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In the Name of God بسم الله

72 Virgins Shia Hadiths

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Salam everyone! Hope you're all doing well inshallah. 

Okay so I've gotten into a discussion with I think a non Muslim about 72 virgins in Jannah in Islam. I do not deny that there are virgins and whatever in Jannah but I haven't found any Shia hadiths claiming this specific number and I don't think it's as literal as many people take it. Anyway she said she had some Shia hadiths to prove me wrong but they're in Arabic and I can't read Arabic. So I'm going to post them here and I'm hoping someone will be able to translate them for me so I can understand them and maybe discuss their authenticity. I have no idea what they say. 

الحور العين هو إسم يشير إلى إعتقاد إسلامي لكائنات في الجنة، ويكن نساء أعددن لأصحاب الجنة من الرجال ويفوق جمالهن الوصف. ثبت في السنَّة النبوية أن للشهيد اثنتين وسبعين من الحور العين. وأن أدنى أهل الجنة له زوجتان. ومنهم من له أكثر من ذلك. فعن المقدام بن معدي كرب قال: قال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم): " للشهيد عند الله ست خصال: يغفر له في أول دفعة من دمه، ويرى مقعده من الجنة، ويجار من عذاب القبر، ويأمن من الفزع الأكبر، ويوضع على رأسه تاج الوقار الياقوتة منها خير من الدنيا وما فيها، ويزوج اثنتين وسبعين زوجة من الحور العين، ويشفع في سبعين من أقاربه [1].

" وبالنسبة لنساء الدنيا في الجنة فإن الله عز وجل يكسوهن جمالا يتفوقن به على الحور العين[2].

 

 

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Salam :)

This is the same hadith on wikipedia. I was trying to find the source of the hadith since your friend didn't provide one (intentional or not) and came across the english version of it. God bless whoever created the copy paste feature! 

It was reported in the hadeeth of al-Miqdaam ibn Ma’di Karb that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“The martyr (shaheed) has seven blessings from Allaah: he is forgiven from the moment his blood is first shed; he will be shown his place in Paradise; he will be spared the trial of the grave; and he will be secure on the Day of the Greatest Terror (the Day of Judgement); there will be placed on his head a crown of dignity, one ruby of which is better than this world and all that is in it; he will be married to seventy-two of al-hoor al-‘iyn; and he will be permitted to intercede for seventy of his relatives.”

According to another report, the martyr has six blessings from Allaah. According to other reports (the number is) six, or nine, or ten.

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, who said it is a hasan hadeeth. Also narrated by Ibn Maajah in al-Sunan, by Ahmad, by ‘Abd al-Razzaaq in al-Musannaf, by al-Tabaraani in al-Kabeer, and by Sa’eed ibn Mansoor in al-Sunan).

^This is a sunni source. I will give my personal opinion later today inshallah. I'm using my phone and it's running out of charge. Hope this helped :)

 

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Honestly I don't see why 

5 hours ago, j.angel said:

Why is this topic so controversial? I'm sure if someone went to Heaven, where you can ask for whatever they want, and they want 72 virgins that they'd get them. Likewise if a man simply wants his wife, he can get her. The whole point of Paradise is to feel happy. 

Some females search so hard to dismiss this simply because they cannot accept the fact that their husband wants someone else. Human jealously doesn't exist in Paradise, just like how your friend who doesn't pray or fast as much as you do, gets into Heaven but not on the same level as you, but still feels happy for you.

This is because such a notion is a feable way on man's sexual desires and lusts. It is a worldy thing and the reality is heaven is beyond this material world. We cannot comprehend heaven or fathom what is it in, so the quran quantifies it in a human way. 

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If a woman went to paradise and asked Allah for her husband to be for her alone, then he will be for her alone. Someone may say that a contradiction may arise when the husband wants multiple and a female wants only him to be for her, then they should know that a conflict of interest does not exist in paradise. Whatever the husband wants the wife will want, and whatever the wife will want the husband will want. The details of paradise are not fully clear, but in paradise you will get whatever you desire even if your wish is for your husband to be yours alone. Everything will fall into place once we're there.

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3 minutes ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

If a woman went to paradise and asked Allah for her husband to be for her alone, then he will be for her alone. Someone may say that a contradiction may arise when the husband wants multiple and a female wants only him to be for her, then they should know that a conflict of interest does not exist in paradise. Whatever the husband wants the wife will want, and whatever the wife will want the husband will want. The details of paradise are not fully clear, but in paradise you will get whatever you desire even if your wish is for your husband to be yours alone. Everything will fall into place once we're there.

You have to remember though the things you state are an entirely materialistic way of thinking. When we die, we will transcend. Not just physically but also metaphysically. We probably won't even think in such terms, because such terms are thought of from negative emotions like lust. 

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Just now, humanbeing101 said:

You have to remember though the things you state are an entirely materialistic way of thinking. When we die, we will transcend. Not just physically but also metaphysically. We probably won't even think in such terms, because such terms are thought of from negative emotions like lust. 

There will be desire for your wife in paradise in the sexual form. Our paradise is also physical. In paradise we eat, we drink, we walk around, we recline, we have relations with our wife, we talk and we hear things,etc. 

Please don't try to change the Qur'an and Sunnah for a boring, bland, uninteresting platonic heaven where we are just "floating bodies."

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Just now, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

There will be desire for your wife in paradise in the sexual form. Our paradise is also physical. In paradise we eat, we drink, we walk around, we recline, we have relations with our wife, we talk and we hear things,etc. 

Please don't try to change the Qur'an and Sunnah for a boring, bland, uninteresting platonic heaven where we are just "floating bodies."

Can you actually back up anything you stated? You don't seem to understand what I said. You're taking an ultra-literalistic approach to the quran. I'm not talking platonic love. I'm talking about lust. There is a clear difference bewteen Lust of 72 unknown women who you want to use for sexual pleasure and love of one woman. 

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Just now, humanbeing101 said:

Can you actually back up anything you stated? You don't seem to understand what I said. You're taking an ultra-literalistic approach to the quran. I'm not talking platonic love. I'm talking about lust. There is a clear difference bewteen Lust of 72 unknown women who you want to use for sexual pleasure and love of one woman. 

I'm not talking about "platonic love." You misunderstood the term I used. By you asking me to back up what I said regarding eating, drinking,etc, I take it that you're describing a heretical platonic heaven where we aren't physical bodies but rather metaphysical floating spirits.

We eat in heaven, this is in the Qur'an. We have a relationship with our wives in heaven that is sexual in nature. This is in the Qur'an.

We talk in heaven. We also recline and drink.

Which part do you want me to back up with Islamic resources?

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2 minutes ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

I'm not talking about "platonic love." You misunderstood the term I used. By you asking me to back up what I said regarding eating, drinking,etc, I take it that you're describing a heretical platonic heaven where we aren't physical bodies but rather metaphysical floating spirits.

We eat in heaven, this is in the Qur'an. We have a relationship with our wives in heaven that is sexual in nature. This is in the Qur'an.

We talk in heaven. We also recline and drink.

Which part do you want me to back up with Islamic resources?

 Are we physical beings with a metaphysical aspect to us? If you accept this, then it cannot be hard to comprehend the fact our immaterial aspect is the one thing that will trascend. I'm not sure where you get "heretical" from. I never mentioned anything in regards to Plato, you did. Second you are talking about heaven as if you've been there, with such certainty. I'm sure you probably have conceptualized heaven in your head. This is clearly what the Quran aimed to do for the Arabs at the time. Why? Since they had no concept of heaven. Whence the Quran related heaven to the pleasures Arabs were familar with. All the descriptions the Quran provides are allegorical in regards to heaven.

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“... there will be there all that the souls could desire, all that the eyes could delight in …” (Quran 43:71)

“… They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade.  They will recline therein on raised thrones.  How good [is] the recompense!  How beautiful a couch [is there] to recline on!” (Quran 18:31)

"They will recline (with ease) on Thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks..." (52:20).

Paradise, or al-firdaws, as it is called in Arabic, is a loan word. The Arabs to whom Prophet Muhammad (S) was sent had no concept whatsoever of life after death, of heaven and hell. This is one of the main challenges faced by the Prophet (S) when he started preaching Islam to them.

https://www.al-islam.org/fast-month-ramadhan-philosophy-and-ahkam-yasin-t-al-jibouri/glance-paradise-and-hell

 

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Are we physical beings with a metaphysical aspect to us? If you accept this, then it cannot be hard to comprehend the fact our immaterial aspect is the one thing that will trascend. I'm not sure where you get "heretical" from. I never mentioned anything in regards to Plato, you did.

What you just described above is platonic has absolutely nothing to do with our religion. Our souls do not transcend to heaven without a body, this is classic platonic understanding of heaven and is heretical. We believe in Islam that when we die, we are resurrected both soul and body. This new body will be in its 30s, and will not be corruptible nor decay. With this body we eat, we drink, we have relations with our wives,etc. This is what Islam has taught us.

No offense bro, but If you want to believe in the hippie platonic metaphysical floating bodies, no sexual relations or eating, 72 white grapes not 72 wives sufi version of heaven, then you can. The Qur'an is very clear. Our resurrection is physical. Its actually considered kufr to deny it.
 

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10 minutes ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

What you just described above is platonic has absolutely nothing to do with our religion. Our souls do not transcend to heaven without a body, this is classic platonic understanding of heaven and is heretical. We believe in Islam that when we die, we are resurrected both soul and body. This new body will be in its 30s, and will not be corruptible nor decay. With this body we eat, we drink, we have relations with our wives,etc. This is what Islam has taught us.

No offense bro, but If you want to believe in the hippie platonic metaphysical floating bodies, no sexual relations or eating, 72 white grapes not 72 wives sufi version of heaven, then you can. The Qur'an is very clear. Our resurrection is physical. Its actually considered kufr to deny it.
 

You never addressed any single point I raised. You decided to latch onto this notion I'm a heretic and declare takfir on me. I never name called you a name or disrespected you, nor will I. Please address my points. 

It appears the part where I stated there is an immaterial nature to us physical beings went over your head. 

You also ignored where descriptions of heaven in the Quran are allegorical and used in order for our feable minds to conceptualize heaven and hell. 

Plus you never provide references of evidence for any claim or statement you make. 

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I never made takfir on you. I said what our Imams [as] have said. Anyone who denies the body's resurrection is not a Muslim anymore. Its clearly spelled out in the Qur'an clear as day. Our bodies are resurrected.

Saying that we are simply souls which leave the body and go to heaven, or that only our souls  will be resurrected (which by the way isn't even resurrection) without a bodily resurrection is denying the resurrection which is denying one of the usul of Islam.

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@Abu-Jafar Herz Bro what? He never said that only our souls will be Resurrected. Also you keep claiming that this is in the Holy Quran, but you have yet to provide any reference. (i.e we will be 30 years old). Also correct me if I'm wrong, but 72 wives is not mentioned in Quran? I know Houris are, but not "72 wives" as far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

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btw, I'm not saying that you're denying anything or that you're going into kufr. Please don't misunderstand. I'm simply telling you dear brother what the principles of our religion which aren't allowed to be denied without invalidating Islam.

Do you want me to lie to you and tell you thats its ok believe what you want?

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4 minutes ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

I never made takfir on you. I said what our Imams [as] have said. Anyone who denies the body's resurrection is not a Muslim anymore. Its clearly spelled out in the Qur'an clear as day. Our bodies are resurrected.

Saying that we are simply souls which leave the body and go to heaven, or that only our souls  will be resurrected (which by the way isn't even resurrection) without a bodily resurrection is denying the resurrection which is denying one of the usul of Islam.

I can read inbewteen the lines, you are telling me I'm not a muslim. This literally has nothing to do with resurrection or Barzakh, do not change the topic please. 

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Saying that we are simply souls which leave the body and go to heaven, or that only our souls  will be resurrected (which by the way isn't even resurrection) without a bodily resurrection is denying the resurrection which is denying one of the usul of Islam.

Can you quote me on that? You seem spew things which I made no mention of. 

What our imams say are here:

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(16) Death is a Transition

 
These Guides have taught us that death is not the end of life. In the Qur'anic language, Death is not 'anti-life'. It is not 'nothing'. Like 'Life', 'Death' is a 'Created thing'. Allah says in the Qur'an:

“Blessed be He………..Who has created death and life, so that He might test you which of you is most righteous in action”. (Qur'an, 67:1-2) 
 
And the Creator of Death and Life has decreed that a Soul, once created, will never perish. It will live for ever. The Holy Prophet (S) has said: “You have not been created for extinction, but for eternal existence”.1
 
According to Islamic teachings, death is a continuation of life, but in another place. Once we accept this Truth, it stands to reason that those who would be obedient to Allah, leading virtuous life, would welcome the chance of leaving this transitory world, to live in eternal bliss in the sight of Allah. For such persons, death is a welcome and pleasant stage through which they gladly pass to reach their desired goal.
 
On the other hand, if his life is spent in transgression of the commands of Allah, he will understandably shrink from the name of death. For such a person, death is the beginning of eternal misery and disgrace. Therefore, he is bound to hate death.
Allah addresses the Holy Prophet in the Qur'an, in these words:-

'Say, 'O ye who follow the Jewish religion! if you say that you are the friends of God above other men, then wish for death if you speak truth?' But they will never wish for it, because of that which their hands have sent before them; and God well knows the unjust.” (Qur'an, 62:6-7 )

 
These two aspects of death are explained by all the Masumeen (peace be on them all); and in the next chapter some traditions are quoted for the benefit of the readers.

Imam Husain (A) on Ashura Day: “Patience, O Children of noble (souls), because death is nothing but a bridge which takes you from difficulties and troubles to the vast Paradise and everlasting bliss. So, who among you would dislike to transfer from the prison of the world to the palace of the Paradise? But these enemies of yours will go from a palace to a prison and ever-lasting punishment. Verily my father quoting the Messenger of Allah said that; 'Verily the world is the prison for the believers and paradise for the unbelivers'. And the death is the bridge for these (believers) to their Gardens, and for those (unbelievers) to their Hell. I do not tell lies, nor was I told lies”.

Imam Zainul Abcdecn (AS), in reply to a question about death, said: “It is for the believer like removing a dirty lousy cloth, or like removing heavy shackles and chains; and changing to the finest and best clothes, or finest horses and most lovely abode.
“And for an unbeliever it is like changing fine dresses and cosy abodes for dirtiest and roughest clothes and worst and most unspacious abode and greatest punishment”.
 
Imam Muhammad Baquir (A) in reply to a question stated: ”(Death) is like sleep that comes to you every night; but this is a sleep which is very long and there is no awakening but on the Day of resurrection……………………………………………”
 
Imam Jafer Sadiq (A) was requested to explain death. He said: “It is for a believer like fragrant breeze, by smelling which he becomes revived, and every trouble and sorrow is removed from him. And for an unbeliever it is like snake-bite and sting of the scorpions, and even worse”.

https://www.al-islam.org/day-of-judgement-sayyid-akhtar-rizvi/part-2-death-and-after#16-death-transition

Now to your point about resurrection:

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(37) Resurrection of the Body

 
Resurrection of the body is one of the cardinal beliefs of Islam; if anyone, knowing this fact, rejects it, he is not a Muslim at all. It will not be out of place to point out here that people are divided into four groups on this subject:-

    1. There are atheists, who do not admit the existence of the Creator, and as a result, do not admit that He would resurrect us after our death.

In my book, God: An Islamic Perspective, enough has been written to show the baselessnes of atheism. Some more remarks will be given in the course of other discussions.
 
    2. There are those who accept the existence of a Creator, but reject the idea of the resurrection of body. According to them, the reward and punishment mentioned in the Qur'an and Ahadith will be given to the soul only; the body will not be resurrected after death.

 
    3. Those, like the Muslims, who believe that the Qiyamat will be for the body and soul together.

 
    4. Agnostics, who say that they do not know, and in the nature of things, cannot know any thing about soul, or matters concerned with it. They neither admit nor reject the existence of the Creator or Day of Judgement.

 
When we look at the writings and arguments of those who refuse to believe in the resurrection of the bodies, it boils down to only one thing: Astonishment. How can the body be resurrected after death when it has already turned into dust?
 
There is no other argument to prove that the body cannot be resurrected. There is a sense of bewilderment as to how can it be done.
 
Allah has commented in numerous Ayats on this type of “argument”. A fewAyats are given here for enlightenment:-
“And if thou wouldst wonder, then wonderous is their saying: 'What, when we are dust would we really then be in a creation renewed?' These are they who disbelieve in their Lord; they are those round whose necks will be collars (of servitude): They will be companions of the fire; in it shall they abide” (Qur’an, 13:5)
 
Another group of Ayats :-
 
“O ye people! Fear your Lord; verily the quake of the Hour (ofjudgement) is a thing terrible.
 
“The day ye shall see it, every suckling mother shall forget her sucking babe, and every pregnant female shall drop her load, and thou shalt see the people intoxicated, but they will not be drunk; but dreadful will be the wrath of Allah.
 
“And yet among men there is he who disputes about Allah, without knowledge, and follows every rebellious Satan
 
“Against him it is decreed that whosoever turns to him for friendship him will he lead astray and will guide him unto the torment of burning fire.
 
“O ye people! If you be in doubt about the Resurrection, then verily We created you from dust, then from sperm, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, formed and (sometimes) unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause to stay in the womb what We will until an appointed time, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that you may reach your maturity, and of you is he who is caused to die. and of you is he who is brought back to the feeblest (state of) old age so that he knows nothing after knowing (much). And you behold the earth dried (dead) but when We send down on it the water it is stirred to life and swells up and produces every kind of aftractive herbage (in pairs).

“This is because verily Allah, He is the Reality (Truth), and because verily He gives life unto the dead, and because verily He has power over all things.
 
“And that the Hour (of Resurrection) is coming, there is no doubt therein; and that Allah will raise up those in the graves.” (Qur’an, 22:1-7)
 
In these Ayats, Allah gives two examples to show that Resurrection is not a thing to be wondered at. He reminds mankind that creating a thing is, by human thinking, more difficult than reassembling it after all its parts have disintegrated. Therefore, the Creator, who created the man in the first place can more easily resurrect him after all his body has become dust. (The words “more easily” have been used according to human thinking; so far as the power of Allah is concerned, every thing is easy for Him in equal degree).
 
Another example is that of a parched earth, which is thought “dead”, coming to life again as soon as Allah sends some rain upon it.
 
So, there is nothing strange if Allah makes us alive again after our death and disintegration.
 
It should be mentioned here that these arguments are effective against the second group, i.e., those who believe that there is a Creator, and still do not believe in the Resurrection of the bodies.
 
So far as the first group is concerned (those who do not believe in a Creator) they, first of all, should talk about the existence of God; the belief of Qiyamat would come after that.

https://www.al-islam.org/day-of-judgement-sayyid-akhtar-rizvi/part-4-day-judgement#37-resurrection-body

Now onto my point of allegory in the Quran and in referencing heaven in regards to the quranic description of it:

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The Allegorical Verses of the Qur’an

After explaining the meaning and importance of 'ismah for the prophets and messengers of Allah which is also supported by the Qur'anic verses we quoted above, some people become confused when they come across verses which give an impression that Adam and other prophets committed some sins.

This confusion will only be clear if we realize that the Qur'anic verses, according to the Qur'an itself, are of two types:
He is the one who sent upon you the book: some of its verses are clear(muhkamât)—these are the basis of the Book, while others are allegorical (mutashâbihât).

“As for those in whose hearts is perversity, they follow the allegorical verses, seeking to mislead and seeking to give (their own) interpretation. None know their (i.e., allegorical verses') interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge…” (3:7)

Those who do not differentiate between the clear and the allegorical verses will surely get confused when they apparently find two conflicting messages from the verses of the Qur'an. The issue of 'ismah is one of those issues in which people have become victim of confusion.

* * * * *

The situation, at this stage of our discussion, is as follows:

Our earlier discussion concluded that the divine guides must be immaculate and above reproach.
Many verses of the Qur'an support this view, as mentioned above.

But there are some verses of the Qur'an that apparently attribute sins and wrongdoings to some prophets.

What should be done?

We must accept those verses that are supported by our reason as the clear(muhkamât) verses. And the other verses should be considered allegorical (mutashâbihât) and their true meaning must be sought in the light of the muhkamât, the teachings of the Prophet, and the Imams of Ahlul Bayt who are the twin of the Qur'an by virtue of the famous saying of the Prophet that “I am leaving two precious things among you [for guidance]: the Book of Allah and my Ahlu 'l-bayt.”1

In the next lesson, we will study those verses and see how can we interpret them and, at the same time, hold on to our belief in the infallibility of the prophets.

https://www.al-islam.org/ismat-infallibiity-of-prophets-in-the-quran-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/allegorical-verses-qur’
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Allegorical Interpretation {Ta’wil} in the Qur’an

Based on the classification of the verses of the Qur'an into the definitive {muhkam} and the metaphorical {mutashabih},1 and into the abrogating {nasikh} and the abrogated {mansukh}, in explaining some verses, one should not content himself with only their external purport because their external purport could be doubtful and misleading. Meanwhile, according to the traditions, the Qur'an has many cores and layers, the understanding which is not possible for everyone. As such, in understanding some verses, it is necessary to take other verses into account. For example, in interpreting verses such as:

﴿الرَّحْمَانُ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَى.﴾

The All-beneficent settled on the Throne,2

﴿وَجَاءَ رَبُّكَ وَالْمَلَكُ صَفًّا صَفًّا.﴾

And Your Lord and the angels arrive in ranks,3

one must seek the assistance of other verses for clarity and correct interpretation such as:

﴿لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ.﴾

Nothing is like Him,4

﴿وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ.﴾

Nor has He any equal,5

﴿وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا.﴾

And Allah has knowledge of all things.6

There are two approaches in dealing with these kinds of verses. One group is the literalists who content themselves with the literal meaning of the verses. The other group is the allegorists who take into account other verses in explaining and analyzing these kinds of verses, and they believe in allegorical interpretation {Ta'wil}. For instance, in interpreting the verse, (عَلى الْعَرْشِ استَوَى) settled on the Throne,”7 they have said that ”'arsh” is the Throne exclusive for God where He is settled, but the allegorists have given two probabilities for this verse:

(1) 'arsh is a thing having the three dimensions of width, height and depth; and
(2) 'arsh alludes to a fact and concept having no material characteristics.

It is worthy to note that 'Allamah Tabataba'i (r) accepts the first probability while the late Sha'rani (r) advocates the second probability. It must be emphasized that in interpreting these kinds of verses, those who content themselves with their literal meanings are committing an indescribable mistake and blunder. It is because if one believes in the literal interpretation of settled on the Throne,” he must then assume God to have a physical body, while God is not a body.

https://www.al-islam.org/new-analysis-wahhabi-doctrines-muhammad-husayn-ibrahimi/allegorical-interpretation-tawil-quran

As you can see there is no contridiction in what I stated. 

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1 minute ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Bro what? He never said that only our souls will be Resurrected. Also you keep claiming that this is in the Holy Quran, but you have yet to provide any reference. (i.e we will be 30 years old). Also correct me if I'm wrong, but 72 wives is not mentioned in Quran? I know Houris are, but not "72 wives" as far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Salam bro, I hope you're doing well. Maybe he didn't understand the implication of what he said, or maybe he typed in error. But what he said is indeed the platonic understanding of souls leaving the body into heaven.

This is what he said : 

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Are we physical beings with a metaphysical aspect to us? If you accept this, then it cannot be hard to comprehend the fact our immaterial aspect is the one thing that will trascend

He said that only our immaterial aspect will only transcend, and this is wrong. The resurrection is not immaterial it is physical. To suggest that only our immaterial souls go to heaven without the body is to suggest a platonic heretical/philosopher/Sufi version of the resurrection similar to what our scholars and imams [as] wrote against. This is neo-Platonism.

Regarding the number of the hour al ayn then it isn't in the Qur'an, nor did I say that this number was in the Qur'an bro. I said that hour al ayn is mentioned in the Qur'an and it isn't metaphorical.

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As you can see there is no contridiction in what I stated.

Actually it does, look at what you quoted...

Quote

 

Resurrection of the body is one of the cardinal beliefs of Islam; if anyone, knowing this fact, rejects it, he is not a Muslim at all. It will not be out of place to point out here that people are divided into four groups on this subject:-

    1. There are atheists, who do not admit the existence of the Creator, and as a result, do not admit that He would resurrect us after our death.

In my book, God: An Islamic Perspective, enough has been written to show the baselessnes of atheism. Some more remarks will be given in the course of other discussions.
 
    2. There are those who accept the existence of a Creator, but reject the idea of the resurrection of body. According to them, the reward and punishment mentioned in the Qur'an and Ahadith will be given to the soul only; the body will not be resurrected after death.

 
    3. Those, like the Muslims, who believe that the Qiyamat will be for the body and soul together.

 

 The very quote you quoted says to deny the bodily resurrection is kufr.

 

You also said this here :

Quote


Are we physical beings with a metaphysical aspect to us? If you accept this, then it cannot be hard to comprehend the fact our immaterial aspect is the one thing that will trascend

If the immaterial aspect of our body is the only thing that will transcend, then what about the body? What about its resurrection? 

I'm not making takfeer on anyone, but this is one of the reasons why the philosophers were debated against and made takfeer against. The two mains reasons were the eternal past of the universe and the non-bodily resurrection. Both points are their famous positions.

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8 minutes ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

Salam bro, I hope you're doing well. Maybe he didn't understand the implication of what he said, or maybe he typed in error. But what he said is indeed the platonic understanding of souls leaving the body into heaven.

This is what he said : 

He said that only our immaterial aspect will only transcend, and this is wrong. The resurrection is not immaterial it is physical. To suggest that only our immaterial souls go to heaven without the body is to suggest a platonic heretical/philosopher/Sufi version of the resurrection similar to what our scholars and imams [as] wrote against. This is neo-Platonism.

Regarding the number of the hour al ayn then it isn't in the Qur'an, nor did I say that this number was in the Qur'an bro. I said that hour al ayn is mentioned in the Qur'an and it isn't metaphorical.

Wa alaikom. Can you please reference as to where you got this from? As in that its wrong that only our souls will transcend. I myself am not clear on this subject and im trying to find out. But do you have any proof of this? Also maybe we will have new bodies.

You wrote this: 72 white grapes not 72 wives sufi version of heaven, then you can. The Qur'an is very clear.  And I apologize, maybe I mistook it. So I thought you meant that. My bad. And yes houris are mentioned in the Quran.

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27 minutes ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

Actually it does, look at what you quoted...

 The very quote you quoted says to deny the bodily resurrection is kufr.

 

You also said this here :

If the immaterial aspect of our body is the only thing that will transcend, then what about the body? What about its resurrection? 

I'm not making takfeer on anyone, but this is one of the reasons why the philosophers were debated against and made takfeer against. The two mains reasons were the eternal past of the universe and the non-bodily resurrection. Both points are their famous positions.

There is no contridiction, I will explain as clearly as I can. 

Firstly to avoid semantics, here is the definition of 'transcend':

Quote

Be or go beyond the range or limits of (a field of activity or conceptual sphere):this was an issue transcending party politics

Surpass (a person or achievement):he doubts that he will ever transcend Shakespeare http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/transcend

 

Now when resurrection occurs we our physical bodies are revived. However the day of judgement isn't revolved around your body but the actions of yourself. Your mind(the immaterial aspect of you) is/was responsible for your actions in the material world. Sure the body can lust and hate but you have intellect to act upon and restrain yourself from these things. Whence the my point in saying there is no contridiction in what I stated is a reference to the fact your soul(spirtual aspect) is the thing that transcends in the sense of being the source of reward or punishment.

This isn't my opinion, this is an islamic stance:

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The Soul Neither Enters the Body nor Gets Out of it

It must be understood that the relation between the soul and the body is not by way of Hulool (penetrative migration). It is not like the entrance of water in a utensil or of air in vacuum. It also cannot be said that it remains out of body or it goes out of it at the time of death because soul is essence, not matter. There is no question of its entering or vacating. The only thing is that its relation with body is such that it remains fully attentive to the body. Death disconnects this relation.

It is also obligatory for us to believe that death occurs by the command of God. The same Power, which had, established this relation in the womb, at the last moment of the worldly life, disconnects this relation between the body and soul. Only He is the bestower of life and death. The Holy Qur’an says,

“God gives life and only God causes death also. “(39:42)

Some common people are very angry with Izra'eel (The angel of death). They do not even like to hear his name. They even condemn him though they know that these angels do not do anything of their own wish or authority. They have been employed by the Lord of the Universe and hence do everything by His order or command.

How the soul is taken

How soul is retrieved from body has been narrated in the traditions about the Me'raj (ascension) of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.). In short, there is a board in front of Izra'eel, which contains names of all the people. The name of the person whose time for death arrives is removed from that board and Israel at once takes possession of his or her soul.

It is also possible that names of thousands of people may be wiped out at one moment whereupon Israel takes the souls of all of them instantly. This is not astonishing. It is just like a gust of breeze blowing off thousands of lamps in a split second. All of it is by the power of the Almighty. Doubtlessly it is Israel who snatches souls but, as a matter of fact, it is only God Who causes it because it is only His command and Will.

https://www.al-islam.org/the-hereafter-maad-ayatullah-dastaghaib-shirazi/death#soul-neither-enters-body-nor-gets-out-it

Can I ask do you concede on the point of allegory in the quran? 

By the way I do not mean any of this in a rude way, I am sorry if it comes across that way in my writing. I just strongly need to clarify my position and statement in regards to how you percieve them to be.

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Whatever the so-called Muslim feminists say - the fact is there will be Houris for the male believers in Jannah. 

And there will be literal Houris as the hadiths state and confirm the Holy Qur'an's stance (that it is literal).

Edited by The Batman
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12 hours ago, laylacat said:

Salam everyone! Hope you're all doing well inshallah. 

Okay so I've gotten into a discussion with I think a non Muslim about 72 virgins in Jannah in Islam. I do not deny that there are virgins and whatever in Jannah but I haven't found any Shia hadiths claiming this specific number and I don't think it's as literal as many people take it. Anyway she said she had some Shia hadiths to prove me wrong but they're in Arabic and I can't read Arabic. So I'm going to post them here and I'm hoping someone will be able to translate them for me so I can understand them and maybe discuss their authenticity. I have no idea what they say. 

الحور العين هو إسم يشير إلى إعتقاد إسلامي لكائنات في الجنة، ويكن نساء أعددن لأصحاب الجنة من الرجال ويفوق جمالهن الوصف. ثبت في السنَّة النبوية أن للشهيد اثنتين وسبعين من الحور العين. وأن أدنى أهل الجنة له زوجتان. ومنهم من له أكثر من ذلك. فعن المقدام بن معدي كرب قال: قال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم): " للشهيد عند الله ست خصال: يغفر له في أول دفعة من دمه، ويرى مقعده من الجنة، ويجار من عذاب القبر، ويأمن من الفزع الأكبر، ويوضع على رأسه تاج الوقار الياقوتة منها خير من الدنيا وما فيها، ويزوج اثنتين وسبعين زوجة من الحور العين، ويشفع في سبعين من أقاربه [1].

" وبالنسبة لنساء الدنيا في الجنة فإن الله عز وجل يكسوهن جمالا يتفوقن به على الحور العين[2].

 

 

Chances are the Christian you are talking with has a background in the Bible that says we will neither be married, nor given in marriage, we will have a new body and a new name. There are no biblical references to any sex in heaven, and chances are that a heavenly body could be unisexual.

The Bible describes "helpers", and from what I understand the Quran confirms these helpers and the only actual description given is translated as "large eyes".

From thus the fantasy began. 

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Let me insert a question --that l thought of a couple of hours ago:

Do you think there is something as mundane as sex in Jenna or there is something far more emotionally satisfying ---question assumes we are still 'burdened' with emotion in Jenna.

 

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1 minute ago, hasanhh said:

Let me insert a question --that l thought of a couple of hours ago:

Do you think there is something as mundane as sex in Jenna or there is something far more emotionally satisfying ---question assumes we are still 'burdened' with emotion in Jenna.

 

This is the point I'm trying to send across, that some people fail to fathom. Sex on this material world is in two categories. First as a need and a means of reproduction. Second as a means of pleasing your lustful desires(being a want). 

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4 hours ago, humanbeing101 said:

This is the point I'm trying to send across, that some people fail to fathom. Sex on this material world is in two categories. First as a need and a means of reproduction. Second as a means of pleasing your lustful desires(being a want). 

Tbh it makes sense. This kinda seems like Wahhabi mentality wanting Jannah only because of 72 virgins

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9 hours ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

Tbh it makes sense. This kinda seems like Wahhabi mentality wanting Jannah only because of 72 virgins

It seems you are interpreting the Holy Qur'an based on your whims. The hadiths which explain Jannah confirm that the Holy Qur'an is literally telling us there will be literal virgins in Jannah in the Afterlife.

This has been the belief of the Shi'a scholars since the classical era.

This is what Shaykh al-Mufid (rah) says:

Quote

The reward of the dwellers in Paradise is to enjoy the delights of eating, drinking, pleasant scenes and marriage, and every pleasure of the senses to which their natural inclination leads them with which they will achieve their desires. Hence, in Paradise there is no human being who enjoys pleasure without eating, drinking, or gratification of the senses. The claim of him who alleges that in Paradise there are some who find pleasure in exalting and glorifying Allah without enjoying food or drink is, in fact, foreign to the religion of Islam.

It is an imitation of the Christians who allege that those who obey God in their lifetime will be transformed into angels who neither drink, nor eat, nor are married.

https://www.al-islam.org/emendation-shiite-creed-shaykh-al-mufid/28-concerning-paradise-and-hell-al-jannah-wa-n-nar

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3 hours ago, The Batman said:

It seems you are interpreting the Holy Qur'an based on your whims. The hadiths which explain Jannah confirm that the Holy Qur'an is literally telling us there will be literal virgins in Jannah in the Afterlife.

This has been the belief of the Shi'a scholars since the classical era.

This is what Shaykh al-Mufid (rah) says:

Im not saying this is what it is, just saying that this is the same thinking of Wahhabis. Especially the 72 virgins part

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With respect there are also differing opinions. There are other scholars which I showed previously who disagree. The Quran also says:

“As for those in whose hearts is perversity, they follow the allegorical verses, seeking to mislead and seeking to give (their own) interpretation. None know their (i.e., allegorical verses') interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge…” (3:7)

Second, we should refer to what the Ahlul Bayt say:

Those who worship God for the hope of gaining , they’re not real worshippers ,they’re merchants. Those who worship God out of fear ( of punishment ) , they’re slaves. And those who worship God to be grateful towards their creator , they are the free people , and their worship is a real one. (Bihar al- Anwar, Vol. 78 , P. 117) Imam Hussain (AS)

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I'd be thinking 72 virgins is probably a good enough reason for some to strap on the C4. Especially if they can't get a date on earth. With enough encouragement they can start in their early teens now.

There's still some uncertanties about how these virgins are distributed. 72 seems to be the popular number, but what's with the hadith of Jesus standing in the pouring rain? Only one tent around and there's a woman in it. After some negotiating with Allah he lands 40 virgins to stay out in the rain.

 Doesn't sound at all like the Jesus in the NT, nor as mentioned in the Quran, but if hadith says... 

I'm guessing Jesus already had the 72 virgins worked out, add 40 and that's 112. Imagine all the other things he did that weren't recorded and how many virgins were negotiated over his life. Hopefully Jannah doesn't run out of virgins before we get there.

Even so, worst case scenario, you only get 72 virgins, what have you got after 72 days?

The idea of having everything in heaven you shouldn't have on earth really sparked some imaginations. It's also been used as a powerful tool.

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3 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I'd be thinking 72 virgins is probably a good enough reason for some to strap on the C4. Especially if they can't get a date on earth. With enough encouragement they can start in their early teens now.

There's still some uncertanties about how these virgins are distributed. 72 seems to be the popular number, but what's with the hadith of Jesus standing in the pouring rain? Only one tent around and there's a woman in it. After some negotiating with Allah he lands 40 virgins to stay out in the rain.

 Doesn't sound at all like the Jesus in the NT, nor as mentioned in the Quran, but if hadith says... 

I'm guessing Jesus already had the 72 virgins worked out, add 40 and that's 112. Imagine all the other things he did that weren't recorded and how many virgins were negotiated over his life. Hopefully Jannah doesn't run out of virgins before we get there.

Even so, worst case scenario, you only get 72 virgins, what have you got after 72 days?

The idea of having everything in heaven you shouldn't have on earth really sparked some imaginations. It's also been used as a powerful tool.

 

Thanks for the good laugh man.

 

Ive always considered heaven more of an immaterial thing (if it does exist), which is common amongst christians and christian scholars.

In regards to discussion in this topic, lets say we do have food.  If we eat food, is that to say we defecate as well in heaven?  Does that mean someone could step in it or smell it?

Or is food supposed to just magically disappear in our stomachs? 

Id assume if we ate it, it would have to go somewhere.

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1 hour ago, iCambrian said:

Thanks for the good laugh man.

 

Ive always considered heaven more of an immaterial thing (if it does exist), which is common amongst christians and christian scholars.

In regards to discussion in this topic, lets say we do have food.  If we eat food, is that to say we defecate as well in heaven?  Does that mean someone could step in it or smell it?

Or is food supposed to just magically disappear in our stomachs? 

Id assume if we ate it, it would have to go somewhere.

Uh yeah, haven't given that much thought. I have enough fun with my own septic sys. If Paul is the least in Heaven, that might be his department.

Glad you enjoyed it. Just sayin, but Christians are gonna be some ticked if the Muslims get all the virgins.

I believe there is a Heaven, I have no idea what it is. I'm sure God gets a chuckle out of all the theories. The Bible reads it as having some form of...form. Jesus took three days for the transformation, and could be seen or unseen, appear, and eat. He wasn't recognized until He opened up to people. When He ascended He was already in this new body. I sure wouldn't want to go through eternity with the body I have now. I'm old and broken and wouldn't consider that to be a good starting point. 

Very few have been reported as seen going to Heaven without first dying and leaving a body behind. Chances are as these bodies were lifted up they would have disintegrated long before reaching Heaven, thus the new body. New body, new name, no marriage, no given in marriage, no mention of male or female. 

The Bible and Quran agree that there are "helpers", The Quran describes them more than the Bible, but all words used in the Quran are gender neutral, kinda like the Bible. all points to the same thing.

Everything else is what somebody said. 

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