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So we've now shelved divorced ladies as Mutahs?

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In the name of Allah the beneficient the merciful,

It seems there is a backward ideology in society today, whereby we make women who are divorced and or with kids as mere Mutah partners, for young repressed women to engage in casual sex with, before leaving them.

These women crave stability perhaps far more than most people, given their age and position in life.

Our shamless, shameful, utterly barbaric treatment of women in general, not to mention divorced women, mainly in the indo-pak community where women are treated like cattle, and divorced women like iblees, is contrary to the sunnah.

Muhammed s.a.w, the greatest man of all time, married many divorced women. In fact, Umm Salama (radialayhu anha) was a divorced women. Not only that, she also had children, one of whom being Umar ibn abi salama (radiyallahu anhu), who was adopted by Muhammed s.a.w, and thereafter, became one of the closest companions of Imam Ali a.s, and one of the greatest men of his time.

That's how a divorced woman was treated then. Not as a Mutah doll, but as a wife to the greatest creation of Allah, with a son raised by the greatest creation, who goes onto being loyal and among the greatest companions to the second greatest man of al ltime.

We have abandoned the plight of divorced women. We have not done enough for them. And it is insulting to suggest a divorced women as someone a repressed young man should 'just do mutah with'. Have some dignity and respect. IF that is what she wants, then i understand. But to relegate them purely for this purpose is NOT right.

Then again, the state of muslims, and shia's in general in todays era leaves much to be desired anyway.

 

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I must say this solemnly, indo-pak culture is perhaps one of the most brutal , backward, and intensely barbaric towards women in general. Sadly, it is infiltrated into many muslim communities. Women are also mistreated in other cultures too.

It seems the christians and secularists have a far better record at treating women, and divorced women in paticular.

Shame.on.us.

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Dear brother - with all due respect, you could literally shoot yourself with such negativity.

Paki Indian Muslim culture is degenerated but not more than the Arab or the Iranian Muslim cultures. I've sen many divorced or widowed women getting permanently married either directly or through being in mutah-nikah into permanent.

I take the most offense of the mutah doll thing you mentioned. The whole idea of nikah in the Islam we take from the Prophet S and Ahlulbayt AS is woman does the nikah / mutah and not the man. I've met many women, specially those who are divorced who would prefer to do mutah, instead of jumping into permanent marriage, test a person out and then either move on or move in. You must be mad at some particular instance and painting the whole with a large brush. 

If anything I would complain about lack of mutah understanding and willingness among Indian-Paki Muslims to begin with.

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@uponthesunnah  I appreciate the thought behind you post, however it is wrong to say that it's just the people of indo pak who are biased towards divorced women. I have seen just as many men (of all ages) belonging to other cultures arabic, persian etc being obsessed with marrying virgins. 

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We shouldn't judge a whole race or nation of people because we have had bad experience with members of some specific race , my husband who I'm in a mutah relationship with is a Pakistani-american and I'm dutch and he is so wonderful mashallah and alhumdulilah I'm so lucky to have someone as kind and beautiful and respecctful as him , but getting back to your post I understand what you mean about mutah being a taboo in countries like Pakistan because my husbands family members were against his desire to do mutah with me but after he sat them down and convinced them that in the eyes of God mutah is permissible they reluctantly accepted and now alhumdulilah after 5 months of going strong they are happy and this is all thanks to the mercy of God , at the end of the day we are all entitled to our opinion this was just my two cents , may you have blessed day :)

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Just now, starlight said:

@uponthesunnah  I appreciate the thought behind you post, however it is wrong to say that it's just the people of indo pak who are biased towards divorced women. I have seen just as many men (of all ages) belonging to other cultures arabic, persian etc being obsessed with marrying virgins. 

I said indo-pak due to my first hand experience, and also being part of that community.

However, i also had stated it has infiltrated into many other muslim communities [iraqi, irani, and so on]. So you are right, it is not exclusive.

But nonetheless, treatment towards women in the indo-pak community is abysmal.

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Just now, IbnSina said:

Do not forget the blame that is on the middle aged men that are divorced as well in a similar life situation and walk of life as the divorced women but they in their greed marry young women that have never been married before instead of marrying their counterpart in terms of peoples of society.

Excellent point.

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@uponthesunnah, thank you so much for raising the plight of divorced women with children, like myself.  It is a terrible position to find yourself in, and yes, even your own family members will mistreat you, so forget about society at large.

Idk what the long term solution is, but it's awful to be rejected for marriage proposals because you are divorced/with children.  It's like we've got the plague. 

If you've been single for some time, people make assumptions about you, that perhaps you've been seeing someone.  That's the worst part, when people assume these things or insinuate them in conversation. 

Edited by FreeSpirit

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1 hour ago, uponthesunnah said:

I said indo-pak due to my first hand experience, and also being part of that community.

However, i also had stated it has infiltrated into many other muslim communities [iraqi, irani, and so on]. So you are right, it is not exclusive.

But nonetheless, treatment towards women in the indo-pak community is abysmal.

I have experienced both sides of these cultures, so I agree, this issue is " more " in indo-pak culture, plus the looking down on mutah.

Other ethnicities have it to, but at a lesser degree in comparison to indo - pak community.

Other ethnicities will have other issues which they are struggling more in comparison to indo- pak society, such as racism etc.

But the issue of looking down more on divorced and mutah is more prevalent in indo pak cultures.

The very fact these countries have a "higher rate" of honor killings and rape shows the fact,that woman are not valued as they should be.

There are certain issues which a society as a whole faces more with, so, I believe in the term general , and general means more so of the mind set, not a few rare ones.

Even Quran points out to this and critisizes specific Arabs more for their hypocrisy, as this trait is more prevalent in Arabs than others...

Iranians in general suffer from ego issues such as everyone thinks they are right..

So each nation has a certain mental disease which is more than the rest...

 

 

Edited by certainclarity

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5 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

Then again, the state of muslims, and shia's in general in todays era leaves much to be desired anyway.

Are you Shia or Sunni? I'm assuming you are Sunni since you used "radialayhu anha". So are you here to slam Shia? Mutah? or Indo-Pak Muslims? (or is it all of the above)

Which one is it?

5 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

I must say this solemnly, indo-pak culture is perhaps one of the most brutal , backward, and intensely barbaric towards women in general.

Its not perfect but its not as horrible as you are painting it to be. I'm assuming you are Indo-Pak since you speak with such innate knowledge of the culture.

5 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

Sadly, it is infiltrated into many muslim communities. Women are also mistreated in other cultures too.

Ummm...News flash...which culture in the world has treated women well? Middle East...no, Far East...no, Indo-Pak...no, Europe...no.

Can't infiltrate anything when its already that way.

3 hours ago, Irfani313 said:

Dear brother - with all due respect, you could literally shoot yourself with such negativity.

Is the OP a Brother or a Sister?

3 hours ago, Irfani313 said:

If anything I would complain about lack of mutah understanding and willingness among Indian-Paki Muslims to begin with.

I'd agree with you 100% on this point. Everyone wants a Mutah just get their fun but fail to realize what it truly is and what the fine details of it are as well as the responsibilties attached to it.

1 hour ago, FreeSpirit said:

it's awful to be rejected for marriage proposals because you are divorced/with children.  It's like we've got the plague. 

Unfortunately, another factor to consider is that most men don't want to take care of children that aren't theirs. Most re-married men I know don't have any significant level of attachment towards their stepchildren. Sure, they show a level of love and understanding but overall they make the distinction in their heads that "these aren't my kids". Sad, but that's the mentality.

51 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

I have experienced both sides of these cultures, so I agree, this issue is " more " in indo-pak culture, plus the looking down on mutah.

Other ethnicities have it to, but at a lesser degree in comparison to indo - pak community.

Well, lets look at it objectively. The reason the Indo-Pak culture has its specific traits is because they are carried over with the close interaction with Hindus. A lot of the Indo-Pak Muslim has borrowed heavily from the Hindus. The caste system, the treatment of women, etc...

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Just now, Akbar673 said:

x

 

Take a look at my topic history.

And 'Radiayullahu anhu' is not a sunni thing exclusively, it's also a shia thing , and the phrase is derived from the Quran.

 

Edited by uponthesunnah

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7 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

Muhammed s.a.w, the greatest man of all time, married many divorced women. In fact, Umm Salama (radialayhu anha) was a divorced women. Not only that, she also had children, one of whom being Umar ibn abi salama (radiyallahu anhu), who was adopted by Muhammed s.a.w, and thereafter, became one of the closest companions of Imam Ali a.s, and one of the greatest men of his time.

And he (s) did that in a society that openly accepted polygamy. Had we lived in pre-colonial Islamic society, all of these women would find stable partners. Otherwise, I don't know how a middle-aged divorced woman with children can convince an established man to be his permanent one-and-only, especially if her ex is alive and visiting his kids regularly. In a monogamous model, most people (men and women) want a clean slate, especially if they are widely available. They'd rather stay single than deal with an older lady and someone else's children out of the goodness of their heart. Remember that there are probably more marriageable women than marriageable men, as men are most affected by suicide, poverty, war, violence, imprisonment, workplace injuries, and addiction. We have to be pious, but we also have to think practically.

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9 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

In the name of Allah the beneficient the merciful,

It seems there is a backward ideology in society today, whereby we make women who are divorced and or with kids as mere Mutah partners, for young repressed women to engage in casual sex with, before leaving them.

These women crave stability perhaps far more than most people, given their age and position in life.

Our shamless, shameful, utterly barbaric treatment of women in general, not to mention divorced women, mainly in the indo-pak community where women are treated like cattle, and divorced women like iblees, is contrary to the sunnah.

Muhammed s.a.w, the greatest man of all time, married many divorced women. In fact, Umm Salama (radialayhu anha) was a divorced women. Not only that, she also had children, one of whom being Umar ibn abi salama (radiyallahu anhu), who was adopted by Muhammed s.a.w, and thereafter, became one of the closest companions of Imam Ali a.s, and one of the greatest men of his time.

That's how a divorced woman was treated then. Not as a Mutah doll, but as a wife to the greatest creation of Allah, with a son raised by the greatest creation, who goes onto being loyal and among the greatest companions to the second greatest man of al ltime.

We have abandoned the plight of divorced women. We have not done enough for them. And it is insulting to suggest a divorced women as someone a repressed young man should 'just do mutah with'. Have some dignity and respect. IF that is what she wants, then i understand. But to relegate them purely for this purpose is NOT right.

Then again, the state of muslims, and shia's in general in todays era leaves much to be desired anyway.

 

Well the divorced women who were married to the Prophet a.s. were not his only wives, Prophet practiced polygamy.

Now, would any of today's divorcee girls accept being a second wife to someone? If they do, then I'm open for them. I'll marry a virgin girl first, then marry one of them as a second wife. Let's see their response.

My personal experience with widows were awful. Most of them were gold-diggers. See, I could have generalized them too as you did.

It's unfair if you don't talk about feminism driven women of today and blame everything on men.

Edited by celestial

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Just now, Qa'im said:

And he (s) did that in a society that openly accepted polygamy. Had we lived in pre-colonial Islamic society, all of these women would find stable partners. Otherwise, I don't know how a middle-aged divorced woman with children can convince an established man to be his permanent one-and-only, especially if her ex is alive and visiting his kids regularly. In a monogamous model, most people (men and women) want a clean slate, especially if they are widely available. They'd rather stay single than deal with an older lady and someone else's children out of the goodness of their heart. Remember that there are probably more marriageable women than marriageable men, as men are most affected by suicide, poverty, war, violence, imprisonment, workplace injuries, and addiction. We have to be pious, but we also have to think practically.

I agree more or less with what you have said. The missing ingredient i perhaps over looked was polygamy, which allowed men to take on second wives. I will dispute the notion that the ratio is as skewed as that. It may not be the case in the UK, where i believe it is pretty much even.  Perhaps my priority is the community here in the UK, but globally you may have a point.

There is another dimension we need to address here - what about the women who are say, in their early 30's, who never see their husbands again and live in totally seperate countries, and the kids are the ones travelling, and not them, and are pretty fit, healthy, young looking, very pious, respected, intelligent?

I understand why for a woman in her 40's, with old kids, and her husband visiting, why it may be difficult, but what of the case i have suggested where actually, women get divorced fairly young due to husbands that are less than exemplary.

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16 hours ago, celestial said:

Well the divorced women who were married to the Prophet a.s. were not his only wives, Prophet practiced polygamy.

Now, would any of today's divorcee girls accept being a second wife to someone? If they do, then I'm open for them. I'll marry a virgin girl first, then marry one of them as a second wife. Let's see their response.

My personal experience with widows were awful. Most of them were gold-diggers. See, I could have generalized them too as you did.

It's unfair if you don't talk about feminism driven women of today and blame everything on men.

Right on mark.

I would add another one that most (not all), divorced women have given up on life. They are shabby, fat, negative, complainer, sitting their with their opinions of men without changing anything in them, physically, mentally, socially etc. They basically present themselves as a baggage instead of a partner who one would cherish.

There is a minority which does make an effort to be presentable (marriageable) and they do get married both in and outside of IndoPak culture.  

I'm saying this by observing many divorced women in family and friends.

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On 8/29/2016 at 7:09 AM, uponthesunnah said:

I must say this solemnly, indo-pak culture is perhaps one of the most brutal , backward, and intensely barbaric towards women in general.

Salam Uponthesunnah,

Many cultures have been cruel and brutal to women, including the English culture. It took women and men teaching their sons to treat women with respect before this began to change.

Quote

Sadly, it is infiltrated into many muslim communities. Women are also mistreated in other cultures too.

True. :(

Quote

It seems the christians and secularists have a far better record at treating women, and divorced women in paticular.

Even today, there are some Christian women who suffer horrible treatment and abuse at the hands of their husbands. Long time ago, they were not allowed to divorce a cruel husband, or at least not encouraged to do so. For example, my great Grandma was abused by her husband, my great Grandpa. He was a drunk and would beat her up. :( She was not encouraged by the Christian community to leave him.

However, more and more Christians of later generations have understood that God holds husbands accountable for how they treat their wives. If husbands are not protecting their wives but rather hurting them, the wives deserve to be protected from them. That's why many Christians have gotten involved in women's shelters and establishing refuge houses for girls and women to escape abuse.

Sadly, no religion or lack of religion (secularism) cures abuse and human rights violations. What does help is when people don't hide abuse but rather expose it and help rescue the people who are abused from their abusers.

Definitely it's awesome when abusers repent of their sins and change. However, that change needs to be monitored by people who hold them accountable, since it's so easy for some people to go back to their old ways.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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On 8/29/2016 at 10:34 AM, yolanda313786 said:

We shouldn't judge a whole race or nation of people because we have had bad experience with members of some specific race ,

Salam Yolanda313786,

100% agreed!!!

Quote

my husband who I'm in a mutah relationship with is a Pakistani-american and I'm dutch and he is so wonderful mashallah and alhumdulilah I'm so lucky to have someone as kind and beautiful and respecctful as him ,

I almost married a wonderful Sunni Muslim man from India who immigrated to the USA, and I felt the same way you do. :) He is a very kind and respectful gentleman - much kinder and more respectful than many Christian American, in my opinion 

Quote

but getting back to your post I understand what you mean about mutah being a taboo in countries like Pakistan because my husbands family members were against his desire to do mutah with me but after he sat them down and convinced them that in the eyes of God mutah is permissible they reluctantly accepted and now alhumdulilah after 5 months of going strong they are happy and this is all thanks to the mercy of God , at the end of the day we are all entitled to our opinion this was just my two cents , may you have blessed day :)

Well, Mutah is a "taboo" in the USA too, and I personally disagree with the practice. However, I'm glad you are happy. Would you like to permanently marry him someday, if God wills?

Peace and God bless you

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On 31/08/2016 at 7:02 AM, notme said:

If the women didn't agree to it, eventually the men would stop asking. 

Not all the blame should be on the men. 

The men would still keep asking  and the women often are told it's their only choice and last resort. As a man, i think 95% of the blame should be on us.

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On 30.8.2016 at 3:26 PM, Irfani313 said:

I would add another one that most (not all), divorced women have given up on life. They are shabby, fat, negative, complainer, sitting their with their opinions of men without changing anything in them, physically, mentally, socially etc.

You can say this about married women as well.I think.

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5 hours ago, mina said:

You can say this about married women as well.I think.

Agreed.

Although in married women case, they have their husbands. But yes they do need to up their game, because a wife who does not attract her husband risks her husband to seek other ways. Unfortunately unlike in the past, the opportunities to do sin are plenty and are available risk and cost free.

As far as divorced women (many, not all), I see them to be nothing that a man would want in a wife no matter if he is old or young, leaving the ground open for younger women who at the moment do look and act attractive. 

Among my friends, I personally know a few good single momin men (in their late 30s) who wanted to marry someone older, wiser, stable, and experienced, even if she is with kids, but ended up not marrying yet or in couple of cases, marrying much younger girls because there were zero, yes zero positive, attractive, and desirable prospects available among the divorced women pool, which unfortunately is growing by hour.  

 

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On 9/2/2016 at 7:05 AM, uponthesunnah said:

The men would still keep asking  and the women often are told it's their only choice and last resort. As a man, i think 95% of the blame should be on us.

I disagree brother, in cases of marriage rejections, women are more to blame than men. I know countless women who in search of better than best, lose out on age and good prospects and end up marrying the most bottom feeders of men.

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On August 29, 2016 at 11:08 AM, FreeSpirit said:

@uponthesunnah, thank you so much for raising the plight of divorced women with children, like myself.  It is a terrible position to find yourself in, and yes, even your own family members will mistreat you, so forget about society at large.

Idk what the long term solution is, but it's awful to be rejected for marriage proposals because you are divorced/with children.  It's like we've got the plague. 

If you've been single for some time, people make assumptions about you, that perhaps you've been seeing someone.  That's the worst part, when people assume these things or insinuate them in conversation. 

Divorced women are just fine 

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On September 4, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Irfani313 said:

Agreed.

Although in married women case, they have their husbands. But yes they do need to up their game, because a wife who does not attract her husband risks her husband to seek other ways. Unfortunately unlike in the past, the opportunities to do sin are plenty and are available risk and cost free.

As far as divorced women (many, not all), I see them to be nothing that a man would want in a wife no matter if he is old or young, leaving the ground open for younger women who at the moment do look and act attractive. 

Women have less time to take care of themselves. They do most of the house-work and then they have responsibilities towards their in-laws. While men spend all their time taking care of themselves or relaxing. Marriage is not about looks. It's about responsibilities. Raising a kid is not easy. If a man thinks that a woman who has proven herself to be responsible, patient, smart and highly skilled by raising a kid has no quality, while a young, immature, silly young girl is better (who is only happy because she hasn't dealt with abuse and she has nothing to do) then it's his loss. He can go ahead and marry the young girl, she will have same problems in 3 or 4 years. Char din ki chandni phir andheri Raat. Men usually find all na-mehram women attractive. It doesn't matter if they are better looking than their wives or not. Alhamdulillah Muslim women are so strong that a man not wanting to marry them is the least of their problems. But yes it's a problem for married women if their husbands don't find them attractive because constant abuse can break even a strong person. 

Edited by rkazmi33

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