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In the Name of God بسم الله

How do we treat Israelis?

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4 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Repenter,

Well, Moses' successor Joshua, as well as Caleb, did not mess up, and hence forth did not lose the right.

Not to God.

True.

.................

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Well, Moses' successor Joshua, as well as Caleb, did not mess up, and hence forth did not lose the right.

I'm not sure if you are reading wrongly, not understanding what i'm writing, or it's my english......
Let me try this again......
Moses, Haroon, etc etc, did not fail anything. Their followers(aka Israellis/people of Israel), according our history, our Quran, and well, even Torah in many instances, failed a lot of their trials, that they had to pass. Worshipping golden cow, fornication, refusing to listen to orders etc etc. Not to mention the countless prophets and men of God they killed. So according to our history, they were punished and their "rights" taken from them. 

 

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Not to God.

Not according to your understanding of God and his ways. This is my point exactly, your views on religion alone is so immensely different than ours that this debate died before it stared. 

 

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Neither one of us will change the other's mind, but at least this discussion (not debate) is helping us understand each other's view better. :)

I grew up with Neocon Christians and more liberal Christians. I fully know the ways you think and your views. 

 

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Is that how Caliph Umar, who conquered Jerusalem, thought of Israel/Palestine? Sunni Muslims seem to have a different view on this, because I've never heard them say that God didn't promise them land.

Some Sunni Muslims seem to believe that Allah has given them Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Palestine, even all the way till Spain till the Catholic Spaniards forced them out. (I still debate with my Catholic Spanish friends over whether it was necessary to fight the Sunni Muslims, and they assure me it was necessary.

We are shias, we have no agreement with what Sunni Caliphs did nor do we recognize their authority. Hence me saying Muslims failed....

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Out of curiosity, do you believe that the time of the "4 rightly guided caliphs" was not a promised time? While I've been on Shiachat for a long time, I do confess that I know more about Sunni beliefs than Shia, because I personally interact more with Sunni Muslims than with Shias. (There are more Sunnis in my area of the woods than Shias, most of my Muslim friends are Sunni.)

Interestingly, it was during the time of the "4 rightly guided caliphs) that Muslims conquered a lot of land, which from what I understand is mostly considered Muslim territory to this day - a remarkable feat, if one thinks about it. I mean, Egypt for example used to be considered a Christian nation and has been Muslim ever since conquered during the time of the "rightly guided caliphs"...

To be frank, many Coptic Christians from Egypt today do not appreciate the Sunni Muslim domination of their country, which is one reason why many have immigrated to the USA.

No, im a shia. We believe that the 4th Caliph was the chosen one after the prophet. Just like Haroon was chosen by Moses. We have no agreement with what the first 3 Caliphs did, nor with their ways. 

 

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I don't remember ever having heard/read this before, so it is very interesting to me to learn more about your point of view. Is this view shared by many Shia Muslims, or just a certain group of Shias?

Yes, you are not a shia unless you wait for the promised time. That is the whole essence of shia. 

 

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I will google Imam Mahdi and promised time now, thanks. What little I know of the Imam Mahdi is what I have learned from Shiachat.

As you know, I disagree with even the concept of an Imam Mahdi, because I personally believe Jesus Christ will return as the King of kings, not as a sidekick/second in command to a Muslim ruler. However, I respect your belief, though it differs from mine.

Peace and God bless you, and thanks for your time

We view Jesus as more worthy than a King, and more worthy than King of Kings. King is not a fitting title for Jesus in our books as he is much more than that in our eyes. 

If you want to learn more about our view of history watch this(you can ignore the last part about Iran as it is irrelevant to our talk, although still interesting for your own curiosity.: 

 

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19 hours ago, repenter said:


I'm not sure if you are reading wrongly, not understanding what i'm writing, or it's my english......

Salam Repenter,

Your English is fine. What I don't get is how it seems that you are generalizing all the Israelis. God led the Children of Israel into Promised Land after Moses died, and He did via Joshua, Moses's successor. So, my point is not all of the Children of Israel failed.

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Worshipping golden cow, fornication, refusing to listen to orders etc etc.

Again, not all of the Children of Israel failed the above temptations. That's why God led the Children of Israel who did not fail tests into the Promised Land under the guidance of Moses' successor, Joshua.

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Not to mention the countless prophets and men of God they killed. So according to our history, they were punished and their "rights" taken from them. 

Obviously God is merciful.

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Not according to your understanding of God and his ways. This is my point exactly, your views on religion alone is so immensely different than ours that this debate died before it stared. 

I personally don't see this as a debate, but rather as a discussion.

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I grew up with Neocon Christians and more liberal Christians. I fully know the ways you think and your views. 

Christians are diverse, same as Muslims are diverse, same as Jews are diverse, and everybody else. :)

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We are shias, we have no agreement with what Sunni Caliphs did nor do we recognize their authority. Hence me saying Muslims failed....

Do you think only Sunni Muslims have failed?

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No, im a shia. We believe that the 4th Caliph was the chosen one after the prophet. Just like Haroon was chosen by Moses. We have no agreement with what the first 3 Caliphs did, nor with their ways. 

Well, despite not having an agreement with them, they are a vital part of Islamic history.

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Yes, you are not a shia unless you wait for the promised time. That is the whole essence of shia. 

That's interesting. Never heard that before. I am learning a lot about what it means to be a Shia from you. Thanks! :)

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We view Jesus as more worthy than a King, and more worthy than King of Kings. King is not a fitting title for Jesus in our books as he is much more than that in our eyes. 

For most Christians, including me, God is the King of kings. Most Christians, including me, believe that Jesus is God incarnate. Obviously, Jesus is much more than simply a human king in the eyes of most Christians.

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If you want to learn more about our view of history watch this(you can ignore the last part about Iran as it is irrelevant to our talk, although still interesting for your own curiosity.: 

Ok, thanks! I have to go now, but if God wills, I will watch it with my hubby later on.

Peace and God bless you

 

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3 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Repenter,

Your English is fine. What I don't get is how it seems that you are generalizing all the Israelis. God led the Children of Israel into Promised Land after Moses died, and He did via Joshua, Moses's successor. So, my point is not all of the Children of Israel failed.

Again, not all of the Children of Israel failed the above temptations. That's why God led the Children of Israel who did not fail tests into the Promised Land under the guidance of Moses' successor, Joshua.

Obviously God is merciful.

I personally don't see this as a debate, but rather as a discussion.

Christians are diverse, same as Muslims are diverse, same as Jews are diverse, and everybody else. :)

Do you think only Sunni Muslims have failed?

Well, despite not having an agreement with them, they are a vital part of Islamic history.

That's interesting. Never heard that before. I am learning a lot about what it means to be a Shia from you. Thanks! :)

For most Christians, including me, God is the King of kings. Most Christians, including me, believe that Jesus is God incarnate. Obviously, Jesus is much more than simply a human king in the eyes of most Christians.

Ok, thanks! I have to go now, but if God wills, I will watch it with my hubby later on.

Peace and God bless you

 

 

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Your English is fine. What I don't get is how it seems that you are generalizing all the Israelis. God led the Children of Israel into Promised Land after Moses died, and He did via Joshua, Moses's successor. So, my point is not all of the Children of Israel failed.

I'm not generalizing. You don't seem to understand that your history says God led the Children of Israel into the Promised land, our history doesn't. It's quite simple really. It doesn't matter if children of Israel had 2% good guys that did their job while the rest failed. The children of Israel, as a whole, failed their task in our books. 

 

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Again, not all of the Children of Israel failed the above temptations. That's why God led the Children of Israel who did not fail tests into the Promised Land under the guidance of Moses' successor, Joshua.

It doesn't matter if all of them didn't fail. According to us, the majority did and that is enough to fail their mission. We keep repeating ourselves here......

 

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Obviously God is merciful.

Obviously. But in our books he isn't just merciful, he is also just and punishes if he sees fit.

 

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Christians are diverse, same as Muslims are diverse, same as Jews are diverse, and everybody else. :)

Foundation is the same for most. 

 

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Do you think only Sunni Muslims have failed?

Nope, I believe muslims as a whole has failed. Only difference is that shias realize this and admit to it, while sunnis still think everything is fine and dandy. 

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Well, despite not having an agreement with them, they are a vital part of Islamic history.

Not sure how that is relevant to anything.

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For most Christians, including me, God is the King of kings. Most Christians, including me, believe that Jesus is God incarnate. Obviously, Jesus is much more than simply a human king in the eyes of most Christians.

For most muslims, King is a concept man made and beneath holy figures.

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On ‎24‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 7:36 PM, AvengerAfterRepentance said:

1. As for people of isreal concerned if they meet us in their personal capacity as another human I have respect for them as long as they aren't representing and promoting their Illegal state of Isreal and it's oppression. And They are many Jews who themselves are against Israel and it's human right violations.

2. I have nothing against Jews but I have everything against those who support Israel and it's policies whether they are Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus or who ever they are for that matter because if you are supporting Israel, You are supporting oppression and you are supporting  it's in humane policies. And Many Jews living in so called state of Israel,  believe what their Govt had done and is doing is wrong and it should be stopped. 

1. Kid its can't work both ways. That you respect a person from Israel but also call their country 'illegal'. And by whose definition do you call it an illegal state?

More than 150 countries all over the world have recognised it as an independent nation and so have many international organisations like the UN.

2. Get a reality check. The clear majority of Jews are ardent supporters of Israel and have connections to the country in one way or another.

How does Israel compare to the oppression of entities like Saudi Arabia and Hamas? My question to you. Israel treats its minorities like Israeli Arabs, Circassians and Armenians quite well unlike most other Arab and Middle Eastern nations. However the West Bank is different, as it is not apart of Israel proper and so is not subject to the laws and regulations followed in the rest of the country. It is considered an occupied territory under Israeli military occupation and so does not fall completely under Israeli jurisdiction. It is unfortunate what the Israeli military has sometimes done in the occupied territories.

In the amongst all of this Israelis should be treated with respect and justly irrespective of their beliefs and political convictions which you entitled to disagree with.

 

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On ‎24‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 6:41 PM, IbnSina said:

1. “You do not shake hands with the representative of israel because there is no nation called israel!”

Which means, he represents the state of Israel and that is why i would not shake hands with him, would he be simply a jew i would shake hands with him, yet you started to assume i dislike jews and started to question me.

2. And whether the group of jews who dislike the state of Israel are minority or a sect or anything ells, it is irrelevant. The matter of the fact is that there are jews that dislikes the states of Israel, such as many orthodox jews. As well as millions of non jews who dislike the state of Israel but have nothing against jewish people.

1. I never assumed you disliked Jews? But I assume you would dislike most Jews as the majority of them support Israel and have connections to that country in one way or another. According to your criteria you will end up disliking most Jews.

2. Wrong! Most Jews that are against Israel are Atheist and Irreligious like notable ones like Noam Chomsky, Antony Loewenstein, Illan Pappe and many others. Whereas most Orthodox Jews are supporters of Israel. Ultra-Orthodox like the Neturei Marta are exceptions.

I even have met quite a few Non-Religious Jews and many of them are quite sympathetic to the Palestinians suffering and cause much more than the practicing Orthodox ones. Many pf them are even quote vocal and open about their views and support for the Palestinians. At the end of the day most Jewish supporters of the Palestinian cause are irreligious and atheist who you should be giving respect and recognition to.

 

 

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17 hours ago, repenter said:


I'm not generalizing.

Salam Repenter,

What's your definition of generalizing? According to an English dictionary, generalizing is the following:

verb (used with object), generalized, generalizing.

1.to infer (a general principle, trend, etc.) from particular facts, statistics, or the like.
2.to infer or form (a general principle, opinion, conclusion, etc.) from only a few facts, examples, or the like.
3.to give a general rather than a specific or special character or form to.
4.to make general; bring into general use or knowledge.
 
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You don't seem to understand that your history says God led the Children of Israel into the Promised land, our history doesn't.

Well, the Qur'an talks about God giving David the "kingdom"... so where does your history think this kingdom is? In Egypt? In Japan? In Persia? Where does your history put this kingdom?

The history of the Children of Israel (which is not my history, but it's history I study because of Jesus Christ) puts this kingdom in the Promised Land, the land God promised Moses for the Children of Israel.

I boldened some in the verses below:

So they routed them by Allah's leave and David slew Goliath; and Allah gave him the KINGDOM and wisdom, and taught him of that which He willeth. And if Allah had not repelled some men by others the earth would have been corrupted. But Allah is a Lord of Kindness to (His) creatures. - 2:251 (Picktall)

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It's quite simple really. It doesn't matter if children of Israel had 2% good guys that did their job while the rest failed. The children of Israel, as a whole, failed their task in our books. 

It doesn't matter if all of them didn't fail. According to us, the majority did and that is enough to fail their mission. We keep repeating ourselves here......

So is that the same for Muslims? Do you believe that the majority of Muslims failed, and hence God will give the promised land or time to another group of people?

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Obviously. But in our books he isn't just merciful, he is also just and punishes if he sees fit.

God's justice and His punishing the wicked are clearly shown throughout the Tanakh and the New Testament.

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Foundation is the same for most. 

The foundation is the Word of God, which God does not allow to become corrupted. Why? Because God is not weak. He is omnipotent and has protected His Word throughout the centuries.
 

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Nope, I believe muslims as a whole has failed. Only difference is that shias realize this and admit to it, while sunnis still think everything is fine and dandy. 

Ah, so you are generalizing Muslims too... Muslims as a whole.

So then, do you believe God will raise up another group of people to replace Muslims?

(For the record, some Christians think that Christians replaced Jews as God's chosen people, in what is referred to as replacement theology.) I personally disagree with replacement theology.

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

(I don't believe Christians replaced the Jews, nor do I believe Muslims replaced anybody either.) Out of curiosity, do you believe Muslims replaced both the Jews and the Christians?

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For most muslims, King is a concept man made and beneath holy figures.

 

Malik means King in Arabic, yes?

According to the Picktall translation, Allah is the true King: (I boldened some.)

Then exalted be Allah, the True KING! And hasten not (O Muhammad) with the Quran ere its revelation hath been perfected unto thee, and say: My Lord! Increase me in knowledge. - 20:114 (Picktall)

 

Now Allah be exalted, the True KING! There is no God save Him, the Lord of the Throne of Grace. - 23:116 (Picktall)

 

What/where is the Kingdom of God? The Kingdom is in both the heavens and the earth, as the Qur'an clearly states:

Or is the KINGdom of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them theirs? Then let them ascend by ropes! - 38:10 (Picktall)

 

According to my Sunni Muslim friends, one of the 99 titles of God is Al-Malik, which can be according to them correctly translated as King of kings.

http://understandquran.com/the-answer-is-al-malik.html

Peace and God bless you

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21 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Repenter,

What's your definition of generalizing? According to an English dictionary, generalizing is the following:

verb (used with object), generalized, generalizing.

1.to infer (a general principle, trend, etc.) from particular facts, statistics, or the like.
2.to infer or form (a general principle, opinion, conclusion, etc.) from only a few facts, examples, or the like.
3.to give a general rather than a specific or special character or form to.
4.to make general; bring into general use or knowledge.
 

 

Well, the Qur'an talks about God giving David the "kingdom"... so where does your history think this kingdom is? In Egypt? In Japan? In Persia? Where does your history put this kingdom?

The history of the Children of Israel (which is not my history, but it's a history I study because of Jesus Christ) puts this kingdom in the Promised Land, the land God promised Moses for the Children of Israel.

I boldened some in the verses below:

So they routed them by Allah's leave and David slew Goliath; and Allah gave him the KINGDOM and wisdom, and taught him of that which He willeth. And if Allah had not repelled some men by others the earth would have been corrupted. But Allah is a Lord of Kindness to (His) creatures. - 2:251 (Picktall)

So is that the same for Muslims? Do you believe that the majority of Muslims failed, and hence God will give the promised land or time to another group of people?

 

 

God's justice and His punishing the wicked are clearly shown throughout the Tanakh and the New Testament.

The foundation is the Word of God, which God does not allow to become corrupted. Why? Because God is not weak. He is omnipotent and has protected His Word throughout the centuries.
 

Ah, so you are generalizing Muslims too... Muslims as a whole.

So then, do you believe God will raise up another group of people to replace Muslims?

(For the record, some Christians think that Christians replaced Jews as God's chosen people in what is referred at replacement theology.)

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

It is funny and true that Christians do not appreciate the idea of some Muslims who claim that Muslims have replaced both Jews and Christians lol. :) (I don't believe Christians replaced the Jews, nor do I believe Muslims replaced anybody either.) Out of curiosity, do you believe Muslims replaced both the Jews and the Christians?

Malik means King in Arabic, yes?

According to the Picktall translation, Allah is the true King: (I boldened some.)

Then exalted be Allah, the True KING! And hasten not (O Muhammad) with the Quran ere its revelation hath been perfected unto thee, and say: My Lord! Increase me in knowledge. - 20:114 (Picktall)

 

Now Allah be exalted, the True KING! There is no God save Him, the Lord of the Throne of Grace. - 23:116 (Picktall)

 

 

 

What/where is the Kingdom of God? The Kingdom of heavens and the earth, as the Qur'an clearly states:

Or is the KINGdom of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them theirs? Then let them ascend by ropes! - 38:10 (Picktall)

 

According to my Sunni Muslim friends, one of the 99 titles of God is Al-Malik, which can be according to them correctly translated as King of kings.

http://understandquran.com/the-answer-is-al-malik.html

Peace and God bless you

Yeah...this isnt going anywhere.

Call it generalising if you like. If a team of 10 navy seals fail in their opeartion because 1 of them made a booboo, the team failed in their mission. You are just shooting in the dark here noe CL. 

It still remains a fact that most israellis failed, over and over and over again. You mentioning David just proves the fact that God gave them ten folds of chances and they still failed.

Did you even bother to watch the clip? It explains OUR view of history. What bible and torah says is totally irrelevant to us if it goes against what we consider to be truth. Why is this so hard to accept? We even have a chapter dedicated to them...you should read it if you really want to learn.

Malik does not mean King as you see it. Though the literal translation means King. The name abdulmalik means servant of the king which in this case means God. You have to know arabic for this to make sense, but its not the King as christians see it.

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1 hour ago, Zendegi said:

1. I never assumed you disliked Jews? But I assume you would dislike most Jews as the majority of them support Israel and have connections to that country in one way or another. According to your criteria you will end up disliking most Jews.

Salam Zendegi,

Aye. My Jewish friends support Israel. I have asked one Orthodox Jewish lady to get on Shiachat long time ago, but she politely declined. Why? She believes that Muslims in general hate Jews, especially if they dare to support the only Jewish nation in the world. (There are many English nations, including the USA. There are also quite a few Arabic nations, including Egypt which was Arabized by the Arabs who conquered the land... Egypt is not originally an Arab country, same as the USA was not originally English land.)

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I even have met quite a few Non-Religious Jews and many of them are quite sympathetic to the Palestinians suffering and cause much more than the practicing Orthodox ones. Many pf them are even quote vocal and open about their views and support for the Palestinians. At the end of the day most Jewish supporters of the Palestinian cause are irreligious and atheist who you should be giving respect and recognition to.

Well, I think that some people think that being pro-Israel = anti-Palestine, but that's incorrect. There are many Jews who believe in G-d and support Israel, who do love their Palestinian neighbors and who do want the Israeli government and Israeli soldiers to be caring and to not oppress the Palestinian people.

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2. Wrong! Most Jews that are against Israel are Atheist and Irreligious like notable ones like Noam Chomsky, Antony Loewenstein, Illan Pappe and many others. Whereas most Orthodox Jews are supporters of Israel. Ultra-Orthodox like the Neturei Marta are exceptions.

even have met quite a few Non-Religious Jews and many of them are quite sympathetic to the Palestinians suffering and cause much more than the practicing Orthodox ones. Many pf them are even quote vocal and open about their views and support for the Palestinians. At the end of the day most Jewish supporters of the Palestinian cause are irreligious and atheist who you should be giving respect and recognition to.

And, many Jewish people who support Israel, regardless of if they believe in God or not, do not support violence against the Palestinians. Rather, they support helping the Palestinians and being good neighbors. Again, these Jewish people are often ignored. Why? Because just how many Muslims who do good deeds are ignored while Muslims who kill are not ignored, that is often the same with Jewish people regardless of their beliefs in God.

Peace and God bless you

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On 8/14/2016 at 8:30 PM, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

بسمه تعالى وتقدس

السلام عليكم

While watching the Jiu-Jitsu segment of the Olympics Israel vs Egypt came up. After the Egyptian participant lost, he did not shake hands with the Israeli, even though the Israeli participant chased him around a bit with his hand out.

Was that the right choice?

How about in university or work? What if one of the people there happens to be Israeli? How should we act around them?

:bismillah:

I think that it was a bad choice and a poor display to do that.  There are so many ayas in the Qur'an that talk about respect and good manners for Ahl al Kitab (Christians and Jews for our non Muslim friends).  The Holy Prophet (SAWAS) was always cordial and respectful of the same, and did not Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (AS) say: people are of two types.  Either they are your brothers in faith, or your equals in humanity?

What the occupier of Palestine does is wrong (I refuse to even refer to that illegal "state" as anything other than the usurper or occupier of Palestine, but I don't think it's fair to condemn ordinary people for the crimes of their government.  There is a strong peace movement in Occupied Palestine.  How did the Egyptian athlete know that the opponent was a bad person? He didn't. Do we not share the same Prophets as our Jewish brethren? Do we not worship the same God? Consider the heinous actions of the American government (at the behest of the 1% and corporations) across the world.  I have been blessed to have met brothers and sisters from all over the world who gave me the chance to share that I too reject and oppose the actions of the American government, and indeed any government that commits Zulm.  I reject wars of intervention and regime change, theft of natural resources, propping up of dictators; I absolutely reject the notion that outside the borders of this country that there are lesser people out there.  

But they could have said "F you, Yankee.  You're an American so you're evil."

I thank those brothers and sisters, many here, who have lived up to the teaching of Al Amir al Mu'minin (AS). May Allah guide us all to righteousness and compassion without distinction.

R

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3 hours ago, Zendegi said:

1. Kid its can't work both ways. That you respect a person from Israel but also call their country 'illegal'. And by whose definition do you call it an illegal state?

More than 150 countries all over the world have recognised it as an independent nation and so have many international organisations like the UN.

 

 

Kiddie.. You definitely live in la la land. With very small tunnel vision....

Why can't you respect a person if he/she doesn't agree with the in humane policies of it's own country and doesn't support oppression ? Such people deserve respect. 

Almost all the Muslim countries some even by name don't recognise Israel as a state, There are 31 countries,  including North Korea, Bhutan and Cuba, that don't recognise it as a country but as an occupation. And I believe the country you live in doens't recognise Israel it as well. So that's like whole Islamic world. So you have no argument there. Plus how can those who helped in it's initial occupation and migration of zionists Jews to Palestine, not recognise it as state? Then there are allies of such world powers !!

But Even if the whole world support the wrong, it doesn't make it Right !! Kid

The oppression and wrong is wrong and it always stays that way !!  

3 hours ago, Zendegi said:

 

2. Get a reality check. The clear majority of Jews are ardent supporters of Israel and have connections to the country in one way or another.

 

Clear majority !! It's the same majority of people that support oppression on other human beings. That's why they don't get respect when they promote their illegal state. and As for as good and rational Jews are concerned who are against the  illegal state and it's illegal oppression they deserve utmost respect and they even get it from Muslims all around the world. They are the among the real humans who have the courage to raise voice against their atrocities committed against fellow human beings in their name and in the name of their religion !! 

 

3 hours ago, Zendegi said:

 

How does Israel compare to the oppression of entities like Saudi Arabia and Hamas?

 

First, Israel isn't even a state so comparison can't be made with other states, it's just an occupation !!! So I'm not going to compare and comment on ur comparison.

As far as treatment of Arab countries to its minority concerns that's another topic, we can't compare the Israel with them,  As i said Israel isn't even a state. It's just an OCcupation. 

 

3 hours ago, Zendegi said:

  However the West Bank is different, as it is not apart of Israel proper and so is not subject to the laws and regulations followed in the rest of the country. It is considered an occupied territory under Israeli military occupation and so does not fall completely under Israeli jurisdiction. It is unfortunate what the Israeli military has sometimes done in the occupied territories.

Huh !!! West Bank is different story !!! Look at the contradictions in your statements.... !!!!  And I will just say, If israel's policies were that fair we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place and world would have been at peace !!!! 

The whole land of Israel belongs to Palestine and it's people. Just because the world powers supported the occupation and assisted them with grabbing the land from poor palestians, it doesn't make it right. 

And what Israelites has done to Palestians they are enemies of humans. Obviously not all of them, but those who support such in humane policies.

But anyway we don't expect anything good from enemies of humans. And those who support such polices among masses they shouldn't expect the respect from rational and justice people for supporting their so called leaders and their oppressive policies against other humans.

3 hours ago, Zendegi said:

 

In the amongst all of this Israelis should be treated with respect and justly irrespective of their beliefs and political convictions which you entitled to disagree with.

 

If it was only to their believes and convictions we wouldn't have any problems and the world would have been a safer place. Their believes and convictions support the on going, never ending occupation and oppression of Palestinans.  They shouldn't support their leaders otherwise they are as responsible as the soliders who are exciting the orders of their superiors in killing/harassing/raping/looting/destroying the lives of innocent people, why ? Because they are behind  such soldiers, leaders and their oppressive policies.  

And those among them who raise their voices against such oppression deserve the utmost respect. And I'm sure every such Jew is ashamed of Isreal. As the picture posted by Ibn sina shows you. 

I think I have made points clear enough for anyone who believes in justice and rationality. 

 

Edited by AvengerAfterRepentance
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On 15 August 2016 at 1:30 AM, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

بسمه تعالى وتقدس

السلام عليكم

While watching the Jiu-Jitsu segment of the Olympics Israel vs Egypt came up. After the Egyptian participant lost, he did not shake hands with the Israeli, even though the Israeli participant chased him around a bit with his hand out.

Was that the right choice?

How about in university or work? What if one of the people there happens to be Israeli? How should we act around them?

 

And now coming to this... I think he shouldn't have played the match with him in the first place. But When he has played it then he should have showed respect by shaking hands. That's sportsmanship. 

In university and at your work place they should be treated with respect because they are your colleagues now. And I know many work and study in their personal capacity not as a representative of their country.  Now they have right over you as a colleague and a fellow student. 

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5 hours ago, repenter said:

Yeah...this isnt going anywhere.

Salam Repenter,

Out of curiosity, do you normally see a glass with 1/2 water as half empty or half full? I tend to see it as half full, a positive. :) So naturally, I see this discussion as being a positive learning experience. 

Quote

Call it generalising if you like. If a team of 10 navy seals fail in their opeartion because 1 of them made a booboo, the team failed in their mission. You are just shooting in the dark here noe CL. 

There is more than just 1 team of navy seals though. Some teams fail, some teams succeed. Similarly, there are more than just one group of Israelites or one group of Muslims.

Quote

It still remains a fact that most israellis failed, over and over and over again.

Most Christians failed too, such as the Christians who immigrated to the "New Land" who disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. The Crusaders as well disobeyed Jesus Christ. :( There are Christians however who have and do obey Jesus Christ! :)

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You mentioning David just proves the fact that God gave them ten folds of chances and they still failed.

Do you believe King David failed? (I do believe he failed at least 2 tests, but he passed the other tests God gave him.)

Quote

Did you even bother to watch the clip?

I was going to watch it yesterday evening with my hubby but he wasn't interested. I just watched it and it wasn't a bother at all. I took notes, which I couldn't have done if my hubby had watched it with me. I will post my notes on it after writing this reply.

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It explains OUR view of history. What bible and torah says is totally irrelevant to us if it goes against what we consider to be truth. Why is this so hard to accept?

Well, there are people who believe that what the Qur'an says is "totally irrelevant to us if it goes against what we consider to be truth" Neither concept is hard to accept.

Quote


We even have a chapter dedicated to them...you should read it if you really want to learn.

 

Are you referring to Sura 17? I have read Sura 17. 

Quote

Malik does not mean King as you see it. Though the literal translation means King.

I see the literal translation as what it means.

Quote

The name abdulmalik means servant of the king which in this case means God.

Aye, because God is the King of kings.

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You have to know arabic for this to make sense

Why? It makes sense in English too.

Quote

but its not the King as christians see it.

How so?

Also, could you please answer my questions?

1. Do you believe Muslims have replaced Jews and Christians?

2. Do you believe that Muslims can be replaced by another group of people? If no, why not?

Thanks so much for your time.

Peace and God bless you

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5 hours ago, repenter said:

Did you even bother to watch the clip?

Salam Repenter,

Again, it wasn't a bother. Here are my notes (Please forgive any errors in quoting and noting the time; I'm just human):

8:37 “God is the best ruler”
100% agreed! Ruler = King :)

8:49-51 “God said: the theocracy which I have planned for you is in the promised land. That’s why Zionists speak about the Promised Land and want to occupy Palestine”  Agreed!

9:12 “You’ll walk on air…” Really?

10:33 “Why didn’t Israelites come back to the Egypt? Pharaoh drowned with his army… Because they promised to go to the Holy Land.” Excellent point!

At 10:51, it’s cool that he uses the Children of Israel’s desire to go to the Holy land as an inspiration: “They wanted to go to the Holy Land; we should go to the ‘holy time.’ “

Now I understand Repenter about the promised time you talk about, as opposed to promised land.

This is true: “Each land was not valuable to them even if it was Egypt.” (10:56)

It is interesting that the Youtube acknowledges that the Children of Israel had to fight people for the Holy Land:

14:45 “Moses said: enter the Holy Land and do jihad. God gives it to you. It means it’s yours…” (Interesting how jihad here does not mean spiritual struggle, but rather physical fighting). This reminds me of the following verse in the Qur’an:

Bethink thee of the leaders of the Children of Israel after MOSES, how they said unto a Prophet whom they had: Set up for us a King and we will fight in Allah's way. He said: Would ye then refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you? They said: Why should we not fight in Allah's way when we have been driven from our dwellings with our children? Yet, when fighting was prescribed for them, they turned away, all save a few of them. Allah is Aware of evil-doers. - 2:246 (Picktall)

While the Children of Israel fought the Canaanites during Moses and Joshua’s times, their fight against the Canaanites (those who lived in the land) continued even in King David’s time. David actually killed the Philistine Goliath before he became the 2nd King of Israel.

Moses did not ask God to break him away from the Israelites (17:12).  Moses interceded and pleaded for God’s mercy on the Israelites!!! http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0232.htm

The speaker completely ignores Joshua and Caleb, the only 2 out of the 12 leaders of Israel who said that they will fight… and they did later on, after Moses. http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0413.htm

It’s interesting how some Shia Muslims completely ignore much of the history of the Children of Israel, and change some of it. I wonder how they would feel if another religion changed Shia history and completely ignored certain leaders in their history?

If some other nation tried to delete the second President of the USA from history, that would be really weird! (If Americans themselves tried to, that'd be really weird and wrong as well.) President George Washington is the first President of the USA, and John Adams is the second President of the USA. Moses is the first leader of the children of Israel going to the Promised Land, and Joshua is the second leader. Facts of history.

It is true that “for 40 years they were deprived of the Holy Land” (I8:42). That was enough time for all the unbelieving leaders to die. Joshua and Caleb were the only men of their generation to enter the Promised Land:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0414.htm

20:00 “Israelites in the time of the prophet David…passed the economical and jihad exam…” And who did the Israelites do the jihad (fight) against? The Philistines. Interestingly, the Roman Emperor Hadrian later named the land Palestine after the Philistines. (Hadrian hated the Jews for daring to rebel against him.)

 

20:34 “They made chaos against Prophet David. They completely destroyed the system…”  Really? So how did David’s son Solomon become king if the system was completely destroyed?

About the Iran/Iraq war, I wish the USA had not gotten involved in the Iraq/Iran war. And, I wish the USA had never tried to mess with the leadership of Iran. It was wrong of the USA to do on both counts. :(

This is interesting - 35:13: “nowadays, only 2 countries understood that for arrival of their saviors, they should do something… Iran… Israel…” So, Iran does recognize Israel as a country, and that Israel has a Savior coming? (Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles both believe this Savior coming is Jesus/Yeshua!)

This is a very sagacious question: 35:25 “Do you understand that Israel occupied Palestine to form their regime for their savior?” Yes, I understand this.

This is an interesting prayer to Imam Mahdi - 39:38 “Oh our sir, dear master, pray for us. You are arbiter of us and this land and this country.”

It is interesting how Shia Iranian Muslims feel so close to their land (Iran) like how the Israelis feel to their land (Israel): While I know Messianic Jewish Israelis pray to Yeshua/Jesus (the arbiter/Savior/Anointed One), I don’t know if Jewish Israelis who reject Jesus pray to the Mashiach. I’ll have to ask.

Thanks Repenter for posting the link. Discussing with you helps me understand your and Shia Muslim views better, even though obviously we disagree. (Hence why I'm not a Shia Muslim.)

Peace and God bless you

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4 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Repenter,

Out of curiosity, do you normally see a glass with 1/2 water as half empty or half full? I tend to see it as half full, a positive. :) So naturally, I see this discussion as being a positive learning experience. 

...............

...............

 

Quote

Salam Repenter,

Out of curiosity, do you normally see a glass with 1/2 water as half empty or half full? I tend to see it as half full, a positive. :) So naturally, I see this discussion as being a positive learning experience

It's half full and poisonous when you are going in circles.

 

Quote

There is more than just 1 team of navy seals though. Some teams fail, some teams succeed. Similarly, there are more than just one group of Israelites or one group of Muslims.

See what i mean, totally missing the point..............half full and poisonous

Quote

Most Christians failed too, such as the Christians who immigrated to the "New Land" who disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. The Crusaders as well disobeyed Jesus Christ. :( There are Christians however who have and do obey Jesus Christ! :)

Christians failed more than the Jews did. But that's another discussion...............half full and poisonous

Quote

Do you believe King David failed? (I do believe he failed at least 2 tests, but he passed the other tests God gave him.)

We don't believe any of God's prophets failed. They passed their duties with A+ mark. Their followers however.................

............half full and poisonous

Quote

Well, there are people who believe that what the Qur'an says is "totally irrelevant to us if it goes against what we consider to be truth" Neither concept is hard to accept.

Some people such as ISIS say its ok to chop off babies heads too. Again, not interesting for Shias, we have our ahlulbayt and Quran. They go hand in hand, what these two say is truth is truth, everything else is a lie
..............half full and poisonous

Quote

Are you referring to Sura 17? I have read Sura 17.

Read it again

Quote

I see the literal translation as what it means.

One of the weaknesses of Christians....
 

Quote

Aye, because God is the King of kings.

How so?

Also, could you please answer my questions?

1. Do you believe Muslims have replaced Jews and Christians?

2. Do you believe that Muslims can be replaced by another group of people? If no, why not?

Thanks so much for your time.

Peace and God bless you

Guess God has hands too and eats with it......since we have phrases such as Hand of God. ..............half full and poisonous

Anyways CL. Good luck in your research. But you still need to understand 1 very simple thing. Our view of history and historical events are quite different from yours. You don't seem to grasp this quite yet. 

 

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51 minutes ago, repenter said:

It's half full and poisonous when you are going in circles.

Salam Repenter,

Are you insulting me? Regardless of if you are or not, may God bless you, as Jesus Christ commands his followers to bless people.

Quote

See what i mean, totally missing the point..............half full and poisonous

I will not insult you, even if you are insulting me. Why? Because Jesus Christ said to bless, not insult. So, may God bless you again with His pure love. 

Quote

Christians failed more than the Jews did. But that's another discussion...............half full and poisonous

There are Christians and Jews who failed, and there are Christians and Jews who did not fail.

Again, God bless you, regardless of if you are insulting me and insulting Christians or not.

Quote

We don't believe any of God's prophets failed. They passed their duties with A+ mark. Their followers however.................

Thanks for answering my question.

Quote

............half full and poisonous

May God bless you with His amazing love and grace

Quote

Some people such as ISIS say its ok to chop off babies heads too.

ISIS is a completely different topic, yeah?

Quote

Again, not interesting for Shias, we have our ahlulbayt and Quran. They go hand in hand, what these two say is truth is truth, everything else is a lie

That is your opinion. I disagree with you, based on God's Holy Word and who God is - God is not weak; He does not allow His Word to become corrupted by anybody; God protects the Tanakh and the New Testament.

Quote

..............half full and poisonous

May God greatly bless you with His healing love.

 

Quote

One of the weaknesses of Christians....

Jesus said that his followers would be insulted, yet we are not to insult back. We are to bless those who insult us, so God bless you, no matter what you say to insult Christians.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." - Matthew 5:11-12 (NIV)

Quote

Guess God has hands too and eats with it......since we have phrases such as Hand of God. ..............half full and poisonous

May God greatly bless you with His amazing kindness and goodness. Could you please kindly answer my questions?

Again, they are

1. Do you believe Muslims have replaced Jews and Christians?

2. Do you believe that Muslims can be replaced by another group of people? If no, why not?

Quote


Anyways CL. Good luck in your research. But you still need to understand 1 very simple thing. Our view of history and historical events are quite different from yours. You don't seem to grasp this quite yet. 

I totally understand that our views are incredibly different, but I believe we can agree to disagree and discuss differences with respect and kindness to each other.

Peace and God greatly bless you with His amazing grace and love

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2 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

1. Do you believe Muslims have replaced Jews and Christians?

2. Do you believe that Muslims can be replaced by another group of people? If no, why not?

Just because you asked...

1. If by replaced you mean muslims or whoever chooses to be muslim have selected God last and perfected religion, then yes. Islam is the final religion and perfected the religions of God before it. 

2. In religion no, the final religion is Islam. We however believe that in the end of times, many people, including non muslims see the truth and take a stand against falsehood. Many of these people will be Christians, Jews etc etc. And many muslims won't see it and will fail the same tests that God has given us through the ages. This is a complex and long subject to discuss. 

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13 minutes ago, repenter said:

Just because you asked...

1. If by replaced you mean muslims or whoever chooses to be muslim have selected God last and perfected religion, then yes. Islam is the final religion and perfected the religions of God before it. 

2. In religion no, the final religion is Islam.

Salam Repenter, 

Thanks for answering my questions. Of course I disagree with you, but I do appreciate learning what you believe and why.

As for Israel, I personally believe that if Israel in general would decide to obey Jesus Christ and love their neighbors (Palestinians) and enemies (whoever hates them), that God will bless both Israel and Palestine with His peace. While there are some Israelis who love their neighbors, sadly not every Israeli does. :(

Regardless of what Israelis do or Palestinians do, Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies still stand, and will stand till he returns. 

I very much admire and respect for example Christian Palestinians who decide to love their neighbor (Israel) because Jesus Christ commands to do so, like this man, Daoud Nassar:

 

Quote

We however believe that in the end of times, many people, including non muslims see the truth and take a stand against falsehood. Many of these people will be Christians, Jews etc etc.

So basically, you believe that the Imam Mahdi will bring people of all beliefs together? 

Quote

And many muslims won't see it and will fail the same tests that God has given us through the ages. This is a complex and long subject to discuss. 

Aye, but it's a very interesting subject. That's why I ask you questions ( I'm sorry if I have bothered you or offended you in any way. It's not my intention. I'm just curious and I like to express my own beliefs too... you don't have to answer my questions if you don't want. I ask you because I think you are knowledgeable about what you believe)

Peace and God bless you and have a wonderful weekend,  Bro Repenter

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11 hours ago, AvengerAfterRepentance said:

Clear majority !! It's the same majority of people that support oppression on other human beings. That's why they don't get respect when they promote their illegal state. and As for as good and rational Jews are concerned who are against the  illegal state and it's illegal oppression they deserve utmost respect and they even get it from Muslims all around the world. They are the among the real humans who have the courage to raise voice against their atrocities committed against fellow human beings in their name and in the name of their religion !! 

And those among them who raise their voices against such oppression deserve the utmost respect. And I'm sure every such Jew is ashamed of Isreal. As the picture posted by Ibn sina shows you. 

Unfortunately you are too thick headed to have a conversation with and all I see from you is emotionally charged discussions. This whole thread was about how to treat Israelis regardless of their political convictions. You have tried to constantly deviate from the main topic and you have tried to bring me off-topic along with you.

I have told you that the majority of Jews feel obviously closer to Israel and sympathise with it more. Just like most Muslims and Arabs who sympathise with Palestine. Its in no doubt a sketchy topic but we should nevertheless discuss it professionally with reason and facts which has not happened at all on this thread.

I am not entirely convinced Israel is the "Devil", people particularly Muslims and Arabs try to make it out to be. It has it positives and then it negatives. No country in the world immune from Human Rights abuses, even Western nations like Australia, who put 'Asylum Seekers' in off-shore detention centres in the poorest of conditions with abuses being committed on a daily basis.

I have met many Israelis a lot of whom are kind and the friendliest of people out there. They respect my political convictions and opinions and I respect theirs. A lot of them support their government and military, I may not agree with that but I respect that and treat them as human beings.

How would you treat an Israeli or Jewish person who supports Israel and proud of where they come from?

 

 

 

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On 8/14/2016 at 7:17 PM, baradar_jackson said:

He should not have competed with the Israeli at all. He should have forfeited the match. By losing and not shaking hands, it looks like he's petty. And if he had won and not shaken hands, he would have been a bad sportsman. 

 

The "Israeli" running after him to shake his hand reflects too well on that disease of a "country," and we all know how much they seek positive press in this day and age when almost everyone knows the truth about them.

 

This is why any sensible Muslim would simply: forfeit the match. It is the only option that preserves ones personal honor while also preventing them from making it into positive PR.

With all due respect, Brother, I find some of your post to be deeply offensive. Jews are People of the Book who have received The Message just like Christians and us Muslims. As a newer Muslim, I have my eyes and heart wide open and I have absolutley NONE of the poisonous, tainted baggage that born-Muslims carry around with them.

And that several people have "Liked" your post is disturbing.

The Jew is your Brother. The Jew is your Sister. I would strongly suggest that you look deep within your heart to find a way of letting go of your hatred. Throughout our Holy Qur'an, we are reminded of our connection with Jews and Christians. Your obvious hatred is not very Islamic at all.

Moreover, the signature portion of your user account is disgusting.

May God be with you and may you find peace in your heart.

Peace

-------

Q: How should we treat Israelis?

A: The way that you would want to be treated.

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On 8/14/2016 at 9:03 PM, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Would love some responses for this.

My edit: How about in university or work? What if one of the people there happens to be Israeli? How should we act around them?

You mean, those were actually serious questions?

Unbelievable.

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On 8/15/2016 at 0:32 AM, baradar_jackson said:

 

Firstly, bro, nobody is talking about relations between Muslims and Jews. Who said anything about that?

 

Is this about "refusing to compete with a Jew?"

 

No.

[SNIPPED FOR BREVITY]

I am afraid, bro, that you are dancing around your hatred. It is like calling black people "thugs". We all know what people mean when they say "thugs".

You are dancing around like Donald Trump.

Maybe you should try out for the Mental Gymnastics team.

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19 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Come back when you have proper conversational skills.

Excuse me? You ask how we should treat other people and then you have the gall to order me around?

You seriously asked how we should treat Israelis in various contexts.

Let me ask you something. How would YOU like to be treated?

This must be a joke or you are simply trolling.

Just in case you forgot, there will be a Day of Judgment.

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On 8/16/2016 at 9:50 AM, IbnSina said:

DEATH TO ISREAL!

arrest2dop_2.jpg

3-IMG_0179.jpg

 

You do not shake hands with the representative of israel because there is no nation called israel!

This is.....uummmm....I don't know what to say.

How could you be allowed to be part of the ShiaChat Development Team with such a disgusting attitude?

This thread is extremely disturbing and is turning me off from this website. This is EXACTLY what I was trying to avoid. I should have just kept on the blinders and never clicked on this thread.

People like you give Muslims a bad name.

I have one thread to monitor for a while and then I am outta here.

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22 minutes ago, Convertible said:

This is.....uummmm....I don't know what to say.

How could you be allowed to be part of the ShiaChat Development Team with such a disgusting attitude?

This thread is extremely disturbing and is turning me off from this website. This is EXACTLY what I was trying to avoid. I should have just kept on the blinders and never clicked on this thread.

People like you give Muslims a bad name.

I have one thread to monitor for a while and then I am outta here.

Do whatever you want, if you are stupid enough to assume things about me instead of asking me then go ahead.

As I have clarified before: I do not have anything against jewish people but I do have something against the state of israel and the way they treat Palestinians, they way the illegally occupy land and the ideology zionism that their government follows.

And when I say "death to israel" that does not mean death to jews, that means exactly what I wrote: death to israel, the state of israel.

You owe me and apology for assuming bad things about me.

Quick assumptions and eagerness to judge others is what gives humans a bad name.

 

 

@Zendegi @Christianlady

This might be interesting for you.

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Do whatever you want, if you are stupid enough to assume things about me instead of asking me then go ahead.

As I have clarified before: I do not have anything against jewish people but I do have something against the state of israel and the way they treat Palestinians, they way the illegally occupy land and the ideology zionism that their government follows.

And when I say "death to israel" that does not mean death to jews, that means exactly what I wrote: death to israel, the state of israel.

You owe me and apology for assuming bad things about me.

Quick assumptions and eagerness to judge others is what gives humans a bad name.

 

 

I owe you nothing. But you owe yourself some honesty regarding your thinly-veiled hatred.

God bless you and may peace and love fill your heart.

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@IbnSina

I have already seen this video soon as it came out. Besides you don't deserve a single apology from Convertible or anyone here. You shouldn't be getting any in the first place.

When you say "Death to Israel!" in a thread about how to treat Israeli people is really distasteful as I emphasised in my previous post. If someone said "Death to Iran" it would feel the same. A country represent more than just the politics and military, it represent a people, a culture plus religion and heritage. Don't you have any brains to realise this?

What was the point of posting this in the first place? When it had no such relevance to question posed on this thread, which was simply about how to treat Israelis.

You simply don't think for yourself. You copy what others say and repeat the same propaganda on and on like a parrot or robot.

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39 minutes ago, Convertible said:

I owe you nothing. But you owe yourself some honesty regarding your thinly-veiled hatred.

God bless you and may peace and love fill your heart.

So what I said in my reply to you was the same thing you assumed about me in my OP?

I hate oppression and I hate injustice, I am not ashamed of this.

Second of all, if you are indicating that my hatred is "veiled" and that I in fact hate jews, then you are accusing me of lying. Which I will hold you accountable for by Allah.

But if you want to go ahead and say that I give muslims a bad name by condemning a state that practices oppression and injustice and that many of our learned ones, people that know FAR more than you and me, condemn as well, then that is on you and you will stand answer for that accusation against me and I will hold you accountable for accusing me like that.

Do you know what they say after each group prayer in the masjid of Imam Ridha(as)? They say Margh bar amrika, margh bar israel, margh bar engilis. That means: death to america, death to israel, death to england. Do you think that means they wish death upon all the people and that they hate the people?

You have misunderstood the statements, yet again you assumed to hastily and was eager to judge. 

May God bless you as well with clarity of mind.

Edited by IbnSina
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11 minutes ago, Zendegi said:

@IbnSina

I have already seen this video soon as it came out. Besides you don't deserve a single apology from Convertible or anyone here. You shouldn't be getting any in the first place.

When you say "Death to Israel!" in a thread about how to treat Israeli people is really distasteful as I emphasised in my previous post. If someone said "Death to Iran" it would feel the same. A country represent more than just the politics and military, it represent a people, a culture plus religion and heritage. Don't you have any brains to realise this?

What was the point of posting this in the first place? When it had no such relevance to question posed on this thread, which was simply about how to treat Israelis.

You simply don't think for yourself. You copy what others say and repeat the same propaganda on and on like a parrot or robot.

I shared a video with you that I thought you might find interesting.

As far as what you have said and what I have said, we had already ended that discussion earlier.

But instead you responded by repeating old things and adding some rudeness to it. But what can I say, adam nisti, komakesh nemishe kard.

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5 hours ago, IbnSina said:

@Zendegi @Christianlady

This might be interesting for you.

 

 

 

Salam Ibn Sina,

It is interesting; thanks for sharing.

This Youtube is also interesting, as many Iranians, including Iranian Jews, have immigrated to the USA.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me from where a Jewish person or a person of any other ethnicity or religion immigrate. I treat a Jewish person or any person the same way I want to be treated.

Peace and God bless you

 

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Islam, particularly Shia Islam, is based on mohab'bat (love). You open the book of Allah with beneficence and mercy sefat of Allah. The Quran is full of the verses of rahmat and the same goes to our narrations. Our felling towards Ahlulbayt and our mourning for Karbala event even 1400 years after that is another sign of special love which exists in Shia Islam, the love that year by year is increasing. But this love has its requirements. The Quran, the book of mercy, is also full of verses of cursing, verses of "death to this and that", verses of "Allah dislikes this and that group", verses of punishments in this world and in the hereafter etc etc. We have the same thing in our revayat. Ziarat of Ashura dua is a clear example for that. These dislike's, cursings and punishments are not actions, rather reactions. Allah doesn't dislike them in the first place, but this dislike is a reaction which is as a result of their deeds.

There are millions of Palestinians living in refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and elsewhere. Why aren't they living in their own country? Because it's occupied by Israelis. Should we love these criminal thefts? Aren't these rabid dogs (as they consider themselves as it) deserved to be hated? It's not about "a bad government and not necessarily a bad or good nation", as it may be the case in countries like US or France. it's about occupation of a country by some arazel and obash kid-killers.

As for "treat them the way as you like to be treated" or " Don't you get upset if someone chants death to Iran or death to Lebanon?", I must say that these are fallacies.

You are in the battlefield and your enemy is fighting you, what are you going to do? Well, I don't like to be fought, so I shouldn't fight them back !

Death to Israel and death to USA are based on a reason. There are regimes in the world that are source of problems -- US and Zionist regimes at the top of them. When you say Death to them, you are praying and asking God to eliminate these regimes to have a safer place. These are obstacles of peace, so to have an everlasting peace, these obstacles must be removed.

If someone chants slogan against Iran and at the same time has a justification for that (e.g. Iran is a cruel regime, it invades countries, kills innocent people all around the world with various means such as through its drones, creates, funds and help terrorist groups, creates sedition, forces dependent governments to impose illegal and inhumane sanctions on countries etc etc) I can't criticize them, even if this action makes me mad. But I can't be mad at this person, rather mad at my own government.

Those who are opposing the reactions against oppressors through things such as "why spreading hate?"," why not loving each other?", and things like that, knowingly or unknowingly are helping oppressors in their crimes. This sad reality is the reason that we have such an unstable world. Because criminals who are committing crimes everywhere have power to do so, and if they have power, it's as a result of our indifference and worse than that support of some of us, which are seeing some of them here. I don't say they are warmongers, but what they are doing just help them.

These are clear facts that don't need any introduction and examples to be comprehended, and if my post gets too long to explain such clear facts, it's another bitter reality.

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8 hours ago, Convertible said:

Excuse me? You ask how we should treat other people and then you have the gall to order me around?

You seriously asked how we should treat Israelis in various contexts.

Let me ask you something. How would YOU like to be treated?

This must be a joke or you are simply trolling.

Just in case you forgot, there will be a Day of Judgment.

The irony here is that you're treating me with anger. And in your previous post with ego and mockery.

"How would YOU like to be treated?"

 

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On 14/08/2016 at 10:40 PM, David66 said:

Hello,

This "diseased" country is the most stable, most productive, most innovative and most democratic country in the Middle East.  It's citizens, including minorities, enjoy a better quality of life than all other Middle East countries.

I think your words, when compared with facts and reality, reveal a jealous little man.

All the Best,

David

It's also a country which bombs civilians, puts 12 year olds in prison, takes from natives land, breaks international law, takes away farmers livelihoods, let's Palestinians throats go parched while settlers drink all the water they'd ever need, tries to violate the sanctity of the Al Asqa Mosque by letting Jews pray there, builds walls on people's land, has elected a known terrorist as its head of state (Menachem Begin), is supported by regimes like the Saudis, Americans, British and Egyptians, has destroyed many families, dumps Israeli garbage (not including their population in general) into the Gaza Strip taking away Palestinians hygiene, invaded Lebanon in 1982 while they were in the midst of civil war, worsening the situation and inspiring the 9/11 hijackers method of attack, Jews have been reportedly buying up land in IS held territory, wants control of the Middle East and has no right to Muslim lands.

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^ Hello,

On 8/29/2016 at 6:39 PM, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

It's also a country which bombs civilians, It does it's best to avoid civilian casualties.  What other nation gives warning with an inert bomb prior to an attack? puts 12 year olds in prison, Sometimes 12 year olds do something that is worthy of prison. takes from natives land, This is your opinion. breaks international law, Yes, they have done that. takes away farmers livelihoods, let's Palestinians throats go parched while settlers drink all the water they'd ever need, Israel is the World leader in desalination technology.  Why should they not reap the benefits? tries to violate the sanctity of the Al Asqa Mosque by letting Jews pray there, It is land also sacred to Jews and Christians.  Muslims should share the area and allow all who wish to worship there. builds walls on people's land, has elected a known terrorist as its head of state (Menachem Begin), Many call Hassan Nasrallah a terrorist.  Should he step down? is supported by regimes like the Saudis, Americans, British and Egyptians, Iran is supported by Russia, China and North Korea.  Does that make the Islamic Republic evil? has destroyed many families, dumps Israeli garbage (not including their population in general) into the Gaza Strip taking away Palestinians hygiene, invaded Lebanon in 1982 while they were in the midst of civil war, Because of attacks on Israelis from Lebanon. worsening the situation and inspiring the 9/11 hijackers method of attack, Oh really? Jews have been reportedly buying up land in IS held territory, wants control of the Middle East and has no right to Muslim lands. Why is it Muslim land?  Christians and Jews were farming the land 600 years before the birth of Muhammad. 

Many of my questions are rhetorical.  Even so, I think you should look at the Middle East situation in a bit more open minded fashion.  If you gravitate to and circle around the south pole, you will never comprehend or appreciate the north pole.

All the Best,

David

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When bombing Hiroshima, the Americans basically simply wrote that the Japanese should implore the emperor to surrender. They never said we were dropping a nuclear bomb.

She was in an adult prison.

You can't deny farmland of Palestinians have been split up thanks to the separation wall 

When have sanctions been imposed on Israel?

The water they drink in illegal West Bank settlements comes from wells which belong to Palestinians, not Israelis.

Because it is a Muslim holy site. It should be under Muslim control and would be if the British gave Ottoman lands sovereignty after WW1.

Hezbollah paid for damages caused to civilian homes after Israel invaded in 2006. Israelis are the terrorists.

The Russian government is much less corrupt than the ones I mentioned. They have an 87% approval rating in Russia, a 95% one in occupied Crimea. China has hasn't invaded a neutral country in recent memory. The UK invaded Iran twice in the 20th century, the first time resulting in a famine killing 9 million people. Iran has stood for peace in the Korean peninsula. Hassan Rouhani visited South Korea, while the USA was doing military drills and threatening North Korea. How does that help.

Because during that invasion they absolutely HAD to bomb so many innocent people.

Yes, really. Look it up.

Oh, so can Tahiti make a claim to Hawaii based on the fact that Tahitians farmed there at some point in time? What if Mongolia claims the USA? Iranians claim Greece. There was peace between all faiths in Palestine yes, but that was under Muslim rule. These pictures explain the change in situations.

search?q=ottoman+king+quotes+on+jews&cli

Vs today

search?q=menachem+begin+terrorist&client

Those poor, oppressed Israelis!!!

Edited by Mansur Bakhtiari
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