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The Religion of the Prophet's ancestors

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Do all Sunnis believe the Prophet's ancestors were kafir (astigfirullah)?

Shias believe they followed the religion of Ibrhim.

2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I suppose that's another conversation regarding Abu Talib,   I personally didn't know that there are differences of opinion regarding the faith of Abu Talib.

I don't know what was in his heart, surely only Allah swt knows.  Forgive my assumption as I've only based it on the lack of reporting of his taking of the Shahadah.  It may very well he  had faith in his nephews prophecy and believed, silently to protect him, though many could also argue his conversion may have helped smooth transition of the Meccans to accept God's message.  Only Allah swt knows.

 I've not come across any hadith in regards to when Abu Talib took the Shahadah even upon his death bed, but perhaps the narrations I've read were lacking ?  As I said, before I'm dubious of many hadith, I'm open to reading other sources.

I don't know if you all know about the prophet's SAW grandfather Abdul Mutallib having draw lots to not sacrifice the prophets father , but you may not believe the historical resources /hadith concerning this history.  It would seem you would not given your stance on Abu Talib's faith. 

 

But the prophet's father  was to be sacrificed after Abdul Mutallib vowed upon digging /protecting the well of zam zam,  where he wanted 10 sons and to sacrifice the 10th depending on divination arrows, which was a highly common pagan practice in Jahillyia Arabia, he then consulted a sorceress to cast lots with camels (another pagan practice)  and keeping adding 10 camels everytime Abdullah ibn Abdul Mutallib  was chosen.    Until 100 camels were reached, they were chosen to he sacrificed instead, the test was also repeated 3 times.

I take it the shia take this story to he rubbish? (I'm not arguing if it is authentic just want to know what the shia make of it so I can understand )

If this is the case then I can understand and why you would believe Abu Talib was a muslim indeed.  

Otherwise it would seem Abu Talib would have been a pagan by default considering his father's influence and deeds.  But I wouldn't be hasty to make this conclusion as I'm skeptical of many hadiths.  I don't personally have a position on this issue.

 

I just want to see the shia perspective and their rationales so I can understand.

My personal position is ones ability to be muslim or not is solely between Allah swt and them, and my capacity to be a muslim shouldn't be impacted by that.

@wmehar2   - better to continue this here.

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أَلَمْ تَرَ كَيْفَ فَعَلَ رَبُّكَ بِأَصْحَابِ الْفِيلِ {1}

[Pickthal 105:1] Hast thou not seen how thy Lord dealt with the owners of the Elephant?
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 105:1]

This surah refers to an incident in the history of Makka, as an example of how Allah deals with those who oppose His will. About fifty days before the birth of the Holy Prophet, Abraha, the Abyssinia's viceroy of Yemen, Christian by religion, proceeded against Makka, as the head of a large army, with the object of destroying the Ka-bah, because he wanted that there should be no place or structure more glorious than the church he was building at Sana. He had with him elephants. Therefore he and his army is known as ashab al fil, those who brought elephants. At the outskirts of Makka he captured a large number of camels belonging to the chief of Makka, Abd al Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet. After receiving the information that Abraha was coming to destroy the holy Ka-bah, Abd al Muttalib went to see him and said:

"I have come to collect my camels. The Ka-bah belongs to God. He will surely protect it from your evil design."

Abraha gave the captured camels to Abd al Muttalib He returned to the city and asked the people to retire to the neighbouring hills, leaving the Lord of Ka-bah to protect it. When Abraha entered Makka, suddenly a large flock of birds, like swallows, came flying from the sea-coast and pelted the invading army with pebbles of baked clay. They all died. They were like a dead and useless field from which all the produce is eaten up and only straw with stubble is left. Abraha escaped and went directly to the king in Abyssinia. All the way a bird with a stone in her beak followed him. When the king asked Abraha as to what kind of birds they were, Abraha looked to the sky and the bird at once dropped stone in her beak and killed him on the spot.

The lesson to be drawn is twofold. The pagans of Makka were forewarned that as the Holy Prophet was superior to the Ka-bah, Allah, who protects whatever is His own, shall protect him from all their evil schemes. It is also a warning to men in all ages that "if a man intoxicated with power comes out to defeat Allah's holy plan, he cannot prevail against Allah, but his plan will fail and destroy him as well."

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The event narrated in this surah is a miracle. It proves the sanctity of the Ka-bah and the strong faith of Abd al Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet, in Allah. When this chapter of the Quran was recited by the Holy Prophet before the Quraysh unbelievers no one raised any voice to belie him.

Refer to the commentary of chapters ad Duha and al Inshirah for the inter-relation of those two chapters and of al Fil and al Quraysh, the next chapter.

The faith of Abd al Muttalib in the oneness of Allah is proved by his following supplication:

O Lord, there is no hope (of receiving help from any quarter) to stop them (Abraha's army) save from You,

O Lord, therefore do not let them have Your protection because he who is the enemy of Your house is Your enemy,

Verily they (the enemies whoever they are) cannot defeat Your power. 

أَلَمْ يَجْعَلْ كَيْدَهُمْ فِي تَضْلِيلٍ {2}

[Pickthal 105:2] Did He not bring their stratagem to naught,
 

وَأَرْسَلَ عَلَيْهِمْ طَيْرًا أَبَابِيلَ {3}

[Pickthal 105:3] And send against them swarms of flying creatures,
 

تَرْمِيهِمْ بِحِجَارَةٍ مِنْ سِجِّيلٍ {4}

[Pickthal 105:4] Which pelted them with stones of baked clay,
 

فَجَعَلَهُمْ كَعَصْفٍ مَأْكُولٍ {5}

[Pickthal 105:5] And made them like green crops devoured (by cattle)?
 

http://quran.al-islam.org/

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30 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

The faith of Abd al Muttalib in the oneness of Allah is proved by his following supplication:

O Lord, there is no hope (of receiving help from any quarter) to stop them (Abraha's army) save from You,

O Lord, therefore do not let them have Your protection because he who is the enemy of Your house is Your enemy,

Verily they (the enemies whoever they are) cannot defeat Your power. 

Yup. Agreed.

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2 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Do all Sunnis believe the Prophet's ancestors were kafir (astigfirullah)?

Shias believe they followed the religion of Ibrhim.

 

@wmehar2   - better to continue this here.

I think its going too far to say all Sunni's believe ALL the Prophet's ancestors were Kaffirs, but I've been separated from the Sunni fold by their doing. 

Certainly, a vast majority of the Prophet's ancestors SAW, were kuffirs, undeniably if you follow the logic that we are all descended from Adam AS.

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1 hour ago, S.M.H.A. said:

أَلَمْ تَرَ كَيْفَ فَعَلَ رَبُّكَ بِأَصْحَابِ الْفِيلِ {1}

[Pickthal 105:1] Hast thou not seen how thy Lord dealt with the owners of the Elephant?
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 105:1]

This surah refers to an incident in the history of Makka, as an example of how Allah deals with those who oppose His will. About fifty days before the birth of the Holy Prophet, Abraha, the Abyssinia's viceroy of Yemen, Christian by religion, proceeded against Makka, as the head of a large army, with the object of destroying the Ka-bah, because he wanted that there should be no place or structure more glorious than the church he was building at Sana. He had with him elephants. Therefore he and his army is known as ashab al fil, those who brought elephants. At the outskirts of Makka he captured a large number of camels belonging to the chief of Makka, Abd al Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet. After receiving the information that Abraha was coming to destroy the holy Ka-bah, Abd al Muttalib went to see him and said:

"I have come to collect my camels. The Ka-bah belongs to God. He will surely protect it from your evil design."

Abraha gave the captured camels to Abd al Muttalib He returned to the city and asked the people to retire to the neighbouring hills, leaving the Lord of Ka-bah to protect it. When Abraha entered Makka, suddenly a large flock of birds, like swallows, came flying from the sea-coast and pelted the invading army with pebbles of baked clay. They all died. They were like a dead and useless field from which all the produce is eaten up and only straw with stubble is left. Abraha escaped and went directly to the king in Abyssinia. All the way a bird with a stone in her beak followed him. When the king asked Abraha as to what kind of birds they were, Abraha looked to the sky and the bird at once dropped stone in her beak and killed him on the spot.

The lesson to be drawn is twofold. The pagans of Makka were forewarned that as the Holy Prophet was superior to the Ka-bah, Allah, who protects whatever is His own, shall protect him from all their evil schemes. It is also a warning to men in all ages that "if a man intoxicated with power comes out to defeat Allah's holy plan, he cannot prevail against Allah, but his plan will fail and destroy him as well."

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The event narrated in this surah is a miracle. It proves the sanctity of the Ka-bah and the strong faith of Abd al Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet, in Allah. When this chapter of the Quran was recited by the Holy Prophet before the Quraysh unbelievers no one raised any voice to belie him.

Refer to the commentary of chapters ad Duha and al Inshirah for the inter-relation of those two chapters and of al Fil and al Quraysh, the next chapter.

The faith of Abd al Muttalib in the oneness of Allah is proved by his following supplication:

O Lord, there is no hope (of receiving help from any quarter) to stop them (Abraha's army) save from You,

O Lord, therefore do not let them have Your protection because he who is the enemy of Your house is Your enemy,

Verily they (the enemies whoever they are) cannot defeat Your power. 

أَلَمْ يَجْعَلْ كَيْدَهُمْ فِي تَضْلِيلٍ {2}

[Pickthal 105:2] Did He not bring their stratagem to naught,
 

وَأَرْسَلَ عَلَيْهِمْ طَيْرًا أَبَابِيلَ {3}

[Pickthal 105:3] And send against them swarms of flying creatures,
 

تَرْمِيهِمْ بِحِجَارَةٍ مِنْ سِجِّيلٍ {4}

[Pickthal 105:4] Which pelted them with stones of baked clay,
 

فَجَعَلَهُمْ كَعَصْفٍ مَأْكُولٍ {5}

[Pickthal 105:5] And made them like green crops devoured (by cattle)?
 

http://quran.al-islam.org/

But weren't these Idols all worshipped in Addition to Allah SWT?  I was under the impression that historically, all of the Makkans already believed in Allah SWT (and before they were Makkans, they were from Qedar in northern ARabia before Nebudchanezzar killed Adnan and displaced the Adnan clan) but have picked up and deviated and added "Gods" or other idols with time.   Ibrahim AS, and other Prophet's were well known to the people of Makkah, despite their paganistic influences. 

Given this, I'm not able to confirm if whether Abudl Mutalib was one of Ibrahims faith in its originality.

Queen Zabibe of the Qedars is very well documented, though the Qedar/Nebataeans (tribes descending form the Son's of Ismael AS) practiced paganistic/idol worship in 600 BC in the time of Adnan.  Before Ma'ad ibn Adnan relocated the Qedar/Nabateans to the Hijaz. 

These peoples maintained much of their history in regards to their descent and knew they were descended from Ibrahim AS, as their tribal names were from his son's.  AFter relocating to the Hijaz, they became eventually the Quraysh.   Fihr al Quraysh is the 10th/11th great grandfather of all members of the Quraysh and is the progenitor of the tribe/clan.

Fihr is counted among the direct ancestors of Muhammad.[1]:3 In the lineage of Muhammad from Adnan, Fihr precedes Muhammad by eleven generations.[1]:3

He is also known as "Fihr AlQuraish" or the Progenitor of the Banu Quraysh Tribe which was the dominant tribe not only in the Hijaz region but in the whole Arabian peninsula as well. In Classical Arabic the word "Quraysh" meant Whale/Shark/any big fish perhaps because he had a big personality among his tribesmen.

Fihr defended Mecca against the Himyarite King of Yemen who wanted transfer Kaaba to Yemen.[1]:41 A sharp engagement followed in which Himyar were defeated, and their King Hassan was taken prisoner by Fihr for two years until he paid his ransom.[1]

He is the common ancestor of all Quraysh.

see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qedarite

 

With all due respect, in the time of Adnan in 600 BC, the Qedar (pre Quraysh) and the Nabataens (allies and cousins of Qedar) started including /adopting ancient persian forms of worship (because of their proximity).  But they never forgot who they were or where they came from.  Its quite a fascinating read on the history of the Tribes/and Arabs if you get free time.

 

It kind of pains me to say this, but you guys and me are not ignorant of the fact the Kaaba was destroyed numerous times after the passing of our Prophet SAW, right?  It wasn't defended by birds or anything of that nature during those occurrences.  Which to me highlights the fact the Kaaba, is just made of creation,clay, brick, and ingredients that may be re-purposed.   The reason we all pray there is the real shining gold/light that can't be destroyed.

Edited by wmehar2

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

But weren't these Idols all worshipped in Addition to Allah SWT?  I was under the impression that historically, all of the Makkans already believed in Allah SWT (and before they were Makkans, they were from Qedar in northern ARabia before Nebudchanezzar killed Adnan and displaced the Adnan clan) but have picked up and deviated and added "Gods" or other idols with time.   Ibrahim AS, and other Prophet's were well known to the people of Makkah, despite their paganistic influences. 

Given this, I'm not able to confirm if whether Abudl Mutalib was one of Ibrahims faith in its originality.

Queen Zabibe of the Qedars is very well documented, though the Qedar/Nebataeans (tribes descending form the Son's of Ismael AS) practiced paganistic/idol worship in 600 BC in the time of Adnan.  Before Ma'ad ibn Adnan relocated the Qedar/Nabateans to the Hijaz. 

These peoples maintained much of their history in regards to their descent and knew they were descended from Ibrahim AS, as their tribal names were from his son's.  AFter relocating to the Hijaz, they became eventually the Quraysh.   Fihr al Quraysh is the 10th/11th great grandfather of all members of the Quraysh and is the progenitor of the tribe/clan.

Fihr is counted among the direct ancestors of Muhammad.[1]:3 In the lineage of Muhammad from Adnan, Fihr precedes Muhammad by eleven generations.[1]:3

He is also known as "Fihr AlQuraish" or the Progenitor of the Banu Quraysh Tribe which was the dominant tribe not only in the Hijaz region but in the whole Arabian peninsula as well. In Classical Arabic the word "Quraysh" meant Whale/Shark/any big fish perhaps because he had a big personality among his tribesmen.

Fihr defended Mecca against the Himyarite King of Yemen who wanted transfer Kaaba to Yemen.[1]:41 A sharp engagement followed in which Himyar were defeated, and their King Hassan was taken prisoner by Fihr for two years until he paid his ransom.[1]

He is the common ancestor of all Quraysh.

see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qedarite

 

With all due respect, in the time of Adnan in 600 BC, the Qedar (pre Quraysh) and the Nabataens (allies and cousins of Qedar) started including /adopting ancient persian forms of worship (because of their proximity).  But they never forgot who they were or where they came from.  Its quite a fascinating read on the history of the Tribes/and Arabs if you get free time.

 

It kind of pains me to say this, but you guys and me are not ignorant of the fact the Kaaba was destroyed numerous times after the passing of our Prophet SAW, right?  It wasn't defended by birds or anything of that nature during those occurrences.  Which to me highlights the fact the Kaaba, is just made of creation,clay, brick, and ingredients that may be re-purposed.   The reason we all pray there is the real shining gold/light that can't be destroyed.

Sure enough not everyone was a Muslim because we have examples such as Abu Jahl and Co. 

However we say from Prophet directly up to Ismail were all believers in 1 God. Muhammad » Abdullah » Abdul Mutallib » etc...

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24 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Sure enough not everyone was a Muslim because we have examples such as Abu Jahl and Co. 

However we say from Prophet directly up to Ismail were all believers in 1 God. Muhammad » Abdullah » Abdul Mutallib » etc...

Are there any other sources to confirm this?   Other than what was shown here?

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22 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Will provide next week inshallah.

@wmehar2:

Salaam.

 

Please read this when you get a chance.

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-2-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/ancestry-holy-prophet-s-and-circumstances-his

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