Imam Ali a.s and Shura (consultation)

[Fahad Sani]

 

What emphasizes the fact that Shura (consultation) was the constitutional system that Imam Amir Muminin Ali bin Abi Talib abided by; and that he had no knowledge of vertical hereditary leadership of the Ahl al-Bayt, is his participation in the Shura process after the death of Caliph Umar bin Khattab, and his arguments before the members of the Shura on his virtues and his role in the service of Islam; so also the fact that he did not point to the issue of the text or his appointment as Khalifah after the Prophet. If the Hadith of Ghadir has any of this import, the Imam would have refered to it, and he would have won the day with what is greater and stronger than mentioning his virtues.

Imam Ali believed in the system of consultation and it’s being first and foremost the right of the Immigrants and the Helpers (Muhajirin and Ansar). Due to this he refused to accede to the call of rebels-after the murder of Caliph Uthman, who invited him to assume power, and he said to them “This is not of your powers, this is for the Muhajirin and Ansar, anyone they chose as a leader will be a leader”.

When the Immigrants and the Helpers came to him and said, “Stretch your hand, we would give you our oath of allegiance”, he withdrew from them. They repeated as the first, and he also withdrew again, and they repeated that for the third time then he said “Leave me and look for another person and know that, if I responded to you, I will do with you what I know…. and if you leave me alone, I am just like one of you, I would be the most obedient and loyal to anyone you choose to conduct your affairs for me to be a vizier is better for you than to be a leader” He walked to Talhah and Zubair and put it across to them and said:” If anyone of you wishes , I will give him my oath of allegiance” They both said “ No … the people accept you more (than any other man). At the end he said to them “If you insist, my oath of allegiance “bayah” must not be secret, and it will not be taken till after the acceptance of the (general) Muslim populace, so I will go out to the Masjid (mosque) anyone who wishes to give his oath of allegiance to me let him do it”.  Tabari, vol. 3 p. 450

Therefore, if the theory of a “text” and appointment is established and well- known to the Muslims, it would not be permissible for Imam (Ali) to reject the revolters, and then wait for the word of the Immigrants and Helpers (Muhajirin & Ansar), as it will also not be permissible for him to say “ to be a vizier is better for you than to be a leader”. It will also not be right for him to put the leadership (Khilafah) before Talhah and Al-Zubair, and he will not need to wait for the oath of allegiance from the general Muslims.

There is another narration from the work of Sulaym bin Qays al-Hilali that discloses the belief of Imam Ali in Shura, and the right of the Ummah to elect its leader. He said in one of his letters, “What is obligatory in the laws of Allah and Islam is that the Muslims, of if their leader dies or is killed, they should not perform any act nor innovate something, nor move in order to do something new, unless they choose for themselves a chaste leader, who is learned, scrupulous, and well-versed in the legal and traditional matters”. Kitab Sulaym bin Qays Al-Hilali, p. 182, Majlisi: Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 8 p. 555

When Talhah and Al-Zubair dissented, he pleaded for his case on the basis of their oath of allegiance to him, saying: “You gave me your oath of allegiance and now you breached it.” He did not point to the issue of a text from the Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him). All that he said to Al-Zubair which made him to desist from fighting him, was his reminding him of the statement of the Prophet (S.A.W) that, “You will fight him, while being a transgressor!”

Imam Ali also said to Mu'awiyah who rebelled against him …My allegiance in Madinah is binding on you in Sham (Syria), because the people who swore their oath of allegiance to me, where the same people who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, so the one present has no other alternative to choose, nor has the absent the right to reject, Definitely Shura is the right of Muhajirin and Ansar, when they agree on a person, and called him the leader (of the Ummah), therein lies the pleasure of Allah..’

So, Shura is the basis of leadership in the right of Imam Ali, and this was in the absence of the theory of (a text and. (divine) appointment or selection), Which was not referred to by the Imam in any instance.

Imam Ali views himself, undoubtedly, as an ordinary person i.e one who is not infallible, and he demanded from the Shiites to other Muslims to view him in that sense. History has preserved for us a wonder of his many wonders which is transmitted by Kulayni in al-Kafi, where he says:

“I am in myself not above mistake, and I am not contented that my actions are free of it, except that Allah suffices me of myself, with what He bestows onto me’. Kulayni: Rawdah al-Kafi, pp. 292-293 Majlisi: Bihar vol. 74. p. 309

The belief of Imam Ali in Shura (Consultation) as a constitution for the Muslims, became very clear in the process of the Caliphate of Imam Hassan when the Muslims came to him after the strike of Abdul Rahman bin Muljan on him, and requested him to appoint his son Hassan after him (as the leader), for he said “No, we did go to the Prophet of Allah and said,” Appoint (for us a leader), and he said” No, I fear that you will be divided on his affairs, as Harun, but if Allah finds any good in your hearts, he will choose for you’ They requested him to point to someone, but he did not . They then said to him,” If we lost you, we will not lose giving our oath of allegiance to Hassan. He said, “I do not command, nor prevent you, you can discern better”. Murtada: Al-Shafi, vol. 3 p. 295, Tathbit Dala'il al-Nubuwwah, vol.1 p. 212

Hafiz Abu Bakr Ibn Abi al-Dunya (208-281AH) has mentioned in the book titled “The Murder of Imam, the Commander of the Faithful, from Abdul Rahman bin Jundub from his father who said “I said “ O! Commander of the faithful, if we lose you (if you die) and we will not lose, we will give our oath of allegiance to Hassan. He said, “I will not command you (to do that) nor prevent you”. I repeated what I said and he replied in the same way. Tathbit Dala'il al-Nubuwwah, p. 43

Sheikh Hassan bin Sulaiman has mentioned in 'Mukhtasar Basair al-Darajat’ from Sulaym bin Qays al- Hilali, who said “I heard Ali saying, while in the company of his two sons and Abdullah bin Ja’far and some of his close associates (supporters) ‘ Leave people with what they have chosen for themselves, and maintain your silence. Majlisi: Bihar Vol. 7 chapter on “Tradition attributed to Sulaym, not available in his book.”

Imam Ali the leader of the faithful has given his will to Imam Hassan and his other children, but he never mention the issue of leadership and the Caliphate, His will was spiritual, ethical and personal, or as, Sheikh Mufid has said in Al-Irshad, the will was for Hassan regarding his family, children and companions, his responsibility and his charity’. Mufid: Al-Irshad, p. 187

 

[Muslim2010]

On 8/23/2016 at 7:27 PM, Fahad Sani said:

What emphasizes the fact that Shura (consultation) was the constitutional system that Imam Amir Muminin Ali bin Abi Talib abided by; and that he had no knowledge of vertical hereditary leadership of the Ahl al-Bayt, is his participation in the Shura process after the death of Caliph Umar bin Khattab, and his arguments before the members of the Shura on his virtues and his role in the service of Islam; so also the fact that he did not point to the issue of the text or his appointment as Khalifah after the Prophet. If the Hadith of Ghadir has any of this import, the Imam would have refered to it, and he would have won the day with what is greater and stronger than mentioning his virtues.

1.  The principle of Appointment of Prophets / Imams/ Leaders / caliphs by Shura does not exist in the Quran

The People cannot choose the Prophet or Caliph or Successor of the prophet with Shura or Consultation, instead of authority / command by Allah.

1- Hz Adam as was chosen by Allah swt as caliph / successor on the earth.  Did Allah swt make any consultation  for his selection ?

2- Allah swt Chosen Ibrahim as as Imam / leader of the people, Did Allah swt consult any prophet or any person for his selection ?

3-  Hz Adam, Nuh,  Ibrahim and the progeny of Imran were chosen above the worlds. Did Allah swt make any consultation with any prophet or person for this selection?

4- The prophet Nuh and Ibrahim were  sent to his nation. Did the people choose them as prophet by Shura or consultation?

5- Allah swt gave the progeny of ibrahim, the book and the wisdom. Did Allah swt make any consultation or Shura with any one for this award to his progeny?

6- Allah swt chosed Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot—each graced over all the nations. Did Allah swt make any consultation for this grace?

7-Allah swt made Isac and yaqub leaders / imams, whom Allah consulted for this selection of leaders / imams?

8- Allah swt made Dawood  a caliph ie his successor as his chosen representative on the earth. Did Allah swt conduct any consultation for this selection?

9- Allah swt made Haroon as and aider and adviser of hz Musa as. Did Allah swt make any consultation with the Children of israel for such selection? Or Musa made any shura for his selection?

10- Musa asked his adviser and aider made by Allah swt ie Harun to take his place as his caliph / successor  in his absence, when he left for Mountain Tur. Did he make any shura for Haroon selection? However the people themselves chose and took a calf in Musa's absence then they were condemned by Allah swt for this worst action.

11- Allah swt made 12 leaders among the children of israel. Did Allah swt make any consultation for the selection of them?

12- Allah swt chosen Talut a leader over the children of Israel because of his knowledge and physical strength. Did Allah swt  make consultation for his selection?

13- Allah swt sent the prophet Muhammad saww as mercy to the mankind. Did he make any consultation for his selection?

14- Allah swt made the prophet Muhammad saww as his messenger and the last of the prophets. Did Allah make any consultation for this selection?

15- And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68.

This verse in the light of above clearly indicates that the selection of representative (prophet / leader / imam/ successor) is the authority of Allah alone. and no one has any right for it. It does not involve any consultation for  their selection.

 16- The way of Allah does  not change:

[This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change. (33:62)

 17- The people do not have any right for selection of prophet or his representative then certainly they cannot choose any one after the prophet as his caliph ./ successor at their own (by any consultation) without permission by Allah.

We read in Surah Baqarah 246 – 247

YUSUF ALI: Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? They said to a prophet (That was) among them: “Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of Allah.” He said: “Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?” They said: “How could we refuse to fight in the cause of Allah, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?” but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But Allah Has full knowledge of those who do wrong.

Their Prophet said to them: “(Allah) hath appointed Talut as king over you.” They said: “How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?” He said: “(Allah) hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things.”

The verses that negate Shura for the selection of Leaders / caliphs are given below:

“God had promised you those of you who believe and do good deeds that He will certainly appoint them Khalifas (thukhalifa) as He appointed successors (thukhalifa) those before him” (Surah Nur 55)

[Shakir 2:30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

“O Dawud verily We have you a khalifa in the earth” (The Qur’an 38:26)

2.  The Prophet did not base the selection of Caliphs / Mawla / Leader by Shura

Muhaddith Shah Waliyullah Dehalvi states in Izalatul Khifa, page 52:

it is in the hands of Allah that whoever He wishes, only he can be the rightful Khalifa”“The way Prophethood is not achieved by a man on endeavoring on his own, similarly the special Khilafat of prophet is also not achieved by someone becoming Khalifa by himself or people appointing him as Khalifa, nor can it take place automatically, rather

History of Tabari Volume 6 page121:

He (The prophet) went to the Banu Amir b. Sa’saa’ah called them to God and offered himself to them. One of them called Bayharah Bin Firas addressed at him, “By God if I could take this young man from Quraysh I could conquer all the Arabs with him”. Then he said, “Do you think that if we follow you and God gives you victory over your opponents we shall have the command after you?”. He replied “Command belongs to God, who places it where He wills”.

Ibn Abbas affirmed that Alllah (swt) had appointed a Leader, but the Quraysh ignored this appointment. Al Tabari the discussion as follows:

“(Umar) said, “Do you know, Ibn Abbas, what kept your people from [being put] over (Quraysh) after Muhammad’s death”. I did not want to answer, so I said, “If I do not know then the Commander of the Faithful will tell me”. Umar said, “They were unwilling for you to combine the Prophethood and the caliphate, lest you magnify yourselves among your own people and be proud. Quraysh made the choice for themselves; they were right and have been granted success”. I said, Commander of the Faithful, if you permit me and not get angry with me, I shall speak”. He allowed me to do so, so I said “As for you saying, Commander of the Faithful, that Quraysh have made their choice for themselves and that they were right and have been granted success, if Quraysh had made the same choice for themselves as God did for them, then right would be theirs, unrejected and unenvied. As for your saying that (Quraysh) were averse to the Prophethood and caliphate being ours, God has described one people as being averse and said, “This is because they were averse to what God revealed, so He made their works fruitless’”. ‘Umar said, “Far from it indeed, Ibn Abbas. I used to hear things about you of which I was reluctant to inquire, lest they bring about your removal from your position with me”. I said, ….

The History of Tabari, Volume 14, English translation, by G. Rex Smith, p137-138

The prophet said: "For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

We read in the book: Kitab Al Sunnah (كتاب السنة), By Ibn Ab'i As'se'm (لابن أبي عاصم), Investigated by the Scholar Al-Albani ( الألباني ), In Volume 2 page, 565, Narration 1188:

"Th'na Muhammad Ibn Almothn'i,Said: Narrated Yahya bn' Ham'aadin: From Ab'i A'awan't: From Yah'ya bn'i S'olaim'in Ab'i Blj'in: From Umr'o bn'i Maymo'on'in: From Ibn'i Abas'in Said: Said The prophet (pbuh) to Ali:

"You are from me, like the status to that of Haroon is to Musa, except  you are not a prophet, It should not be that I leave, Only when you are my Caliph, In every Mo'om'in (Faithful Muslim) After me......"

According to the Investigator Al-Albani: "This Hadith is Hassan, and the Men Are 'Tiqa't (Trusted), The Men of the 'Shaykhain'.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235018171-imam-ali-is-the-caliph-of-every-believer/

Sahih al Muslim, Kitab al Imara Book 020, Number 4518:

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Holy prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Whoso obeys me obeys God, and whoso disobeys me disobeys God. Whoso obeys the commander (appointed by me) obeys me, and whoso disobeys the commander disobeys me. The same tradition transmitted by different persons omits the portion: And whose disobeys the commander disobeys me.

Prophet (s)  said: “Whoever obeys ‘Ali, obeys me, whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, whoever disobeys ‘Ali disobeys me, whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah”

Kanz ul Ummal, Page 614, Hadith numbers 32974 & 32977

Mustadrak al Hakim, Vol. 3, Page 128

Riyadh ul Nadira, Vol. 3, Page 110

“It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have an option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.” [33:36]

3.  Imam Ali mentioned the progeny of the Prophet

SERMON 2, Nehjul balagah

Delivered on return from Siffin

Arabia before proclamation of Prophethood

Part of sermon about the progeny of the Prophet

“None in the Islamic community can be taken at par with the Progeny(3) of the Prophet (Alu Muhammad). One who was under their obligation cannot be matched with them. They are the foundation of religion and pillar of Belief.

The forward runner has to turn back to them while the follower has to overtake them. They ossess the chief characteristics for vicegerency.

In their favour exists the will and succession (of the Prophet). This is the time when right has returned to its owner and diverted to its centre of return.

4.  Imam Ali arguments against the man made Shura and caliphate

SERMON 73, Nehjul balagah

When the Consultative Committee (or Shura) decided to swear allegiance to `Uthman, Amir al-mu'minin said:

You have certainly known that I am the most rightful of all others for the Caliphate. By Allah, so long as the affairs of Muslims remain intact and there is no oppression in it save on myself I shall keep quiet seeking reward for it (from Allah) and keeping aloof from its attractions and allurements for which you aspire.

SERMON 3, Nehjul balagah

Known as the Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah(1)

Beware! By Allah the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)(2) dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death). I found that endurance thereon

was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was [Edited Out]ing in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself.

(Then he quoted al-A`sha's verse).

My days are now passed on the camel's back (in difficulty) while there were days (of ease) when I enjoyed the company of Jabir's brother Hayyan.(3)

It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore.

One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.

Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group(4) and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! what had I to do with this "consultation"? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones?

But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high.

One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship and this thing and that thing, till the third man of these people stood up with heaving breasts between his dung and fodder.

With him his children of his grand-father, (Umayyah) also stood up swallowing up Allah's wealth(5) like a camel devouring the foliage of spring, till his rope broke down, his actions finished him and his gluttony brought him down prostrate.

At that moment, nothing took me by surprise, but the crowd of people rushing to me. It advanced towards me from every side like the mane of the hyena so much so that Hasan and Husayn were getting crushed and both the ends of my shoulder garment were torn. They collected around me like the herd of sheep and goats. When I took up the reins of government one party broke away and another turned disobedient while the rest began acting wrongfully as if they had not heard the word of Allah saying:

That abode in the hereafter, We assign it for those who intend not to exult themselves in the earth, nor (to make) mischief (therein); and the end is (best) for the pious ones. (Qur'an, 28:83) "....

Wasalam

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2016 by skamran110

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Imam Ali a.s always claimed his right of Khilafah until Abu Bakar and Umer died. UMER constituted a Shura for appointment of next caliph. The Shura was so shrewdly made that there was no chance that Imam Ali a.s be chosen as caliph. Abdul Rehman Bin Auf had strong relations with Usman. To further keep Ali a.s away from Khilafah Umer announced that in case of tie, his son Abdullah Bin I met would vote. How it could have been possible that Abdullah Bin Umer who at the time of forth caliphate of Ali a.s refused to do Ali's baiyat would have voted for Ali a.s at the time of selection of third caliph?

Imam Ali a.s did participate in Shura because he did not want that any historian or @Fahad Sani liked say that "Ali a.s knew that he was not fit for caliphate or that Ali a.s did not have right of caliphate therefore he did not participate in Shuts"

However at the end when Ali a.s was asked "Will you follow Quran, Sunnah of Prophet and Sunnah of Shaikhain". Ali a.s refused to follow Sunnah of Shaikhain but Usman agreed therefore Usman was made caliph. This refusal of Ali a.s was  rejection of Khilafah of Shaikhain (Abubakar and Umer) in history.

[S.M.H.A.]

On 8/23/2016 at 10:27 AM, Fahad Sani said:

What emphasizes the fact that Shura (consultation)

Elusive and transient  concept of Shura .

"The Sunni Theory of Government

Those Muslims who claim that they follow the traditions (the statements and practices) of Muhammad Mustafa, the Prophe of Islam, and of his companions, are called Ahl-es-Sunnat wal-Jama'at or Sunni. They also call themselves “orthodox” Muslims, and they make up the overwhelming majority of the Muslims in the world.

The Sunni Muslims believe that the Prophet of Islam did not designate anyone as his successor, and he (probably) assumed that after his death, the Muslims would find a leader for themselves. They further say that the Prophet did not even tell his followers how they ought to select their future leaders or what qualifications those leaders should have.

Thus, lacking both precedent and guidance in the matter of finding their leaders, the companions had no choice but to take recourse to improvisation.

But improvisation is not policy, and inevitably, it turned out to be a rather erratic manner of finding leaders of the Muslim umma (community). In one case the companions found a leader through what was supposed to be an election.

In another case, the first incumbent (who was elected), nominated and appointed his own successor.

In the third instance, the second incumbent (who was nominated), appointed a committee of six men and charged them with the duty of selecting one out of themselves as the future leader of the Muslim community.

The third leader, so selected, was killed in the midst of anarchy and chaos, and the umma was left without a head. The companions then turned to the family of their Prophet, and appealed to one of its members to take charge of the government of the Muslims, and thereby to save it from breakdown and dissolution.

The fourth incumbent was still ruling the Muslims when a new candidate for leadership arose in Syria. He brushed aside the hoax of election, challenged the lawful sovereign of the Muslims by invoking the principle of brute force, and succeeded in capturing the government. His action brought the number of the “principles” for finding leaders of the Muslim umma to four, viz.

1. Election:

Abu Bakr was elected khalifa (successor of the Prophet) by a majority vote in Saqifa.(Ali ibn Abi Talib, the fourth incumbent, was also elected khalifa by a majority of the Muhajireen and Ansar who were present in Medina at the death of the third khalifa).

2. Nomination:

Umar was appointed by Abu Bakr as his successor.

3. Selection by plutocrats:

Uthman was selected khalifa by a committee of six men appointed by Umar.

4. Seizure of the government by naked force:

Muawiya bin Abu Sufyan seized the government of the Muslims by military action.

The Sunni Muslims consider all these four “principles” as lawful and valid. In this manner, four different “constitutional” modes of finding a leader for the Muslim umma came into being.

Here it should be pointed out that though the Sunni Muslims have given to each of these four different modes of finding leaders for the umma, the “status” of a “principle,” none of them was derived from the Book of God (Qur’an) or from the Book of the Prophet (Hadith). All of them were derived from the events which took place after the death of the Prophet of Islam.

In the history of any country, constitution-making is the first step toward nation-building. The constitution is the organic law of the land. It is the basic framework of public authority. It determines and defines the responsibilities, duties and powers of the government.

All major decisions affecting the interests of the nation, are taken in the light of its principles. Whatever is in agreement with it, is held legal and valid; whatever is not, is discarded as unconstitutional........" (1)

 

*****

Nahjul Balagha

"Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)2 dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it......"(2)

"

If I speak out they would call me greedy towards power but if I keep quiet they would say I was afraid of death. It is a pity that after all the ups and downs (I have been through). By Allah, the son of Abu Talib2 is more familiar with death than an infant with the breast of its mother. I have hidden knowledge, if I disclose it you will start trembling like ropes in deep wells...."(3)

(1)The Sunni Theory of Government

https://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-ashgar-razwy/sunni-theory-government

(2) Known as the Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyah

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-abu-quhafah

(3) Sermon 5: O people, steer clear through the waves of mischief...

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-5-o-people-steer-clear-through-waves-mischief

*****

Basic issue defined here:

 

*****

 

 

[S.M.H.A.]

On 8/23/2016 at 10:27 AM, Fahad Sani said:

 

What emphasizes the fact that Shura (consultation) was the constitutional system that Imam Amir Muminin Ali bin Abi Talib abided by; and that he had no knowledge of vertical hereditary leadership of the Ahl al-Bayt, is his participation in the Shura process after the death of Caliph Umar bin Khattab, and his arguments before the members of the Shura on his virtues and his role in the service of Islam; so also the fact that he did not point to the issue of the text or his appointment as Khalifah after the Prophet. If the Hadith of Ghadir has any of this import, the Imam would have refered to it, and he would have won the day with what is greater and stronger than mentioning his virtues.

 

Nahjul Balagha part of Letter 62

"Now, Allah the Glorified, deputed Muhammad (may Allah bless him and his descendants) as a warner for all the worlds and a witness for all the prophets. When the Prophet expired, the Muslims quarrelled about power after him. By Allah, it never occurred to me, and I never imagined, that after the Prophet the Arabs would snatch away the caliphate from his Ahlul Bayt (the members of his house), nor that they would take it away from me after him, but I suddenly noticed people surrounding the man to swear him allegiance. 1

I therefore withheld my hand till I saw that many people were reverting from Islam and trying to destroy the religion of Muhammad (may Allah bless him and his descendants). I then feared that if I did not protect Islam and its people and there occurred in it a breach or destruction, it would mean a greater blow to me than the loss of power over you which was, in any case, to last for a few days of which everything would pass away as the mirage passes away, or as the cloud scuds away. Therefore, in these happenings I rose till wrong was destroyed and disappeared, and religion attained peace and safety......"

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-62-people-egypt-sent-through-malik-al-ashtar-when

[S.M.H.A.]

On 8/23/2016 at 10:27 AM, Fahad Sani said:

What emphasizes the fact that Shura (consultation) was the constitutional system

To the members of 'Fahad Sani" & Co. I leave  you with this.( Time to rethink and back fill) 

*****

"Following deductions can be made from Umar's arrangements for finding a khalifa:

1. It is not necessary for the khalifa of the Muslims to be a Qurayshi. Even an emancipated slave like Salim can become their khalifa. The “tradition” that the leaders must be members of the tribe of Quraysh, was cooked up and was attributed to the Prophet on a special occasion, and for a special purpose; it worked in Saqifa, and checkmated the Ansar.

2. The incumbent khalifa can arbitrarily restrict the right and power to choose a new khalifa to five or six men without any reference to the Muslim umma. The Muslim umma can be safely ignored.

3. Within the electoral committee, if a man disagrees with the majority, he merits death, even if he is a friend of the Prophet of Islam; even if he fought at Badr; and even if he is a “Companion of the Tree.” Nothing can save him.

4. The Muslim umma can be left leaderless for three days. It is not necessary to select a new khalifa immediately after the death of the incumbent khalifa. A khalifa was chosen immediately after the death but before the burial of Muhammad Mustafa, on the ground that the Muslim umma ought not to be without a head even for a moment. Umar thus set a new precedent, viz., flexibility in the application of political “principles.”

5. Those drawbacks and shortcomings of character which Umar found in the members of his electoral committee, such as lust, anger, arrogance, conceit, greed, nepotism and ambition, etc., are not a disqualification for khilafat. A man may be arrogant, conceited, henpecked and greedy; he can still become a khalifa of the Muslims. A khalifa does not have to be a man of outstanding character and ability.

https://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-ashgar-razwy/umar-bin-al-khattab-second-khalifa#members-electoral-committee

[ShiaMan14]

Brother @Fahad Sani:

Out of curiosity, let's say you were part of the Shura or had the opportunity of casting the deciding vote.

Out of the 6 members, who would you have voted for and why?

[Fahad Sani]

On 8/26/2016 at 8:22 AM, shiaman14 said:

Brother @Fahad Sani:

Out of curiosity, let's say you were part of the Shura or had the opportunity of casting the deciding vote.

Out of the 6 members, who would you have voted for and why?

I would have voted for Imam Ali a.s. Because he was strict in terms of leadership and about establishment of commands of Quran and Sunnah like Umar r.a.

[Fahad Sani]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2016 by Fahad Sani

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

I would have voted for Imam Ali a.s. Because he was strict in terms of leadership and about establishment of commands of Quran and Sunnah like Umar r.a.

Thank you for your honesty but I slightly disagree with you.

Imam Ali was strict in terms of leadership and about establishment of the commands of Quran and Sunnah like the PROPHET not another caliph.

[Fahad Sani]

15 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Thank you for your honesty but I slightly disagree with you.

Imam Ali was strict in terms of leadership and about establishment of the commands of Quran and Sunnah like the PROPHET not another caliph.

I said this in terms of caliphate so I mentioned the 2nd caliph. In fact 1st, 2nd and fourth caliph all were strict in this regard like the Prophet s.a.w.w while the 3rd caliph was somehow lenient thats why some of his governors/relatives easily cheated and betrayed him.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Fahad Sani

[Haimi]

Assassination plan by Abu bakr,(Khalid ibn walid l.a).

 

[Haimi]

Khalid l.a shrine in Syria.

Then our Askarayn imams a.s shrine.

DO NOT EVEN EVER THINK THAT SAUDI DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT, AND SUNNIES, and all those ugly Wahhabies.

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by Haimi

[ShiaMan14]

10 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

I said this in terms of caliphate so I mentioned the 2nd caliph. In fact 1st, 2nd and fourth caliph all were strict in this regard like the Prophet s.a.w.w while the 3rd caliph was somehow lenient thats why some of his governors/relatives easily cheated and betrayed him.

Hmmmm, I thought you meant it in the way AbdulRehman bin Awf asked Uthman and Ali if they would adhere to Quran, sunnah of Prophet and traditions of Abu Bakr & Umar. Imam Ali only agreed to Quran and Sunnah whereas Uthman agreed to the traditions of the Caliphs too.

Who was right in this case?

[Fahad Sani]

13 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Hmmmm, I thought you meant it in the way AbdulRehman bin Awf asked Uthman and Ali if they would adhere to Quran, sunnah of Prophet and traditions of Abu Bakr & Umar. Imam Ali only agreed to Quran and Sunnah whereas Uthman agreed to the traditions of the Caliphs too.

Who was right in this case?

 

Where it is? Source and the narration?

In fact history show Imam Ali a.s also followed the first two caliphs in many things. Like regarding issue of fadak etc.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Fahad Sani

[ShiaMan14]

8 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

 

 

Where it is? Source and the narration?

In fact history show Imam Ali a.s also followed the first two caliphs in many things. Like regarding issue of fadak etc.

Source and narration? I refuse to believe that someone as knowledgeable has no read bin Awf's decision making process.

Many things? Such as?

Imam Ali usurped Fadak from someone? When? Who from?

[Haimi]

3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Source and narration? I refuse to believe that someone as knowledgeable has no read bin Awf's decision making process.

Many things? Such as?

Imam Ali usurped Fadak from someone? When? Who from?

Now believe me.

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, Haimi said:

Now believe me.

Huh?

[zyzz]

On 24/08/2016 at 0:27 AM, Fahad Sani said:

When the Immigrants and the Helpers came to him and said, “Stretch your hand, we would give you our oath of allegiance”, he withdrew from them. They repeated as the first, and he also withdrew again, and they repeated that for the third time then he said “Leave me and look for another person and know that, if I responded to you, I will do with you what I know…. and if you leave me alone, I am just like one of you, I would be the most obedient and loyal to anyone you choose to conduct your affairs for me to be a vizier is better for you than to be a leader” He walked to Talhah and Zubair and put it across to them and said:” If anyone of you wishes , I will give him my oath of allegiance” They both said “ No … the people accept you more (than any other man). At the end he said to them “If you insist, my oath of allegiance “bayah” must not be secret, and it will not be taken till after the acceptance of the (general) Muslim populace, so I will go out to the Masjid (mosque) anyone who wishes to give his oath of allegiance to me let him do it”.  Tabari, vol. 3 p. 450

LOL this is proof that Ali (as) disapproved of the "election" of abu bakr. he says "bayah must not be secret" and yet 99% of the muslims had no idea there was an election happening at saqifah, so hes clearly criticizing abu bakr and umar for scamming the ummah.