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In the Name of God بسم الله

Could a Woman be President of Iran?

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Salam. According to a news story that I read, the Iranian Constitution "says the president will be elected from religious-political men, or "rijal," a plural for man in Arabic that is common in Farsi, too." There have been female vice presidents. 

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44 minutes ago, hameedeh said:

Salam. According to a news story that I read, the Iranian Constitution "says the president will be elected from religious-political men, or "rijal," a plural for man in Arabic that is common in Farsi, too." There have been female vice presidents. 

So its definetly not possible ?

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@hameedeh

Her highness the princesses and mother of Momineen Hadhart Zainab (as) was equally brave as Ghazi Abbas (as) and Mola Ali (as) himself... It was her who led the ultimate rebellion against the Ummayad Dnynasty., and tore it apart with her single speech... So why can't a woman, the true follower of her (as) can't be President, that would be beyond my comprehension. 

Edited by ZainHaider
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4 hours ago, ZainHaider said:

@hameedeh

Her highness the princesses and mother of Momineen Hadhart Zainab (as) was equally brave as Ghazi Abbas (as) and Mola Ali (as) himself... It was her who led the ultimate rebellion against the Ummayad Dnynasty., and tore it apart with her single speech... So why can't a woman, the true follower of her (as) can't be President, that would be beyond my comprehension. 

So what would you say to the fact that our Fiqh says women cannot be a Qadhi for example? 

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1 hour ago, The Batman said:

So what would you say to the fact that our Fiqh says women cannot be a Qadhi for example? 

Qadi = Prisoner... why she can't ... if she commits murder, robbery., why she can't be a prisoner... Prisoner of War is different than Prisoner of Crime??? I guess you are confusing the both there am I right?

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3 minutes ago, ZainHaider said:

Qadi = Prisoner... why she can't ... if she commits murder, robbery., why she can't be a prisoner... Prisoner of War is different than Prisoner of Crime??? I guess you are confusing the both there am I right?

Qadhi = Judge, my friend.

In this context I mean an Islamic Shar'i Judge.

Edited by The Batman
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Fiqah is not WahiUllah., it's still open to interpretation, I am not saying it's wrong regarding the matter of religious Judge... also... it's not easy to discuss the whole issue without the entire context of that given ruling... there is always solid reason... Also again., I guess Fiqah is always evolving.... Religion does not.... I have no clue what exactly the reason why our Fiqah would ban women from being religious Judge... do you know the context???

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9 hours ago, alidu78 said:

So its definetly not possible ?

The Holy Qu'ran Surah 27 mentions a Queen in a position of power during the time of Hadhrat Sulayman (Solomon), and Iranian women have held the title of queen and empress. In modern time, there has been criticism of female leaders in other countries, although I won't go into the difference between head of state and head of government. Basically, Iranian men would say, "What? Is there no man in the whole country who can be our president?" A female president would be an embarrassment for their cultural upbringing. 

8 hours ago, alidu78 said:

Excepted judge and president what jobs iranian women cant do already ?

Although female judges in Iran do not preside over criminal cases, they handle civil cases, especially divorce court. 

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On 8/27/2016 at 2:13 PM, hameedeh said:

Although female judges in Iran do not preside over criminal cases, they handle civil cases, especially divorce court. 

So excepted that iranian women could do the other jobs ?

for exemple could they work in army ?

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Hello

according to a translation, article 115 of Iran 's constitution states:

The President must be elected from among religious and political personalities possessing the following qualifications: Iranian origin; Iranian nationality; administrative capacity and resourcefulness; a good past-record; trustworthiness and piety; convinced belief in the fundamental principles of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the official religion of the country.

But instead of personalities in original text says: Rijal (Arabic word) that means Men. There are two views in this issue. Some experts say there is not any prohibition for women to be elected as the President of Iran and Rijal means personalities and some say that they can not be a president.

It is necessary to mention, from the beginning, it has been a debate between Assembly of Experts for Constitution -which was elected in the summer of 1979 to write a new constitution for the Islamic Republic of Iran- about existence of word men and finally they decided to write Rijal to have an open discussion among jurists. (1)

By the way in Iran there is another institution called The Guardian Council of the Constitution which its duty is interpretation of constitution. They haven't interpreted this term since the approval time. Its spokesperson states: The Guardian Council never interpreted this term and GC does not have any especial comment about it. Thus there is no prohibition for them to take part in presidential election as a candidate. But if they did not qualify, it is because of their disqualifications, not anything else, like other registrar in this process. (2)

  1. http://pasokhgoo.ir/node/50189

  2. http://alef.ir/vdcir5a5.t1apq2bcct.html?43462

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11 hours ago, notme said:

I thought that women are not allowed to be a religious judge, but are allowed to hold a leadership office in secular affairs such as a national presidency?  Is my interpretation flawed?

That's assuming that the Sharia allows for people in general, men or women, to be in positions of power in secular governments.

Edited by The Batman
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5 hours ago, The Batman said:

That's assuming that the Sharia allows for people in general, men or women, to be in positions of power in secular governments.

When I say "secular affairs" I'm not saying it's a secular government. I mean as opposed to religious affairs. One does not need to be a religious leader to be a president of a nation. 

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14 minutes ago, notme said:

When I say "secular affairs" I'm not saying it's a secular government. I mean as opposed to religious affairs. One does not need to be a religious leader to be a president of a nation. 

Let me re-phrase it. Does the Sharia allow involvement in secular affairs?

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On 8/28/2016 at 4:34 AM, The Batman said:

Let me re-phrase it. Does the Sharia allow involvement in secular affairs?

As in, for example, medicine, literature, science? Yes, definitely. But I think what you are really asking is whether Sharia allows participation in any government which isn't led by our Imam. I don't know the rulings, but it seems to me that if Muslims are prohibited from leading communities, the only other option would be to place ourselves under the authority of non-Muslims. Therefore, it seems necessary that Muslims be allowed to participate in secular legal and governmental affairs.

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On 8/28/2016 at 6:03 AM, notme said:

As in, for example, medicine, literature, science? Yes, definitely. But I think what you are really asking is whether Sharia allows participation in any government which isn't led by our Imam. I don't know the rulings, but it seems to me that if Muslims are prohibited from leading communities, the only other option would be to place ourselves under the authority of non-Muslims. Therefore, it seems necessary that Muslims be allowed to participate in secular legal and governmental affairs.

Close, but what I was saying is, for example, are we allowed to work for governments that are completely secular? For example, in many countries there is Sharia in the land, but I was focusing really on the completely secular and unIslamic countries such as France and the USA. Can a Muslim for example be a Congressman?

In anyway, I found the answer here (atleast according to Sistani):

Quote

231. At times the higher interests of the Muslims in non-Muslim countries demand that Muslims seek membership of political parties, enter parliaments, and representative assemblies. In such cases, it is permissible for Muslims to engage in such activities as much as is demanded by the interest [of the Muslim community] that must be identified by consulting the trustworthy experts.

https://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani/dealing-laws-non-muslim-countries

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On 8/27/2016 at 2:13 PM, Hameedeh said:

Although female judges in Iran do not preside over criminal cases, they handle civil cases, especially divorce court. 

This is true. There are hundreds of female "dadyars" دادیار in Iran but they work as the judges' advisors.

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In many cases, societies behaviour towards certain realities is way more imposing than law itself.

So the question should emphasize that we are legally speaking. Technically, as @Sumerian said, within Islam, women aren't mean to be social public leaders. In an Islamic government there can be (and is) room for secular affairs, but holding a political leading position is not one of them (being a counsellor or holding a lower non leading position is).

This can somehow clash with how we understand democracy, though, as one recurring problem within ME politics is that there are too many more male figures speaking about women affairs than women themselves. Thus, there is need for female political leaders that are real competitors for leading political positions.

One should take into account that there have never been an Islamic democracy back in the day, and a leader was not seen as we understand it today. The way democracy works demands for female political leaders, which is different from the idea of leader within Medieval Islamic societies. This is one of the points I think that matters when we talk about Islam's position of female leaders, and why it shouldn't apply when it comes to democracies, where the leader is mostly a representative of people's will.

Edited by Bakir
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I don't think women should be judges at all. They are just not suitable for it. Perhaps a tiiiiiny few are, but the vast majority no.

I don't even understand why a woman would want to be a judge. Isn't life complicated enough already. I'd leave the headache to the men and go about enjoying my life. 

My opinion.

Edited by Carlzone
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The way I see it, what makes a good judge or whatever public position is education and expertise, not testosterone.

I paraphrased the other day one of those figures that really elevates this religion, and who worked as a qadi as well during his life, and that is Ibn Rushd (lived in the 12th century): "Much of the poverty and distress of the times arises from the fact that women are kept like domestic animals or house plants for purposes of gratification, ofa very questionable character besides, instead of being allowed to take part in the production of material and intellectual wealth, and the preservation of the same".

His advanced reasoning leaded him to be accussed of promoting a secular government, ignoring all his studies in Islam. As always tend to happen with the islamic community a few decades after the death of the prophet, the voice of reason and knowledge is silenced in favour of bigotry and pure stupidity, and in the name of Islam, of course. Don't fool yourself, it is this prodecution of intellectuals and reasoning what marked the decline of the islamic empire and the poverty, wars, lack of education that came afterwards and is still present.

For those who have studied Ibn Rushd, it is well known he was among the few who have wrote about islamic governance from a philosophical and reasoned perspective. He was not secular, but using the head that God gave you seems to be a synonym for secularism.

Edited by Bakir
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5 hours ago, Bakir said:

The way I see it, what makes a good judge or whatever public position is education and expertise, not testosterone

being a judge is a hard work even for men ,most of men are not capable enough for being judge or leader , how we can expect that women can take these position when most of them don't have capabilities near to these men that i mentioned  here , Ibn Rushd talks about sunni communities traditions & behaviors that is not compatible with Shia doctrine.  

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10 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

and they also can't be guardian councils? 

they can be a part of it as term of Rijal defined in law but it includes both women & men not just men only exception is about Judging & being supreme leader .

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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

being a judge is a hard work even for men ,most of men are not capable enough for being judge or leader , how we can expect that women can take these position when most of them don't have capabilities near to these men that i mentioned  here , Ibn Rushd talks about sunni communities traditions & behaviors that is not compatible with Shia doctrine.  

Expected such a commentary to discard Ibn Rushd from this conversation... Anyway.

What are these capabilities that require such a high level of testosterone?

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On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 6:47 AM, alidu78 said:

@Ashvazdanghe @shadow_of_light and they also can't be guardian councils? 

l'd like to read more from "shadow".

From my understanding, a new impetus for women judges came after the Ariana disaster. That was sad.

OPINE: From my understanding, the 1/2 witness and 1/2 inheritress is extrapolated into "women less capable", which is not in Quran or Sunnah. For Ahyl'bait l do not know. So what is the reasoning(logic)????

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On 10/9/2018 at 3:33 PM, Bakir said:

What are these capabilities that require such a high level of testosterone?

The shia islam talks about duty not testosteron for example many women from ahlulbayt  (as) family such as lady Zaynat & wifes of Imams from time of Imam kadhim (as) were point of reference of  oth men & women of shias  for asking their questions & getting answrers in every field , 

Ibn rushd just considerd sunni communities & completly  neglected  position of women in shia communities  thus his ideas has many flaws 

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On 10/9/2018 at 2:03 PM, Bakir said:

being a judge is a hard work even for men ,most of men are not capable enough for being judge or leader , how we can expect that women can take these position when most of them don't have capabilities near to these men that i mentioned  here

The wording used here doesn't seem to imply we are talking about different duties/roles, but capabilities.

I mean, an objective reading of the above paragraph imply that women lack the abilities present in men that make a good judge. Duties are not the same as capabilities. A regular traditional family may impose a role for women to stay at home caring for the kids and the man working and bringing money home. The thing is that a man can perfectly take care of the home and kids and the woman can perfectly work and make a living out of her work. Thus, we may hold different duties, but that doesn't mean we are not capable.

It is unjust (not to say chauvinist) to believe women are less capable of being a judge just because they don't hold such a duty/role in an islamic society. Are they weak, less intelligent, or what? It is, one more time, one of those cases in which we try to force an explanation behind what we understand from islamic texts.

In any case, you definitely changed the wording in your last post and that is okay. I just don't want you to miss my point regarding your previous one and what I did find weird.

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1 hour ago, Bakir said:

that women lack the abilities

Do females lack the abilities to do accounting?

Do they lack the abilities to be doctors?

Do they lack the abilities to run corporations?

Similar to accounting, law is in its application, not  in its arbitrariness.

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2 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Do females lack the abilities to do accounting?

Do they lack the abilities to be doctors?

Do they lack the abilities to run corporations?

Similar to accounting, law is in its application, not  in its arbitrariness.

Is this post directed to me? Because honestly it makes no sense given that I was precisely defending that they lack no abilities to be a good judge. Seriously guys, read.

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2 hours ago, Bakir said:

Is this post directed to me? Because honestly it makes no sense given that I was precisely defending that they lack no abilities to be a good judge. Seriously guys, read.

Once you posted the intended theme of the-referred-to-post it correlates. Without it l inferred the other.

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