Foundation Of Islamic State [NISA 59]

[Fahad Sani]

Assalam O Alaikum Wa Rehmatullah Wa Barakatuhu,

This verse is the basis of the whole religious, cultural and political system of Islam and is the first and foremost article of the constitution of an Islamic State.

 يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O believers! Obey Allah, obey the Rasool and those charged with authority among you. Should you have a dispute in anything, refer it to Allah and His Rasool, if you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day. This course of action will be better and more suitable. [4:59]

 

It lays down permanently the following fundamental principles:

(1) In the Islamic system, Allah is the real Authority who must be obeyed. A Muslim is first of all the servant of Allah; all his other capacities come after this. Therefore, a Muslim as an individual and the Muslims as a community owe their first loyalty to Allah and they must subordinate all other loyalties to this. Allegiance and obedience to anyone else shall be acknowledged only if these are not opposed to the allegiance and obedience to Allah but are subordinate to it. All other allegiances that are opposed to this basic allegiance shall be broken asunder. The Holy Prophet has explained the same thing in a Tradition: "There is no obedience to any of His creatures in what involves disobedience to the Creator."

(2) The second fundamental principle of the Islamic system is allegiance and obedience to the Holy Prophet. This obedience is not inherent in Prophethood but is only practical shape of obedience to Allah. A Messenger is to be obeyed because he is the authentic means through which we can receive Commandments and instructions from Allah. Hence, we can obey Allah only by obeying His Messenger, for no other way of obedience is genuine. As a corollary of this, the breach of allegiance to the Messenger shall be a rebellion against the Sovereign, Whom he represents. A Tradition explains the same thing thus: "Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah." The same thing has also been explicitly stated in v. 80 of this Surah.

(3) After the first and the second allegiance, and subordinate to these, the Muslims owe allegiance to those invested with authority from among themselves. The Arabic word ulil-amr is very comprehensive, which comprises all those persons who are in any way at the helm of the affairs of the Muslims-religious scholars, thinkers, political leaders, administrators, judges of law courts, tribal chiefs and the like. In short, all those, who are in any way invested with authority from among the Muslims, are to be obeyed, and it is not right to disturb the peace of the community life of the Muslims by entering into conflict with them, provided that (a) they are from among the Muslims, and (b) they are obedient to Allah and His Messenger. These two conditions are a pre-requisite for obedience to them, and these have been explicitly laid down in the verse and have also been fully explained by the Holy Prophet. In support of this some Traditions are cited below:

(a) "It is obligatory on a Muslim to listen to and obey orders of those invested with authority, whether he likes it or dislikes it, provided that it is not sinful. However, if he is ordered to do a sinful thing, he should neither listen to the rulers nor obey their orders." (Bukhari, Muslim).

(b) "Obedience to anyone in a sinful thing is forbidden. Obedience is obligatory only in what is right." (Bukhari, Muslim).

(c) The Holy Prophet said, "There will be rulers over you who will practice right things as well as wrong things: (In such a case) whoever protests against the wrong things, shall be absolved from the responsibility and whoever dislikes the wrong things, also shall escape (punishment). But whoever approves of and follows them, shall incur punishment." The Companions asked, "Should we not then fight against such rulers?" The Holy Prophet answered, "No, as long as they offer the Salat." (Muslim)

That is, if they discard the Salat, it will be a clear proof of their disobedience to Allah and His Messenger. Then it will be right to rise against them

(d) The Holy Prophet said, "Your worst rulers are those whom you hate and who hate you, whom you curse and who curse you." The Companions asked, "O Messenger of God, should we not rise against such rulers?" The Holy Prophet answered, "No, as long as they establish the Salat among you." (Muslim)

In this Tradition, the condition about the Salat laid down in the preceding one, has been made more explicit. One might have inferred from (c) that if they offered the Salat in their individual capacities, no rising should be organized against them. But Tradition (d) explicitly lays down that the condition for obedience to those in authority is the establishment of the system of Salat by them in the Muslim Community. The rulers should not only themselves offer the Salat regularly, but they should also establish the Salat in the system of government run by them. This is the minimum condition that ' makes a government Islamic in principle. If a government lacks this, it will mean that such a government has discarded Islam, and the Muslims will be justified in overthrowing it. This same thing has also been stated in another Tradition thus: "The Holy Prophet took a covenant from us regarding certain things. One of these was that we would not engage in a dispute with those invested with authority unless we saw in them clear signs of disbelief, which may provide us with a cogent reason to present before Allah." (Bukhari, Muslim)

(4) The fourth thing that has been laid down as an absolute and permanent principle is that the Commandments of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger are the fundamentals of law and final authority in the Islamic system. Hence, if a dispute arises about any matter between the Muslims or between the rulers and the ruled, they should turn to the Qur'an and the Sunnah for a decision and they should all submit to the decision. Thus, the essential element in the Islamic system that distinguishes it from un-Islamic systems is to acknowledge the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger as the final authority and to turn to these and to submit to their decisions in all problems of life. Any system void of this is most surely an un lslamic system.

Some people doubt the soundness of this principle. They say that it fails in practical life for the simple reason that there are many aspects of life (e.g., Local Self department. Railway department, Postal department, etc. etc.,) for which there are no rules and regulations at all in the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger. How then can they find the solution of the problems they meet with in such aspects of life as concern such departments? This doubt arises because they do not, understand the fundamental principles of Islam. Islam allows freedom of action in all those things about which the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger are silent. What distinguishes a Muslim from a non-Muslim is that the latter claims absolute freedom but the former considers himself to be the servant of Allah and uses only that amount of freedom which Islam allows him. The non-Muslim judges all matters in accordance with the rules and regulations made by himself and does not believe that he stands in need of Divine Guidance. In contrast to him, the Muslim, first of all, turns to Allah and His Messenger for guidance about everything and abides by their decision. But if he does not find any commandment therein about a certain thing, only then he is free to act in a manner he considers to be right. The very fact that the Law is silent about a certain thing, is a proof that it allows freedom of action in that particular matter.  

In the first part of this verse, the Quran enunciates the four fundamental principles of the Islamic Constitution, and in the second part teaches the wisdom that underlies them. The Muslims have been enjoined to follow the four fundamental principles if they are true believers; otherwise their profession of Islam will become doubtful. Then they have been taught to build their system of life on these because therein also lies their well-being; for this alone can keep them on the right path in this world and lead them to a happy life in the Hereafter.

 

Jazak Allah Khairan.

[Muslim2010]

13 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Assalam O Alaikum Wa Rehmatullah Wa Barakatuhu,

This verse is the basis of the whole religious, cultural and political system of Islam and is the first and foremost article of the constitution of an Islamic State.

 يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O believers! Obey Allah, obey the Rasool and those charged with authority among you. Should you have a dispute in anything, refer it to Allah and His Rasool, if you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day. This course of action will be better and more suitable. [4:59]

Walekum salam, 

The above verse defines the absolute authority of the prophet and the Ulil Amr. There is no deviation that  some orders of ulil amr will be followed and others will not. 

The prophet and ulil Amr are covered under one أَطِيعُوا  which proves that they should be obeyed like that of the prophet and it clearly mentions that they should have the same characteristics as that of the Prophet himself.

Who are those Ulil Amr? This is question which is the critical one for both sunni and shia.

The shia point of view is justified by the hadith that they are 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet whom we obey  as per sayings of the prophet.

If the Ulil Amr are rulers then should muslim living in America obey Barak obama for their religious and other matters?

Regards

Edited August 20, 2016 by skamran110

[Fahad Sani]

1 hour ago, skamran110 said:

Walekum salam, 

The above verse defines the absolute authority of the prophet and the Ulil Amr. There is no deviation that  some orders of ulil amr will be followed and others will not. 

The prophet and ulil Amr are covered under one أَطِيعُوا  which proves that they should be obeyed like that of the prophet and it clearly mentions that they should have the same characteristics as that of the Prophet himself.

No brother. This verse is very clear. Absolute and unconditional obedience is only for Allah and for His Prophet s.a.w.w.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O believers! Obey Allah, obey the Rasool and those charged with authority among you. Should you have a dispute in anything, refer it to Allah and His Rasool, if you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day. This course of action will be better and more suitable. [4:59]

The verse commands believers to obey Allaah, (Who must be obeyed in His own right because He is the Creator, Owner, and Master). Then the verse repeats the command and says, “Obey the Messenger” (who should also be obeyed in his own right as the Messenger of Allaah, because Allaah sent him and ordered us to obey him. He also told us, “Whoever obeys Messenger, he in fact obeys Allaah). In both of these segments the command “obey” (Atee’oo) was repeated, because obedience to both was on their own authority and in their own right, One as the Creator and the second as His Messenger. Then the verse continues: “and those charged with authority”. For this segment the command ‘Obey’ has not been repeated, indicating that the obedience to Ulil Amr (those charged with authority), although necessary for the existence of an organized community, is subservient to the obedience to Allaah and His Messenger. The obedience to Ulil Amr must only be in matters and orders that are in line with and supported by clear injunctions from Allaah and His Messenger. The Ulil Amr cannot demand obedience in their own right or on their own authority, but only in compliance of the teachings of the Qur-aan and Sunnah with clear support from them. That is why the word ‘obey’ (Atee’oo) has not been repeated for them. Had obedience to Ulil-Amr not to be constrained within the provisions of the Qur-aan and Sunnah, the style would have been different: Either It would have only one ‘obey’, i.e., “Obey, Allaah, the Messenger and ulool-amr” ; or, obey for all three parties, “obey Allaah, obey the Messenger and obey uloo-amr”, Not, “Obey Allaah, obey the Messenger, and ulool-amr from among you.”

Several verses of Quran clarify that absolute obedience is for Allah and for His Prophet (s.a.w.w) only.

[Say, “Obey Allah and the Messenger.” But if they turn away – then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.] (3:32)

[And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.] (3:132)

[All who obey Allah and the messenger are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship!]!(4:69)

[And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away – then know that upon Our Messenger is only [the responsibility for] clear notification.] (5:92)

[So fear Allah and amend that which is between you and obey Allah and His Messenger, if you should be believers.] (8:1)

[O you who have believed, obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn from him while you hear [his order].] (8:20)

[And obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not dispute and [thus] lose courage and [then] your strength would depart; and be patient.] (8:46)

[Allah says: “…Obey Allah and His Messenger…”] (33:33)

[One who disobeys God and His Messenger is in plain error.](33:36)

[O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and do not invalidate your deeds.] (47:33)

 

1 hour ago, skamran110 said:

Who are those Ulil Amr? This is question which is the critical one for both sunni and shia.

The shia point of view is justified by the hadith that they are 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet whom we obey  as per sayings of the prophet.

If the Ulil Amr are rulers then should muslim living in America obey Barak obama for their religious and other matters?

Ulil Amr refers to all those who have some authority/power over people. This include caliphs, their governors, other officials, judges etc.

Hadith of 12 caliphs can not be applied to 12 Imams from ahlebayt. Except the first two no one else got such authority or power over the affairs of people.

This verse is about muslim rulers (doesnt include non muslim officials). And their obedience is also conditional. They are to be obeyed and followed only if they obey and follow Allah and His messenger. And when there arises a dispute between believers and Ulil Amr,  at that time they need to refer back to Allah and the Messenger.

O believers! Obey Allah, obey the Rasool and those charged with authority among you. Should you have a dispute in anything, refer it to Allah and His Rasool, if you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day. This course of action will be better and more suitable. [4:59]

 

Imam Ali a.s views about Nisa 59

Letter #53 to al-Ashtar al-Nakha’ee whom Ali a.s had appointed as the ruler of Egypt.

وَارْدُدْ إِلَى الله وَرَسُولِهِ مَا يُضْلِعُكَ مِنَ الْخُطُوبِ، وَيَشْتَبِهُ عَلَيْكَ مِنَ الاْمُورِ، فَقَدْ قَالَ اللهُ سبحانه لِقَوْم أَحَبَّ إِرْشَادَهُمْ: (يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الاْمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْء فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللهِ وَالرَّسُولِ)، فَالرَّدُّ إِلَى اللهِ: الاْخْذُ بِمُحْكَمِ كِتَابِهِ، وَالرَّدُّ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ: الاْخْذُ بِسُنَّتِهِ الْجَامِعةِ غَيْرِ الْمُفَرِّقَةِ
 

“When you are faced with problems which you cannot solve or with a difficult situation from which you cannot escape or when uncertain and doubtful circumstances confuse and perplex you, then turn to Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) because Allah has thus ordered those whom He wants to guide: “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger” The way to turn to Allah is to act diligently according to the clear and explicit orders given in His Holy Book and to the turn to the Holy Prophet (s) means to follow those of his Sunnah about which there is no doubt and ambiguity and which have been generally accepted to be correctly recorded.”

 

Ayatullah Baqir Saddr views about Nisa 59

 

W.salam.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Fahad Sani

[Aabiss_Shakari]

@Fahad Sani and had dispute about Wilayat/Imamat/Caliphate after Prophet (pbuH) so we referred it to Allah and Prophet (pbuh) and got Quran 5:67 in reply and Ghadir Declaration in reply.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Aabiss_Shakari

[Fahad Sani]

@Aabiss_Shakari

How 5:67 suffice you in this regard. 5:67 doesnt say itself that I was revealed at ghadir or what is my purpose of revelation etc? Verse itself is silent.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

2 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

@Aabiss_Shakari

How 5:67 suffice you in this regard. 5:67 doesnt say itself that I was revealed at ghadir or what is my purpose of revelation etc? Verse itself is silent.

Look for Tafseer. If you say Quranic translation is enough at each case then you are a Quranist (a hadith rejector) and believe in literal interpretation of Quran which is against settled rules of interpretation.

[Fahad Sani]

12 minutes ago, Aabiss_Shakari said:

Look for Tafseer. If you say Quranic translation is enough at each case then you are a Quranist (a hadith rejector) and believe in literal interpretation of Quran which is against settled rules of interpretation.

Agree. But this is not the case with all verses of Quran. Many verses of Quran are self explanatory like Nisa 59, its very clear and explicit. Moreover, major and critical concepts are mentioned atleast twice in Quran. So we should first find the tafsir of Quranic verses from the Quran itself. Then we should go to ahadith for further details. Furthermore, in order to properly understand any particular verse of Quran and its context, if we also read few verses before and after the verse under study then it will solve the matter to a greater extent.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

1 minute ago, Fahad Sani said:

Agree. But this is not the case with all verses of Quran. Many verses of Quran are self explanatory like Nisa 59, its very clear and explicit. Moreover, major and critical concepts are mentioned atleast twice in Quran. So we should first find the tafsir of Quranic verses from the Quran itself. Then we should go to ahadith for further details. Furthermore, in order to properly understand any particular verse of Quran and its context, if we also read few verses before and after the verse under study then it will solve the matter to a greater extent.

Not necessarily.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Ok let us start it this way. I have dispute with you regarding caliphate of Ali (a.s) or Abu Bakar after Prophet (PBUH). I presented few arguments from Quran and sayings of Prophet (pbuh) (which as expected rejected by you). Now how you prove caliphate of Abu Bakar (r.a) from Quran and sayings of Prophet (pbuh) [As our dispute regarding Wilayat is to referred to Allah and Prophet (pbuh) as directed by Quran 4:59]

[Muslim2010]

6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Ulil Amr refers to all those who have some authority/power over people. This include caliphs, their governors, other officials, judges etc.

Hadith of 12 caliphs can not be applied to 12 Imams from ahlebayt. Except the first two no one else got such authority or power over the affairs of people.

The is not a logical or valid point as yet in this thread and other threads of immamat you are not able to quote a single verses of quran to justify your point that the caliphs / rulers / leaders chosen by the petiole can have authority over the Muslims.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O believers! Obey Allah, obey the Rasool and those charged with authority among you. Should you have a dispute in anything, refer it to Allah and His Rasool, if you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day. This course of action will be better and more suitable. [4:59]

The following vrese of quran identifies that the leader chosen by Allah swt has authoity over the beleievers.

002.247 [YUSUFALI]:
Their Prophet said to them: “Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you.” They said: “How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?” He said: “Allah hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things.”

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Holy prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Whoso obeys me obeys God, and whoso disobeys me disobeys God. Whoso obeys the commander (appointed by me) obeys me, and whoso disobeys the commander disobeys me. The same tradition transmitted by different persons omits the portion: And whose disobeys the commander disobeys me.

Sahih al Muslim, Kitab al Imara Book 020, Number 4518:

“Whoever obeys ‘Ali, obeys me, whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, whoever disobeys ‘Ali disobeys me, whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah”

Kanz ul Ummal, Page 614, Hadith numbers 32974 & 32977,  Mustadrak al Hakim, Vol. 3, Page 128,  Riyadh ul Nadira, Vol. 3, Page 110

From Shia sources:

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. (4:59)

When the verse (4:59) was revealed, Jabir asked the Prophet (S): "We know Allah and the Prophet, but who are those vested with authority whose obedience has been conjoined to that of Allah and yourself?"
The Prophet (S) said: "They are my Caliphs and the Imams of Muslims after me.The first of them is ‘Ali; then al-Hasan; then al-Husayn; then ‘Ali son of al-Husayn; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali who has been mentioned ‘al-Baqir’ in the Torah (the old testament). O Jabir! You will meet him. When you see him, convey my greetings to him. He will be succeeded by his son, Ja’far al-Sadiq (the Truthful); then Musa son of Ja’far; then ‘Ali son of Musa; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali; then ‘Ali son of Muhammad; then al-Hasan son of ‘Ali. He will be followed by his son whose name and nick name will be the same as mine. He will be Proof of Allah (Hujjatullah) on the earth, and the one spared by Allah (Baqiyyatullah) to maintain the cause of faith among mankind. He shall conquer the whole world from the east to the west. So long will he remain hidden from the eyes of his followers and friends that the belief in his leadership will remain only in those hearts which have been tested by Allah for faith.".

Jabir said: "O Messenger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?”The Prophet said: "Yes! by Him who sent me with prophethood! They will be guided by his light, and benefit from his leadership during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even though it is hidden in the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasured knowledge of Allah. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know.”(Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53).

brother @Fahad Sani if you consider otherwise that the 3 caliphs are Ulil Amr then please quote an authentic hadith mentioning that Abubakr, Umar and Usman are Ulil Amr for the believers.

Wasalam

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by skamran110

[elite]

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلَا تَنَازَعُوا فَتَفْشَلُوا وَتَذْهَبَ رِيحُكُمْ ۖ وَاصْبِرُوا ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ {46}:8

[Pickthal 8:46] And obey Allah and His messenger, and dispute not one with another  lest ye falter and your strength depart from you; but be steadfast! Lo! Allah is with the steadfast.

Quran orders the Believers “ not to dispute with one another”  So 

فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ

Does not mean dispute between the believers or dispute between Ulil Amr and believers which is totally against verse 8: 46 of the Quran. 

فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ is best explained by Imam Ali(as) in the following word which were said to Malik who was going to be the ruler of Egypt.

 "When you are faced with problems which you cannot solve or with a difficult situation from which you cannot escape or when uncertain and doubtful circumstances confuse and perplex you, then turn to Allah and the Holy Prophet (s)."

فَإنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْء  means to find out the solution or to arrive at some conclusion or decision in any matter. It Should be according to Quran and Sunnah of Prophet(saw). When it is according to Quran and Sunnah of Prophet(saw) ayat 4:59 further says “That is the best [way] and best in result”

When people of Firon gathered to decide the matter on what to do with musa(as) is described by the following verse of quran

فَتَنَازَعُوا أَمْرَهُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ وَأَسَرُّوا النَّجْوَىٰ {62}

[Pickthal 20:62] Then they debated one with another what they must do, and they kept their counsel secret.

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by elite

[Fahad Sani]

7 hours ago, Aabiss_Shakari said:

Ok let us start it this way. I have dispute with you regarding caliphate of Ali (a.s) or Abu Bakar after Prophet (PBUH). I presented few arguments from Quran and sayings of Prophet (pbuh) (which as expected rejected by you). Now how you prove caliphate of Abu Bakar (r.a) from Quran and sayings of Prophet (pbuh) [As our dispute regarding Wilayat is to referred to Allah and Prophet (pbuh) as directed by Quran 4:59]

 

Brother, this verse says if you have dispute with ulil amr (those in authority) concerning any matter than refer the matter to Allah and Prophet meaning to Quran and Sunnah. Today neither Abu bakr nor Ali is ulil amr.

Today who is ulil amr according to twelvers?

 

3 hours ago, skamran110 said:

The is not a logical or valid point as yet in this thread and other threads of immamat you are not able to quote a single verses of quran to justify your point that the caliphs / rulers / leaders chosen by the petiole can have authority over the Muslims.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O believers! Obey Allah, obey the Rasool and those charged with authority among you. Should you have a dispute in anything, refer it to Allah and His Rasool, if you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day. This course of action will be better and more suitable. [4:59]

The following vrese of quran identifies that the leader chosen by Allah swt has authoity over the beleievers.

002.247 [YUSUFALI]:
Their Prophet said to them: “Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you.” They said: “How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?” He said: “Allah hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things.”

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Holy prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Whoso obeys me obeys God, and whoso disobeys me disobeys God. Whoso obeys the commander (appointed by me) obeys me, and whoso disobeys the commander disobeys me. The same tradition transmitted by different persons omits the portion: And whose disobeys the commander disobeys me.

Sahih al Muslim, Kitab al Imara Book 020, Number 4518:

“Whoever obeys ‘Ali, obeys me, whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, whoever disobeys ‘Ali disobeys me, whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah”

Kanz ul Ummal, Page 614, Hadith numbers 32974 & 32977,  Mustadrak al Hakim, Vol. 3, Page 128,  Riyadh ul Nadira, Vol. 3, Page 110

From Shia sources:

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. (4:59)

When the verse (4:59) was revealed, Jabir asked the Prophet (S): "We know Allah and the Prophet, but who are those vested with authority whose obedience has been conjoined to that of Allah and yourself?"
The Prophet (S) said: "They are my Caliphs and the Imams of Muslims after me.The first of them is ‘Ali; then al-Hasan; then al-Husayn; then ‘Ali son of al-Husayn; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali who has been mentioned ‘al-Baqir’ in the Torah (the old testament). O Jabir! You will meet him. When you see him, convey my greetings to him. He will be succeeded by his son, Ja’far al-Sadiq (the Truthful); then Musa son of Ja’far; then ‘Ali son of Musa; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali; then ‘Ali son of Muhammad; then al-Hasan son of ‘Ali. He will be followed by his son whose name and nick name will be the same as mine. He will be Proof of Allah (Hujjatullah) on the earth, and the one spared by Allah (Baqiyyatullah) to maintain the cause of faith among mankind. He shall conquer the whole world from the east to the west. So long will he remain hidden from the eyes of his followers and friends that the belief in his leadership will remain only in those hearts which have been tested by Allah for faith.".

Jabir said: "O Messenger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?”The Prophet said: "Yes! by Him who sent me with prophethood! They will be guided by his light, and benefit from his leadership during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even though it is hidden in the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasured knowledge of Allah. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know.”(Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53).

brother @Fahad Sani if you consider otherwise that the 3 caliphs are Ulil Amr then please quote an authentic hadith mentioning that Abubakr, Umar and Usman are Ulil Amr for the believers.

Wasalam

 

Brother, 4.59 is very clear. Its talking about ulil Amr (those in authority). How can those from ahlebayt be called ulil amr who had never been in authority. Except Imam Ali for few years and Imam Hassan a.s for few months. And Imam Mahdi will get the authority when he will come.

Brother, Quran just give general rules and regulations on how caliphs/rulers should work. It describe their responsibilites etc. Who will be the caliph is not important. Most important thing is that what are the principles for this post.

Here are some narrations.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship."
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/60/122

Comments: Prophet s.a.w.w said after me there will be caliphs and they will increase in number. Its not limited to number 12. There number will increase. Moreover out of 12 Imams of ahlebayt only two became caliphs in reality.

 

Narrated Safinah:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the Kingdom of His Kingdom to anyone He wills.

Sa'id told that Safinah said to him: Calculate Abu Bakr's caliphate as two years, 'Umar's as ten, 'Uthman's as twelve and 'Ali so and so. Sa'id said: I said to Safinah: They conceive that 'Ali was not a caliph. He replied: The buttocks of Marwan told a lie. http://www.sunnah.com/abudawud/42/51

Comment: The Caliphate of Prophecy meaning rightly guide calipahte will be for 30 years only. More detail is mentioned in Musnad Ahmed hadith 18430.

 

It has been narrated on the authority of Aba Sa'id al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

When oath of allegiance has been taken for two caliphs, kill the one for whom the oath was taken later. http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/33/96

 

Comments: Caliph is the one who has given oath of allegience and thus power or authority to rule. Except Imam Ali and Imam Hassan this did not happen with any other Imam from ahlebayt.

 

[Muslim2010]

2 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Brother, 4.59 is very clear. Its talking about ulil Amr (those in authority). How can those from ahlebayt be called ulil amr who had never been in authority. Except Imam Ali for few years and Imam Hassan a.s for few months. And Imam Mahdi will get the authority when he will come.

1. First i have already mentioned the verses 2:247 which proves that he ruler is appointed by Allah swt and not by the people.  This verse also mentions the authority given by Allah swt and not given by the people. 

2. The prophet has cavalry mentioned in hadith Thaqlayn two weighty things, Quran nad ahl labayat , Hadith of khalifaten, and further Ghadeer. All are evidences for the twelve Imams who are Ulil Amr for the ummah.

3 i still await the verse that mentions that people can chose the caliphs, as the above vrese 4:59 and 2:247 makes it clear that they are rulers / caliphs chosen by Allah swt and not by the people.

4. still there is no verse in the quran to justify the doctrines of people chosen caliph.

Edited August 20, 2016 by skamran110

[Muslim2010]

3 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Here are some narrations.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship."
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/60/122

Comments: Prophet s.a.w.w said after me there will be caliphs and they will increase in number. Its not limited to number 12. There number will increase. Moreover out of 12 Imams of ahlebayt only two became caliphs in reality.

The following hadiths from Sahih Muslim make your assumption void:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the Twelve men."

References:

http://sunnah.com/muslim/33/6

=========

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been Twelve Caliphs."

References:

http://sunnah.com/muslim/33/8

=========

Again:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraish."

References:

http://sunnah.com/muslim/33/11

 

[Muslim2010]

3 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Narrated Safinah:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the Kingdom of His Kingdom to anyone He wills.

Sa'id told that Safinah said to him: Calculate Abu Bakr's caliphate as two years, 'Umar's as ten, 'Uthman's as twelve and 'Ali so and so. Sa'id said: I said to Safinah: They conceive that 'Ali was not a caliph. He replied: The buttocks of Marwan told a lie. http://www.sunnah.com/abudawud/42/51

Comment: The Caliphate of Prophecy meaning rightly guide calipahte will be for 30 years only. More detail is mentioned in Musnad Ahmed hadith 18430.

It has been narrated on the authority of Aba Sa'id al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

When oath of allegiance has been taken for two caliphs, kill the one for whom the oath was taken later. http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/33/96

 

Comments: Caliph is the one who has given oath of allegience and thus power or authority to rule. Except Imam Ali and Imam Hassan this did not happen with any other Imam from ahlebayt.

 

Sorry brother none of the hadith quoted by you mentions that the 3 caliphs ie Abubakr, Umar and Usman have been qouted as Ulil Amr for  believers. 

In the absence of a such hadith we do have right to reject them as Ulil Amr for believers.

Edited August 20, 2016 by skamran110

[S.M.H.A.]

تَبَارَكَ الَّذِي بِيَدِهِ الْمُلْكُ وَهُوَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ {1}

[Shakir 67:1] Blessed is He in Whose hand is the kingdom, and He has power over all things,
[Pickthal 67:1] Blessed is He in Whose hand is the Sovereignty, and, He is Able to do all things.
[Yusufali 67:1] Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath Power;-
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 67:1]

For tabarakalladhi (blessed is He) refer to the commentary of Fatihah: 2. What has been said about hamd in Fatihah: 2 applies to tabarakallah also.

Bi-yadihi means in the hands of Him who holds power and authority. Mulk means kingdom, dominion or sovereignty. Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 255 and Ali Imran: 26. His authority carries out His will, or does all that He wills not only in the visible and invisible realms of space, conceivable in terms of matter and energy by the human intellect, but also beyond them.

In order not to fall a pray to imaginary or conjectural theories of man-made gods created by a few exploiters to wield authority over the whole mass of mankind, man must understand and accept the omnipotent sovereignty of Allah. Then alone he can get rid of false leaders and establish a just, fair and orderly society for the overall welfare of all human beings. Sovereignty belongs to Allah. There is no god but Allah. The whole universe is His kingdom. Refer to page 11 for the belief of the Christians that God is in heaven which implies that He has no authority (kingdom) on the earth.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

Next, we need to clearly define Khalifa/Calpih/Vicegerent(Qur'an 2:30). If the understanding is flawed at the basic level. It lead to other faulty assumptions. 

Angels nor the prophets have the Authority to assign/choose Khalifa to represent Allah(awj). Nor do the prophets choose their own Khalifa. Allah(awj) appoints and Prophet announce the Divine appointment of His Kahlifa, and Ummah Imam(Leader). This is Allah(awj) Kingdom, (Mulk).

Not our' to choose people  to run/explain his Religion. Choice of the people(democracy) would mean, we want our kind/brand of Religion. Secular world is an example -Majority chooses its own kind/type, majority can choose the leader they think will benefit their lifestyle/brand of religion( this is against the concept of ;"Justice'). This would imply, (Religion is invented by the humans).

Above verse, needs to be looked in proper context. Not only in isolation.

[S.M.H.A.]

 

"The Qur'anic verse responds, وَالَّذِيْنَ ٰامَنُو - the believers are your walis.

What believers?

Can every faithful who believes in the religion and the school of thought be the Wali and the ruler of the Islamic society? In this situation there will be as many rulers as the believers........"

.........

"Now you see the importance a ruler in an Islamic society has. How important it is to decide who the ruler should be. The ruler of the Islamic society should be one appointed by God.

Another verse of Glorious Qur'an says:

اَطِيْعُو الله وَ اَطِيْعُوا الرَّسُوْلَ وَ اُولِي الْاَمْرِ مِنْکُمْ

Obey God and His Prophet and those charged with authority among you.1

Who are the people charged with authority?

The ignorant and foolish Muslims of the time used to think that "those charged with authority" referred to anyone who became a ruler and who could issue commands.

We say, no; not every person is a holder of authority. If every ruler has this authority and has the legal status according to Qur'an, then there are examples of certain scoundrels ruling on certain lands with complete authority; have they been charged with authority by God?

The holder of authority Shi'ahs believe in, is a person who has been given the right to rule by God; he is an individual who is just like other human beings, except he has received Wilayat from God since God is the Owner of the Grand Wilayat.........."

https://www.al-islam.org/wilayat-guardianship-ayatullah-sayyid-ali-khamenei/speech-4-practical-establishment-wilayat#different-aspects-wilayat

[ShiaMan14]

On 8/19/2016 at 8:51 AM, Fahad Sani said:

After the first and the second allegiance, and subordinate to these, the Muslims owe allegiance to those invested with authority from among themselves. The Arabic word ulil-amr is very comprehensive, which comprises all those persons who are in any way at the helm of the affairs of the Muslims-religious scholars, thinkers, political leaders, administrators, judges of law courts, tribal chiefs and the like. In short, all those, who are in any way invested with authority from among the Muslims, are to be obeyed, and it is not right to disturb the peace of the community life of the Muslims by entering into conflict with them, provided that (a) they are from among the Muslims, and (b) they are obedient to Allah and His Messenger. These two conditions are a pre-requisite for obedience to them, and these have been explicitly laid down in the verse and have also been fully explained by the Holy Prophet. In support of this some Traditions are cited below:

So what you are saying it is obligatory on all Muslims to listen to their leaders such as Saddam Hussain, Al-Saud, Osama Bin Laden, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi???

Let's see who truly honors Allah. We say 'ulil amr' can only come from Allah since He is the ultimate authority.

You say Allah doesn't make ulilamr meaning authority does not come from him so ultimate authority does not come from Allah.

Edited August 20, 2016 by shiaman14

[S.M.H.A.]

On 8/19/2016 at 9:51 AM, Fahad Sani said:

(3) After the first and the second allegiance, and subordinate to these, the Muslims owe allegiance to those invested with authority from among themselves. The Arabic word ulil-amr is very comprehensive, which comprises all those persons who are in any way at the helm of the affairs of the Muslims-religious scholars, thinkers, political leaders, administrators, judges of law courts, tribal chiefs and the like. In short, all those, who are in any way invested with authority from among the Muslims, are to be obeyed, and it is not right to disturb the peace of the community life of the Muslims by entering into conflict with them, provided that (a) they are from among the Muslims, and (b) they are obedient to Allah and His Messenger. These two conditions are a pre-requisite for obedience to them, and these have been explicitly laid down in the verse and have also been fully explained by the Holy Prophet. In support of this some Traditions are cited below:

Can you expand on this, let's say an "Amir" incharge of a unit of 10- 20. Absolute unconditional/obedience is required. (any order, regardless of what it is - even to take life)What will be the plenty of any disobedience to his order. ? or a local judge presiding over a little Village- need to be obeyed unconditionally? 

Can you be explicit on the punishment here? 

[elite]

 

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ

Where Word "Atiu" is Common between Allah & Rasul  indicates that Obedience to Messeger of Allah is Obedience to Allah

مَنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ ۖ وَمَنْ تَوَلَّىٰ فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا {80}

[Shakir 4:80] Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.

 وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ

Likewise word “Atiu” which  is common between “Rasul” and “Ulil Amr” indicates that obedience to Ulil Amr is obedience to Rasul

Where as

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ

Where we see repetition of the word “Atiu” with Allah and  Messenger shows that  some obligations fulfillment of which  represents  “Atiullah”  like Salat and Zakat.

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ 24:54

[Shakir 24:54] Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; .......

وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ {56}:24

[Shakir 24:56] And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and obey the Messenger, so that mercy may be shown to you.

In the above verse   “ Wa Aqimu I-Salat  wa atu I-Zakat “  represents  “Atiullah”     

Edited August 21, 2016 by elite

[Fahad Sani]

18 hours ago, skamran110 said:

1. First i have already mentioned the verses 2:247 which proves that he ruler is appointed by Allah swt and not by the people.  This verse also mentions the authority given by Allah swt and not given by the people. 

2. The prophet has cavalry mentioned in hadith Thaqlayn two weighty things, Quran nad ahl labayat , Hadith of khalifaten, and further Ghadeer. All are evidences for the twelve Imams who are Ulil Amr for the ummah.

3 i still await the verse that mentions that people can chose the caliphs, as the above vrese 4:59 and 2:247 makes it clear that they are rulers / caliphs chosen by Allah swt and not by the people.

4. still there is no verse in the quran to justify the doctrines of people chosen caliph.

1. Case of isrealites was different. I have showed the prophetic hadith on that. Their every matter was handled by Prophets. And when saul was appointed as their king he started his work immediately. He practised the authority given to him. But we see Imam Ali a.s did not practice the same after Prophet s.a.w.w. He got the authority in reality after Hz. Uthman a.s and through shoora (consultation).

2. No. Not at all. Hadith saqlain and ghadir doesnt mention to obey or follow ahlebayt. For guidance prophet said you have Quran while for ahlebayt he said take care of them. Exactly what sahabah did. And ahlebayt is not limited to 12 Imams only. Ulil amr mean having authority practically not in theory.

3. 4.59 doesnt say rulers will only be chosen by Allah. It says ulil amr minkum (those in authority from you). In every era ulil amr will be different and it also include other officials of the state. The word ulil-amr is very comprehensive, which comprises all those persons who are in any way at the helm of the affairs of the Muslims-religious scholars, thinkers, political leaders, administrators, judges of law courts, tribal chiefs and the like.

4. Quran gives the general principles regarding this. Who will be the caliph is not important. Rules and regulations are important.

Twelver concept of ulil amr or imamate is just a theory. Imam Jafar sadiq a.s that Imam is the one who can be seen and heard.

 قال الإمام الصادق (ع): (( مَن مَاتَ وَلَيسَ عَليهِ إمِامٌ حَيٌّ ظَاهِرٌ! مَاتَ مِيتَةً جَاهِليّة، قِيلَ: إمِامٌ حَي ؟
قَال: إمِامٌ حَيٌّ، إمِامٌ حَيّ ))

بحارالانوار ج23 ص92 مستدرك الوسائل ج18 ص177 الاختصاص269

Abu Abdillah (as) said: One who dies without having a living and Zahir (visible, i.e which can be seen) Imam dies the death of ignorance. The narrator asked: The living Imam? He replied: the living Imam, the living Imam.

Is the 12th Imam visibile? Surely not.

 

17 hours ago, skamran110 said:

The following hadiths from Sahih Muslim make your assumption void:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the Twelve men."

References:

http://sunnah.com/muslim/33/6

=========

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been Twelve Caliphs."

References:

http://sunnah.com/muslim/33/8

=========

Again:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraish."

References:

http://sunnah.com/muslim/33/11

 

No brother. All such ahadith have nothing to do with twelver shia concept of imamate. Thats why I didnt share any of such hadith in this thread.

Read carefully what these ahadith say. Dont just llok at the number twelve.

"The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the Twelve men."

Is islam is conducting well today? Are the affairs of muslim well today? Since the 1st to 12th Imam.

 

"Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been Twelve Caliphs."

Is Islam in the successful and in the dominant state since 1st to 12th Imam?

 

"The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraish."

There are several other ahadith as well on this matter in the same book from which you have quoted these. All say caliphs, those having authority, those who will govern. Those who will rule.

Can Those in authority (Ulil Amr) be the ones who were never in authority?

Atleast Nine Imams cannot be considered as Ulil Amr/Caliphs (those in authority), because they never had such authority. Starting from Imam Hussein (a.s) till Imam Hasan Askari (a.s), none of them possessed authority over the affairs of people of their time. So how could they be considered “those in authority” (Ulil Amr) or caliphs or ameers, when they weren’t having authority?

 

17 hours ago, skamran110 said:

Sorry brother none of the hadith quoted by you mentions that the 3 caliphs ie Abubakr, Umar and Usman have been qouted as Ulil Amr for  believers. 

In the absence of a such hadith we do have right to reject them as Ulil Amr for believers.

Ulil amr is every person who has authority over affairs of people. After Prophet s.a.w.w Muhajirun and ansar gave that authority to Hz. Abu Bakr r.a, then to Umar r.a, then to uthman r.a, then to Ali a.s, then to Hassan a.s. This was the ned of rightly guided caliphate. After that cruel rulers came starting from Muawiya bin Abu Sufiyan.

Your rejection of first three caliphs is based on absense of hadith on this matter (but this wasnt the belief of muhajirun and ansar including ahlebayt), while my rejection of divine imamate is based on an authentic narration from Imam Jafar Sadiq a.s (same approach was followed by almost all members of ahlebayt, see book Firaq ul Shia of Naubakhti).

“Siyar A’laam un-Nubulaa” at page 259 Dhahabi narrated:

كتب إلي عبد المنعم بن يحيى الزهري، وطائفة قالوا: أنبأنا داود بن أحمد، أنبأنا محمد بن عمر القاضي، أنبأنا عبد الصمد بن علي، أنبأنا أبو الحسن الدارقطني، حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن إسماعيل الادمي، حدثنا محمد بن الحسين الحنيني، حدثنا مخلد بن أبي قريش الطحان، حدثنا عبد الجبار بن العباس الهمداني، أن جعفر بن محمد أتاهم وهم يريدون أن يرتحلوا من المدينة، فقال: ” إنكم إن شاء الله من صالحي أهل مصركم، فأبلغوهم عني: من زعم أني إمام معصوم مفترض الطاعة، فأنا منه برئ، ومن زعم أني أبرأ من أبي بكر وعمر، فأنا منه برئ “.

From Abdul Jabar ibn Al-Abbas al-Hamadani: ”Jafar as-Sadiq came to them when they were leaving Madinah and told them: You are inshallah from amongst the best of people from your country (or from your Egypt)  So report to them from me: He who claims that I’m an infallible imam who must be obeyed, I disassociate myself from him and he who claims that I disassociate myself from Abu Bakr and Umar, I disassociate myself from him.”

 

W.salam

[Fahad Sani]

15 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

 

"The Qur'anic verse responds, وَالَّذِيْنَ ٰامَنُو - the believers are your walis.

What believers?

Can every faithful who believes in the religion and the school of thought be the Wali and the ruler of the Islamic society? In this situation there will be as many rulers as the believers........"

.........

"Now you see the importance a ruler in an Islamic society has. How important it is to decide who the ruler should be. The ruler of the Islamic society should be one appointed by God.

Another verse of Glorious Qur'an says:

اَطِيْعُو الله وَ اَطِيْعُوا الرَّسُوْلَ وَ اُولِي الْاَمْرِ مِنْکُمْ

Obey God and His Prophet and those charged with authority among you.1

Who are the people charged with authority?

The ignorant and foolish Muslims of the time used to think that "those charged with authority" referred to anyone who became a ruler and who could issue commands.

We say, no; not every person is a holder of authority. If every ruler has this authority and has the legal status according to Qur'an, then there are examples of certain scoundrels ruling on certain lands with complete authority; have they been charged with authority by God?

The holder of authority Shi'ahs believe in, is a person who has been given the right to rule by God; he is an individual who is just like other human beings, except he has received Wilayat from God since God is the Owner of the Grand Wilayat.........."

https://www.al-islam.org/wilayat-guardianship-ayatullah-sayyid-ali-khamenei/speech-4-practical-establishment-wilayat#different-aspects-wilayat

 

Can Those in authority (Ulil Amr) be the ones who were never in authority?

Atleast Nine Imams cannot be considered as Ulil Amr/Caliphs (those in authority), because they never had such authority. Starting from Imam Hussein (a.s) till Imam Hasan Askari (a.s), none of them possessed authority over the affairs of people of their time. So how could they be considered “those in authority” (Ulil Amr) or caliphs or ameers, when they weren’t having authority?

Moreover, present hidden twelfth Shia Imam, doesn’t possess any authority over the affairs of Shias, be it Shias of Iran or any other country. For example: The Shia state of Iran, is run by Shia leaders who call themselves a Wali Al Amr, this isn’t a secret, the world knows about it, Wali Al Amr is the one who has authority over the affairs of people of Iranian state and He neither was divinely appointed by Allah, nor by Prophet or Imam and nor is he infallible.

 

14 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

So what you are saying it is obligatory on all Muslims to listen to their leaders such as Saddam Hussain, Al-Saud, Osama Bin Laden, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi???

Let's see who truly honors Allah. We say 'ulil amr' can only come from Allah since He is the ultimate authority.

You say Allah doesn't make ulilamr meaning authority does not come from him so ultimate authority does not come from Allah.

Its not obligatory brother. Obedience to ulil amr is conditional. Ulil amr can be best and can be worst as well.

 

Narrated `Ali:

The Prophet (ﷺ) sent a Sariya under the command of a man from the Ansar and ordered the soldiers to obey him. He (i.e. the commander) became angry and said "Didn't the Prophet (ﷺ) order you to obey me!" They replied, "Yes." He said, "Collect fire-wood for me." So they collected it. He said, "Make a fire." When they made it, he said, "Enter it (i.e. the fire)." So they intended to do that and started holding each other and saying, "We run towards (i.e. take refuge with) the Prophet (ﷺ) from the fire." They kept on saying that till the fire was extinguished and the anger of the commander abated. When that news reached the Prophet (ﷺ) he said, "If they had entered it (i.e. the fire), they would not have come out of it till the Day of Resurrection. Obedience (to somebody) is required when he enjoins what is good." http://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/369

 

It has been narrated (through a different chain of tmnamitters) on the authority of Umm Salama (wife of the Holy Prophet) that he said:

Amirs will be appointed over you, and you will find them doing good as well as bad deeds. One who hates their bad deeds is absolved from blame. One who disapproves of their bad deeds is (also) safe (so far as Divine wrath is concerned). But one who approves of their bad deeds and imitates them (is doomed). People asked: Messenger of Allah, shouldn't we fight against them? He replied: No, as long as they say their prayer. (" Hating and disapproving" refers to liking and disliking from the heart.) http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/33/98

 

 

It has been narrated on the authority of 'Auf b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

The best of your rulers are those whom you love and who love you, who invoke God's blessings upon you and you invoke His blessings upon them. And the worst of your rulers are those whom you hate and who hate you and whom you curse and who curse you. It was asked (by those present): Shouldn't we overthrow them with the help of the sword? He said: No, as long as they establish prayer among you. If you then find anything detestable in them. You should hate their administration, but do not withdraw yourselves from their obedience. http://sunnah.com/muslim/33/101

 

It his been narrated through a different chain of transmitters, on the authority of Hudhaifa b. al-Yaman who said:

Messenger of Allah, no doubt, we had an evil time (i. e. the days of Jahiliyya or ignorance) and God brought us a good time (i. e. Islamic period) through which we are now living Will there be a bad time after this good time? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Yes. I said: Will there be a good time after this bad time? He said: Yes. I said: Will there be a bad time after good time? He said: Yes. I said: How? Whereupon he said: There will be leaders who will not be led by my guidance and who will not adopt my ways? There will be among them men who will have the hearts of devils in the bodies of human beings. I said: What should I do. Messenger of Allah, if I (happen) to live in that time? He replied: You will listen to the Amir and carry out his orders; even if your back is flogged and your wealth is snatched, you should listen and obey. http://sunnah.com/muslim/33/82

 

 

13 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Can you expand on this, let's say an "Amir" incharge of a unit of 10- 20. Absolute unconditional/obedience is required. (any order, regardless of what it is - even to take life)What will be the plenty of any disobedience to his order. ? or a local judge presiding over a little Village- need to be obeyed unconditionally? 

Can you be explicit on the punishment here? 

1 hour ago, elite said:

 

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ

Where Word "Atiu" is Common between Allah & Rasul  indicates that Obedience to Messeger of Allah is Obedience to Allah

مَنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ ۖ وَمَنْ تَوَلَّىٰ فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا {80}

[Shakir 4:80] Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.

 وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ

Likewise word “Atiu” which  is common between “Rasul” and “Ulil Amr” indicates that obedience to Ulil Amr is obedience to Rasul

Where as

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ

Where we see repetition of the word “Atiu” with Allah and  Messenger shows that  some obligations fulfillment of which  represents  “Atiullah”  like Salat and Zakat.

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ 24:54

[Shakir 24:54] Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; .......

وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ {56}:24

[Shakir 24:56] And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and obey the Messenger, so that mercy may be shown to you.

In the above verse   “ Wa Aqimu I-Salat  wa atu I-Zakat “  represents  “Atiullah”     

 

Absolute and unconditional obedience is only for Allah and for His Prophet s.a.w.w.

Obedience to ulil amr is conditional.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O believers! Obey Allah, obey the Rasool and those charged with authority among you. Should you have a dispute in anything, refer it to Allah and His Rasool, if you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day. This course of action will be better and more suitable. [4:59]

The verse commands believers to obey Allaah, (Who must be obeyed in His own right because He is the Creator, Owner, and Master). Then the verse repeats the command and says, “Obey the Messenger” (who should also be obeyed in his own right as the Messenger of Allaah, because Allaah sent him and ordered us to obey him. He also told us, “Whoever obeys Messenger, he in fact obeys Allaah). In both of these segments the command “obey” (Atee’oo) was repeated, because obedience to both was on their own authority and in their own right, One as the Creator and the second as His Messenger. Then the verse continues: “and those charged with authority”. For this segment the command ‘Obey’ has not been repeated, indicating that the obedience to Ulil Amr (those charged with authority), although necessary for the existence of an organized community, is subservient to the obedience to Allaah and His Messenger. The obedience to Ulil Amr must only be in matters and orders that are in line with and supported by clear injunctions from Allaah and His Messenger. The Ulil Amr cannot demand obedience in their own right or on their own authority, but only in compliance of the teachings of the Qur-aan and Sunnah with clear support from them. That is why the word ‘obey’ (Atee’oo) has not been repeated for them. Had obedience to Ulil-Amr not to be constrained within the provisions of the Qur-aan and Sunnah, the style would have been different: Either It would have only one ‘obey’, i.e., “Obey, Allaah, the Messenger and ulool-amr” ; or, obey for all three parties, “obey Allaah, obey the Messenger and obey uloo-amr”, Not, “Obey Allaah, obey the Messenger, and ulool-amr from among you.”

Several verses of Quran clarify that absolute obedience is for Allah and for His Prophet (s.a.w.w) only.

[Say, “Obey Allah and the Messenger.” But if they turn away – then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.] (3:32)

[And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.] (3:132)

[All who obey Allah and the messenger are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship!]!(4:69)

[And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away – then know that upon Our Messenger is only [the responsibility for] clear notification.] (5:92)

[So fear Allah and amend that which is between you and obey Allah and His Messenger, if you should be believers.] (8:1)

[O you who have believed, obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn from him while you hear [his order].] (8:20)

[And obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not dispute and [thus] lose courage and [then] your strength would depart; and be patient.] (8:46)

[Allah says: “…Obey Allah and His Messenger…”] (33:33)

[One who disobeys God and His Messenger is in plain error.](33:36)

[O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and do not invalidate your deeds.] (47:33)

Edited August 21, 2016 by Fahad Sani

[Abu Hadi]

This is where you are wrong, with all due respect, Br. Fahad. 

If you know Arabic, the term 'Ul Al Amr' means, 'The Possessors of Authority'. 

That is the closest translation in English. 

The term, as it is used in Quran, doesn't mean or imply that the Possessor needs to be 'Dhahr' or exercise the authority in the public sphere. This is conjecture that some scholars have followed. It does not come from Quran.

Ul Al Amr, as it is understood by most Islamic Scholars who have done a deep study on this subject, is something that is given by Allah(s.w.a) to certain individuals. They have it, irrespective if it is 'Dhahr', apparent, as it was with some such as Imam Ali(a.s) for a certain time or Imam Hassan(a.s) for a certain time, or it is 'Batin', hidden from the general population. But even though it was hidden from the general population, it was still 'Dhahr' or apparent to their followers, i.e. those who followed the Quran and obeyed them. 

Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) said of Hassan and Hussain(a.s), 'Imamain, Qaim wa Qaid'. He(p.b.u.h) said, 'Hassan and Husain are two Imams, whether they are standing or sitting'. In the Arabic language, this phrase is clear and means, 'They are two Imams, whether they exercise their Imamate amoung the people (Qaim) or don't (Qaid). At the time this hadith was said, Imam Hassan and Imam Husain were little children, so obviously they had no authority of the kind you are talking about. 

The fact that the general population of Muslims is was deprived of the Imamate of the Just Imams(a.s), Imam Husain(a.s) and currently to Imam Mehdi(a.f.s) is precisely because of attitudes such as the one you are stating. 

It is because they are going against Quran, Hadith Thaqalain, Ghadeer, and many other proofs of the Imamate of Twelve Imams from Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) and so they are being deprived by Allah(s.w.a) of Just Leadership. And because they are being deprived of this Just Leadership, we see the Ummah in the state that it is in, with Muslim killing each other, bombing each other, doing takfir on each other, etc, etc, to states of misery that we are unable to calculate. 

If the Ummah, as a whole, chooses to recognize this fact, things will begin to change. As long as they do not recognize this, things will not change.

'Allah(s.w.a) never changes the condition of a people until they change what is in their own selves' 

Holy Quran. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2016 by Abu Hadi

[S.M.H.A.]

Surah Al Nisa 

4:590 you who believe! obey Allah and the Messenger and those vested with authority from among you; then if you quarrel about any thing, refer it to Allah and the Messenger if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

4:60 Have you not observed those who think that they believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you? They desire to resort to the judgment of taghut (Satan), though they were commanded to deny him, and the Satan desires to lead them astray into afar-reaching error.

 

Tafsir Al-Mizan( (exegesis)BY ALLAMAH MUHAMMAD HUSSEIN TABATABAI

http://www.almizan.org/

Engl. Commentary

http://quran.al-islam.org/

[Muslim2010]

3 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

1. Case of isrealites was different. I have showed the prophetic hadith on that. Their every matter was handled by Prophets. And when saul was appointed as their king he started his work immediately. He practised the authority given to him. But we see Imam Ali a.s did not practice the same after Prophet s.a.w.w. He got the authority in reality after Hz. Uthman a.s and through shoora (consultation).

1. Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.422

Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure (lizard), you would  follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

The above tradition in Sahih al-Bukhari confirms, the Prophet stated that the history of the Children of Israel will be repeated for Muslim

2.  There are many striking similarities in this regard written in Quran including the similarities of the leaders and the similarities of the people.

 وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا .

"Surely Allah aforetime took a covenant from the Children of Israel and We appointed twelve leaders among them" (Quran 5:12) 

3.  The Messenger of Allah said: "My Ahlul-Bait are like the Gate of Repentance of the Children of Israel; whoever entered therein was forgiven."

Sunni References:

- Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haithami, v9, p168.

- al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani, Tradition #18

- Arba'in, by al-Nabahani, p216

4. Now the Quran also mentions the identification of those leaders as quoted by Quran in the following verse:

. وَقَارُونَ وَفِرْعَوْنَ وَهَامَانَ ۖ وَلَقَدْ جَاءَهُم مُّوسَىٰ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَاسْتَكْبَرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَمَا كَانُوا سَابِقِينَ

And [We destroyed] Qarun and Pharaoh and Haman. And Moses had already come to them with clear evidences, and they were arrogant in the land, but they were not outrunners [of Our punishment].  (29:39) 

The Pharoah and his companions were  along-with their followers were drowned in the sea and destroyed by Allah swt.

12- The Quran mentions here the names of 3 top leaders from the Children of Israel that include: Qarun, Pharoah and Haman who led these people.

The Pharoah was the ruler, Haman was his adviser and the Qarun was rich. This serves as reminder for the people in the Nation of Muhammad saww.

 

Edited August 21, 2016 by skamran110

[Muslim2010]

3 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

2. No. Not at all. Hadith saqlain and ghadir doesnt mention to obey or follow ahlebayt. For guidance prophet said you have Quran while for ahlebayt he said take care of them. Exactly what sahabah did. And ahlebayt is not limited to 12 Imams only. Ulil amr mean having authority practically not in theory.

Disagreed theses hadith are obvious for following the Ahl labaayt and Imams from Ahl labayat.

[S.M.H.A.]

Foundation:

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Shakir 97:4] The angels and Gibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,
[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
[Yusufali 97:4] Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:

Read Surah #97 Qadr, and see what you understand from Verse 97.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The night of qadr is in the month of Ramadan. See Baqarah: 185 and Dukhan: 1 to 3 wherein it is stated that the whole Quran was revealed in this night. The descension of the angels and the spirit is a regular occurrence since the creation of Allah till the day of resurrection, and the place of descent is a thoroughly purified heart (Ahzab: 33). Therefore there should be such a purified heart in existence at all times.

Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir said:

"Present this surah as a decisive argument for the continuity of the divine vicegerency on the earth."

http://quran.al-islam.org/

*****

Now, lets look at the First Surah which could be the Summary of what is to be Explained in the next 113 Surahs(Chapters).

Pickthal 1:1] In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[Pickthal 1:2] Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
[Pickthal 1:3] The Beneficent, the Merciful.
[Pickthal 1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment,
[Pickthal 1:5] Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
[Pickthal 1:6] Show us the straight path,
[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

All belongs to Allah(awj),This  is His Mulk.  He provides the Means for Everything, as we are dependent on HIM. Find me a clause where, it says, You and I have any Authority to do anything on our own in terms of choosing His Khalifa/Chaliph/Vicegerent or Defining HIS Religion as we wish? 

If you look at concepts you will understand the bigger picture. 

[S.M.H.A.]

5 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Can Those in authority (Ulil Amr) be the ones who were never in authority?

This is your misunderstanding, Its is not  Tribal/country constitution. There is no separation of Church/State here in Islam.

Authority- to you it,  means only Political Authority/Power ( so, what Post or Title is given to Religious Leader? Or in your theory, Political Leader trumps the Religious leader? )- what is this, a Political system or Religious system - Who is incharge of this Religion God or Man. You have been told to think in only Political/territory terms- like a secular government/leadership.  Because it was a Political Kingdom,( More later- if you review the basic material  provided above- you will know your understanding of this concept is wrong).

Khalifa Appointed By Allah(Awj) and announced by Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his progeny) was present(some accepted  it), like it is today(reflect on this).

[Muslim2010]

6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

3. 4.59 doesnt say rulers will only be chosen by Allah. It says ulil amr minkum (those in authority from you). In every era ulil amr will be different and it also include other officials of the state. The word ulil-amr is very comprehensive, which comprises all those persons who are in any way at the helm of the affairs of the Muslims-religious scholars, thinkers, political leaders, administrators, judges of law courts, tribal chiefs and the like.

Already replied in the light of other verses of quran like 2;247 and there is no verse confirming the sunni doctrine of people chosen caliph.

[Muslim2010]

6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

4. Quran gives the general principles regarding this. Who will be the caliph is not important. Rules and regulations are important.

true i await the verse of quran single verse to justify the concept of people chosen caliph which is still missing from the posts mentioned by yourself.

[Muslim2010]

6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

1Twelver concept of ulil amr or imamate is just a theory. Imam Jafar sadiq a.s that Imam is the one who can be seen and heard.

 قال الإمام الصادق (ع): (( مَن مَاتَ وَلَيسَ عَليهِ إمِامٌ حَيٌّ ظَاهِرٌ! مَاتَ مِيتَةً جَاهِليّة، قِيلَ: إمِامٌ حَي ؟
قَال: إمِامٌ حَيٌّ، إمِامٌ حَيّ ))

بحارالانوار ج23 ص92 مستدرك الوسائل ج18 ص177 الاختصاص269

Abu Abdillah (as) said: One who dies without having a living and Zahir (visible, i.e which can be seen) Imam dies the death of ignorance. The narrator asked: The living Imam? He replied: the living Imam, the living Imam.

Is the 12th Imam visibile? Surely not.

The quoted hadithn is self explanatory and provide the evidence that the imam is Zahir because he is  living imam. .

Imam Mahdi’s Resemblance with Hz Yusuf AS:

A.   Muhammad bin Hammam and Muhammad bin al-Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jumhoor narrated from al-Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jumhoor from his father from some of his companions from al-Mufadhdhal bin Umar that Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (s) had said:

A tradition that you perceive is better that ten that you narrate (without perceiving them). Every truth has a fact and every rightness has a light. By Allah we do not consider a Shiite as a jurisprudent until it is mistaken before him and he notices the mistake. Amirul Mo'mineen (s) has said from upon the minbar of Kufa: “There will be dark, blind and dim seditions awaiting you, from which no one will be saved except the (nooma).”

People asked: “What is the (nooma)?”He said: “It is one, who knows people but people do not know him.”

Then he added: “Know well that the world will not be empty of an authority (Hujjah) from Allah but Allah will make His people not see His authority because of their injustice, oppression and excessiveness in disobedience. If the world remains without an authority (from Allah) for an hour, it will sink with its people. The authority knows people but they do not know him. It is like Prophet Joseph (s), who knew people but they denied him. “Alas for (My) servants! There comes not to them a messenger but they mock at him.

( Biharul Anwar, vol.51, p.112, Ithbat al-Hudat, vol.3 p.532, Awalim al-Uloom, vol.3 p.526, Mo’jam Ahadeeth al-Imam al-Mahdi, vol.5 p.366),

B.  Imam Ali as mentioned the example of the prophet Joseph:

“Then he gives an example by mentioning Prophet Joseph (s). Imam al-Mahdi (s) is existent in substance and person but at his time he sees and he is not seen until-as Amirul Mo'mineen (s) says: “the promised time and determined appointment” when the call comes from the heaven: “This is the day that brings forth joy to the descendants of Ali and to the Shia of Ali.”

(Biharul Anwar, vol.51, p.112, Ithbat al-Hudat, vol.3 p.532, Awalim al-Uloom, vol.3 p.526, Mo’jam Ahadeeth al-Imam al-Mahdi, vol.5 p.366. )

C. Ali bin Ahmad narrated from Obaydillah bin Musa al-Alawi from Ahmad bin al-Husayn from Ahmad bin Hilal from Abdurrahman bin Abu Najran from Fudhala bin Ayyoob that Sadeer as-Sayrafi had said: I heard Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (s) saying:

“The master of this matter has a likeness to Prophet Joseph (s).”

I said: “As if you want to tell us about a disappearance or confusion!”

He said: “Why do this damned people, who are like the pigs, deny this matter (the disappearance of imam al-Mahdi)? The brothers of Prophet Joseph (s) were skilled, intelligent and sons of prophets. When they came to him, they talked and dealt with him and although they were his brothers they could not know him until he himself told them that he was their brother Joseph.

Then why do this umma deny that Allah may want to hide His authority from people for a certain time? Prophet Joseph (s) was the king of Egypt and there was between him and his father a distance of eighteen days-travel. If he wanted to inform his father of his place, he could do that. By Allah, Jacob (s) and his sons, after having heard the news of Joseph, traveled from their village to Egypt within nine days. So why do this umma deny that Allah may do for his authority (al-Mahdi) as He has done for Prophet Joseph(s)?

Perhaps the master of this matter (al-Qa'im), who has been wronged and whose right has been denied, goes and comes among people frequently, walks in their markets and sits on their mats but they do not know him until the will of Allah permits him to introduce himself to them as Allah has permitted Prophet Joseph (s) to introduce himself to his brothers by saying: (They said: Are you indeed Yousuf? He said: I am Yousuf).

The same was narrated by Muhammad bin Ya'qoob al-Kulayni from Ali bin Ibraheem bin Hashim from Muhammad bin al-Husayn from ibn Abu Najran from Fudhala bin Ayyoob from Sadeer as-Sayrafi from Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (s).

(Al-Kafi, vol.1 p.336, Kamal ad-Deen p.144, Ilal ash-Sharayi’ p.244, Dala’il al-Imama p.290,Taqreeb al-Ma’arif p.189, I’lam al-Wara p.405, al-Khara’ij wel Jara’ih, vol.1 p.934, Ithbat al-Hudat, vol.3 p.442.)

Brother are these not your comments for knowing about Imam Mahdi ie Imam of our time::

"Its very important to know that. I have seen narrations regarding his occultation, his coming, his actions, his lineage, his virtues etc but not able to find out exactly how he will leave this world and what will happen after him etc.

People know everything about Imams of previous time but unfortunately have little knowledge about Imam of their own time. I am trying to learn more about Imam Mahdi a.s, current Imam according to twelvers.

Brother, everyone has to recognize Imam of his time, not Imams of previous times. Therefore my concern is on current Imam. I will not be asked about previous Imams. If that belief of imamate is true and correct then I will be asked and called on qiyamah by the name of current Imam."

The above comments in the light of the quoted posts are  contradictory to each other, because when truth is denied contradictory statement stab are formed.

Edited August 21, 2016 by skamran110

[S.M.H.A.]

The Angels nor the  Prophets choose/assign/appoint the Khalifa/Caliph/Vicegerent/Representative for Allah(awj).

Khalifa/Caliph/Vicegerent/Representative :a person exercising delegated power on behalf of a sovereign or ruler.

Unless someone wants to commit major Shirk, assign partners in action, Lordship, Sovereignty , etc of Allah(awj). 

Consider that, Human were Delegated power to independently run HIS MULK. and assign Lords, choose guardians. Independent of Allah(awj)

All we will get is some fancy, foot work, meaning/word play etc...

[Muslim2010]

6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

No brother. All such ahadith have nothing to do with twelver shia concept of imamate. Thats why I didnt share any of such hadith in this thread.

Read carefully what these ahadith say. Dont just llok at the number twelve.

"The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the Twelve men."

Is islam is conducting well today? Are the affairs of muslim well today? Since the 1st to 12th Imam.

"Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been Twelve Caliphs."

Is Islam in the successful and in the dominant state since 1st to 12th Imam?

"The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraish."

The hadith of the prophet about 12 caliphs / amirts//leaders are mu[Edited Out]er  and present in both sunnis and shias. yes the sunnis and their ulemas are confused to accept or reject these hadiths but shia are confident to accept that these narrations provide the clear evidence that these mean 12 caliphs / leaders / imams chosen by Allah swt from the progeny of the prophet like 12 leaders were chosen in the children of isreal.

Edited August 21, 2016 by skamran110

[Muslim2010]

7 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Ulil amr is every person who has authority over affairs of people. After Prophet s.a.w.w Muhajirun and ansar gave that authority to Hz. Abu Bakr r.a, then to Umar r.a, then to uthman r.a, then to Ali a.s, then to Hassan a.s. This was the ned of rightly guided caliphate. After that cruel rulers came starting from Muawiya bin Abu Sufiyan.

Your rejection of first three caliphs is based on absense of hadith on this matter (but this wasnt the belief of muhajirun and ansar including ahlebayt), while my rejection of divine imamate is based on an authentic narration from Imam Jafar Sadiq a.s (same approach was followed by almost all members of ahlebayt, see book Firaq ul Shia of Naubakhti).

“Siyar A’laam un-Nubulaa” at page 259 Dhahabi narrated:

كتب إلي عبد المنعم بن يحيى الزهري، وطائفة قالوا: أنبأنا داود بن أحمد، أنبأنا محمد بن عمر القاضي، أنبأنا عبد الصمد بن علي، أنبأنا أبو الحسن الدارقطني، حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن إسماعيل الادمي، حدثنا محمد بن الحسين الحنيني، حدثنا مخلد بن أبي قريش الطحان، حدثنا عبد الجبار بن العباس الهمداني، أن جعفر بن محمد أتاهم وهم يريدون أن يرتحلوا من المدينة، فقال: ” إنكم إن شاء الله من صالحي أهل مصركم، فأبلغوهم عني: من زعم أني إمام معصوم مفترض الطاعة، فأنا منه برئ، ومن زعم أني أبرأ من أبي بكر وعمر، فأنا منه برئ “.

From Abdul Jabar ibn Al-Abbas al-Hamadani: ”Jafar as-Sadiq came to them when they were leaving Madinah and told them: You are inshallah from amongst the best of people from your country (or from your Egypt)  So report to them from me: He who claims that I’m an infallible imam who must be obeyed, I disassociate myself from him and he who claims that I disassociate myself from Abu Bakr and Umar, I disassociate myself from him.”

W.salam

As per the verse 4:59 we are referring the matter to the prophet saww. we have provided the evidence by hadith that 12 imams are Ulil Amr mentioned by name. 

However the hadith mentioning the names of 3 caliphs as Ulil Amr has not been posted so in the light of discussion we confidently reject the sunni claim of the people chosen caliphs  as Ulil Amr. The sunni claim is based on assumption of scholars without  any verse of quran to justify people chosen caliph and there is no hadith mentioning the 3 caliphs as Ulil Amr. 

Wasalam

Edited August 21, 2016 by skamran110

[Fahad Sani]

On 8/21/2016 at 6:01 PM, Abu Hadi said:

This is where you are wrong, with all due respect, Br. Fahad. 

If you know Arabic, the term 'Ul Al Amr' means, 'The Possessors of Authority'. 

That is the closest translation in English. 

The term, as it is used in Quran, doesn't mean or imply that the Possessor needs to be 'Dhahr' or exercise the authority in the public sphere. This is conjecture that some scholars have followed. It does not come from Quran.

Ul Al Amr, as it is understood by most Islamic Scholars who have done a deep study on this subject, is something that is given by Allah(s.w.a) to certain individuals. They have it, irrespective if it is 'Dhahr', apparent, as it was with some such as Imam Ali(a.s) for a certain time or Imam Hassan(a.s) for a certain time, or it is 'Batin', hidden from the general population. But even though it was hidden from the general population, it was still 'Dhahr' or apparent to their followers, i.e. those who followed the Quran and obeyed them. 

Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) said of Hassan and Hussain(a.s), 'Imamain, Qaim wa Qaid'. He(p.b.u.h) said, 'Hassan and Husain are two Imams, whether they are standing or sitting'. In the Arabic language, this phrase is clear and means, 'They are two Imams, whether they exercise their Imamate amoung the people (Qaim) or don't (Qaid). At the time this hadith was said, Imam Hassan and Imam Husain were little children, so obviously they had no authority of the kind you are talking about. 

The fact that the general population of Muslims is was deprived of the Imamate of the Just Imams(a.s), Imam Husain(a.s) and currently to Imam Mehdi(a.f.s) is precisely because of attitudes such as the one you are stating. 

It is because they are going against Quran, Hadith Thaqalain, Ghadeer, and many other proofs of the Imamate of Twelve Imams from Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) and so they are being deprived by Allah(s.w.a) of Just Leadership. And because they are being deprived of this Just Leadership, we see the Ummah in the state that it is in, with Muslim killing each other, bombing each other, doing takfir on each other, etc, etc, to states of misery that we are unable to calculate. 

If the Ummah, as a whole, chooses to recognize this fact, things will begin to change. As long as they do not recognize this, things will not change.

'Allah(s.w.a) never changes the condition of a people until they change what is in their own selves' 

Holy Quran. 

 

Brother, concept of Imamate and caliphate is different in terms of Quran and ahadith. Ibrahim a.s was made Imam but he was not the caliph/ruler of his time. He did not got power or authoirty like Dawood a.s and Suleman a.s got. They were caliphs/ulil amr/rulers plus Imams as per prayer of Ibrahim a.s.

The correct interpretation is that the obedience of the ruler (Ulil Amr) is conditional and is tied with his obedience to Allah and his Prophet, because the ruler is not infallible, and  if the believers disagree with the ones in authority then the judge between them is the Quran and the Sunnah.

Same is the Imam Ali a.s understanding for this verse as it is mentioned in Letter #53.

“Maalik! You must never forget that if you are a ruler over them than the caliph is the ruler over you and Allah is the Supreme Lord over the caliph. And the reality is that He has appointed you as the governor and tested you through the responsibility of this rulership over them.”

And then He says:

وَارْدُدْ إِلَى الله وَرَسُولِهِ مَا يُضْلِعُكَ مِنَ الْخُطُوبِ، وَيَشْتَبِهُ عَلَيْكَ مِنَ الاْمُورِ، فَقَدْ قَالَ اللهُ سبحانه لِقَوْم أَحَبَّ إِرْشَادَهُمْ: (يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الاْمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْء فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللهِ وَالرَّسُولِ)، فَالرَّدُّ إِلَى اللهِ: الاْخْذُ بِمُحْكَمِ كِتَابِهِ، وَالرَّدُّ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ: الاْخْذُ بِسُنَّتِهِ الْجَامِعةِ غَيْرِ الْمُفَرِّقَةِ

“When you are faced with problems which you cannot solve or with a difficult situation from which you cannot escape or when uncertain and doubtful circumstances confuse and perplex you, then turn to Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) because Allah has thus ordered those whom He wants to guide: “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger” The way to turn to Allah is to act diligently according to the clear and explicit orders given in His Holy Book and to the turn to the Holy Prophet (s) means to follow those of his Sunnah about which there is no doubt and ambiguity and which have been generally accepted to be correctly recorded.” (Nahjul Balagha, Letter #53)

So Ali a.s advices to Maalik, who was appointed in authority over Egypt, that if he faces any problem or difficulty then he needs to turn to Allah and Prophet s.a.w.w, because Allah mentioned in Quran the verse (4:59), and its later part commands to refer Allah and his Prophet during disagreement. It can be deduced from this letter of Ali a.s that, It is appropriate to believe that Ali a.s considered Maalik who was appointed in authority over Egypt as Ulil Amr (those in authority), that is why He a.s directed the one placed in authority over Egypt (Maalik) to the verse (4:59) which is about, what is to be done when their appears a dispute between Ulil Amr and Believers. Ali could have said if you face any problem refer to divinely appointed Imams or refer me, but He a.s didn’t say anything as such because He understood Quran the same as Ahlesunnah does. If Ali a.s considered himself to be a divinely appointed Imam whose Job is to guide people and solve issues, then He a.s would have said to consult him but He didn’t even hint towards doing so, rather he said what is in line with the manhaj of Ahlesunnah.

Furthermore, no where in the entire nahjul balagha Imam Ali a.s said that he is divinly appointed Imam at ghadir or something similiar. Let alone consider sermon #1. Where Imam Ali a.s had mentioned all fundamental beliefs and principles of Islam but didnt say anything regarding Divine Imamate or about wilayah/authority of ahlebayt. Same is the case with last will of Imam Ali a.s. All sermons and letters and wills of Imam are free from concept of divine Imamate, ghadir and other related events which are used by twelvers to proove their belief of divine Imamate.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-1-praise-due-Allah-whose-worth-cannot-be-described

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by Fahad Sani