Foundation Of Islamic State [NISA 59]

[Fahad Sani]

On 8/21/2016 at 9:06 PM, skamran110 said:

1. Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.422

Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure (lizard), you would  follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

The above tradition in Sahih al-Bukhari confirms, the Prophet stated that the history of the Children of Israel will be repeated for Muslim

2.  There are many striking similarities in this regard written in Quran including the similarities of the leaders and the similarities of the people.

 وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا .

"Surely Allah aforetime took a covenant from the Children of Israel and We appointed twelve leaders among them" (Quran 5:12) 

3.  The Messenger of Allah said: "My Ahlul-Bait are like the Gate of Repentance of the Children of Israel; whoever entered therein was forgiven."

Sunni References:

- Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haithami, v9, p168.

- al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani, Tradition #18

- Arba'in, by al-Nabahani, p216

4. Now the Quran also mentions the identification of those leaders as quoted by Quran in the following verse:

. وَقَارُونَ وَفِرْعَوْنَ وَهَامَانَ ۖ وَلَقَدْ جَاءَهُم مُّوسَىٰ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَاسْتَكْبَرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَمَا كَانُوا سَابِقِينَ

And [We destroyed] Qarun and Pharaoh and Haman. And Moses had already come to them with clear evidences, and they were arrogant in the land, but they were not outrunners [of Our punishment].  (29:39) 

The Pharoah and his companions were  along-with their followers were drowned in the sea and destroyed by Allah swt.

12- The Quran mentions here the names of 3 top leaders from the Children of Israel that include: Qarun, Pharoah and Haman who led these people.

The Pharoah was the ruler, Haman was his adviser and the Qarun was rich. This serves as reminder for the people in the Nation of Muhammad saww.

 

 

1. Right. Bani Israil is like mirror for this last Ummah. But there are some major differences between the two as well.

One such is mentioned in the hadith below.

 Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship." http://sunnah.com/bukhari/60/122

Prophet s.a.w.w said after me there will be caliphs who will increase in number.

2. Who were their twelve leaders? And when and how they were appointed? Any narrations on this from Prophet s.a.w.w?

3. Narration is a fabrication. Does not fit with the teachings of Quran about repentance.

 

4. Analogy is not appropriate (I know where it is going). They all were arrogant and haughty people. Called as Aleen in Quran.

 

On 8/21/2016 at 9:10 PM, skamran110 said:

Disagreed theses hadith are obvious for following the Ahl labaayt and Imams from Ahl labayat.

These ahadith are not obvious when it comes to mansoos minallah or divine imamate/wilayah. Perhaps thats the main reason why Imam Ali a.s had never mentioned about such ahadith in any of his sermons and letters. Nahjul Balagha is empity of such ahadith.

 

22 hours ago, skamran110 said:

true i await the verse of quran single verse to justify the concept of people chosen caliph which is still missing from the posts mentioned by yourself.

 

Concpet of caliph/caliphate is very broad in terms of both Quran and ahadith. Following article may help.

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1401_1450/islamic_leadership_principles.htm

 

22 hours ago, skamran110 said:

The hadith of the prophet about 12 caliphs / amirts//leaders are mu[Edited Out]er  and present in both sunnis and shias. yes the sunnis and their ulemas are confused to accept or reject these hadiths but shia are confident to accept that these narrations provide the clear evidence that these mean 12 caliphs / leaders / imams chosen by Allah swt from the progeny of the prophet like 12 leaders were chosen in the children of isreal.

How 12 leader were chosen in Bani Israil? Its not about just the number twelve (12). There were 12 children of Israil (Yaqub a,s). For each tribe a leader was selected. ALl the twelve leaders were present at the same time. While the central and main leader was the Prophet of thier time. It has nothing to do with divine imamate. Its like for every tribe of Quresh there was a separate leader.

[Fahad Sani]

23 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

This is your misunderstanding, Its is not  Tribal/country constitution. There is no separation of Church/State here in Islam.

Authority- to you it,  means only Political Authority/Power ( so, what Post or Title is given to Religious Leader? Or in your theory, Political Leader trumps the Religious leader? )- what is this, a Political system or Religious system - Who is incharge of this Religion God or Man. You have been told to think in only Political/territory terms- like a secular government/leadership.  Because it was a Political Kingdom,( More later- if you review the basic material  provided above- you will know your understanding of this concept is wrong).

Khalifa Appointed By Allah(Awj) and announced by Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his progeny) was present(some accepted  it), like it is today(reflect on this).

Read letter 53 of nahjul balagha. What is meant by verse 4.59 and by leadership/authority according to Ali a.s. Its both political and religious.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-53-order-malik-al-ashtar

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235040934-foundation-of-islamic-state-nisa-59/?page=2#comment-2946518

 

22 hours ago, skamran110 said:

The quoted hadithn is self explanatory and provide the evidence that the imam is Zahir because he is  living imam. .

Imam Mahdi’s Resemblance with Hz Yusuf AS:

A.   Muhammad bin Hammam and Muhammad bin al-Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jumhoor narrated from al-Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jumhoor from his father from some of his companions from al-Mufadhdhal bin Umar that Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (s) had said:

A tradition that you perceive is better that ten that you narrate (without perceiving them). Every truth has a fact and every rightness has a light. By Allah we do not consider a Shiite as a jurisprudent until it is mistaken before him and he notices the mistake. Amirul Mo'mineen (s) has said from upon the minbar of Kufa: “There will be dark, blind and dim seditions awaiting you, from which no one will be saved except the (nooma).”

People asked: “What is the (nooma)?”He said: “It is one, who knows people but people do not know him.”

Then he added: “Know well that the world will not be empty of an authority (Hujjah) from Allah but Allah will make His people not see His authority because of their injustice, oppression and excessiveness in disobedience. If the world remains without an authority (from Allah) for an hour, it will sink with its people. The authority knows people but they do not know him. It is like Prophet Joseph (s), who knew people but they denied him. “Alas for (My) servants! There comes not to them a messenger but they mock at him.

( Biharul Anwar, vol.51, p.112, Ithbat al-Hudat, vol.3 p.532, Awalim al-Uloom, vol.3 p.526, Mo’jam Ahadeeth al-Imam al-Mahdi, vol.5 p.366),

B.  Imam Ali as mentioned the example of the prophet Joseph:

“Then he gives an example by mentioning Prophet Joseph (s). Imam al-Mahdi (s) is existent in substance and person but at his time he sees and he is not seen until-as Amirul Mo'mineen (s) says: “the promised time and determined appointment” when the call comes from the heaven: “This is the day that brings forth joy to the descendants of Ali and to the Shia of Ali.”

(Biharul Anwar, vol.51, p.112, Ithbat al-Hudat, vol.3 p.532, Awalim al-Uloom, vol.3 p.526, Mo’jam Ahadeeth al-Imam al-Mahdi, vol.5 p.366. )

C. Ali bin Ahmad narrated from Obaydillah bin Musa al-Alawi from Ahmad bin al-Husayn from Ahmad bin Hilal from Abdurrahman bin Abu Najran from Fudhala bin Ayyoob that Sadeer as-Sayrafi had said: I heard Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (s) saying:

“The master of this matter has a likeness to Prophet Joseph (s).”

I said: “As if you want to tell us about a disappearance or confusion!”

He said: “Why do this damned people, who are like the pigs, deny this matter (the disappearance of imam al-Mahdi)? The brothers of Prophet Joseph (s) were skilled, intelligent and sons of prophets. When they came to him, they talked and dealt with him and although they were his brothers they could not know him until he himself told them that he was their brother Joseph.

Then why do this umma deny that Allah may want to hide His authority from people for a certain time? Prophet Joseph (s) was the king of Egypt and there was between him and his father a distance of eighteen days-travel. If he wanted to inform his father of his place, he could do that. By Allah, Jacob (s) and his sons, after having heard the news of Joseph, traveled from their village to Egypt within nine days. So why do this umma deny that Allah may do for his authority (al-Mahdi) as He has done for Prophet Joseph(s)?

Perhaps the master of this matter (al-Qa'im), who has been wronged and whose right has been denied, goes and comes among people frequently, walks in their markets and sits on their mats but they do not know him until the will of Allah permits him to introduce himself to them as Allah has permitted Prophet Joseph (s) to introduce himself to his brothers by saying: (They said: Are you indeed Yousuf? He said: I am Yousuf).

The same was narrated by Muhammad bin Ya'qoob al-Kulayni from Ali bin Ibraheem bin Hashim from Muhammad bin al-Husayn from ibn Abu Najran from Fudhala bin Ayyoob from Sadeer as-Sayrafi from Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (s).

(Al-Kafi, vol.1 p.336, Kamal ad-Deen p.144, Ilal ash-Sharayi’ p.244, Dala’il al-Imama p.290,Taqreeb al-Ma’arif p.189, I’lam al-Wara p.405, al-Khara’ij wel Jara’ih, vol.1 p.934, Ithbat al-Hudat, vol.3 p.442.)

Brother are these not your comments for knowing about Imam Mahdi ie Imam of our time::

"Its very important to know that. I have seen narrations regarding his occultation, his coming, his actions, his lineage, his virtues etc but not able to find out exactly how he will leave this world and what will happen after him etc.

People know everything about Imams of previous time but unfortunately have little knowledge about Imam of their own time. I am trying to learn more about Imam Mahdi a.s, current Imam according to twelvers.

Brother, everyone has to recognize Imam of his time, not Imams of previous times. Therefore my concern is on current Imam. I will not be asked about previous Imams. If that belief of imamate is true and correct then I will be asked and called on qiyamah by the name of current Imam."

The above comments in the light of the quoted posts are  contradictory to each other, because when truth is denied contradictory statement stab are formed.

First, the narrations from Imam Jafar Sadiq a.s says "a living and zahir Imam". meaning one who can be seen and can be heard. The same chapter of Bihar ul Anwar contains many other similiar narrations.

While 12th Is not visible, he cant be seen or heard. Then how can he be identified and how can people will be benfited from him? So many questions arise.

Second, why 1st Imam (Imam Ali a.s) is telling shias of his time about the 12th Imam? what about other Imams? Instead of asking for 2nd Imam, people are worries about the last 12th Imam. Everyone has to identify Imam of his time only as per twelver imamate concept. It doesnt make sense why people of the time of 1st Imam trying to know more and more about 12th and the final Imam as per twelver imamate concept.

Third, I said: IF ONLY IF.

Brother, everyone has to recognize Imam of his time, not Imams of previous times. Therefore my concern is on current Imam. I will not be asked about previous Imams. If that belief of imamate is true and correct then I will be asked and called on qiyamah by the name of current Imam."

There are also several narrations from sahabah, including Imam Ali a.s which say there will also be a time when there will be no Imam/leader/caliph of muslims.

 

22 hours ago, skamran110 said:

As per the verse 4:59 we are referring the matter to the prophet saww. we have provided the evidence by hadith that 12 imams are Ulil Amr mentioned by name. 

However the hadith mentioning the names of 3 caliphs as Ulil Amr has not been posted so in the light of discussion we confidently reject the sunni claim of the people chosen caliphs  as Ulil Amr. The sunni claim is based on assumption of scholars without  any verse of quran to justify people chosen caliph and there is no hadith mentioning the 3 caliphs as Ulil Amr. 

Wasalam

Read letter 53 of nahjul balagha. What is meant by verse 4.59 and by leadership/authority according to Ali a.s. Its both political and religious.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-53-order-malik-al-ashtar

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235040934-foundation-of-islamic-state-nisa-59/?page=2#comment-2946518

Edited August 22, 2016 by Fahad Sani

[Muslim2010]

1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

Read letter 53 of nahjul balagha. What is meant by verse 4.59 and by leadership/authority according to Ali a.s. Its both political and religious.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-53-order-malik-al-ashtar

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235040934-foundation-of-islamic-state-nisa-59/?page=2#comment-2946518

Thanks for your response from Nehjul balagaha with letter no. 53.

However this does not provide any evidence or justification for the selection of any caliph / leader / imam chosen by the people  after the prophet Muhammad saww in any manner.as his successor.

There is no statement or hadith that i have asked mentioning the 3 caliphs by name that they are Ulil Amr for the believers.

Can People Choose the Prophet or Caliph or Successor of the prophet with  Shura or Consultation, instead of authority / command by Allah?

The following questions serve as a food for thought for mindful people.

1- Hz Adam as was chosen by Allah swt as caliph / successor on the earth.  Did Allah swt make any consultation  for his selection ?

2- Allah swt Chosen Ibrahim as as Imam / leader of the people, Did Allah swt consult any prophet or any person for his selection ?

3-  Hz Adam, Nuh,  Ibrahim and the progeny of Imran were chosen above the worlds. Did Allah swt make any consultation with any prophet or person for this selection?

4- The prophet Nuh and Ibrahim were  sent to his nation. Did the people choose them as prophet by Shura or consultation?

5- Allah swt gave the progeny of ibrahim, the book and the wisdom. Did Allah swt make any consultation or Shura with any one for this award to his progeny?

6- Allah swt chosed Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot—each graced over all the nations. Did Allah swt make any consultation for this grace?

7-Allah swt made Isac and yaqub leaders / imams, whom Allah consulted for this selection of leaders / imams?

8- Allah swt made Dawood  a caliph ie his successor as his chosen representative on the earth. Did Allah swt conduct any consultation for this selection?

9- Allah swt made Haroon as and aider and adviser of hz Musa as. Did Allah swt make any consultation with the Children of israel for such selection? Or Musa made any shura for his selection?

10- Musa asked his adviser and aider made by Allah swt ie Harun to take his place as his caliph / successor  in his absence, when he left for Mountain Tur. Did he make any shura for Haroon selection? However the people themselves chose and took a calf in Musa's absence then they were condemned by Allah swt for this worst action.

11- Allah swt made 12 leaders among the children of israel. Did Allah swt make any consultation for the selection of them?

12- Allah swt chosen Talut a leader over the children of Israel because of his knowledge and physical strength. Did Allah swt  make consultation for his selection?

13- Allah swt sent the prophet Muhammad saww as mercy to the mankind. Did he make any consultation for his selection?

14- Allah swt made the prophet Muhammad saww as his messenger and the last of the prophets. Did Allah make any consultation for this selection?

15- And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68.

This verse in the light of above verses clearly indicates that the selection of representative (prophet / leader / imam/ successor) is the authority of Allah alone. and no one has any right for it. It does not involve any  consultation for  their selection.

16- The way of Allah does  not change:

[This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change. (33:62)

17- The people do not have any right for selection of prophet or his representative then certainly they cannot choose any one after the prophet as his caliph ./ successor at their own (by any consultation) without permission by Allah.

Thus what happened after the prophet Muhammad saww for the selection of the Calif Abubakr is considered an innovation or bidda in the religion in violation to the established principles of the quran.

Wasalam

Edited August 22, 2016 by skamran110

[ShiaMan14]

On 8/19/2016 at 8:51 AM, Fahad Sani said:

(3) After the first and the second allegiance, and subordinate to these, the Muslims owe allegiance to those invested with authority from among themselves. The Arabic word ulil-amr is very comprehensive, which comprises all those persons who are in any way at the helm of the affairs of the Muslims-religious scholars, thinkers, political leaders, administrators, judges of law courts, tribal chiefs and the like. In short, all those, who are in any way invested with authority from among the Muslims, are to be obeyed, and it is not right to disturb the peace of the community life of the Muslims by entering into conflict with them, provided that (a) they are from among the Muslims, and (b) they are obedient to Allah and His Messenger. These two conditions are a pre-requisite for obedience to them, and these have been explicitly laid down in the verse and have also been fully explained by the Holy Prophet. In support of this some Traditions are cited below:

 

On 8/21/2016 at 7:43 AM, Fahad Sani said:

.....

Its not obligatory brother. Obedience to ulil amr is conditional. Ulil amr can be best and can be worst as well.

......

Absolute and unconditional obedience is only for Allah and for His Prophet s.a.w.w.

......

Obedience to ulil amr is conditional.

......

Brother @Fahad Sani:

First you made it seem like it was obligatory to obey the ulil amr; then you said it is conditional (obey good ones and disobey the bad ones...). You also did not set a hard and fast rule that ulil amr has to be an elected/selected official but could be anyone including scholars and thinkers. I am sure you will agree 100% that the Shia Imams were some of the greatest scholars and thinkers of their times so by your definition they TOO should be considered ulil amr. Now, during their lifetime, the ruling caliphs were not always good so it would be appropriate to disobey then. Logically speaking, all Imams SHOULD BE considered ulil amr but not all caliphs can be considered ulil amr. Are we in agreement on this?

Secondly, according to you ulil amr can be good or bad and we shold obey the good ones and disobey the bad ones. Are you acknowledging that "amr" i.e. authority can come from other than Allah because surely Allah will not make/select/elect a bad ulil amr. So if this authority is not coming from Allah and not coming from the Prophet, then religiously it is not a requirement for us to follow that authority at all because it did not come from Allah nor from the Prophet. So does Allah choose 'bad' ulil amrs as well as 'good' ones?

Lastly, the attached table shows how the reigns of Caliphs corresponds with the imamate of our imams. If you had to pick one side (far left or far right), what side would you pick if your salvation depended on it?

 

[Fahad Sani]

10 hours ago, skamran110 said:

Thanks for your response from Nehjul balagaha with letter no. 53.

However this does not provide any evidence or justification for the selection of any caliph / leader / imam chosen by the people  after the prophet Muhammad saww in any manner.as his successor.

There is no statement or hadith that i have asked mentioning the 3 caliphs by name that they are Ulil Amr for the believers.

Can People Choose the Prophet or Caliph or Successor of the prophet with  Shura or Consultation, instead of authority / command by Allah?

The following questions serve as a food for thought for mindful people.

1- Hz Adam as was chosen by Allah swt as caliph / successor on the earth.  Did Allah swt make any consultation  for his selection ?

2- Allah swt Chosen Ibrahim as as Imam / leader of the people, Did Allah swt consult any prophet or any person for his selection ?

3-  Hz Adam, Nuh,  Ibrahim and the progeny of Imran were chosen above the worlds. Did Allah swt make any consultation with any prophet or person for this selection?

4- The prophet Nuh and Ibrahim were  sent to his nation. Did the people choose them as prophet by Shura or consultation?

5- Allah swt gave the progeny of ibrahim, the book and the wisdom. Did Allah swt make any consultation or Shura with any one for this award to his progeny?

6- Allah swt chosed Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot—each graced over all the nations. Did Allah swt make any consultation for this grace?

7-Allah swt made Isac and yaqub leaders / imams, whom Allah consulted for this selection of leaders / imams?

8- Allah swt made Dawood  a caliph ie his successor as his chosen representative on the earth. Did Allah swt conduct any consultation for this selection?

9- Allah swt made Haroon as and aider and adviser of hz Musa as. Did Allah swt make any consultation with the Children of israel for such selection? Or Musa made any shura for his selection?

10- Musa asked his adviser and aider made by Allah swt ie Harun to take his place as his caliph / successor  in his absence, when he left for Mountain Tur. Did he make any shura for Haroon selection? However the people themselves chose and took a calf in Musa's absence then they were condemned by Allah swt for this worst action.

11- Allah swt made 12 leaders among the children of israel. Did Allah swt make any consultation for the selection of them?

12- Allah swt chosen Talut a leader over the children of Israel because of his knowledge and physical strength. Did Allah swt  make consultation for his selection?

13- Allah swt sent the prophet Muhammad saww as mercy to the mankind. Did he make any consultation for his selection?

14- Allah swt made the prophet Muhammad saww as his messenger and the last of the prophets. Did Allah make any consultation for this selection?

15- And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68.

This verse in the light of above verses clearly indicates that the selection of representative (prophet / leader / imam/ successor) is the authority of Allah alone. and no one has any right for it. It does not involve any  consultation for  their selection.

16- The way of Allah does  not change:

[This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change. (33:62)

17- The people do not have any right for selection of prophet or his representative then certainly they cannot choose any one after the prophet as his caliph ./ successor at their own (by any consultation) without permission by Allah.

Thus what happened after the prophet Muhammad saww for the selection of the Calif Abubakr is considered an innovation or bidda in the religion in violation to the established principles of the quran.

Wasalam

Its not about prophethood, its about caliphate. Yes people can choose the caliph for themselves. So they chose abu bakr r.a as their first caliph after Prophet s.a.w.w. Imam Ali a.s also gave bayah to him. And confessed the same in letter 6 of nahjul balagha that the consultation is the right of muhajirun and ansar. Those muhajirun and ansar who were highly prasied in both Quran and authentic ahadith. Same muhajrun and ansar selected Imam Ali a.s as their fourth caliph.

As I said earlier Quran gives general principles while ahadith explain and elaborate. Let alone consider Book of government of Sahih Muslim.

Following are few verses from Quran which are the foundation or basis for an Islamic State. Same verses were used by Khomeini for his concept of wilayat e faqih and became successful.

Indeed, Allah commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which Allah instructs you. Indeed, Allah is ever Hearing and Seeing. [4:58]

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. [4:59]

And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend. [42:38]

If what happened after the prophet Muhammad saww for the selection of the Calif Abubakr is an innovation or bidda in the religion in violation to the established principles of the quran. Then it means all those who supported him were also innovators. And why no one came to stop this. No sword was raised.

Here is one more general principle.

O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. [5:54]

When false prophets emerged after Prophet s.a.w.w, the real people of innovation. Abu bakr r.a was the one who sent his army to fight against them. Rules and laws of Islam are practical not fantacies.  

[Fahad Sani]

8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

 

Brother @Fahad Sani:

First you made it seem like it was obligatory to obey the ulil amr; then you said it is conditional (obey good ones and disobey the bad ones...). You also did not set a hard and fast rule that ulil amr has to be an elected/selected official but could be anyone including scholars and thinkers. I am sure you will agree 100% that the Shia Imams were some of the greatest scholars and thinkers of their times so by your definition they TOO should be considered ulil amr. Now, during their lifetime, the ruling caliphs were not always good so it would be appropriate to disobey then. Logically speaking, all Imams SHOULD BE considered ulil amr but not all caliphs can be considered ulil amr. Are we in agreement on this?

Secondly, according to you ulil amr can be good or bad and we shold obey the good ones and disobey the bad ones. Are you acknowledging that "amr" i.e. authority can come from other than Allah because surely Allah will not make/select/elect a bad ulil amr. So if this authority is not coming from Allah and not coming from the Prophet, then religiously it is not a requirement for us to follow that authority at all because it did not come from Allah nor from the Prophet. So does Allah choose 'bad' ulil amrs as well as 'good' ones?

Lastly, the attached table shows how the reigns of Caliphs corresponds with the imamate of our imams. If you had to pick one side (far left or far right), what side would you pick if your salvation depended on it?

 

First point.

It may not seem like that.

Its conditional obedience. Below are some points from OP. All points are from ahadith.

(a) "It is obligatory on a Muslim to listen to and obey orders of those invested with authority, whether he likes it or dislikes it, provided that it is not sinful. However, if he is ordered to do a sinful thing, he should neither listen to the rulers nor obey their orders." (Bukhari, Muslim).

(b) "Obedience to anyone in a sinful thing is forbidden. Obedience is obligatory only in what is right." (Bukhari, Muslim).

(c) The Holy Prophet said, "There will be rulers over you who will practice right things as well as wrong things: (In such a case) whoever protests against the wrong things, shall be absolved from the responsibility and whoever dislikes the wrong things, also shall escape (punishment). But whoever approves of and follows them, shall incur punishment." The Companions asked, "Should we not then fight against such rulers?" The Holy Prophet answered, "No, as long as they offer the Salat." (Muslim)

Yes. I do agree that Imams from Ahlebayt were the best of their time. But brother its also a fact that except the first two Imams no one else got real authority/power in any manner over the affairs of people. On the other hand they were tortured by the rulers/ulil amr of their time. Thus they also practiced taqqiyah as per shia traditions.
There are plenty of authentic ahadith from Prophet s.a.w.w on this matter. And same was the understanding of Imam ALi a.s about concept of ulil amr as mentioned in letter 53. So I dont agree with first point fully. They didnt become caliphs/amir in reality. Same was the case with Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafai and Ahmed bin Hanbal. No one from them got authority over affairs of people in any way.

Second point

Its not according to me, its as per authentic ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w that there will be good and bad rulers/caliphs/ulil amr etc over this ummah. Authority is from Allah and its was given to Quresh. Now anyone can become caliph/ruler from quresh. Banu Ummayah, Banu Abbas, Alawites all were from Quresh.

 

Last point

In both cases obedience is conditional. And in case of dispute and disagreement with any ulil amr or caliph or scholar we have to refer only Quran and Sunnah of Prophet s.a.w.w. Its the general rule which is mentioned in Nisa 59. Also there are ahadith from Prophet which say rightly guided caliphate will be only for 30 years, after that there will come cruel rulers. From Muawiya onwards except a few like Umar bin Abdul Aziz all were cruel rulers.

Furthermore there are ahadith which say, this ummah will follow the footsteps of previous ummah (Bani Israel).

Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure (lizard), you would  follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/96/50

Lets apply this fact in terms of caliphate/rulership.

(1) Kingdom of Israiltes was divided during the time of fourth caliph/king. Exactly same thing happened with this ummah. I.e during the fourth caliph (Imam Ali a.s) division occur regarding caliphate and civil wars were initiated by opponents.

(2) Some of their kings/rulers were good and others were bad. Likewise this ummah also had good and bad rulers.

(3) This also shows the number of caliphs/leaders for Bani Israel were not limited to number 12. Same was the case with this ummah. There were so many caliphs from Banu Ummayah, Banu Abbas.

(4) All such kings/rulers were either appointed by people or through inheritance rule which was adopted by Banu Ummayah and Abbas.

Brother, I consider all authentic ahadith from Prophet s.a.w.w concerning the matter of caliphate/leadership/imamah. Here are some more ahadith on this. http://sunnah.com/muslim/33

Like this one.

It has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah who said:

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: After me there will be favouritism and many things that you will not like. They (his Companions) said: Messenger of Allah, what do you order that one should do if anyone from us has to live through such a time? He said: You should discharge your own responsibility (by obeying your Amir), and ask God for your right (by guiding the Amir to the right path or by replacing him by one more just and God-fearing).

Edited August 23, 2016 by Fahad Sani

[elite]

 أُولِي الْأَمْرِConsists of the two words “uli” + “Amr” means 'The Possessors of Amr”

What is mean by “ Amr” ? when read the letter 62 “ of Imam Ali(as) in Nahjul Balagah to the people of Egypt sent through Malik al-Ashtar when he was made  governer of Egypt.

أَمَّا بَعْدُ، فَإِنَّ اللهَ سُبْحَانَهُ بَعَثَ مُحَمَّداً(صلى الله عليه وآله) نَذِيراً لِلْعَالَمِينَ، وَمُهَيْمِناً عَلَى الْمُرْسَلِينَ. فلمَّا مَضى(صلى الله عليه وآله) تنَازَعَ الْمُسْلِمُونَ الاْمْرَ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ، فَوَاللهِ مَا كَانَ يُلْقَى فِي رُوعِي، وَلاَ يَخْطُرُ بِبَالِي، أَنَّ الْعَرَبَ تُزْعِجُ هذَا الاْمْرَ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) عَنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ، وَلاَ أَنَّهُمْ مُنَحُّوهُ               عَنِّي مِنْ بَعْدِهِ! فَمَا رَاعَنِي إِلاَّ انْثِيَالُ النَّاسِ عَلَى  فُلاَن يُبَايِعُونَهُ                                                                                   

Now, Allah the Glorified, deputed Muhammad (may Allah bless him and his descendants) as a warner for all the worlds and a witness for all the prophets. When the Prophet expired, the Muslims disputed about the “Amr” after him. By Allah, it never occurred to me, and I never imagined, that after the Prophet the Arabs would snatch away this “Amr” from his Ahlul Bayt (the members of his house), nor that they would take it away from me after him, but I suddenly noticed people surrounding the man to swear him allegiance   

Here “Amr” means Successorship of the Prophet(saw).

“Ulil Amr” are successors of the  prophet(saw).

Imam Ali(as) was saying in the above letter  that “Ulil Amr” are from the Ahlul Bayt of the Prophet(saw).

We read in the Sahih Muslim in the  “Book of Government”

‏"‏ إِنَّ هَذَا الأَمْرَ لاَ يَنْقَضِي حَتَّى يَمْضِيَ فِيهِمُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً  ‏        

Indeed this “Amr” will not end until there have been passed twelve successors from them

Have you seen how word the  “Amr” is used with  the successorship?

For Malik al-Ashtar Imam Ali(as) used the word “وَلاَّهُ مِصْرَ “ Ruler of the Egypt” in the letter 53 of Nahjul Balagah

هذَا مَا أَمَرَ بِهِ عَبْدُ اللهِ عَلِيٌ أَميِرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، مَالِكَ بْنَ الْحَارِثِ الاْشْتَرَ فِي عَهْدِهِ إِلَيْهِ، حِينَ وَلاَّهُ مِصْرَ                                                                                      This is what Allah's servant `Ali, Amir al-mu'minin, has ordered Malik ibn al-Harith al-Ashtar in his instrument (of appointment) for him when he made him Governor of Egypt

Imam Ali(as) for Himself used the word “وَالِي الاْمْرِ “  means  who make someone  responsible for the  “Amr” of particular area

 فَإِنَّكَ فَوْقَهُمْ، وَ وَالِي الاْمْرِ عَلَيْكَ فَوْقَكَ، وَاللهُ فَوْقَ مَنْ وَلاَّكَ            

You are over them and  “who mad you  responsible for the amr(of Egypt)” is  above you and Allah is above “who made you( responsible for the amr of Egypt).

See  word “Hathal Amr” means "This Amr" in the letter 62 of Imam Ali(as) and in the Hadith of Sahih Muslim used for Successorship of the Prophet(saw)

Now the hierarchical structure of  Isalmic State after the Prophet(saw) is like following which is clear when we read letter 53 of the Nahjul Balagah.

Keep in mind that obedience  to  “possessor of Amr” is obedience to Messenger of Allah(saw) and Obedience to Messenger of Allah(saw) is  obedience to Allah

                                                        Allah

                                                         I

           “Possessor of Amr” ( who is successor of the Prophet(saw))

                                                         I

                                                        Governer

(Who is made responsible  for  the amr of the particular area by possessor of amr)

                                                         I

                              Advisers, Military, Judges, Officials etc

 

 

Edited August 23, 2016 by elite

[Muslim2010]

7 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

As I said earlier Quran gives general principles while ahadith explain and elaborate. Let alone consider Book of government of Sahih Muslim.

Following are few verses from Quran which are the foundation or basis for an Islamic State. Same verses were used by Khomeini for his concept of wilayat e faqih and became successful.

1. The Duran does mention the specific examples to explain the appointment of prophets/ imam/ caliphs/ leaders by Allah swt. the quran does clearly mention those names. so the statement about the general verses alone is rejected . in the last post 14 examples have been quoted.

The flowing  questions have been raised for the discussion conducted so far:

1. How many prophets have been chosen by the people instead of Allah swt? Please quote their names from quran.

2. The caliphate comes after the prophet hood as per your concept. How many caliphs / leaders / imama/ have been chosen the people instead of Allah swt for the guidance of the people? Please mention their names from quran.

3. Dis the people  choose the Muhamamd saww as prophet? If the petiole has not chosen him as prophet then they did  not have any right of this selection of his successor/ caliph / leader after the prophet. 

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68.

4. The Ulil Amr has same authority as the prophet is followed unconditionally . This is proven by the use of one Atiu both for the prophet and the ulil Amr. I have already referred to  hadith mentioning 12 imams as Ulil Amr.. 

Where is the hadith with the names of 3 caliphs as Ulil Amr which has not been provided, and in the absence of it we again reject completely the sunni claim of ulil Amr.

Wasalam

 

 

[ShiaMan14]

11 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

First point.

It may not seem like that.

Its conditional obedience. Below are some points from OP. All points are from ahadith.

(a) "It is obligatory on a Muslim to listen to and obey orders of those invested with authority, whether he likes it or dislikes it, provided that it is not sinful. However, if he is ordered to do a sinful thing, he should neither listen to the rulers nor obey their orders." (Bukhari, Muslim).

(b) "Obedience to anyone in a sinful thing is forbidden. Obedience is obligatory only in what is right." (Bukhari, Muslim).

(c) The Holy Prophet said, "There will be rulers over you who will practice right things as well as wrong things: (In such a case) whoever protests against the wrong things, shall be absolved from the responsibility and whoever dislikes the wrong things, also shall escape (punishment). But whoever approves of and follows them, shall incur punishment." The Companions asked, "Should we not then fight against such rulers?" The Holy Prophet answered, "No, as long as they offer the Salat." (Muslim)

Yes. I do agree that Imams from Ahlebayt were the best of their time. But brother its also a fact that except the first two Imams no one else got real authority/power in any manner over the affairs of people. On the other hand they were tortured by the rulers/ulil amr of their time. Thus they also practiced taqqiyah as per shia traditions.
There are plenty of authentic ahadith from Prophet s.a.w.w on this matter. And same was the understanding of Imam ALi a.s about concept of ulil amr as mentioned in letter 53. So I dont agree with first point fully. They didnt become caliphs/amir in reality. Same was the case with Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafai and Ahmed bin Hanbal. No one from them got authority over affairs of people in any way.

You specifically said, " The Arabic word ulil-amr is very comprehensive, which comprises all those persons who are in any way at the helm of the affairs of the Muslims-religious scholars, thinkers, political leaders, administrators, judges of law courts, tribal chiefs and the like. In short, all those, who are in any way invested with authority from among the Muslims, are to be obeyed, "

Are you changing your stand now and saying only the ruler is ulil-amr? You are sufficiently confused about who ulil-amr is so I am not sure you should he writing articles or trying to guide us on it until you are sure of who ulil-amr is.

11 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Second point

Its not according to me, its as per authentic ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w that there will be good and bad rulers/caliphs/ulil amr etc over this ummah. Authority is from Allah and its was given to Quresh. Now anyone can become caliph/ruler from quresh. Banu Ummayah, Banu Abbas, Alawites all were from Quresh.

So Allah made Muawiya the caliph over Muslims? Allah made Yazid caliphs over the Muslims. Essentially Allah caused Hussain's sacrifice in Karbala...

12 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Last point

Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure (lizard), you would  follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

My point exactly. The Prophet said the above in the negative and rebuking tone that the general muslims will do exactly what the Jews and Christians did. This was the opportunity to get away from their missteps and misguidance and follow someone whose authority came from Allah.

[S.M.H.A.]

13 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا {59}

[Pickthal 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:59]

"Obey Allah and obey the messenger and the ulil amr (those vested with authority through His messenger)."

The command to obey is infinite-total obedience in all material, religious and spiritual matters, therefore, as this verse clearly signifies, the ulil amr must also be as just, wise and merciful as Allah and the Holy Prophet are, and he who - administers the affairs of mankind should be the khalifatullah (vicegerent of Allah) and the waliallah (representative of Allah whom He chooses after equipping him with His wisdom). Please refer to the commentary of al-Baqarah: 30 to 39 and 124; and al-Ma-idah: 55 and 56 and 3 and 67 with reference to the event at Ghadir Khum; and al-Rad: 43; and al-Hud: 17. A careful study of the above references discloses that Ali, and after him, the remaining eleven Imams, in the progeny of the Holy Prophet, Ali and Fatimah, are the true successors of the Holy Prophet who have been referred to as ulil amr in this verse. So the Shias obey and follow the Holy Prophet and the twelve Imams.

It is irrational and senseless to accept any ruler as ulil amr, otherwise men like Yazid bin Mu-awiya will have to be included in the category of ulil amr; and no sane person would say that Allah has enjoined to obey men like Yazid (prototypes of whom were and are many and in abundance since the departure of the Holy Prophet till today) just as one obeys Allah and the Holy Prophet.

From the event of ashira (feast of the near relatives to carry out the divine command of "warn your tribe of near relatives") to the day at Ghadir Khum, the Holy Prophet repeatedly announced the successorship of Ali, therefore, the first step a true Muslim must take to obey the messenger of Allah is to obey and follow Ali ibn abi Talib. Also refer to the "Right Path" and "Peshawar Nights", published by the Peermohammed Ebrahim Trust or Zahra Publications, because the issue of ulil amr and wali has been discussed in depth in these books with authentic references from the well-known books of tafsir (exegesis) and hadith (traditions) written by the Muslim scholars.

Today the Muslim ummah (from Indonesia to Morocco) is in a quandary, because the theoreticians who directly or indirectly served the interests of the despotic rulers, have presented "the obedience to ruler" (even if he is an usurper, a rogue or a ruffian) as a fundamental of religion (known as the theory of ghlu and ghalba-violence and conquest) by misinterpreting this verse. Such theoreticians are their Imams. There is no way leading to emancipation from terror and exploitation if this theory is not rightly rejected once and for all. It is not possible unless the sincere Muslims submit to the teachings of the Ahl ul Bayt.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

Also read detailed commentary http://www.almizan.org/

*****

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