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In the Name of God بسم الله

If mawla=leader/caliph then Ali is not your mawla

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Fahad Sani

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:bismillah:

:salam:

 

If by word mawla at ghadir means leader/caliph/imam then Ali a.s is not your Mawla.

According to twelver shia Imamate concept, Prophet s.a.w.w had appointed Ali a.s mawla (leader/caliph/suucessor/imam) after him at ghadir. And there are twelve such mawla (leaders/caliphs/suucessors/imams) after Prophet s.a.w.w till the day of qiyamah. And every person has to recognize Mawla/Imam of his time. Isra 71 says: One day We shall call together all human beings with their respective Imams.

Based on these principles, Ali a.s was mawla i.e leader/Imam/caliph only for people of his time.

Ali a.s, the first of the Twelve Imams, died in the year 40. His son Hassan a.s died nine years later, in 49. If Ali a.s is the Imam for the people of his time, Hassan a.s is left with only those people who were born during his nine years. All the other people of his time who were alive during his father's time will form part of his father's group, and not his. The tenure of the 3rd Imam lasted for 22 years; the 4th for 34 years; the 5th for 19 years; the 6th for 34 years; the 7th for 35 years; the 8th for 20 years; the 9th for 17 years; the 10th for 34 years; and the 11th for only 6 years. And with the 12th Imam, we have a tenure of Imamah that has been running for over 1200 years. The group that will supposedly be called by the name of the 11th Imam, for example, will only include people that were born during his Imamah that ran from 254 up to 260, rest of all till qiyamah will be called by the name of 12th Imam.

Therefore since 260AH till today and till the qiyamah, 12th Imam was, is and will be the Mawla (leader/caliph) for all people (as per twelver shia concept). They all will be called and idetified by his name on qiyamah not by the name of Ali a.s. He was mawla (leader/imam) only till 40AH and for people of his time only.

 

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2 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Isra 71 says: One day We shall call together all human beings with their respective Imams.

^ Can someone confrim this translation? I see the following online;

"

[Mention, O Muhammad], the Day We will call forth every people with their record [of deeds]. Then whoever is given his record in his right hand - those will read their records, and injustice will not be done to them, [even] as much as a thread [inside the date seed].

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14. in the name of God

Salam brother;

    As you mentioned the Holy] Qur'an says, "The day We shall summon every group of people with their imam…"  17:71       "يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ"                                                

    There are two kinds of leaders and Imams; leaders of guidance and leaders of misguidance. Everyone will be resurrected with one who chosen as leader and Imam. As Shias nowadays are followers of Imam Mahdi (a.s) they will be gathered in the hereafter with him. It has been narrated from Imam Reza who narrated a Hadith from previous Imams from the prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h), " in the day of judgement everyone will be called to Imam of his time, to the Holy Book and to his prophet's manners". We have to notice that people will be resurrected with everyone who is followed and obeyed. Of course, all people will be gathered with his Imam but it is noteworthy that we also believe in other 11 Imams before Imam of the Time. We love them, we obey them and we follow them. The doctrines and teachings we got from them are the same with no difference.

    This verse is not contradicted with the fact that the other 11 Imams are shias' as well. The important thing here is that our Imams are all united light. Their mission was the same. They all invited people, called them and guided them to the right and strait path which is the message of prophet Muhammad from his Lord.  

    Under this verse late Tabresi in his prominent Tafsir, Jawami' al-Jami', says , " the meaning of Imam in this verse is leader and a person who is followed i.g. infallible Imams, prophets, and holy Books" then narrates a hadith from Imam Saddiq that said, "don't you thank God when resurrection and judgement day comes, every nation will be called and invited to those whom or that they loved in the material world; we will go toward Allah and you cry and call us. Then you think where you will be taken. I swear by God that you will enter paradise.(1)

Ali ibn Ibrahim al- Qummi in his Tafsir named Tafsir al- Qummi for the interpretation of this verse says, "in the day of judgement a caller calling the certain person to stand along with his followers … and the Ali (a.s) with his followers and his shias. (2)

 

  1. الا تحمدون اللَّه؟ اذا كان يوم القيمة فدعى كل قوم الى من يتولونه و فزعنا الى رسول اللَّه صلى اللَّه عليه و آله و فزعتم الينا، فالى اين ترون يذهب بكم؟ الى الجنة و رب الكعبة.

  2. ذلك يوم القيامة ينادي مناد ليقم فلان و شيعته و فلان و شيعته و فلان و شيعته و علي و شيعته.

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Man, dont you get it?

It doesnt matter if we are called with Imam Ali (a.s) or Imam Hussain (a.s) or Al-Qa'im (a.s). As long as we are raised with one of them, we know for a fact we will be raised with All of them - and thus raised with the Prophet (pbuh) and his followers.

(Ameen, ya Rab!)

Its a package deal, friend. 

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Prophet s.a.w.w is my mawla (beloved and dearest one) and in the same way Ali a.s is my mawla (beloved and dearest one).
 
I said if by mawla mean leader/caliph etc then Ali a.s is not mawla of anyone today. He was mawla in this meaning only till 40 AH. Then Imam Hassan a.s became mawla (leader/suuccesor/caliph) and so on, according to twelver shias. True or not?

Here is the major evidence.

Ghadir was an event that took place in the year 11 AH, after that the words “Man Kuntu Mawlahu” were not heard again in the near future, they were not heard when Abu Bakr usurped the Caliphate (according to the Shias). They were not heard when Abu Bakr was on his deathbed and appointed Umar as a successor. They were not heard when Umar was on his deathbed and included Ali with five other candidates to Khilafah. They were not heard when Uthman was killed and the Khawarij were looking for a new Caliph. They were not even heard during the wars of Ali and the internal wars between the Muslims. No, they were heard merely a hundred days before the death of Ali during his reign as Caliph.

Fitr bin Khalifah testified that this event occurred only a hundred days before the death of Ali. See Saheeh Ibn Hibban #7057. In other words, this event occurred way after the battles of Al-Jamal, Siffeen, and Al-Nahrawan, which puts to rest the idea that Ali was attempting to prove his legitimacy by quoting the narration of the Prophet (saws), since Al-Nahrawan occurred in the year 39 AH, and Ali died in Ramadan, 40 AH. Even Amir bin Wathilah first heard of this narration at Rahbah as is clear from his narration, then he went to ask Zayd and verify.

Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah (Hadith #28 of the Chapter of the Merits of Ali) says that this was done when Ali heard that people were “Yataqawaloon Feeh,” meaning "they spoke badly of him".

Furthermore, entire nahjul balagha is free from hadith of ghadir (isn't it), which is divine appointment according to twelvers (strange). I wonder why Ali a.s did not mention this in any of his sermons. In reality he used this hadith only once, hundered days before his demise and at that time he was already a caliph/leader. Strange, really strange.

Therefore we can safely say that Ali a.s  (including all prominent sahabah) did not understand the Hadith of Ghadir to be an appointment of successor/leader. If that was the case, then he has definitely missed out on several key opportunities.


Peace be upon our master and leader Muhammad, and upon his family and companions and those who followed them in goodness.

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The meaning of love, friendship and closeness is what seems to be the closest to the truth based on the context, since Rasul-Allah s.a.w.w said right after it “O Allah befriend whomever befriends him and be an enemy to whoever is his enemy.” And Muwalat (Love/Friendship) opposes Mu'adat (Hatred/Enmity), along with verse 6 of Surah Ahzab (Prophet is awla).

-Mawla means a close-friend, the word itself implies closeness in all of its meanings whether describing a bond between relatives or the relation of a slave to his master, so he (saw) could be simply telling them that whoever considers him (saw) as a close friend or Wali, then he must also be like that with Ali. Similarly to what we call the pious believers, we say they’re “Awliya of Allah” the singular of which is Wali, meaning close friends of Allah.

-Mawla means a beloved person, similar to the above he could be ordering them to love Ali just as they loved him, and thus the feelings of hatred they had for him would disappear, this is why Buraydah said: “After hearing these words, Ali became the most beloved of people to me.”

-Mawla may mean al-Wala’-fil-Deen, meaning the obligatory love and closeness that a believer must have towards another, or the love and closeness between those who share the same faith and religion, this is similar to the Qur’anic verse {The believing men and the believing women are Awliya’ to one another}, so whoever is of this faith and has this type of love towards the Prophet (saw) must also have it towards `Ali as declared in the Qur’an.

-Mawla means ally, and the ally in the language of the Arabs is the one who joins you and is strengthened by your strength and gets more power when you’re powerful, this is the blessing which the Muslims received by embracing this faith and  following this Prophet (saw), such as the saying of `Umar: “We are people whom Allah strengthened with this religion, so if we seek strength by any other means He shall disgrace us.” Thus the Prophet (saw) is telling them that whoever considers himself his ally, must also be `Ali’s ally.

-Mawla means supporter, the support in religion, like protecting and guarding and supporting one another as believers, such as the saying of Allah {Allah is the Mawla(supporter) of those who believed while the disbelievers have no Mawla} and {But if you cooperate against him – then indeed Allah is his Mawla(supporter), and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are his assistants.} And so the Prophet (saw) informed them that whomever claims to have Walayah towards him must also have Walayah for Ali since they are all believers and must all support each-other in their religion.

-Mawla means Awla, or that he is nearer to the believers and closer to the believers than themselves, meaning he is more worthy of being loved by the believers than their own selves, and by doing so he (saw) would have granted `Ali a higher form of love than what is usually asked of the believers among each other.


Peace be upon our master and leader Muhammad, and upon his family and companions and those who followed them in goodness.

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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:


I said if by mawla mean leader/caliph etc

What  is your opinion , if Mawla does mean All (Khalifa/Chalip/Vicegerent/Guardian/Wali/Ulul Amir / Hujjah of Allah(awj) your Imam?

 

What is your opinion on Battle of Jamal?

 

About Mawla Hassan(as)?

 

You see, you will always have to deflect, because if you do understand /acknowledge the  Real meaning of Mawla? Everything will come crashing down. (It is a lot of stake here). 

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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The teachings of the Ahlul Bayt aren't contradictory. There what Imam Ali taught is not going to contridict what Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq taught. Whence after Rasollah(SAW), Imam Ali is our Mawla/leader. There is no problem with saying in any of the ahlul bayt are our Mawlas. 

 

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7 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Prophet s.a.w.w is my mawla (beloved and dearest one) and in the same way Ali a.s is my mawla (beloved and dearest one).
 
I said if by mawla mean leader/caliph etc then Ali a.s is not mawla of anyone today. He was mawla in this meaning only till 40 AH. Then Imam Hassan a.s became mawla (leader/suuccesor/caliph) and so on, according to twelver shias. True or not?

The prophet is our Mawla  and Imam Ali id our Mawla . The following verses mention the authority of Mawla for us which break your supposition into pries:

[Say, “Obey Allah and the Messenger.” But if they turn away – then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.] (3:32)

[And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.] (3:132)

[All who obey Allah and the messenger are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship!]!(4:69)

[And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away – then know that upon Our Messenger is only [the responsibility for] clear notification.] (5:92)

[So fear Allah and amend that which is between you and obey Allah and His Messenger, if you should be believers.] (8:1)

[O you who have believed, obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn from him while you hear [his order].] (8:20)

[And obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not dispute and [thus] lose courage and [then] your strength would depart; and be patient.] (8:46)

[Allah says: “…Obey Allah and His Messenger…”] (33:33)

[One who disobeys God and His Messenger is in plain error.](33:36)

[O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and do not invalidate your deeds.] (47:33)

 

Edited by skamran110
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On ‏۰۳‏/‏۰۶‏/‏۱۳۹۵ at 9:37 AM, Fahad Sani said:

Prophet s.a.w.w is my mawla (beloved and dearest one) and in the same way Ali a.s is my mawla (beloved and dearest one).
 
I said if by mawla mean leader/caliph etc then Ali a.s is not mawla of anyone today. He was mawla in this meaning only till 40 AH. Then Imam Hassan a.s became mawla (leader/suuccesor/caliph) and so on, according to twelver shias. True or not?

Here is the major evidence.

Ghadir was an event that took place in the year 11 AH, after that the words “Man Kuntu Mawlahu” were not heard again in the near future, they were not heard when Abu Bakr usurped the Caliphate (according to the Shias). They were not heard when Abu Bakr was on his deathbed and appointed Umar as a successor. They were not heard when Umar was on his deathbed and included Ali with five other candidates to Khilafah. They were not heard when Uthman was killed and the Khawarij were looking for a new Caliph. They were not even heard during the wars of Ali and the internal wars between the Muslims. No, they were heard merely a hundred days before the death of Ali during his reign as Caliph.

Fitr bin Khalifah testified that this event occurred only a hundred days before the death of Ali. See Saheeh Ibn Hibban #7057. In other words, this event occurred way after the battles of Al-Jamal, Siffeen, and Al-Nahrawan, which puts to rest the idea that Ali was attempting to prove his legitimacy by quoting the narration of the Prophet (saws), since Al-Nahrawan occurred in the year 39 AH, and Ali died in Ramadan, 40 AH. Even Amir bin Wathilah first heard of this narration at Rahbah as is clear from his narration, then he went to ask Zayd and verify.

Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah (Hadith #28 of the Chapter of the Merits of Ali) says that this was done when Ali heard that people were “Yataqawaloon Feeh,” meaning "they spoke badly of him".

Furthermore, entire nahjul balagha is free from hadith of ghadir (isn't it), which is divine appointment according to twelvers (strange). I wonder why Ali a.s did not mention this in any of his sermons. In reality he used this hadith only once, hundered days before his demise and at that time he was already a caliph/leader. Strange, really strange.

Therefore we can safely say that Ali a.s  (including all prominent sahabah) did not understand the Hadith of Ghadir to be an appointment of successor/leader. If that was the case, then he has definitely missed out on several key opportunities.


Peace be upon our master and leader Muhammad, and upon his family and companions and those who followed them in goodness.

salam;

    Imagine that you are my friend and you want to seperat from me to travel to a city far away from me. After saying "good bye" and passing much kilometers I send to you a massage to come back and I want to say something very important and essential to you. When you come back to me I huge you and state, " oh! My friend, I really love you and you are my best friend". What would be your reaction in this circumstance? You will say, "you are so carrasy and stupid. You called me after passing such this distance to say that you love me!  

    Such this story applied for the event of "Ghadir" if we believe in the meaning "love of Ali" for the word "Mowla".

    You think that prophet Muhammad called people coming back from farewell pilgrimage and gathered them, in the desert under the sun shining extremely, to elaborate that Ali was your friend and love him then other Muslims approached him to say, "congratulation Ali"!!!!!

 

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On ‏۰۳‏/‏۰۶‏/‏۱۳۹۵ at 9:37 AM, Fahad Sani said:

Prophet s.a.w.w is my mawla (beloved and dearest one) and in the same way Ali a.s is my mawla (beloved and dearest one).
 
I said if by mawla mean leader/caliph etc then Ali a.s is not mawla of anyone today. He was mawla in this meaning only till 40 AH. Then Imam Hassan a.s became mawla (leader/suuccesor/caliph) and so on, according to twelver shias. True or not?

Here is the major evidence.

Ghadir was an event that took place in the year 11 AH, after that the words “Man Kuntu Mawlahu” were not heard again in the near future, they were not heard when Abu Bakr usurped the Caliphate (according to the Shias). They were not heard when Abu Bakr was on his deathbed and appointed Umar as a successor. They were not heard when Umar was on his deathbed and included Ali with five other candidates to Khilafah. They were not heard when Uthman was killed and the Khawarij were looking for a new Caliph. They were not even heard during the wars of Ali and the internal wars between the Muslims. No, they were heard merely a hundred days before the death of Ali during his reign as Caliph.

Fitr bin Khalifah testified that this event occurred only a hundred days before the death of Ali. See Saheeh Ibn Hibban #7057. In other words, this event occurred way after the battles of Al-Jamal, Siffeen, and Al-Nahrawan, which puts to rest the idea that Ali was attempting to prove his legitimacy by quoting the narration of the Prophet (saws), since Al-Nahrawan occurred in the year 39 AH, and Ali died in Ramadan, 40 AH. Even Amir bin Wathilah first heard of this narration at Rahbah as is clear from his narration, then he went to ask Zayd and verify.

Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah (Hadith #28 of the Chapter of the Merits of Ali) says that this was done when Ali heard that people were “Yataqawaloon Feeh,” meaning "they spoke badly of him".

Furthermore, entire nahjul balagha is free from hadith of ghadir (isn't it), which is divine appointment according to twelvers (strange). I wonder why Ali a.s did not mention this in any of his sermons. In reality he used this hadith only once, hundered days before his demise and at that time he was already a caliph/leader. Strange, really strange.

Therefore we can safely say that Ali a.s  (including all prominent sahabah) did not understand the Hadith of Ghadir to be an appointment of successor/leader. If that was the case, then he has definitely missed out on several key opportunities.


Peace be upon our master and leader Muhammad, and upon his family and companions and those who followed them in goodness.

 

In His name

Salam;

    First of all, I have to mention that Hadith of Ghadir is Mutawatir and narrated frequently by both Shi'ite and Sunni fellows and scholars. Allama Amini has compiled all narrations on this event in his book "AL- Ghadir" from Fariqayn.

    Secondly, if we consider the meaning of " Mowla" as "friendship" or "love", it was meaningless for other Sahabah i.g. Umar to congratulate Ali on that. One evidence for the meaning " Wali", "Chaliph" and "successor" of the word "Mowla" is that at the time of this event in Ghadir Khum one the Sahabah (Harith ibn Nu'man al-Fihri) complained and asked God to descend a chastisement and doom if this matter is true. Allamah Amini has narrated this story from 30 Sunni sources. (Al-Ghadir, vol. 1, p. 246). Did this meaning (love of Ali) caused Harith to do such a this behavior? In different occasions the Holy Prophet invited Muslims to love Ali and also other companions but no body angered and annoyed as Harith did.

    Thirdly, if you take a look at the historical and Hadithi sources, you will be able to find Imam Ali's argumentations on this Hadith in different occasions before and after his caliphate (Al-Ghadir, vol. 1, p. 159). Also lady Fatima al- Zahara used this Hadith to prove Ali's right for caliphate and imamate (Muhammad bn Muhammad al-Juruzi al- Damishqi, Asma al-Manaqib fi Tahzib Asna al-Matalib, p.32). other companions also argued over Ali's right on this Hadith (Al-Ghadir, vol. 1, pp. 198-213).    

    From the other side, as Imam Ali saw that they argue for their right for caliphate on their kinship to the prophet Muhammad, so he tried to argue against them with his kinship and relationship to him. In different sermon of Nahj al- Balagha you can see that Imam Ali (a.s) argued for his right for caliphate.  (sermon no. 2,3,26 and etc.). it is noteworthy that Nahj al-Balagha the only book which has collected the sermons and words of Imam Ali. Sayyed Razi, the author of this book, has mentioned that he tried to compile those words and sayings of Imam Ali which are rhetorically and oratorically in high level.

    At last, I have to draw your attention to this issue that contrary to your idea, Imam Ali argued on this Hadith for his right. In order to know Imam's argumentation on this Hadith you can refer to these sources:

  • Al-Kharazmi, al-Manaqib, p. 217.

  • Ibn Hanbal, al- Musnad, published by Shakir, hadith no. 950.

  • Murooj al-Zahab, vol. 2, p. 364,

  • Al- Ghadir, vol. 1, pp. 186-87.

  • Al- Mustadrak, vol. 3, p. 371.

   In order to find more information about the event of Ghadir on detail, please go to:

 

 

 

Edited by TAJODDIN
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Question.

If Ghadir was the announcement of BEST FRIENDSHIP 100% FRIENDS FOR ALL TIME, then why doesnt Abu Bakr get an announcing? Or Umar? Or the most pious of men, Uthman, who makes Angels blush?

I mean, one of them is literally called Abu Bakr 'The Friend'. 

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@Fahad Sani, read 5:55 and find out the meaning of "Vali". Allah is your Vali, similarly Mumammad (PBUH) is your Vali & similarly, Ali (a.s) is you Vali.

Do you claim to have friendship with Allah?

The hadith "Mun kunto Mola" is amongst many of those ahadith in which Prophet has introduced Ali (a.s) as his wasi, & wazeer. From Zulasheera to Ghadeer, there are many ahadith present.

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On 8/29/2016 at 11:50 AM, Spiritual said:

@Fahad Sani, read 5:55 and find out the meaning of "Vali". Allah is your Vali, similarly Mumammad (PBUH) is your Vali & similarly, Ali (a.s) is you Vali.

Do you claim to have friendship with Allah?

The hadith "Mun kunto Mola" is amongst many of those ahadith in which Prophet has introduced Ali (a.s) as his wasi, & wazeer. From Zulasheera to Ghadeer, there are many ahadith present.

Brother, read from Maida 51 to 56 atleast and try to understand the context. All those verses are related. Word wali has several meanings like word mawla and the correct meaning being used depends on the context. First try to understand and interpret quran from quran itself. Then look for ahadith and other stuff for futher detail.

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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

Word wali has several meanings like word mawla and the correct meaning being used depends on the context. 

Yes depeding on the context, thats why i referred you 5:55

There is no need to see previous of next verses. The meaning of wali is same for all three personalities i.e., Allah, Rasool & alladhina yuqemmona assalata wa yotuna azzakata wa hum rakeoon.

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