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Ibn Al-Shahid

How do we treat Israelis?

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بسمه تعالى وتقدس

السلام عليكم

While watching the Jiu-Jitsu segment of the Olympics Israel vs Egypt came up. After the Egyptian participant lost, he did not shake hands with the Israeli, even though the Israeli participant chased him around a bit with his hand out.

Was that the right choice?

How about in university or work? What if one of the people there happens to be Israeli? How should we act around them?

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27 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

بسمه تعالى وتقدس

السلام عليكم

While watching the Jiu-Jitsu segment of the Olympics Israel vs Egypt came up. After the Egyptian participant lost, he did not shake hands with the Israeli, even though the Israeli participant chased him around a bit with his hand out.

Was that the right choice?

How about in university or work? What if one of the people there happens to be Israeli? How should we act around them?

@Ibn Al-Shahid I don't think so, that was actually quite rude. I had I been in that situation, I would have said "No, thanks" and "Good game" and left it at that.

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Hello,

13 minutes ago, baradar_jackson said:

He should not have competed with the Israeli at all. He should have forfeited the match. By losing and not shaking hands, it looks like he's petty. And if he had won and not shaken hands, he would have been a bad sportsman. 

 

The "Israeli" running after him to shake his hand reflects too well on that disease of a "country," and we all know how much they seek positive press in this day and age when almost everyone knows the truth about them.

 

This is why any sensible Muslim would simply: forfeit the match. It is the only option that preserves ones personal honor while also preventing them from making it into positive PR.

This "diseased" country is the most stable, most productive, most innovative and most democratic country in the Middle East.  It's citizens, including minorities, enjoy a better quality of life than all other Middle East countries.

I think your words, when compared with facts and reality, reveal a jealous little man.

All the Best,

David

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58 minutes ago, baradar_jackson said:

He should not have competed with the Israeli at all. He should have forfeited the match. By losing and not shaking hands, it looks like he's petty. And if he had won and not shaken hands, he would have been a bad sportsman. 

 

The "Israeli" running after him to shake his hand reflects too well on that disease of a "country," and we all know how much they seek positive press in this day and age when almost everyone knows the truth about them.

 

This is why any sensible Muslim would simply: forfeit the match. It is the only option that preserves ones personal honor while also preventing them from making it into positive PR.

He should have competed.  He should have won.  And he should have shaken hands.  

Do you realize how childish it is to not shake hands?  Do you realize how childish it is to forfeit a match because of something completely out of control of that athlete?  Do you think it would have helped public opinion of Muslims to show us as getting along with Jews?  Instead any forfeiture or refusal to shake hands like this plays into the propaganda of the idea that Muslims and Jews will never get along, and all Muslims just want to kill all the Jews, which is why there can never be a peace between the Jews and Palestinians, so Israel must be allowed to keep them fenced out.

35 minutes ago, David66 said:

Hello,

This "diseased" country is the most stable, most productive, most innovative and most democratic country in the Middle East.  It's citizens, including minorities, enjoy a better quality of life than all other Middle East countries.

I think your words, when compared with facts and reality, reveal a jealous little man.

All the Best,

David

This!  There is absolutely nothing wrong with disliking someone, or even hating them, for what they do/believe.  But I think credit needs to be given where credit is due.  The Israelis have beaten the combined Arab armies several times.  That's got to leave a blow in your psyche.  

Now there's no doubt that Israel benefits greatly from a good relationship with the US, financially, militarily, technologocially, etc.  

I can't say I support the policies of Israel, or their actions in the treatment of Palestinians.  But if the neighboring Arabs had half the brains the Israelis had, Palestine wouldn't still be shrinking by the day.

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Wow. That happened? I have other issues with the Olympics, but nobody forces a nation to go. If you decide to go, there are rules of sportsmanship. One of them is often honoring your competitor in some way. (If handshaking itself is problematic that should be discussed by organizers well before the Games.) If you have so much political or inter-religious baggage that it interferes with the rules of sportsmanship, maybe you or your whole nation should just stay home and boycott. That would certainly send a message. It sort of defeats the purpose to drag that stuff into what is supposed to be a peaceful competition between nations,IMHO.

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Hello,

27 minutes ago, coldcow said:

He should have competed.  He should have won.  And he should have shaken hands.  

Do you realize how childish it is to not shake hands?  Do you realize how childish it is to forfeit a match because of something completely out of control of that athlete?  Do you think it would have helped public opinion of Muslims to show us as getting along with Jews?  Instead any forfeiture or refusal to shake hands like this plays into the propaganda of the idea that Muslims and Jews will never get along, and all Muslims just want to kill all the Jews, which is why there can never be a peace between the Jews and Palestinians, so Israel must be allowed to keep them fenced out.

This!  There is absolutely nothing wrong with disliking someone, or even hating them, for what they do/believe.  But I think credit needs to be given where credit is due.  The Israelis have beaten the combined Arab armies several times.  That's got to leave a blow in your psyche.  

Now there's no doubt that Israel benefits greatly from a good relationship with the US, financially, militarily, technologocially, etc.  

I can't say I support the policies of Israel, or their actions in the treatment of Palestinians.  But if the neighboring Arabs had half the brains the Israelis had, Palestine wouldn't still be shrinking by the day.

"Palestinians" receive more financial aid per capita than any other group in the World.  Where does all this money go?

All the Best,

David

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8 minutes ago, David66 said:

Hello,

"Palestinians" receive more financial aid per capita than any other group in the World.  Where does all this money go?

All the Best,

David

Good question.  I honestly don't know the answer.  I originally wrote that Arabs tend to squander the benefits they get from the US, but I erased it.  

I suspect there's an element of corruption going on, but I also suspect they're incredibly limited in their ability to do what they want and build what they want when/where they want.  And if you build a house somewhere without official Israeli permission, it'll get bulldozed.  Then infrastructure tends to get bombed/shot at periodically, and you have to repair that.  Do you know where it goes?  Or was that a rhetorical question?

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On 8/14/2016 at 8:30 PM, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

How about in university or work? What if one of the people there happens to be Israeli? How should we act around them?

Just act normal around them? See them as human beings trying to live their lives just like you. You can't pour blame and hate some random Israeli you encounter for things that are out of their hands. Imagine if someone thought the same about Muslims like you are thinking about Israelis? We can't constantly be living in constant fear and paranoia with each other. We have to move on.

As I have mentioned before my Applied Mathematics Professor at my University is an Israeli. I love going to his lectures and also asking him for help and clarification every now and then. His a nice friendly guy and with an outgoing attitude. He doesn't at all talk about Politics or the Middle East and I don't either to him. He knows I am Iranian and his aware that I know his from Israel. Big deal? Its not.

Why you wanting to dehumanise Israelis? Its pointless. 

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3 hours ago, baradar_jackson said:

He should not have competed with the Israeli at all. He should have forfeited the match. By losing and not shaking hands, it looks like he's petty. And if he had won and not shaken hands, he would have been a bad sportsman. 

 

The "Israeli" running after him to shake his hand reflects too well on that disease of a "country," and we all know how much they seek positive press in this day and age when almost everyone knows the truth about them.

 

This is why any sensible Muslim would simply: forfeit the match. It is the only option that preserves ones personal honor while also preventing them from making it into positive PR.

You are a racist. Ever noticed that?

Aren't Israelis human beings as well? What if someone said that about Muslims or Arabs? You would have definitely been up in arms. 

When ever you go to some international event like the Olympics there rules and a code of conduct you have to follow. You can't have everything your own way. Its better if these athletes don't compete at all in the first place if they want things their own way. 

 

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3 hours ago, coldcow said:

He should have competed.  He should have won.  And he should have shaken hands.  

Do you realize how childish it is to not shake hands?  Do you realize how childish it is to forfeit a match because of something completely out of control of that athlete?  Do you think it would have helped public opinion of Muslims to show us as getting along with Jews?  Instead any forfeiture or refusal to shake hands like this plays into the propaganda of the idea that Muslims and Jews will never get along, and all Muslims just want to kill all the Jews, which is why there can never be a peace between the Jews and Palestinians, so Israel must be allowed to keep them fenced out.

This!  There is absolutely nothing wrong with disliking someone, or even hating them, for what they do/believe.  But I think credit needs to be given where credit is due.  The Israelis have beaten the combined Arab armies several times.  That's got to leave a blow in your psyche.  

Now there's no doubt that Israel benefits greatly from a good relationship with the US, financially, militarily, technologocially, etc.  

I can't say I support the policies of Israel, or their actions in the treatment of Palestinians.  But if the neighboring Arabs had half the brains the Israelis had, Palestine wouldn't still be shrinking by the day.

 

Firstly, bro, nobody is talking about relations between Muslims and Jews. Who said anything about that?

 

Is this about "refusing to compete with a Jew?"

 

No.

 

Don't make the discussion about something it's not.

 

This is about competing against someone wearing a certain flag and representing a certain so-called nation. The Olympics are a type of soft diplomacy. By competing with another nation you are acknowledging that nation's existence. This is simple logic. This is why it is unacceptable to compete with Israel. It is a usurped nation built on the backs of an imprisoned people. This is current, not past. This isn't all in the past. This is what is going on now.

 

Secondly, I understand you're repping Dixie and all that. To be honest it annoys the heck out of me, but I'm not going to pry into other people's upbringings. However, I implore you to look past the prism through which you currently think.

 

The idea that Israel took on all the Arabs and won every time... This is a popular idea, but how correct is it? Let's assess!

 

Firstly, regarding 1948. The Nakba and all that. I don't think stabbing pregnant women in the gut really takes all that much military prowess or strategic genius; it just takes brutality. And regarding the 1973 war, Egypt betrayed Syria, and although Syria was making some good advances, Israel - like a rabid dog - threatened to use nuclear weapons. This was a cause for alarm for the USSR which was the primary source of arms for Syria, and basically this situation forced an end to the conflict.

 

And of course we all darn well know what happened in 2000 and 2006. We know it very well. Complete and utter defeat.

 

So the image of Israel as a nation of superhumans who defy numbers and odds to overcome their bestial Arab enemy... is an image mostly based on what? Based on the 1967 war.

 

By the way, before we go any further:

 

It was not, nor has it ever been, Israel vs. all the Arabs. Today, Syria more or less stands along amongst the Arab nations against Israel. Back then, it was Syria and Egypt. The rest of them sat back and got their fill of shawarma and hookah smoke. Saddam (la) launched a few scuds for show. But Syria and Egypt were doing the fighting. And although they are much larger countries than "Israel," the populace was not nearly as militarized. In other words, in terms of manpower, there was no significant advantage of the Arabs over the Israelis.

 

And yes, part of this is due to the incompetence of Arab leaders. But since when did their incompetence justify a criminal lunatic nation and its criminal lunatic machinations?

 

Back to the 1967 war. The reason why it was a sweeping success for Israel, was because they destroyed all of Egypt's air force while their planes were grounded. If you want stories of great pilots in action during fierce dogfights, go read up on Shahid Abbas Doran. Go read up on how he was up against 9 MiGs, shot one down and out-manuevered the rest until they had to go back home for fuel. All the Israelis did was catch the Egyptians by surprise. And yes, part of this was due to the Egyptians' incompetence. Nobody has ever denied this. Nasser made some very costly strategic mistakes. Egypt had a very good opportunity to deal with this problem and failed to do so. Nobody will deny that.

 

Now, what about today. Firstly, Israel is scared out of their wits at the prospect of another war in Lebanon. Even though they are junkies and are absolutely dependant on their next "fix" of war, they really really don't want to be humiliated again as they were ten years ago.

 

So Gaza is their war zone of choice. Gaza, a place which is cut off from the world. A place in which all the tunnels which were bringing in artillery rockets (not to mention medicine and such) have been effectively closed off. And yet, they enter Gaza without even stating a military objective!!! Any military man will tell you, when an army starts an operation, it has to have a clear objective. But because the IDF has failed so many times at meeting its objectives ("destroy Hamas," "destroy this," "destroy that"), they don't even do that anymore. They just go in, cause as much destruction as possible, and pull out. Like a bunch of dirty cowards.

 

So, to summarize, you are right that there is a reason behind Israel's "success" and the relative failure of Arabs. The reasons are threefold:

 

1) Absolute disregard for human life, human ethics, or even animal ethics for that matter

2) Unflinching, unwavering, unconditional support from the world's most powerful governments, on a massive material and spiritual scale

3) Incompetence of Arab leaders

 

None of these reasons justify anything they do. This is something people of reason understand. Are you going to join the ranks of the people of reason or do you prefer to repeat a baseless slogan they repeat like a mantra?

 

3 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Wow. That happened? I have other issues with the Olympics, but nobody forces a nation to go. If you decide to go, there are rules of sportsmanship. One of them is often honoring your competitor in some way. (If handshaking itself is problematic that should be discussed by organizers well before the Games.) If you have so much political or inter-religious baggage that it interferes with the rules of sportsmanship, maybe you or your whole nation should just stay home and boycott. That would certainly send a message. It sort of defeats the purpose to drag that stuff into what is supposed to be a peaceful competition between nations,IMHO.

 

Olympics is all peace and love, yeah right. It is soft diplomacy. And diplomacy is soft war. Which means the olympics is soft war. There is a reason why when you turn on NBC, when they show the medal rankings, they will show in order of golds OR in total medals, depending on which one USA is #1 in. (At the moment it doesn't make a difference because they are leading in both, but trust me I have seen NBC do this)

 

Think back to the 98 world cup. Which you don't remember because this is something only we know. When the Iranian team was set to play the USA, French national TV aired the idiotic movie "Not without my Daughter." Then Iran went and knocked the socks off of the US national team. That was the only game Iran ever won in a World Cup finals, and thank God for that. It was an absolute necessity. Precisely because: international sporting competitions are where countries seek to advance their wider goals.

 

Moreover, there is no sense in boycotting the whole event just because one crappy little country wants to participate in them. They're the disease, not us. Boycotting the whole event is saying: they deserve to be there, I do not. Boycotting THEM is saying: I deserve to be here, they do not.

 

And you make a good point, about peaceful competition between nations. You have to be a "nation" to engage in such competition. No? We're not talking about a nation here.

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35 minutes ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

Firstly, bro, nobody is talking about relations between Muslims and Jews. Who said anything about that?

Is this about "refusing to compete with a Jew?"

No.

Don't make the discussion about something it's not.

This is about competing against someone wearing a certain flag and representing a certain so-called nation. The Olympics are a type of soft diplomacy. By competing with another nation you are acknowledging that nation's existence. This is simple logic. This is why it is unacceptable to compete with Israel. It is a usurped nation built on the backs of an imprisoned people. This is current, not past. This isn't all in the past. This is what is going on now.

And you make a good point, about peaceful competition between nations. You have to be a "nation" to engage in such competition. No? We're not talking about a nation here.

Stop it. Israel are very much more of a nation than most of those Arab countries out there. Israel at least has minority rights for Arabs, Armenians, Circassians and Druze to be clear who hold Israeli Citizenship unlike most other of those other countries in the region.

Majority of Jews support Israel regardless of whatever you are saying. Only some fringe groups like the Neturei Karta are Anti-Israel who don't even represent 1%.

Imagine in some parallel universe scenario and if the roles changed, say if the Israelis were Muslims and the Palestinians were Jews, Christians or any religion for that matter. You wouldn't have said a damn thing. But since Israelis are mostly Jews, you have problem with them in every kind of way. Just be a little honest here. 

There is no need to dehumanise Israeli people, the same way people dehumanise Muslims. When you do that, you don't seem that bright. 

We are aware that you don't like Jews and Israelis. Just stop it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

بسمه تعالى وتقدس

السلام عليكم

While watching the Jiu-Jitsu segment of the Olympics Israel vs Egypt came up. After the Egyptian participant lost, he did not shake hands with the Israeli, even though the Israeli participant chased him around a bit with his hand out.

Was that the right choice?

How about in university or work? What if one of the people there happens to be Israeli? How should we act around them?

Salam

Just a thought, do you think his  main intention not to shake hands was mainly to oppose his own Egyptian government's stance with Israel?

There are lots of Egyptians against their own gov for friendly ties with Israel and other reasons and maybe the olympics was a good international ground to show their opposition to their own gov on national TV?

Regardless of it being the right or wrong thing to do. 

Probably a brotherhood guy ?

Edited by certainclarity

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5 hours ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

Firstly, bro, nobody is talking about relations between Muslims and Jews. Who said anything about that?

Is this about "refusing to compete with a Jew?"

No.

Don't make the discussion about something it's not.

This is about competing against someone wearing a certain flag and representing a certain so-called nation. The Olympics are a type of soft diplomacy. By competing with another nation you are acknowledging that nation's existence. This is simple logic. This is why it is unacceptable to compete with Israel. It is a usurped nation built on the backs of an imprisoned people. This is current, not past. This isn't all in the past. This is what is going on now.

Secondly, I understand you're repping Dixie and all that. To be honest it annoys the heck out of me, but I'm not going to pry into other people's upbringings. However, I implore you to look past the prism through which you currently think.

The idea that Israel took on all the Arabs and won every time... This is a popular idea, but how correct is it? Let's assess!

Your post is too long for me to address everything right now.  But I'll just address this.

Israel is a Jewish nation.  It is an internationally recognized nation.  By pretending it's not a nation, you look like a child.  Secondly, regardless of if you think this guy not shaking hands decided not to shake his hands because he was an Israeli, because he was a Zionist, or because he was a Jew, it doesn't matter.  It will be viewed as "Muslim vs Jew."  And again, it will be used to prove that Israeli is surrounded by enemies and needs protection (walls) and needs buffer land in case of attack (Golan Heights).  

The Olympics are supposed to be a place where politics is put aside, and people just compete.  

In summary, the fighter was an idiot that represented Muslims poorly and did nothing to help Palestine.

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7 hours ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

 

 

 

This is about competing against someone wearing a certain flag and representing a certain so-called nation. The Olympics are a type of soft diplomacy. By competing with another nation you are acknowledging that nation's existence. This is simple logic. This is why it is unacceptable to compete with Israel. It is a usurped nation built on the backs of an imprisoned people. This is current, not past. This isn't all in the past. This is what is going on now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Olympics is all peace and love, yeah right. It is soft diplomacy. And diplomacy is soft war. Which means the olympics is soft war. 

 

Moreover, there is no sense in boycotting the whole event just because one crappy little country wants to participate in them. They're the disease, not us. Boycotting the whole event is saying: they deserve to be there, I do not. Boycotting THEM is saying: I deserve to be here, they do not.

 

And you make a good point, about peaceful competition between nations. You have to be a "nation" to engage in such competition. No? We're not talking about a nation here.

Actually the Olympics have turned into a rather " hard" war on the poor, the environment, and ,very often, the economies of some of the nations that desire to host it, so I would never say they are all about " peace and love" . Not even watching them.

However, the organization gets to decide what is a " nation" and what isn't and by competing within that you are agreeing to their definitions. It doesn't have anything to do with " deserving". You are in no position to define " nationhood" within this context. You can refuse to participate or you can challenge the concept of " nationhood" in the discussions between Olympics with the powers that be and I think that would be a great discussion.( Some native nations have wanted to send teams independently of the colonial power now sitting on top of them)

I think you will have a difficult time convincing the IOC that Israel is not a nation. Plus, if you are upset about Israel, why are you shaking America's athletes' hands? I watched the videos of the incident and it is being spun as one of poor sportsmanship. I agree with you...it looks petty.

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11 hours ago, coldcow said:

Do you realize how childish it is to not shake hands?  Do you realize how childish it is to forfeit a match because of something completely out of control of that athlete?  

Salam Coldcow,

Aye. Maybe it's a cultural thing though? In the USA, we teach children to be good sports regardless of if they win or lose, and a handshake at the end of a game shows good sportsmanship. This man however is behaving more childish than American children who are taught to have good sportsmanship.

And, we have Iranian-American children in the USA too. If an American child plays against an Iranian-American child, even though some Iranians in Iran ignorantly yell "Death to America" the American child is still expected to shake hands with the Iranian American and have good sportsmanship. Politics do not belong in sports.

Quote

Do you think it would have helped public opinion of Muslims to show us as getting along with Jews?

Yes. Many Americans believe that Muslims hate Jews, and the bad sportsmanship just promotes this belief.

Quote

Instead any forfeiture or refusal to shake hands like this plays into the propaganda of the idea that Muslims and Jews will never get along, and all Muslims just want to kill all the Jews, which is why there can never be a peace between the Jews and Palestinians, so Israel must be allowed to keep them fenced out.

How Muslims treat Jews is actually helping Trump and other Americans who want Muslims out of the USA. It's very frustrating to me and to other Americans who are verbally (not physically) fighting to protect the rights of Muslims to live and immigrate to the USA, and Muslims who refuse to be good sports to Jewish people are not helping at all. People like Mr. and Mrs. Khan (the parents of the dead American soldier who spoke against Trump's bigotry) are helping, but bad sportsmanship by Muslims in the worldwide games doesn't.

Quote

This!  There is absolutely nothing wrong with disliking someone, or even hating them, for what they do/believe.

I disagree, because Jesus commands to love enemies. Hatred is not what God created humans to do.

Quote

 But I think credit needs to be given where credit is due.  The Israelis have beaten the combined Arab armies several times.  That's got to leave a blow in your psyche.  

Aye. True.

Quote

Now there's no doubt that Israel benefits greatly from a good relationship with the US, financially, militarily, technologocially, etc.

And, the USA benefits greatly from the inventions Israeli scientists invent. It's no secret that Israeli scientists are among the best in the world, and the USA knows that. God has gifted many Jewish people with amazing mental abilities.

Quote

I can't say I support the policies of Israel, or their actions in the treatment of Palestinians.  

I personally believe that Israel needs to obey their King: Jesus (Yeshua) and love the Palestinians, and Palestinians need to love the Israelis. However, most Israelis don't know Yeshua yet. By God's grace, may their eyes be opened soon!

Quote

But if the neighboring Arabs had half the brains the Israelis had, Palestine wouldn't still be shrinking by the day.

Arabs do have the brains Israelis do, but when brains are crowded by hatred, that leaves little room for creativity and understanding in how to make the world a better place. Most Israelis spend more energy in advancing in their careers than they do in hating Arabs. Hating just destroys, it doesn't make anybody smarter.

Peace and God bless you

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12 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Wow. That happened? I have other issues with the Olympics, but nobody forces a nation to go. If you decide to go, there are rules of sportsmanship.

Salam LefCostMom,

Aye. Sportsmanship is what enables the Olympics to function without erupting into hostile fights.

Quote

One of them is often honoring your competitor in some way. (If handshaking itself is problematic that should be discussed by organizers well before the Games.) If you have so much political or inter-religious baggage that it interferes with the rules of sportsmanship, maybe you or your whole nation should just stay home and boycott.

Agreed.

Quote

That would certainly send a message.

It sends a message to some cultures that the nation doesn't know how to get along well on a worldwide scale. I mean, the USA and Germany were enemies; they got over it. The USA and Russia were enemies and still are to a certain extent, but we know how to be good sports to each other even though there's still a power struggle going on between our countries.

Imagine if an American refused to shake a Russian's hand because he/she doesn't like Russians. That person would be booed both here in the USA and in Russia, because that's just completely unacceptable. His/her career would be over.

Quote

It sort of defeats the purpose to drag that stuff into what is supposed to be a peaceful competition between nations,IMHO.

100% agreed. And frankly, that's why this Iranian lady was in trouble for standing up for women's rights in Iran at the Olympics. Why? because the Olympics is not supposed to be political, but rather a place for people around the world to represent their nations and complete. I admire her and understand that her heart is in the right place, but the Olympics are to be free from politics, not political platforms. I don't think she understood that and the harm it could bring if politics enters the Olympic realm.

 

Peace and God bless you

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Well, the Olympics is plenty political in many ways. The protests during the pre-Olympic torch carry was only one example. Police having to beat the protestors out of the way of the runner, etc.  Protesting the Olympics/your own government is fine. However, I was speaking of the athletes themselves not conforming to rules of sportsmanship. Spectators protesting their own government, or anything,  inside the stadium  is a grayer area for me. However, I agree it gets messy and I understand why the IOC would rather keep it outside.

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2 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Actually the Olympics have turned into a rather " hard" war on the poor, the environment, and ,very often, the economies of some of the nations that desire to host it, so I would never say they are all about " peace and love" . Not even watching them.

However, the organization gets to decide what is a " nation" and what isn't and by competing within that you are agreeing to their definitions. It doesn't have anything to do with " deserving". You are in no position to define " nationhood" within this context. You can refuse to participate or you can challenge the concept of " nationhood" in the discussions between Olympics with the powers that be and I think that would be a great discussion.( Some native nations have wanted to send teams independently of the colonial power now sitting on top of them)

I think you will have a difficult time convincing the IOC that Israel is not a nation. Plus, if you are upset about Israel, why are you shaking America's athletes' hands? I watched the videos of the incident and it is being spun as one of poor sportsmanship. I agree with you...it looks petty.

 

It has become a "hard" war on the poor because certain governments are too stupid to know what's good for them and pour a bunch of resources into nonsense. It can't be helped. I personally wouldn't mind if the olympics were only held in rich "first world" countries to avoid this issue of destroying favelas to build olympic villages. But you can't help the idiocy of governments who want to pretend to project strength through such means.

 

Secondly, you have just decided for yourself that by agreeing to compete in the Olympics you are accepting the IOC's definition of nations. Just because you have decided this, does not make it so. As far as I know, any team or athlete has the right to forfeit any match as they please. So you're just inventing rules on your own. If an athlete refuses to compete to the crappy little wannabe country, he is not only acting within his own moral principles but within his right as an olympian.

 

The difference between the USA and Israel is quite simple and easily explainable for those who are of sound mind. Some people say they are on equal footing, because the USA is built on usurped land, and Israel was built on usurped land, and so on. But there are certain discrepancies...

 

1) Palestinians outnumber "Israelis." If you count the refugees to Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan, they outnumber the "Israelis" by a very large number. Palestine is still very much a "nation." Their population has not been wiped out by disease or whatever.

 

2) There are people alive today, who actually remember the Nakba. This bloody founding of this country is not something just in the dusty old books but something in the collective memories of the people who suffered because of it.

 

3) Someone once told me: "OK, so now Israel is a thing. We can't deny it. It's not their fault for what their previous generations did." This excuse applies to Muricans, sure, but it does not apply to Israelis. They are still engaging in the most barbaric of behaviors, and as a small but highly militaristic state, all of the population is complicit. They have conscription of 4 years for men and even 3 years for women; their entire territory is smaller than the province of Tehran (I haven't checked this, I'm just assuming), there is no way for someone to just "lay low" and avoid partaking in their war crimes.

 

 

Because of these reasons, there is a big difference between the USA and Israel. All of those wannabe impartials who say "well Israel isn't entirely right but what you say is wrong, too"... they're gonna look mad stupid when Israel falls apart. Remember when Mandela died and all the governments that propped up the apartheid government tripped over themselves writing elegies and offering condolences? It's quite a joke; they think they can get away with whatever they want. I would much rather have the foresight to see the problem before it becomes a historically validated undisputed problem.

Edited by baradar_jackson

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1 hour ago, Christianlady said:

Salam LefCostMom,

Aye. Sportsmanship is what enables the Olympics to function without erupting into hostile fights.

Agreed.

It sends a message to some cultures that the nation doesn't know how to get along well on a worldwide scale. I mean, the USA and Germany were enemies; they got over it. The USA and Russia were enemies and still are to a certain extent, but we know how to be good sports to each other even though there's still a power struggle going on between our countries.

Imagine if an American refused to shake a Russian's hand because he/she doesn't like Russians. That person would be booed both here in the USA and in Russia, because that's just completely unacceptable. His/her career would be over.

100% agreed. And frankly, that's why this Iranian lady was in trouble for standing up for women's rights in Iran at the Olympics. Why? because the Olympics is not supposed to be political, but rather a place for people around the world to represent their nations and complete. I admire her and understand that her heart is in the right place, but the Olympics are to be free from politics, not political platforms. I don't think she understood that and the harm it could bring if politics enters the Olympic realm.

 

Peace and God bless you

Why doesn't she have a banner calling for Iranian men to be allowed to enter women's football matches. Oh, I forgot, becaude opposite genders don't go to each other's sports games in Iran.

What a foolish woman. Plus there is the Shah's flag flying next to her.

11 minutes ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

It has become a "hard" war on the poor because certain governments are too stupid to know what's good for them and pour a bunch of resources into nonsense. It can't be helped. I personally wouldn't mind if the olympics were only held in rich "first world" countries to avoid this issue of destroying favelas to build olympic villages. But you can't help the idiocy of governments who want to pretend to project strength through such means.

 

Secondly, you have just decided for yourself that by agreeing to compete in the Olympics you are accepting the IOC's definition of nations. Just because you have decided this, does not make it so. As far as I know, any team or athlete has the right to forfeit any match as they please. So you're just inventing rules on your own. If an athlete refuses to compete to the crappy little wannabe country, he is not only acting within his own moral principles but within his right as an olympian.

 

The difference between the USA and Israel is quite simple and easily explainable for those who are of sound mind. Some people say they are on equal footing, because the USA is built on usurped land, and Israel was built on usurped land, and so on.

 

1) Palestinians outnumber "Israelis." If you count the refugees to Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan, they outnumber the "Israelis" by a very large number. Palestine is still very much a "nation." Their population has not been wiped out by disease or whatever.

 

2) There are people alive today, who actually remember the Nakba. This bloody founding of this country is not something just in the dusty old books but something in the collective memories of the people who suffered because of it.

 

3) Someone once told me: "OK, so now Israel is a thing. We can't deny it. It's not their fault for what their previous generations did." This excuse applies to Muricans, sure, but it does not apply to Israelis. They are still engaging in the most barbaric of behaviors, and as a small but highly militaristic state, all of the population is complicit. They have conscription of 4 years for men and even 3 years for women; their entire territory is smaller than the province of Tehran (I haven't checked this, I'm just assuming), there is no way for someone to just "lay low" and avoid partaking in their war crimes.

 

 

Because of these reasons, there is a big difference between the USA and Israel. All of those wannabe impartials who say "well Israel isn't entirely right but what you say is wrong, too"... they're gonna look mad stupid when Israel falls apart. Remember when Mandela died and all the governments that propped up the apartheid government tripped over themselves writing elegies and offering condolences? It's quite a joke; they think they can get away with whatever they want. I would much rather have the foresight to see the problem before it becomes a historically validated undisputed problem.

Like x100

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47 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Well, the Olympics is plenty political in many ways. The protests during the pre-Olympic torch carry was only one example.

Salam LeftCoastMom,

Understood, but the Olympics is supposed to not be a political platform because then it makes it harder for countries to compete in sports with each other.

Quote

Police having to beat the protestors out of the way of the runner, etc. 

That's sad. :( It's a shame the protestors didn't respect the athletes. I mean, if they were the runner, I'm sure they would have appreciated protestors not being in the way too.

Quote

Protesting the Olympics/your own government is fine.

Definitely protesting one's own government is fine, but the Olympics is not the place to do it, in my opinion

Quote

However, I was speaking of the athletes themselves not conforming to rules of sportsmanship.

Great point.

Quote

Spectators protesting their own government, or anything,  inside the stadium  is a grayer area for me. However, I agree it gets messy and I understand why the IOC would rather keep it outside.

Understood. I understand why the Iranian lady chose to protest for the rights of Iranian women at the Olympics, because her voice and her justifiable cause is heard, but yeah, it does make the Olympics more messy. Ideally, it'd be awesome if there were no issues that needed protesting for the world to know, but it's a fact that there are grave injustices happening around the world and that many people in the world are ignorant about, so yeah I do understand why spectators would want to protest injustice in their own countries on the world stage. Again, I do admire her, but I don't think it's the right place to protest, but she did nonviolently educate people around the world as to women's rights issues in Iran.

Peace and God bless you

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19 minutes ago, silasun said:

Why doesn't she have a banner calling for Iranian men to be allowed to enter women's football matches. Oh, I forgot, becaude opposite genders don't go to each other's sports games in Iran.

Salam Silasun,

Why should a man's parents and family be prevented from watching their son/brother/Dad play?

If an Iranian man wants to watch his daughter play sports, why not? My Dad coached my youngest sister's team in basketball.

It is wrong to sexually paint everything, because that prevents families from doing nonsexual things together. Sports are not sexual; they are physical competitions. If you have a daughter, have you ever taught her a sport? If not, I encourage you to do so. Girls are just as human as boys are and have the capacity to play sports same as boys do.

Peace and God bless you

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Guest silasun

Because Iran is a Muslim country and Islam does not allow people to look at the opposite gender beyond what it defines as the limits.

Every social group sets its limits- some set it at genitalia or a little more.

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35 minutes ago, silasun said:

Because Iran is a Muslim country and Islam does not allow people to look at the opposite gender beyond what it defines as the limits.

Salam Silasun,

Understood, but women can play sports while wearing hijab.

Take for example this awesome Muslim lady:

She follows Muslim dress guidelines and plays a sport. Similarly, Muslim women who play other sports can too. Personally, I admire them for adhering to Muslim dress guidelines while playing.

Quote

Every social group sets its limits- some set it at genitalia or a little more.

True. However, the Olympics does not follow Muslim dress guidelines, so why then do Muslims compete in the Olympics?

Peace and God bless you

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8 hours ago, coldcow said:

Your post is too long for me to address everything right now.  But I'll just address this.

Israel is a Jewish nation.  It is an internationally recognized nation.  By pretending it's not a nation, you look like a child.  Secondly, regardless of if you think this guy not shaking hands decided not to shake his hands because he was an Israeli, because he was a Zionist, or because he was a Jew, it doesn't matter.  It will be viewed as "Muslim vs Jew."  And again, it will be used to prove that Israeli is surrounded by enemies and needs protection (walls) and needs buffer land in case of attack (Golan Heights).  

The Olympics are supposed to be a place where politics is put aside, and people just compete.  

In summary, the fighter was an idiot that represented Muslims poorly and did nothing to help Palestine.

The way the American swimmer chicks treated their Russian counterpart was far more disgusting, unprofessional and politically motivated. 

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16 minutes ago, beardedbaker said:

The way the American swimmer chicks treated their Russian counterpart was far more disgusting, unprofessional and politically motivated. 

Salam BeardedBaker,

What you wrote made me very curious about several things:

1. What did the American swimmers do to their Russian counterpart?

2. Are you a Muslim man? If so, do you watch women swimming?

3. If the answers to 2. is yes, how do you justify this in Islam?

Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

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49 minutes ago, beardedbaker said:

The way the American swimmer chicks treated their Russian counterpart was far more disgusting, unprofessional and politically motivated. 

Really?  Politically motivated?  You're kidding, right?  I'm assuming you're talking about Yulia Efimova, who had been caught doping twice before.  

But you know what, atleast King (the American swimmer) backed up her actions and won.

 

@ChristianladyThe american swimmer called her out and said she shouldn't have been allowed to compete because she was previously caught doping.  She even said that ALL athletes, including Americans, that had been caught doping should be permanently banned.  She also wagged her finger at the Russian swimmer when the Russian swimmer won a prelimary heat and stuck her finger up like she was #1.

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@baradar_jackson

First paragraph... Agree.

Second paragraph...seems to me if you agree to play you agree to play all the teams. Don't know what your nation -state that helped train you, if it did, would feel about a forfeiture. 

 

 

First of all, my statement had nothing to do with the founding of America, but the fact that everyone anti-Israel seems to think America is behind Israel's every move....so why shake an American athlete's hand?

But...since you brought it up....

 

Reply to your first statement re: population differentials...sorry lost that paragraph in the copying.

There are millions of natives still alive on these two continents and very many communities are growing ....like the Lakota Nation , which is larger than some small nations in the UN in land and population, that is protesting and suing right this red hot minute out in CannonBall. (if you count the ones from south of the border coming across into the US,often referred to as " Mexicans" , then folks of mostly native blood could be a majority in this country again shortly. )

So, no one is " wiped out". Wish people would quit saying that. 

As well, if the Palestinian population was less than the Israelis ......that makes their cause less valid? Don't understand your argument.

 

7 hours ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

 

 

2) There are people alive today, who actually remember the Nakba. This bloody founding of this country is not something just in the dusty old books but something in the collective memories of the people who suffered because of it.

 

 Oh, you think the suffering of native peoples, like myself, my parents, my grandparents, or heck, my kids ...is something in " dusty old books". Why do you think that?

There are people in the woods north of here whose grandparents remembered the first white people who chopped their way in there. We have just lost the folks who experienced the last of the indian wars and west coast shoots.

But we never had to to rely on them at all anyway for the " bad stuffs":

forced boarding schools where beatings, rapes, and destruction of culture and language was the rule ( my father-in-law and many other relatives) 

forced sterilizations ( aunt and husbands aunt)

forced labor on ranches and farms ( allowed until the 1939's in some places if you found an indigent native...or you decided he/she was)

suppression/ outlaw of native religion ( my husband and I were in college before that one got worked out)

salmon wars and other native rights battles ( mostly 1970's but ongoing...we're up for it any time....I just had dinner not long ago....pit-roasted fresh-caught salmon... with the Elder that started the last round )

destruction of sacred sites ( not yet stopped) 

school segregation of natives (not worked out until I was ten)

murders of natives by persons of the dominant culture being protected by said culture ( still ongoing, but the rise of native militant groups in the 1960's, fueled by fed-up native war veterans has damped some of that down,thank goodness)

Uninvestigated disappearances of native women ( ongoing)

Native women being three times more likely to get raped than other ethnicities and 80% of the time her attacker will be non-native ( actually more, but I'm being generous) ( ongoing) 

Land theft of native-held  lands  by dominant culture entities.....just got out of court ourselves on that one...won.

These are all well within living " collective ' memory or ongoing.

What was that about the dusty books again?

And again...when the last of the people who remember the Nakba inevitably die and perchance Israel is still around....that then makes the Palestinian struggle invalid? Still do not understand this argument.

 

 

7 hours ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3) Someone once told me: "OK, so now Israel is a thing. We can't deny it. It's not their fault for what their previous generations did." This excuse applies to Muricans, sure, but it does not apply to Israelis. They are still engaging in the most barbaric of behaviors, and as a small but highly militaristic state, all of the population is complicit. They have conscription of 4 years for men and even 3 years for women; their entire territory is smaller than the province of Tehran (I haven't checked this, I'm just assuming), there is no way for someone to just "lay low" and avoid partaking in their war crimes.

 

 

 

 

I'm glad you feel you can decide what Americans are complicit or non-complicit in and what ' excuses" they should have. No, I do not think people are responsible for the actions of their ancestors. Yes, I think all non-native "Americans" still benefit from the attempted genocide of native peoples. Including yourself, obviously. And you do not even seem to know the first thing about them...the ones whose land YOU are sitting on and keep throwing up this " past tense" stuff.  ( I also don't care about this " they have a casino "c.rap... Too many  tribes still live in third world conditions in the US ofA)

( Also...Nice going, American educational system with the brainwash and whitewash......the Israelis will copy you if and when they finish with the Palestinians, sure thing...by this example, it works just fine) 

But you will not get an argument from me on the treatment of the Palestinians at Israeli hands. I'm not partaking in the Olympics of oppression to see who wins a medal in that.

 

 

7 hours ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because of these reasons, there is a big difference between the USA and Israel. All of those wannabe impartials who say "well Israel isn't entirely right but what you say is wrong, too"... they're gonna look mad stupid when Israel falls apart. Remember when Mandela died and all the governments that propped up the apartheid government tripped over themselves writing elegies and offering condolences? It's quite a joke; they think they can get away with whatever they want. I would much rather have the foresight to see the problem before it becomes a historically validated undisputed problem.

Obviously the Actions of the US aren't an " historically validated undisputed problem" or there wouldn't be the incidents I mentioned before, which are ending up in court,etc. or in the field like on Standing Rock today. Treaties may get broken but they still  have the force of federal law , just like any law does not disappear when it is broken. We'll see what the US or Israel can get away with ( or not). Don't think the difference is that big at all. Israel is just earlier in the colonization process. If it follows a better path than the US...good. If the process can be halted and the Palestinians somehow made whole...even better.

That said,.when a Euro-American kid showed up in my classroom, I treated them like any other kid.

It was my job.

Okay, maybe they got a little wider view of history from me and hopefully an appreciation for different points of view...but that's just fine IMHO.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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7 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

@baradar_jackson

First paragraph... Agree.

Second paragraph...seems to me if you agree to play you agree to play all the teams. Don't know what your nation -state that helped train you, if it did, would feel about a forfeiture. 

 

 

First of all, my statement had nothing to do with the founding of America, but the fact that everyone anti-Israel seems to think America is behind Israel's every move....so why shake an American athlete's hand?

But...since you brought it up....

 

Reply to your first statement re: population differentials...sorry lost that paragraph in the copying.

There are millions of natives still alive on these two continents and very many communities are growing ....like the Lakota Nation , which is larger than some small nations in the UN in land and population, that is protesting and suing right this red hot minute out in CannonBall. (if you count the ones from south of the border coming across into the US,often referred to as " Mexicans" , then folks of mostly native blood could be a majority in this country again shortly. )

So, no one is " wiped out". Wish people would quit saying that. 

As well, if the Palestinian population was less than the Israelis ......that makes their cause less valid? Don't understand your argument.

 

 Oh, you think the suffering of native peoples, like myself, my parents, my grandparents, or heck, my kids ...is something in " dusty old books". Why do you think that?

There are people in the woods north of here whose grandparents remembered the first white people who chopped their way in there. We have just lost the folks who experienced the last of the indian wars and west coast shoots.

But we never had to to rely on them at all anyway for the " bad stuffs":

forced boarding schools where beatings, rapes, and destruction of culture and language was the rule ( my father-in-law and many other relatives) 

forced sterilizations ( aunt and husbands aunt)

forced labor on ranches and farms ( allowed until the 1939's in some places if you found an indigent native...or you decided he/she was)

suppression/ outlaw of native religion ( my husband and I were in college before that one got worked out)

salmon wars and other native rights battles ( mostly 1970's but ongoing...we're up for it any time....I just had dinner not long ago....pit-roasted fresh-caught salmon... with the Elder that started the last round )

destruction of sacred sites ( not yet stopped) 

school segregation of natives (not worked out until I was ten)

murders of natives by persons of the dominant culture being protected by said culture ( still ongoing, but the rise of native militant groups in the 1960's, fueled by fed-up native war veterans has damped some of that down,thank goodness)

Uninvestigated disappearances of native women ( ongoing)

Native women being three times more likely to get raped than other ethnicities and 80% of the time her attacker will be non-native ( actually more, but I'm being generous) ( ongoing) 

Land theft of native-held  lands  by dominant culture entities.....just got out of court ourselves on that one...won.

These are all well within living " collective ' memory or ongoing.

What was that about the dusty books again?

And again...when the last of the people who remember the Nakba inevitably die and perchance Israel is still around....that then makes the Palestinian struggle invalid? Still do not understand this argument.

 

 

 

I'm glad you feel you can decide what Americans are complicit or non-complicit in and what ' excuses" they should have. No, I do not think people are responsible for the actions of their ancestors. Yes, I think all non-native "Americans" still benefit from the attempted genocide of native peoples. Including yourself, obviously. And you do not even seem to know the first thing about them...the ones whose land YOU are sitting on and keep throwing up this " past tense" stuff.  ( I also don't care about this " they have a casino "c.rap... Too many  tribes still live in third world conditions in the US ofA)

( Also...Nice going, American educational system with the brainwash and whitewash......the Israelis will copy you if and when they finish with the Palestinians, sure thing...by this example, it works just fine) 

But you will not get an argument from me on the treatment of the Palestinians at Israeli hands. I'm not partaking in the Olympics of oppression to see who wins a medal in that.

 

 

Obviously the Actions of the US aren't an " historically validated undisputed problem" or there wouldn't be the incidents I mentioned before, which are ending up in court,etc. or in the field like on Standing Rock today. Treaties may get broken but they still  have the force of federal law , just like any law does not disappear when it is broken. We'll see what the US or Israel can get away with ( or not). Don't think the difference is that big at all. Israel is just earlier in the colonization process. If it follows a better path than the US...good. If the process can be halted and the Palestinians somehow made whole...even better.

That said,.when a Euro-American kid showed up in my classroom, I treated them like any other kid.

It was my job.

Okay, maybe they got a little wider view of history from me and hopefully an appreciation for different points of view...but that's just fine IMHO.

Preach it, @LeftCoastMom

@baradar_jackson Brother, if anything the Trail of Tears was no less of a tragedy than Nakba, and the most native American people are still treated like second class citizens in this country like LeftCoastMom said. Plus, the casinos aren't a very good source of income either. At least ,it's a big deal when someone find a native American burial ground where I live and give the local  tribe some respect and dignity. I can't say the same for the other parts of the US. 

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On 15 August 2016 at 3:40 AM, David66 said:

Hello,

This "diseased" country is the most stable, most productive, most innovative and most democratic country in the Middle East.  It's citizens, including minorities, enjoy a better quality of life than all other Middle East countries.

I think your words, when compared with facts and reality, reveal a jealous little man.

All the Best,

David

David even though we may agree with you on that part, that this country is " most productive, most innovative and most democratic country in the Middle East."

Yeah They look after their own people and care for them to some extent. But This country is based on Inhumane values.... In order to get what they want they destroy the lives of innocent people. But I'm not sure whether it's fully democratic because only elite class get elected. There's nothing moral about this country and those who are supporting it.   

 "It's citizens, including minorities, enjoy a better quality of life than all other Middle East countries. "

Only those citizens who agree with it's aggression on innocent people who walk the walk and talk the talk not all. 

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On 15 August 2016 at 5:03 AM, David66 said:

Hello,

"Palestinians" receive more financial aid per capita than any other group in the World.  Where does all this money go?

All the Best,

David

Really, you think that is going solve the problem. By giving aid to people !!! They have no manufacturing no jobs no houses.... No matter how much aid they receive it will be consumed by people sooner or later. Plus Israelies destroy whatever they receive by bombing every now and then...   

 

And you are forgetting why they are receiving the aid in the first place !!! And also what kind of Aid they receive. Some food, water, blankets etc not laser guided missiles, F-22s or bombs like Israel does. 

Edited by AvengerAfterRepentance

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