Understanding Shia' perspective

[wmehar2]

Assalaaam'alikum everyone, thanks for reading.

 

I've been up all night and slouching at work pondering this.   The Shia' side of Islam purposes that our Prophet SAW was infallible and acted out Islam (which I agree with from an infallible perspective that the Prophet never intentionally committed a wrong or sinful act and therefore has not), before it was revealed since his birth correctly its true form..., (im not sure if this is extended to the imams as well it seems so)

 

But don't these verses sort of contradict this?  Unless I'm wrong on that perspective, please correct me if I'm wrong.   I'm only basing this from what Ive heard interacting with others here and its possible i've misunderstood.

 

46:9

Say, "I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner."

10:15

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it." Say, [O Muhammad], "It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."

7:203

And when you, [O Muhammad], do not bring them a sign, they say, "Why have you not contrived it?" Say, "I only follow what is revealed to me from my Lord. This [Qur'an] is enlightenment from your Lord and guidance and mercy for a people who believe."

6:50

Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not tell you that I have the depositories [containing the provision] of Allah or that I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me." Say, "Is the blind equivalent to the seeing? Then will you not give thought?"

 

I mean unless i've misunderstood or someone misspoke,  These verses seem to directly go against the idea that the Prophet SAW lived and exemplified the Qu'ran/God's Laws prior to their revelation.   A recurring theme, amazingly Sub'an Allah, where he says "I only follow what is revealed to me", no one in that time seems to pick up on the Prophet SAW living or exemplifying Islamic manifestations prior to revelation and brings it up...   Being unaware of God's message doesn't give capacity to one to sin, of course.

and to a lesser extent, these verses:

118:10

Say, "I am only a man like you, to whom has been revealed that your god is one God. So whoever would hope for the meeting with his Lord - let him do righteous work and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone."

 

27:65

Say, "None in the heavens and earth knows the unseen except Allah , and they do not perceive when they will be resurrected."

-The Qur'an was Unseen before the Prophet's SAW birth. was it not?

Thoughts?  commentS?  Advice? Suggestions?

[humanbeing101]

I think Quran is trying to make Rasuallah relateable to the odinary man that faces difficulties when it comes to sinnng. Whence this part

" I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."

 

 

[S.M.H.A.]

11 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I mean unless i've misunderstood or someone misspoke,  These verses seem to directly go against the idea that the Prophet SAW lived and exemplified the Qu'ran/God's Laws prior to their revelation.  

Mother of Prophet Musa(as)

[Pickthal 28:7] And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers.

*****

Mother of Mary(as)

[Pickthal 3:35] (Remember) when the wife of 'Imran said: My Lord! I have vowed unto Thee that which is in my belly as a consecrated (offering). Accept it from me. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower!

[Pickthal 3:36] And when she was delivered she said: My Lord! Lo! I am delivered of a female - Allah knew best of what she was delivered - the male is not as the female; and lo! I have named her Mary, and lo! I crave Thy protection for her and for her offspring from Satan the outcast.

[Pickthal 3:37] And her Lord accepted her with full acceptance and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth; and made Zachariah her guardian. Whenever Zachariah went into the sanctuary where she was, he found that she had food. He said: O Mary! Whence cometh unto thee this (food)? She answered: It is from Allah. Allah giveth without stint to whom He will.

*****

Prophet Zachariah(as) father of Yahya(as) John the Baptist

[Pickthal 19:7] (It was said unto him): O Zachariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him).

[Pickthal 19:8] He said: My Lord! How can I have a son when my wife is barren and I have reached infirm old age?

[Pickthal 19:9] He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me, even as I created thee before, when thou wast naught.

[Pickthal 19:10] He said: My Lord! Appoint for me some token. He said: Thy token is that thou, with no bodily defect, shalt not speak unto mankind three nights.

[Pickthal 19:11] Then he came forth unto his people from the sanctuary, and signified to them: Glorify your Lord at break of day and fall of night.

[Pickthal 19:12] (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And we gave him wisdom when a child,

[Pickthal 19:13] And compassion from Our presence, and purity; and he was devout,

[Pickthal 19:14] And dutiful toward his parents. And he was not arrogant, rebellious.

[Pickthal 19:15] Peace on him the day he was born, and the day he dieth and the day he shall be raised alive!

*****

Mary(as) ,Mother of Prophet Isa(as)

[Pickthal 19:27] Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.

[Pickthal 19:28] O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.

[Pickthal 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

[Pickthal 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

[Pickthal 19:31] And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,

[Pickthal 19:32] And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.

[Pickthal 19:33] Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!

[Pickthal 19:34] Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

*****

Based on above, do you think, The tradition of Allah(awj) changed, and he went looking for a Prophet among the Arabs and found a man in 40's and sent him and Angel? 

[wmehar2]

1 hour ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Mother of Prophet Musa(as)

[Pickthal 28:7] And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers.

*****

Mother of Mary(as)

[Pickthal 3:35] (Remember) when the wife of 'Imran said: My Lord! I have vowed unto Thee that which is in my belly as a consecrated (offering). Accept it from me. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower!

[Pickthal 3:36] And when she was delivered she said: My Lord! Lo! I am delivered of a female - Allah knew best of what she was delivered - the male is not as the female; and lo! I have named her Mary, and lo! I crave Thy protection for her and for her offspring from Satan the outcast.

[Pickthal 3:37] And her Lord accepted her with full acceptance and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth; and made Zachariah her guardian. Whenever Zachariah went into the sanctuary where she was, he found that she had food. He said: O Mary! Whence cometh unto thee this (food)? She answered: It is from Allah. Allah giveth without stint to whom He will.

*****

Prophet Zachariah(as) father of Yahya(as) John the Baptist

[Pickthal 19:7] (It was said unto him): O Zachariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him).

[Pickthal 19:8] He said: My Lord! How can I have a son when my wife is barren and I have reached infirm old age?

[Pickthal 19:9] He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me, even as I created thee before, when thou wast naught.

[Pickthal 19:10] He said: My Lord! Appoint for me some token. He said: Thy token is that thou, with no bodily defect, shalt not speak unto mankind three nights.

[Pickthal 19:11] Then he came forth unto his people from the sanctuary, and signified to them: Glorify your Lord at break of day and fall of night.

[Pickthal 19:12] (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And we gave him wisdom when a child,

[Pickthal 19:13] And compassion from Our presence, and purity; and he was devout,

[Pickthal 19:14] And dutiful toward his parents. And he was not arrogant, rebellious.

[Pickthal 19:15] Peace on him the day he was born, and the day he dieth and the day he shall be raised alive!

*****

Mary(as) ,Mother of Prophet Isa(as)

[Pickthal 19:27] Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.

[Pickthal 19:28] O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.

[Pickthal 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

[Pickthal 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

[Pickthal 19:31] And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,

[Pickthal 19:32] And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.

[Pickthal 19:33] Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!

[Pickthal 19:34] Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

*****

Based on above, do you think, The tradition of Allah(awj) changed, and he went looking for a Prophet among the Arabs and found a man in 40's and sent him and Angel? 

Yes and no?  Hmmm im mot sure. I do notice that these prophets AS had father's or mother's that were either prophets themselves or had direct /indirect communication with Allah swt with angel or something, where as the the prophet Muhammad SAW's father and father's before then we're not immediate prophets for at least a large chunk of time.

Many of what you referenced conveyed the prophethood to someone important before or during that particular prophets childhood.

Now we do have  narrations of Bahira/Sergius predicting prophet hood of our prophet Muhammad saws , though not he was not an angel or Allah swt directly comminicating this.... when he was a child.

I can't say for sure I know the intention or tradition of Allah swt based on your response alone bro. Technically  our prophet is descended from these prophets and/or related. In that sense I can kinda see that connection you refer to.  

 

The common theme is that these prophets were up right guys who didn't sin and did good, but still in need of guidance and had their frustrations when guiding the people, Musa AS in particular and Aaron AS.  I see that maybe these prophets pbut needed to posses a preliminary flawless character before recieving revelation /divine knowledge.  As a screening.

[ShiaMan14]

Salaam brother,

I was going to write a long piece on this but brother @S.M.H.A. did a fantastic job in showing how other Prophets were prophets at birth.

The one thing I would add is about:

17 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

10:15

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it." Say, [O Muhammad], "It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."

The Prophet was not a robot where he simply relayed everything Allah instructed him too. It was a conscious choice to relay Allah's message to us. The Prophet is telling us that he chooses to obey Allah as a choice and free will.

The greatness of the Masoomeen is not that they could not sin but that they did not sin out of choice. An example would be Imam Ali's letter/sermon (I forget which it is) about Muawiya's cunningness. Imam Ali recognizes the evil plans of Muawiya and admits to not doing the same as a choice.

Hope this helps.

[wmehar2]

50 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Salaam brother,

I was going to write a long piece on this but brother @S.M.H.A. did a fantastic job in showing how other Prophets were prophets at birth.

The one thing I would add is about:

The Prophet was not a robot where he simply relayed everything Allah instructed him too. It was a conscious choice to relay Allah's message to us. The Prophet is telling us that he chooses to obey Allah as a choice and free will.

The greatness of the Masoomeen is not that they could not sin but that they did not sin out of choice. An example would be Imam Ali's letter/sermon (I forget which it is) about Muawiya's cunningness. Imam Ali recognizes the evil plans of Muawiya and admits to not doing the same as a choice.

Hope this helps.

Walaikumassalam,

Thanks for your response.  I actually responded with some questions/reflection on @S.M.H.A's post, but it Seems it hasn't been approved yet.  That response conveys that I'm not entirely sure I can say confidently  that our prophet saw was a prophet from birth when juxtaposing his life/birth with the aforementioned prophets. 

In addition to the hadith of Bahira foretelling the prophethood of Muhammad SAW,  the hadith says that he WILL become a prophet, not that he IS. 

But I'm skeptical of the Hadith being Authentic because I wonder why Abu Talib did not convert to Islam upon hearing this prophecy ...since he was present during this Hadith's occurrence. 

It makes sense the Prophet pbuh would consciously not sin in that regard, I see.

 

Though I'm not speaking from the standpoint to say the prophet saw sinned or not,  or even made mistakes.  

I'm speaking more specifically in regards to the Prophet saw living his life in the way of revelation before it was revealed.  One small example is where His adopted son, Zaid ibn Muhammad was renamed after revelation to Zaid ibn Harith., etc.

Edited August 26, 2016 by wmehar2

[ShiaMan14]

59 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

But I'm skeptical of the Hadith being Authentic because I wonder why Abu Talib did not convert to Islam upon hearing this prophecy ...since he was present during this Hadith's occurrence. 

Brother,

Let's leave Hz Abu Talib's faith discussion for a different thread. All shias believe 100% that he was a follower of the deen-e-Ibrahimi (Believing in 1 God) before the Muhammad and became a Muslim after the announcement. Now why he did not openly declare his faith? Politics - he could protect the Prophet better without declaring his faith than by declaring it so he chose to do what was right for Islam and the Prophet. It is a great shame that his service to Islam and the Prophet has been completely neglected by the Muslims and he is made out to be a kaffir. If he was the father of any other caliph or sahaba, Abu Talib would have been the most revered figure in Islam after the Prophet. But I digress...

1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

In addition to the hadith of Bahira foretelling the prophethood of Muhammad SAW,  the hadith says that he WILL become a prophet, not that he IS. 

But I'm skeptical of the Hadith being Authentic because I wonder why Abu Talib did not convert to Islam upon hearing this prophecy ...since he was present during this Hadith's occurrence. 

It makes sense the Prophet pbuh would consciously not sin in that regard, I see.

Without getting into the authenticity of the hadith of Bahira, Muslims even today are not sure whether the Prophet was a Prophet from birth or at the age of 40 so let's not worry about the 'tense' used by a Christian Monk 1,400+ years ago.

1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

I'm speaking more specifically in regards to the Prophet saw living his life in the way of revelation before it was revealed.  One small example is where His adopted son, Zaid ibn Muhammad was renamed after revelation to Zaid ibn Harith., etc.

The cultural rule at that time was to give the adopted son your name so the Prophet followed the rule until he had established sharia and then changed the name.

[wmehar2]

The same case for Musa AS,  where our holy book mentions that he WILL be made a prophet , and not IS one.  The below has a fundamental distinction.  Some were prophets from birth, some not based off initial observation. 

28:7

....We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers.

 

[S.M.H.A.]

الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الْأُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِنْدَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنْجِيلِ يَأْمُرُهُمْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَائِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالْأَغْلَالَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُوا النُّورَ الَّذِي أُنْزِلَ مَعَهُ ۙ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ {157}

[Pickthal 7:157] Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.

[wmehar2]

11 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Brother,

Let's leave Hz Abu Talib's faith discussion for a different thread. All shias believe 100% that he was a follower of the deen-e-Ibrahimi (Believing in 1 God) before the Muhammad and became a Muslim after the announcement. Now why he did not openly declare his faith? Politics - he could protect the Prophet better without declaring his faith than by declaring it so he chose to do what was right for Islam and the Prophet. It is a great shame that his service to Islam and the Prophet has been completely neglected by the Muslims and he is made out to be a kaffir. If he was the father of any other caliph or sahaba, Abu Talib would have been the most revered figure in Islam after the Prophet. But I digress...

Without getting into the authenticity of the hadith of Bahira, Muslims even today are not sure whether the Prophet was a Prophet from birth or at the age of 40 so let's not worry about the 'tense' used by a Christian Monk 1,400+ years ago.

The cultural rule at that time was to give the adopted son your name so the Prophet followed the rule until he had established sharia and then changed the name.

I suppose that's another conversation regarding Abu Talib,   I personally didn't know that there are differences of opinion regarding the faith of Abu Talib.

I don't know what was in his heart, surely only Allah swt knows.  Forgive my assumption as I've only based it on the lack of reporting of his taking of the Shahadah.  It may very well he  had faith in his nephews prophecy and believed, silently to protect him, though many could also argue his conversion may have helped smooth transition of the Meccans to accept God's message.  Only Allah swt knows.

 I've not come across any hadith in regards to when Abu Talib took the Shahadah even upon his death bed, but perhaps the narrations I've read were lacking ?  As I said, before I'm dubious of many hadith, I'm open to reading other sources.

I don't know if you all know about the prophet's SAW grandfather Abdul Mutallib having draw lots to not sacrifice the prophets father , but you may not believe the historical resources /hadith concerning this history.  It would seem you would not given your stance on Abu Talib's faith. 

 

But the prophet's father  was to be sacrificed after Abdul Mutallib vowed upon digging /protecting the well of zam zam,  where he wanted 10 sons and to sacrifice the 10th depending on divination arrows, which was a highly common pagan practice in Jahillyia Arabia, he then consulted a sorceress to cast lots with camels (another pagan practice)  and keeping adding 10 camels everytime Abdullah ibn Abdul Mutallib  was chosen.    Until 100 camels were reached, they were chosen to he sacrificed instead, the test was also repeated 3 times.

I take it the shia take this story to he rubbish? (I'm not arguing if it is authentic just want to know what the shia make of it so I can understand )

If this is the case then I can understand and why you would believe Abu Talib was a muslim indeed.  

Otherwise it would seem Abu Talib would have been a pagan by default considering his father's influence and deeds.  But I wouldn't be hasty to make this conclusion as I'm skeptical of many hadiths.  I don't personally have a position on this issue.

 

I just want to see the shia perspective and their rationales so I can understand.

My personal position is ones ability to be muslim or not is solely between Allah swt and them, and my capacity to be a muslim shouldn't be impacted by that.

[wmehar2]

36 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الْأُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِنْدَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنْجِيلِ يَأْمُرُهُمْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَائِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالْأَغْلَالَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُوا النُّورَ الَّذِي أُنْزِلَ مَعَهُ ۙ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ {157}

[Pickthal 7:157] Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.

Ah yes I've actually came across the passages in the Torah  regarding the man who cannot read or write.   

 

But forgive me I'm slow to connect dots :/  what's the significance in referencing this pertaining to the discussion?

Edited August 26, 2016 by wmehar2

[S.M.H.A.]

43 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Ah yes I've actually came across the passages in the Torah  regarding the man who cannot read or write.   

 

But forgive me I'm slow to connect dots :/  what's the significance in referencing this pertaining to the discussion?

Here is some info on the sub topic that came out.

Regarding Qur'an 7:157 the relevant part is " whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them."

As per my first post, it seems that your/(people you said you interact with). Is of the opinion, that god assigned the post and informed all the Prophets of the "Seal of the Prophets"( Their Leader) and went looking to fill it with a qualified person in Arabia? 

[wmehar2]

29 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Here is some info on the sub topic that came out.

Regarding Qur'an 7:157 the relevant part is " whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them."

As per my first post, it seems that your/(people you said you interact with). Is of the opinion, that god assigned the post and informed all the Prophets of the "Seal of the Prophets"( Their Leader) and went looking to fill it with a qualified person in Arabia? 

Well this is my big question and struggle is brother.  I don't know what they (my people , much less who they are)  think I only know how I interpret what's in front of me.  My opinions are easily swayed given the right logic and evidence presented not absent a sincere effort to strive to truth.

My question here challenges that the prophet married in "haram ".  Because a non muslim did their nikah, potentially.  I don't know for sure but why would the shia have a problem with the prophet saw being married by a non muslim ?

 

The shia muslims have argued with me from many examples in the Quran when Musa  AS and Suleman AS and etc made mistakes and sins but we're only being tested and therefore did not really commit sin or were put in a situation where they would be blameless and therefore without sin?  So extend that logic to when the prophet saw and lady Khadijah RA were married by Abu Talib, was it really in Haram? If Abu Talib was or wasn't muslim mattered ?

If one is to  assume  the prophet saw didn't live the quran before revelation, then many shii' arguments fail from the thread you've posted to me. 

We can't argue using tautgologies without proving the basal logic first.

I'm not going to use Sunni hadiths or shia hadiths but the closest, most rationable historic accounts I come across or presented to me to reconcile my opinion.  Which may  or may not include hadiths, then juxtapose it with the quran.

I'm not hardened or fixated on Abu Talib being muslim or not muslim, I'm fixated on the core issue of the prophet saw exemplifying revelation before the revelation came.

 

I hope you're  not all going to tell me that I need to have a stance on the issue concerning Abu Talib faith, because "I don't know,  I wasn't there and an not God and God doesn't need my stance on this issue to fulfill my duties as a muslim " feels like a sufficient response to what I think of Abu Talib.

I don't see a verse in the Quran explicitly naming Abu Talib a kafir, so that's the end of the discussion in that regard for me.

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by wmehar2

[S.M.H.A.]

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
[Yusufali 3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

or 

Tafsir Al-Mizan BY ALLAMAH MUHAMMAD HUSSEIN TABATABAI

http://www.almizan.org/

*****

وَالنَّجْمِ إِذَا هَوَىٰ {1}

[Pickthal 53:1] By the Star when it setteth,

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَىٰ {2}

[Pickthal 53:2] Your comrade erreth not, nor is deceived;

وَمَا يَنْطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ {3}

[Pickthal 53:3] Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire.

إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَىٰ {4}

[Pickthal 53:4] It is naught save an inspiration that is inspired,

عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيدُ الْقُوَىٰ {5}

[Pickthal 53:5] Which one of mighty powers hath taught him,

*****

 

يس {1}

[Pickthal 36:1] Ya Sin.

وَالْقُرْآنِ الْحَكِيمِ {2}

[Pickthal 36:2] By the wise Qur'an,

إِنَّكَ لَمِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ {3}

[Pickthal 36:3] Lo! thou art of those sent

عَلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ {4}

[Pickthal 36:4] On a straight path,

تَنْزِيلَ الْعَزِيزِ الرَّحِيمِ {5

*****

Do you think the verses quoted above are the Decisive/ Mother Verses and others that you quoted needs to be looked at, with the Mother Verses in mind? 

Imagine that the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad(peace be upon him and his progeny) just recited the Direct Revelation to the Muslims , Surah #1 Al-Faathia, students/Muslims ask questions regarding the meaning of what was just delivered to them? who are they going to reach out to for the True understanding of the Divine message? If the one delivering the message is just a "deliver man" and that's all. ?

[wmehar2]

I'm not of the mind that he's was a simple delivery man. Im of the mind he was an intelligent human being that engaged his intellect and figured it out for us.  His pure heart and intellect were both necessary to fulfill the role given to him in my point of view.

 

I don't think he was born with the knowledge. 

To demonstrate what we need to have to reach God's happiness and peace.    But this is my personal opinion absent upbringing I've had.

To show God didn't create man incomplete and unequipped to reach him, for God makes no mistakes in his creation.  we all have the capacity, and need guidance but whether we need continous guidance is another debate.

Edited August 26, 2016 by wmehar2

[S.M.H.A.]

[Pickthal 19:12] (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And we gave him wisdom when a child,

[Pickthal 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

[Pickthal 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

[wmehar2]

21 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

[Pickthal 19:12] (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And we gave him wisdom when a child,

[Pickthal 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

[Pickthal 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

I understand, but having wisdom doesn't mean you have knowledge  and know and all rules.  Having wisdom means having the capacity to learn and obtain knowledge,  at least in my view. These are  directly applicable to us modern and ancient humans.

Hard work, heart,  intellect /wisdom are necessary peices human being can emulate .  And are emphasized in the Quran.

We don't have knowledge of the unseen and I don't believe the Prophet SAW did either Unless it was something specific Allah swt showed him, which im sure wasn't everything in revelation when he was younger. 

We humans make mistakes , we need a perfect human man who makes mistakes and learn how he overcomes them.  And follow that example after.  We can't learn from a man who makes no mistakes because he would not be human.

Assume wisdom does mean knowledge,

Just because the passages implicate Isa AS as a wisdom bearing child, doesn't mean our prophet saw also spoke from the cradle a with unseen knowledge .  

You say the prophet saw did have the capacity to sin , but chose not to to distinctly identify his humanity.

 

Why should his intellect and knowledge be any different?  Why can't he be posed with a problem then we learn and observe how he approaches and solve it? Why do we focus on the problems and solutions themselves and   not on the methodology and sincerity with intellect  used to address those problems /solutions ?

 

Saying he was born with all the knowledge and wisdom makes him less human , and less obtainable to strive to be.   We can't follow that example. Makes him less human in my perspective which are born to have these traits.

But... these are my personal views

Edited August 26, 2016 by wmehar2

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I suppose that's another conversation regarding Abu Talib,   I personally didn't know that there are differences of opinion regarding the faith of Abu Talib.

I don't know what was in his heart, surely only Allah swt knows.  Forgive my assumption as I've only based it on the lack of reporting of his taking of the Shahadah.  It may very well he  had faith in his nephews prophecy and believed, silently to protect him, though many could also argue his conversion may have helped smooth transition of the Meccans to accept God's message.  Only Allah swt knows.

 I've not come across any hadith in regards to when Abu Talib took the Shahadah even upon his death bed, but perhaps the narrations I've read were lacking ?  As I said, before I'm dubious of many hadith, I'm open to reading other sources.

I don't know if you all know about the prophet's SAW grandfather Abdul Mutallib having draw lots to not sacrifice the prophets father , but you may not believe the historical resources /hadith concerning this history.  It would seem you would not given your stance on Abu Talib's faith. 

 

But the prophet's father  was to be sacrificed after Abdul Mutallib vowed upon digging /protecting the well of zam zam,  where he wanted 10 sons and to sacrifice the 10th depending on divination arrows, which was a highly common pagan practice in Jahillyia Arabia, he then consulted a sorceress to cast lots with camels (another pagan practice)  and keeping adding 10 camels everytime Abdullah ibn Abdul Mutallib  was chosen.    Until 100 camels were reached, they were chosen to he sacrificed instead, the test was also repeated 3 times.

I take it the shia take this story to he rubbish? (I'm not arguing if it is authentic just want to know what the shia make of it so I can understand )

If this is the case then I can understand and why you would believe Abu Talib was a muslim indeed.  

Otherwise it would seem Abu Talib would have been a pagan by default considering his father's influence and deeds.  But I wouldn't be hasty to make this conclusion as I'm skeptical of many hadiths.  I don't personally have a position on this issue.

 

I just want to see the shia perspective and their rationales so I can understand.

My personal position is ones ability to be muslim or not is solely between Allah swt and them, and my capacity to be a muslim shouldn't be impacted by that.

have we gone from just claiming Hz Abu Talib was not a Muslim to labeling the Prophet's entire ancestry to be Kafirs???

you do know the family of the Prophet was on the deen-e-ibrahimi?

[S.M.H.A.]

[Pickthal 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

[Pickthal 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

*****

Reason for 40.(Announcement)

قال الله سبحانه: (قُلْ كَفَى بِاللّهِ شَهِيداً بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ) صدق الله العلي العظيم.

Allah said: “Say: Allah is a sufficient witness between me and you and whoever has the knowledge of the Book.” (13:43)

 

It was the tradition of Allah to send with his prophets somebody who would attest in his favor and support him. It is upon this very tradition that the Lord sent with the Prophet (s.a.w.a) of Islam somebody who attested to his prophethood, and bore witness to the faith which he preached. As long as this witness and attester was not born and as long as such a person who would bear testimony to the truth according to the understanding and intellect of the lay people was not available, Allah did not order His Beloved Prophet to proclaim his prophethood.

http://www.alnajafi.org/messages/164-imamaliwiladat2012.html

*****

Important to understand. 

Quote:

“ 8. The Qur’an claims several stages of its existence

(1) A pre-revealed existence with God in the Lawhe Mahfuz (Ch. LXXXV: v 22) (protected tablet) and in the Kitab-e-Maknun Ch. LVI: vs 77-79) (hidden book).

“Verily it is an honoured Qur’an, In a Book hidden, Toucheth it not save the purified ones.”

(Ch. LVI: vs 77-79)

(2) A revealed form taught to the Holy Prophet when he was created and given the power of expression.

“(God), the Beneficent, Taught He the Qur’an. He created man, He taught him Expression.”

(Ch: LV: vs 1-3).

And

(3) an arranged form revealed to the heart of the Holy Prophet in its totality on the esteemed night in the month of Ramadhan. (Ch. XLIV: vs 1-6 and Ch. XCVII: Al-Qadr).

These three stages refer to God’s teaching the Holy Prophet and acquainting him with the Qur’an.

(4) Fourth is the stage of the gradual revelation of the Qur’an; in this stage the revelation of the Qur’an part by part was meant for recitation to the people (Ch. XVII: v 106):

“And it is the Qur’an which We have apportioned it so that thou mayest recite it unto the people with deliberation (by degrees), and We have sent it down, gradually in portions.”

(Ch: XVII: v 106)

It was in this stage of recitation that the first five verses of Ch. XLVI (‘Alaq or Iqra) were revealed. The first chapter of the Qur’an named al- Fatihatul-Kitab (the Opening Chapter of the Holy Book, the Qur’an) was revealed for the recitation later. In this stage of revelation the circumstances would require quotation and recitation of some chapters or verses (from chapters) not in accordance with the order of the previous arrangement. A portion of one chapter would be recited earlier and the other portion would remain to be recited later on. In this interval few other chapters were revealed for recitation.

(5) Fifth is the stage of post-gradual revelation wherein the Qur’an was taught to be placed within the reach of Jinns and Ins (Jinns and human beings) as an everlasting guidance and challenging miracle. Post-gradual revelation begins in the last year of the Holy Prophet’s ministry. The Holy Prophet said that Gabriel used to place the Qur’an before him every year but this year he placed it twice before him as it was the Holy Prophet’s last year in this material world. It was approximately three months before the Holy Prophet’s repeated declaration:

“ I am leaving among you two precious things, the Book of God and my Ahl al-Bayt.”

It is obvious, then, that the arrangement of the post-gradual revelation should be in accordance with the order of the Qur’an or pre-gradual revelation because circumstances may require an earlier recitation of a portion which might be next in the order of the pre-revealed arrangement.

This fact is supported by the Qur’an

“Verily, on Us is the collection of it and the recital of it! (Ch. LXXV:v 17)

Also there are the traditions indicating that the Holy Prophet used to order the scribes to place the revealed verses of different rhythmical pitch in the relevant chapters; and the Qur’an was revised by Gabriel twice in the last year of the Prophet’s ministry. Therefore, the place and the date of revelation have no bearing on the order of arrangement of the Qur’an in post-gradual revelation. What we find written in the beginning of every chapter about the date and place of revelation ( whether revealed in Mecca or Medina) are not part of the Qur’an. People had marked these out for their reference. Thus, it is not correct to consider the present placing of the Madani Chapters before Makki and vice versa as a sign of disorder and lack of proper arrangement.”

 

Page #’s: 30-32

Book: Essence of The Holy Qur’an (The Eternal Light)

By: Ayatullah Agha Haji Mirza Mahdi Pooya

Edited August 26, 2016 by S.M.H.A.

[wmehar2]

41 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

have we gone from just claiming Hz Abu Talib was not a Muslim to labeling the Prophet's entire ancestry to be Kafirs???

you do know the family of the Prophet was on the deen-e-ibrahimi?

Well, your response indicates to me that you doubt the historicity of the claims of what I said.  Though I never indicated to you whether if I believe them or not and nor do I assert them as the truth because I don't know, and I will not assume.

Like I told you I'm no claiming whether if Abu Talib is or isn't muslim because I've explicitly stated that I don't know and it's not something I need to know,  because I have no way to know for certain.

I can't accept  assumptions.  But you do realize that every pagan and kafir of Mecca shared the same ancestors as the prophet SAW?   If the vast majority ended up being kaffirs, why don't you think the prophets SAW ancestors were not ?

 

Do you know much of the history of the Quraysh and the tribes of Qedar?  You do know then even in the time of Adnan and after, they were a great majority of idol worshippers among them?  The tribe of Quraysh, of Adnan, lost their faith a long time ago.  Yes maybe some  retained the faith of Ibrahim, but thinking rationally and accounting for polulation growth and facts we can paint a good picture and confidently say the ancestors of the prophet saw most likely contained many kuffirs, when you look at the tribe of Quraysh.   Abu Bakr, Omar, are all 8th and 7th and etc Generational cousins of the prophet saw, paternally and  maternally.  In fact they are all family and blood related thus are also direct descendants of the Prophets of before .

If the ancestors of the prophet saw were all non kuffirs,  then how did the vast majority of them wind up as kuffirs?  How well do you know the lineages and family tree chains ? I've looked at them and studied them very well,  look up who the great enemies from Mecca descended from, and it all points back to the same line.

 

Truth of the matter is,  the heads of the Quraysh and the prophets direct ancestors , custodians of the Kaaba housing idols were pagans, indisputably.

And there's nothing in our religion in both shia and other sects of islam having a problem regarding this.  This doesnt invalidate the   Prophets messages, they  preached to their kuffir families all the same,  we all come from Adam AS, and from his lineage bore non kuffirs, mumineen, prophets and the rest of us. It shouldn't come as a surprise.

Edited August 26, 2016 by wmehar2

[S.M.H.A.]

4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

 

In addition to the hadith of Bahira foretelling the prophethood of Muhammad SAW,  the hadith says that he WILL become a prophet, not that he IS. 

 

قُلْ إِنِّي أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أَعْبُدَ اللَّهَ مُخْلِصًا لَهُ الدِّينَ {11}

[Shakir 39:11] Say: I am commanded that I should serve Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience.
[Pickthal 39:11] Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only).
[Yusufali 39:11] Say: "Verily, I am commanded to serve Allah with sincere devotion;
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 39:11]

Refer to the commentary of An-am: 14.

This verse was revealed when the pagans of Makka asked the Holy Prophet as to why he was preaching a new religion opposed to idolatry and making his followers suffer persecution and miseries.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Not in the order of conversion of the Makkans, but the Holy Prophet was the first Muslim in the order of whole creation, mentioned in Ali Imran: 184.

 

وَأُمِرْتُ لِأَنْ أَكُونَ أَوَّلَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ {12}

[Shakir 39:12] And I am commanded that I shall be the first of those who submit.
[Pickthal 39:12] And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).
[Yusufali 39:12] "And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam."

http://quran.al-islam.org/

[wmehar2]

9 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

قُلْ إِنِّي أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أَعْبُدَ اللَّهَ مُخْلِصًا لَهُ الدِّينَ {11}

[Shakir 39:11] Say: I am commanded that I should serve Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience.
[Pickthal 39:11] Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only).
[Yusufali 39:11] Say: "Verily, I am commanded to serve Allah with sincere devotion;
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 39:11]

Refer to the commentary of An-am: 14.

This verse was revealed when the pagans of Makka asked the Holy Prophet as to why he was preaching a new religion opposed to idolatry and making his followers suffer persecution and miseries.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Not in the order of conversion of the Makkans, but the Holy Prophet was the first Muslim in the order of whole creation, mentioned in Ali Imran: 184.

 

وَأُمِرْتُ لِأَنْ أَكُونَ أَوَّلَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ {12}

[Shakir 39:12] And I am commanded that I shall be the first of those who submit.
[Pickthal 39:12] And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).
[Yusufali 39:12] "And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam."

http://quran.al-islam.org/

Was Adam AS not the first muslim ?  Not the first to submit ?

I think these verses are being taking out of context if you're saying our prophet saw was determined and created before all man to be the first muslim... so I must be misunderstanding you.

Our prophet cannot contradict our scripture and pre exist before Adam AS

Edited August 26, 2016 by wmehar2

[S.M.H.A.]

7 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Was Adam AS not the first muslim ?  Not the first to submit ?

[Pickthal 2:30] And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.
[Pickthal 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.
[Pickthal 2:32] They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.
[Pickthal 2:33] He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.
[Pickthal 2:34] And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

http://www.almizan.org/

The Holy Prophet said:

"I was a prophet of Allah when Adam was yet in the making."

[wmehar2]

9 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

[Pickthal 2:30] And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.
[Pickthal 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.
[Pickthal 2:32] They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.
[Pickthal 2:33] He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.
[Pickthal 2:34] And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

http://www.almizan.org/

The Holy Prophet said:

"I was a prophet of Allah when Adam was yet in the making."

You can't drop that line and expect me to belive he said that without a hadith reference, chain etc.  I don't do assumptions,  yoI've been kind enough to provide references for everything but that one line...

That hadith contradicts the quran, in many senses, so I don't think that hadith should he taken to be fact. Adam is indisputably the first human being created.

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.  So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.” (Quran 38:71-72)

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by wmehar2

[S.M.H.A.]

Time to Reflect.( Continue later )

Read the Verses 2:30-34. What did the angels said, what was Adam taught? Commentary at al-islam and al-mizan.(provided above)

*****

Why the Almighty Allah ordered angels to prostrate before Adam (a.s.)?

"The Almighty Allah ordered His angels to prostrate to Adam as a mark of his respect while the latter was not visible to them. He ordered the angles to prostrate to Adam when he had made the souls of his proofs enter his loins. .."

Kamaaluddin wa Tamaamun Ni’ma Vol. 1

Perfection of Faith and Completion of Divine Favor

Shaykh as-Saduq

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#why-almighty-Allah-ordered-angels-prostrate-adam

*****

“'Abdu 's-Salam al-Harawi said:

"I said to ar-Rida (a.s.): 'O son of the Messenger of Allah! tell me about the tree from which Adam and Hawwa' ate, what was it? Because people do have different views about it; some have narrated that it was a wheat-plant, and others have reported that it was the tree of envy.'

He said: 'All this is true.' I said: 'Then what do these explanations, with their differences, mean?'

He said: 'O son of as-Salt! verily the tree of the Garden bears (fruits of) many kinds; and it was a wheat-plant and (yet) it bore grapes; and it was not like a tree of this world. And when Allah raised the status of Adam by making the angels prostrate before him and by placing him in the Garden, he said: "Has Allah created any man superior than me?" And Allah knew what had came into his mind; so He called out to him: "Raise your head, O Adam! and look at the pillar of the Throne."

So, he looked at the pillar of the Throne and found written on it: "There is no god except Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; 'Ali ibn Abl TaIib is the Leader of the faithful, and his wife, Fatimah is the Chief of the women of the worlds, and al-Hasan and al-Husayn are the Chiefs of the youths of the people of the Garden." Adam said: "O my Lord! who are they?" He, Mighty and Great is He said: "O Adam! they are (from) your off-springs; and they are better than you and all My creation; and if it were not (for) them, I would have not created you, nor the Garden, nor the fire, nor the heaven, nor the earth. So be careful not to look at them with envious eyes; otherwise, I will turn you out of My nearness."

But he looked at them with envious eyes and entertained the hope of (attaining to) their rank. So, the Satan got the better of him, until he ate from the forbidden tree; and got the better of Hawwa', and she looked at Fatimah with envious eyes until she too, like Adam, ate from the tree. Thereupon, Allah turned them out of His Garden, and got them down from His nearness to the earth.'" ('Uyunu'l-akhbar)

The author says: This matter has been described in many traditions, some more detailed than this; others, more concise. In this tradition, the lmam has confirmed that the tree was the wheat-plant, and also that it was the tree of envy. The former implies that the tree was not worthy of attention of the people of the Garden; the later indicates that it was too lofty to come within the grasp of Adam and his wife (as a tradition says that it was the tree of the knowledge of Muhammad and his progeny).....”

"But he looked at them with envious eyes and entertained the hope of (attaining to) their rank": The second clause explains the first; Adam wanted that he too should attain to that status; it was not that he was envious (i.e., had any ill will) against them. Envy is a vice, while aspiring to raise one's status is not.”

 

Commentary Surah 2: Verse 35

Tafsir Al-Mizan BY ALLAMAH MUHAMMAD HUSSEIN TABATABAI

www.almizan.org

[wmehar2]

8 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Time to Reflect.( Continue later )

Read the Verses 2:30-34. What did the angels said, what was Adam taught? Commentary at al-islam and al-mizan.(provided above)

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Why the Almighty Allah ordered angels to prostrate before Adam (a.s.)?

"The Almighty Allah ordered His angels to prostrate to Adam as a mark of his respect while the latter was not visible to them. He ordered the angles to prostrate to Adam when he had made the souls of his proofs enter his loins. .."

Kamaaluddin wa Tamaamun Ni’ma Vol. 1

Perfection of Faith and Completion of Divine Favor

Shaykh as-Saduq

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#why-almighty-Allah-ordered-angels-prostrate-adam

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“'Abdu 's-Salam al-Harawi said:

"I said to ar-Rida (a.s.): 'O son of the Messenger of Allah! tell me about the tree from which Adam and Hawwa' ate, what was it? Because people do have different views about it; some have narrated that it was a wheat-plant, and others have reported that it was the tree of envy.'

He said: 'All this is true.' I said: 'Then what do these explanations, with their differences, mean?'

He said: 'O son of as-Salt! verily the tree of the Garden bears (fruits of) many kinds; and it was a wheat-plant and (yet) it bore grapes; and it was not like a tree of this world. And when Allah raised the status of Adam by making the angels prostrate before him and by placing him in the Garden, he said: "Has Allah created any man superior than me?" And Allah knew what had came into his mind; so He called out to him: "Raise your head, O Adam! and look at the pillar of the Throne."

So, he looked at the pillar of the Throne and found written on it: "There is no god except Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; 'Ali ibn Abl TaIib is the Leader of the faithful, and his wife, Fatimah is the Chief of the women of the worlds, and al-Hasan and al-Husayn are the Chiefs of the youths of the people of the Garden." Adam said: "O my Lord! who are they?" He, Mighty and Great is He said: "O Adam! they are (from) your off-springs; and they are better than you and all My creation; and if it were not (for) them, I would have not created you, nor the Garden, nor the fire, nor the heaven, nor the earth. So be careful not to look at them with envious eyes; otherwise, I will turn you out of My nearness."

But he looked at them with envious eyes and entertained the hope of (attaining to) their rank. So, the Satan got the better of him, until he ate from the forbidden tree; and got the better of Hawwa', and she looked at Fatimah with envious eyes until she too, like Adam, ate from the tree. Thereupon, Allah turned them out of His Garden, and got them down from His nearness to the earth.'" ('Uyunu'l-akhbar)

The author says: This matter has been described in many traditions, some more detailed than this; others, more concise. In this tradition, the lmam has confirmed that the tree was the wheat-plant, and also that it was the tree of envy. The former implies that the tree was not worthy of attention of the people of the Garden; the later indicates that it was too lofty to come within the grasp of Adam and his wife (as a tradition says that it was the tree of the knowledge of Muhammad and his progeny).....”

"But he looked at them with envious eyes and entertained the hope of (attaining to) their rank": The second clause explains the first; Adam wanted that he too should attain to that status; it was not that he was envious (i.e., had any ill will) against them. Envy is a vice, while aspiring to raise one's status is not.”

 

Commentary Surah 2: Verse 35

Tafsir Al-Mizan BY ALLAMAH MUHAMMAD HUSSEIN TABATABAI

www.almizan.org

If what you say is true, and God thrusted into Adams AS loins,  this still means the prophet Muhammad SAW was not a prophet while Adam AS was being created?

There's also predestination implications and potential violations here. This means every human up unto the last prophet was preconceived and existed , because the people surrounding the prophets greatly influenced their actions,  and events to transpire.  

This business of what was written on the tree, this is stuff I've never heard of or seen, it's very shocking and  difficult to absorb , but I'm going to ponder on this.  I deeply appreciate the level of seriousness and effort you're putting in your responses. 

Edited August 26, 2016 by wmehar2

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

Well, your response indicates to me that you doubt the historicity of the claims of what I said.  Though I never indicated to you whether if I believe them or not and nor do I assert them as the truth because I don't know, and I will not assume.

Like I told you I'm no claiming whether if Abu Talib is or isn't muslim because I've explicitly stated that I don't know and it's not something I need to know,  because I have no way to know for certain.

I can't accept  assumptions.  But you do realize that every pagan and kafir of Mecca shared the same ancestors as the prophet SAW?   If the vast majority ended up being kaffirs, why don't you think the prophets SAW ancestors were not ?

 

Do you know much of the history of the Quraysh and the tribes of Qedar?  You do know then even in the time of Adnan and after, they were a great majority of idol worshippers among them?  The tribe of Quraysh, of Adnan, lost their faith a long time ago.  Yes maybe some  retained the faith of Ibrahim, but thinking rationally and accounting for polulation growth and facts we can paint a good picture and confidently say the ancestors of the prophet saw most likely contained many kuffirs, when you look at the tribe of Quraysh.   Abu Bakr, Omar, are all 8th and 7th and etc Generational cousins of the prophet saw, paternally and  maternally.  In fact they are all family and blood related thus are also direct descendants of the Prophets of before .

If the ancestors of the prophet saw were all non kuffirs,  then how did the vast majority of them wind up as kuffirs?  How well do you know the lineages and family tree chains ? I've looked at them and studied them very well,  look up who the great enemies from Mecca descended from, and it all points back to the same line.

 

Truth of the matter is,  the heads of the Quraysh and the prophets direct ancestors , custodians of the Kaaba housing idols were pagans, indisputably.

And there's nothing in our religion in both shia and other sects of islam having a problem regarding this.  This doesnt invalidate the   Prophets messages, they  preached to their kuffir families all the same,  we all come from Adam AS, and from his lineage bore non kuffirs, mumineen, prophets and the rest of us. It shouldn't come as a surprise.

 I have created another thread to discuss this interesting and important issue.

To be honest, my knowledge on this subject is more from oral sources than written ones. But I have heard of Bahira and sacrifice of Abdullah events.

Looking forward to your feedback on that thread.

[S.M.H.A.]

Like I said, take time read the entire link in the last post. Only Literal reading will cause issues.

Here read /reflect the commentary on this verse with the last post..

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنْ بَنِي آدَمَ مِنْ ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَىٰ أَنْفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ ۖ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ ۛ شَهِدْنَا ۛ أَنْ تَقُولُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَٰذَا غَافِلِينَ {172}

[Pickthal 7:172] And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their reins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, (saying): Am I not your Lord? They said: Yea, verily. We testify. (That was) lest ye should say at the Day of Resurrection: Lo! of this we were unaware;

Part 

"

Also refer to the commentary of Ali Imran: 81. Another interpretation of this verse is as under:

Allah, the omnipotent creator, after creating Adam from clay, asked him and every soul to be born in his progeny, who, in the infinite knowledge of the almighty Allah, would come on this earth: "Am I not your Lord?" All of them said: "Yes. We bear witness". It was done so that men may not say that they did not know who their Lord-Creator is. This applies to verse 173 also. The Holy Prophet said that if only men knew when Ali was appointed mawla and amir al muminin, they would not deny his superiority over all other created beings. According to Firdaws al Akhyar by Dayami, chap. 14, p. 274; and Tafsir of al Ayyashi, when the almighty Lord decided to create the universe, He assembled all His creatures together before Himself and asked them: "Who is your Lord?" Thereupon the first to answer was the Holy Prophet, and next was Ali ibna abi Talib, and then all the Imams who were to be his descendants. They all said: "You are our Lord." Then the almighty Lord made them the repositories of divine knowledge and said to the angels: "Behold, these are the repositories of My knowledge and these are the trusted ones from among all My creatures and they shall be the guides of all in everything."

Then the Lord commanded all the descendants of Adam to acknowledge Him as their Lord and to promise obedience to them, and all said: "We promise." The angels also said: "We bear witness".

Read the rest here:

http://quran.al-islam.org/