order to become a Caliph, one needs to be a Muslim by birth.

what other qualities do Muslims by birth demonstrate in practical life that are specific or distinguishable or superior to the reverts. This will be interesting to know.

We depend in mainstream Islam much on texttual evidence... my question was

 

Let's say you want to hire someone to make coffee. The primary criteria would be that the person knows how to make coffee.

So you receive 2 applications where Applicant Ab knows only how to make coffee and Applicant Al knows how to make coffee and tea and that too better than anyone else around. Who would you hire to be the coffee maker?

Similarly, even if the only criteria for Caliph is that he is a Muslim, why would you not hire someone who excels others in everything unless you are biased?

You can combine the services to Islam of the first 3 caliphs during the life of the Prophet and they pale in comparison to Ali's achievements and accomplishments. So why hire C-grade sahaba when you have an A-grade sahaba available? 

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On 9/1/2016 at 7:45 PM, Haimi said:

افلا یعقلون؟

that's my textual  evidence sometimes.

lets discuss the logic then. As you said, human mind tells that for being a Muslim ruler one has to be a Muslim by birth... what exact reason can you think of that actually hinders the chances of a convert to Islam or a revert becoming Islamic leader?

And does the human mind also tell that a Christian Ruler has to be a born Christian?

thirdly, as I repeat:  what other qualities (if any) do Muslims by birth demonstrate in practical life that are specific or distinguishable or superior to the reverts.

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On 8/31/2016 at 6:25 PM, Bukhari8k said:

and where is this quality or criteria for becoming a caliph mentioned?

If u say ...if it is not written the qualities of caliph then it means anyone can become leader of muslim ummah...then it is not astonished that muslim had a caliph like yazid..mauviya...abu bakr bagdadi...polythesist caliph called themself leader of a muslim ....wow on muslim they follow these polythesist caliph

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53 minutes ago, Rejectionist said:

If u say ...if it is not written the qualities of caliph then it means anyone can become leader of muslim ummah...then it is not astonished that muslim had a caliph like yazid..mauviya...abu bakr bagdadi...polythesist caliph called themself leader of a muslim ....wow on muslim they follow these polythesist caliph

I did not say anything like its written or not written... in fact what i asked was to understand whether you are using some source or your own logic to reach such conclusions.

There can be two ways/criteria to define the qualities that are must for a leader  #1 as has been defined in The Text #2 Human Logic.

In the OP or the beginning of your posts when you go on to claim the following.... you forgot to mention which of the above criteria have you used for reaching the following conclusion??? 

On 8/31/2016 at 5:38 PM, Rejectionist said:

First qualties he should me monotheist by birth which mean by birth he should worship Allah....

So which one... source or logic?

Edited by Bukhari8k

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12 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

I did not say anything like its written or not written... in fact what i asked was to understand whether you are using some source or your own logic to reach such conclusions.

There can be two ways/criteria to define the qualities that are must for a leader  #1 as has been defined in The Text #2 Human Logic.

In the OP or the beginning of your posts when you go on to claim the following.... you forgot to mention which of the above criteria have you used for reaching the following conclusion??? 

So which one... source or logic?

Both can be used even logic and source as well, 

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It is my common observation that Sunni brothers only appear in such threads where somehow while relying on their own sources against the rules of dialogue can try to defend their views. However where it is difficult for them to defend, they avoid the thread. Here if we can agree on the qualities of caliph of Prophet PBUH, we can easily see whether Ali a.s or Abu Bakr was eligible to be caliph of Prophet PBUH.

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19 hours ago, Rejectionist said:

Both can be used even logic and source as well, 

then thats what i had asked for in my first post... source of the requirement of being a Muslim by birth?

As for logic, i have already questioned what qualities can a Muslim by birth demonstrate in practical life that are specific or distinguishable or superior to the reverts?

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8 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

then thats what i had asked for in my first post... source of the requirement of being a Muslim by birth?

As for logic, i have already questioned what qualities can a Muslim by birth demonstrate in practical life that are specific or distinguishable or superior to the reverts?

From hazrat Adam a.s till our prophet s.a.w.s total 1,24,000 prophet had came to guide mankind but none were polytheist by birth ... they were monothesist by birth. this is enough itself to proof  from source point of view and from the logic point of view u cannot follow the inferior if superior is present same way u cannot follow a person who has practice polythesist....what guarantee he may lead u to hell...he himself not sure what to practice how he can make others practice.

Edited by Rejectionist

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On 8/31/2016 at 4:38 PM, Rejectionist said:

First qualties he should me monotheist by birth which mean by birth he should worship Allah....but when se muslim caliph i.e Abu bakr,umar and usman most of his life they worship idol and were polytheist....so the question arise they are capable becoming muslim caliph

Well where from you get this "necessary" quality? Where in Quran or Sunnah you can see indication, that caliph suppose to be monotheist by birth?

Besides, is there any proof on your hands that Abu Bakr (r.a) did worship idols?

 

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On 9/7/2016 at 5:16 PM, Rejectionist said:

From hazrat Adam a.s till our prophet s.a.w.s total 1,24,000 prophet had came to guide mankind but none were polytheist by birth ... they were monothesist by birth. this is enough itself to proof  from source point of view and from the logic point of view u cannot follow the inferior if superior is present same way u cannot follow a person who has practice polythesist....what guarantee he may lead u to hell...he himself not sure what to practice how he can make others practice.

You are talking about all the designated Prophets and Messengers of Allah. Allah communicated to them through angel to spread His divine message. They gave us Books and Sahifas. They have been repeatedly referred to in Quran and many times by names as those chosen or sent down with special mission. You are comparing apples with oranges by comparing them to other individuals.

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http://www.alim.org/library/biography/khalifa/content/KAB/1/2


If u read the above article carefully u will see point that Abu bakr accepted the faith and he was a first in men to accepted the faith...that's itself proof that he was polythesist and then he accepted the faith...and if you read history more then u will find that in mecca before prophet s.a.w.s claimed prophethood..all were worshiping idol and were polythesist except the clan of banu Hashim...so that concludes Abu bakr were worshiping idols..

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On 9/7/2016 at 9:51 AM, Abu_Rumaysah said:

Besides, is there any proof on your hands that Abu Bakr (r.a) did worship idols?

No. 5: According to the traditional report of Qastalani4, Abu Bakr said, “I have never prostrated to idols.” Umar became angry at this and said, “You say that you have not prostrated to idols, though during the period of your infidelity, you indeed committed such acts.” 

https://www.al-islam.org/misbah-uz-zulam-roots-karbala-tragedy-sayyid-imdad-imam/unlawful-matters-abu-bakr-and-umars#fref_9dd92cdd_4

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On ۱۳۹۵/۶/۱۱ ه‍.ش. at 11:20 AM, elite said:

The following sentence of Imam Ali(as) from sermon 173 of Nahjul Balagah sheds light on eligibility for Khilafat.

أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ، إنَّ أَحَقَّ النَّاسِ بِهذَا الاْمْرِ أَقْوَاهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِأَمْرِ اللهِ فِيهِ

O people! The most rightful of all persons for this matter (namely the caliphate) is he who is most competent among them to maintain it, and he who knows best Allah's commands about it.

Imam Ali(as) mentioned two qualities for who should be the Khalifa.

1...  Strongest among the people

2. Most knowledgable among the  people

Same thing  was mentioned for Talut in quran who was given the Mulk over Bani Israil.

قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاهُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَزَادَهُ بَسْطَةً فِي الْعِلْمِ وَالْجِسْمِ

 Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique,  2:247

 

 

according to these narration of imam Ali (pbuh) and the Qur'an verse, the qualities of being the prophet caliphate is being the strongest people and having more knowledge than others.

the first quality refer to be strong mentally and physically. the caliph should deal with people in a good way. it needs mental and physical  power to abide the problems when he manage there affairs. the second quality refer having most knowledge of how to manage people and how to make some good decision during his management.      

Edited by naeem azimi

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1 hour ago, Bukhari8k said:

You are talking about all the designated Prophets and Messengers of Allah. Allah communicated to them through angel to spread His divine message. They gave us Books and Sahifas. They have been repeatedly referred to in Quran and many times by names as those chosen or sent down with special mission. You are comparing apples with oranges by comparing them to other individuals.

Surah Saad verses no 26: oh Dawood ,surely we have made you caliph on the land...if you see above verses that Hazrat dawood was a caliph appointed by the Allah s.w.t ....this ayat clarifies most of the thing 1) He was a caliph from Allah side and not from People side and not appointed in saqifah.

2)He was a monothesist by birth and not idol worshipper like other caliph

3) he was a masoom...not like other caliph who have committed major sin like shirk and practice idol worship.

I am not camparing apple with organes... but I am comparing whom we should follow....who will appoint him....what will be his qualities...successor of a prophet should have some special qualities otherwise I am much more better than them....we are not here in this world to follow a simple man like us..we are here to follow a man appointed by Allah with some special characteristics...by saying oranges you itself says they were not up to the mark ..think...ponder....study history

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19 minutes ago, hameedeh said:

No. 5: According to the traditional report of Qastalani4, Abu Bakr said, “I have never prostrated to idols.” Umar became angry at this and said, “You say that you have not prostrated to idols, though during the period of your infidelity, you indeed committed such acts.” 

https://www.al-islam.org/misbah-uz-zulam-roots-karbala-tragedy-sayyid-imdad-imam/unlawful-matters-abu-bakr-and-umars#fref_9dd92cdd_4

Excellent

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6 minutes ago, Rejectionist said:

Surah Saad verses no 26: oh Dawood ,surely we have made you caliph on the land...if you see above verses that Hazrat dawood was a caliph appointed by the Allah s.w.t ....this ayat clarifies most of the thing 1) He was a caliph from Allah side and not from People side and not appointed in saqifah.

2)He was a monothesist by birth and not idol worshipper like other caliph

3) he was a masoom...not like other caliph who have committed major sin like shirk and practice idol worship.

I am not camparing apple with organes... but I am comparing whom we should follow....who will appoint him....what will be his qualities...successor of a prophet should have some special qualities otherwise I am much more better than them....we are not here in this world to follow a simple man like us..we are here to follow a man appointed by Allah with some special characteristics...by saying oranges you itself says they were not up to the mark ..think...ponder....study history

U should campare hazrat dawood qualities and your caliphs qualities and then take a decision they are capable of becoming caliph..

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37 minutes ago, hameedeh said:

No. 5: According to the traditional report of Qastalani4, Abu Bakr said, “I have never prostrated to idols.” Umar became angry at this and said, “You say that you have not prostrated to idols, though during the period of your infidelity, you indeed committed such acts.” 

https://www.al-islam.org/misbah-uz-zulam-roots-karbala-tragedy-sayyid-imdad-imam/unlawful-matters-abu-bakr-and-umars#fref_9dd92cdd_4

I checked the link you gave. In the footnote it is written:  Vol. 6, Pg. 152.

Qastalani that is Shihab al-Din Abu'l-Abbas Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr al-Qastallani al-Qutaybi al-Shafi'i. I assume talk is about his famous Saheeh Bukhari commentary. Let me check and get back to you.

 

 

 

Edited by Abu_Rumaysah

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58 minutes ago, hameedeh said:

No. 5: According to the traditional report of Qastalani4, Abu Bakr said, “I have never prostrated to idols.” Umar became angry at this and said, “You say that you have not prostrated to idols, though during the period of your infidelity, you indeed committed such acts.” 

https://www.al-islam.org/misbah-uz-zulam-roots-karbala-tragedy-sayyid-imdad-imam/unlawful-matters-abu-bakr-and-umars#fref_9dd92cdd_4

This is the reason, why I suggest to shia brother and sister TO NOT trust to such translated sites.

Strange why shia site didn't include answer from Abu Bakr, how he tested Idols?

Capture - Copy.JPG

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Abu_Rumaysah said:

This is the reason, why I suggest to shia brother and sister TO NOT trust to such translated sites.

This is not in the Arabic subforum. We are replying in English in this topic. 

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