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Abu Hadi

Gay Muslims

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There is a growing trend, among shia women, due to culture and other factors, to regard being bisexual or even preferring women to men, to be okay, normal, and natural so long as one does not act on it.

I have , through contacts and having known brothers whose wives tell them stories/realities about the communities, found out about this reality.

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Why not just say "people who are homosexual and perform homosexual activity without considering it a sin, are not muslim as per the below verse:"

Then I would ask the question, how a person is removed from being a muslim if they have a false understanding of one of the Qurans verses and sin in relation to that verse?

Many muslims have a false understanding of scripture and what Islam truly is.  What makes homosexuals who perform the homosexual activity without recognizing it as a sin, different from muslims who blindly sin in all other scenarios?

If all muslims in the world who have different interpretations of scripture than the OP and who perform actions without recognizing them as sins, were considered non muslims....

There would be hardly any muslims remaining to be called muslim in the world.

 

I think this topic is akin to protestants calling catholics non christian because they do not believe what we believe. Im not a fan. Or Sunnis calling Shia non muslims in a similar way.  Not that I am pro homosexuality, but I think the discussion is being oversimplified in this post.

Edited by iCambrian

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45 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

^ Out of curiosity, why are we defining the word "gay" as something it is not?  Does someone who performs homosexuality but still considers it a sin, remain a muslim?

 

I already defined it above and answered that question. In Islam, someone who either

1. Is attracted to the same sex but does not act on it or

2. Commits the homosexual act but afterward is regretful and considers it a sin and repents and makes the intention not to repeat it again 

is not considered 'gay' or 'homosexual'. 

Someone is considered 'gay' or 'homosexual' if they are continuously doing this action and do not believe it to be a sin or believe it to be a sin but don't believe they are required to do repentance and stop the action. It is action coupled with belief. If someone is in the category, they cannot, by definition, also be Muslim. 

 

 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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28 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

 

Many muslims have a false understanding of scripture and what Islam truly is.  What makes homosexuals who perform the homosexual activity without recognizing it as a sin, different from muslims who blindly sin in all other scenarios?

 

Did you read the quote from Imam Sadiq(a.s) in the first post. I think this will answer your question better than I can. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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45 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

There is a growing trend, among shia women, due to culture and other factors, to regard being bisexual or even preferring women to men, to be okay, normal, and natural so long as one does not act on it.

I have , through contacts and having known brothers whose wives tell them stories/realities about the communities, found out about this reality.

Why do you say 'shia women'?  You mean to say it's just shia women who are turning Bisexual? Would mind elaborating more on the factors. I am curious.

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13 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

I already defined it above and answered that question. In Islam, someone who either

1. Is attracted to the same sex but does not act on it or

2. Commits the homosexual act but afterward is regretful and considers it a sin and repents and makes the intention not to repeat it again 

is not considered 'gay' or 'homosexual'. 

Someone is considered 'gay' or 'homosexual' if they are continuously doing this action and do not believe it to be a sin or believe it to be a sin but don't believe they are required to do repentance and stop the action. It is action coupled with belief. If someone is in the category, they cannot, by definition, also be Muslim. 

 

 

 

But this isnt the actual definition of "gay".  That was why I initially asked why we are redefining the word...

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2 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

But this isnt the actual definition of "gay".  That was why I initially asked why we are redefining the word...

There are lots of definitions of 'gay' (that is part of the problem in discussing this topic). 

I am using the Islamic definition based on how I understand it. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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4 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Did you read the quote from Imam Sadiq(a.s) in the first post. I think this will answer your question better than I can. 

This entire discussion is much deeper than youre making it out to be.

" So whoever submits to (Allah) becomes Muslim ; whoever does not submit to (Allah) is not Muslim. "

This is just so broad and vague. 

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1 minute ago, iCambrian said:

This entire discussion is much deeper than youre making it out to be.

" So whoever submits to (Allah) becomes Muslim ; whoever does not submit to (Allah) is not Muslim. "

This is just so broad and vague. 

Why? If you submit to the will of Allah (swt) wholly, you are a Muslim, if you don't you are not.

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4 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

This entire discussion is much deeper than youre making it out to be.

" So whoever submits to (Allah) becomes Muslim ; whoever does not submit to (Allah) is not Muslim. "

This is just so broad and vague. 

Look up the word 'Islam'. 

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54 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

There is a growing trend, among shia women, due to culture and other factors, to regard being bisexual or even preferring women to men, to be okay, normal, and natural so long as one does not act on it.

I have , through contacts and having known brothers whose wives tell them stories/realities about the communities, found out about this reality.

Why would you say there is a trend?  How many women do you know(through contacts) that are bisexual, or accept bisexuality,etc?  And why is this trend simply among Shia women?  Have you polled Shia men (younger ones)?  Or Sunnis? Or even religious Christians/Jews?

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Would this apply to other sins as well? If someone drinks alcohol and either does not believe it to be a sin, or believes it to be a sin but does not repent of it, would that person also be out of Islam? If yes, OK. If no, why?

 

1 hour ago, Tawheed313 said:

There is a growing trend, among shia women, due to culture and other factors, to regard being bisexual or even preferring women to men, to be okay, normal, and natural so long as one does not act on it.

That's actually irrelevant to the topic as defined. A person who has the urge but does not act on it isn't gay.

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Regarding the OP.  Is it possible to be Muslim while also being gay.  I would think not.  I mean is it possible to be Muslim if you murder people, or if you steal, I would also think not.  But at the same time, I was also told that once you take the Shahada, then you're a Muslim, right?  But what about the millions of Muslims around the world that drink alcohol, don't eat halal, have premarital relations w/ members of the opposite sex.  Are they not Muslims?  Or are they poor examples of Muslims?  I mean, none of us are perfect, and many of us sin knowingly.  At what point do we cross the line from being poor Muslims to being not Muslim?

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How people say people are born with such dirty tendencies makes no sense to me. The Holy Qur'an says that the People of Lut were the first ones to practice this sin. 

Homosexuality is simply a fetish - and there are many disgusting fetishes out there. It is a lust which is given from Satan. One has to resist Satanic influences, it is he who makes you think this is natural and native.

It has consequences such as AIDs and other diseases. It is an accursed sin.

Edited by The Batman

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9 minutes ago, coldcow said:

Regarding the OP.  Is it possible to be Muslim while also being gay.  I would think not.  I mean is it possible to be Muslim if you murder people, or if you steal, I would also think not.  But at the same time, I was also told that once you take the Shahada, then you're a Muslim, right?  But what about the millions of Muslims around the world that drink alcohol, don't eat halal, have premarital relations w/ members of the opposite sex.  Are they not Muslims?  Or are they poor examples of Muslims?  I mean, none of us are perfect, and many of us sin knowingly.  At what point do we cross the line from being poor Muslims to being not Muslim?

If they believe those things not to be sins, then they are not muslim. 

If they believe they are sins, but do them, then they are sinners (fasiq) but still muslim. 

For more information on this, please watch the following video

The Shahada is 'No god but God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God'

If you believe that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and he said something is a sin, then you must also believe it is a sin. Otherwise, you do not believe he is the Messenger of God, or you do not believe in God. Thus the Shahada is null and void, thus you are not muslim. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Just now, The Batman said:

How people say people are born with such dirty tendencies makes no sense to me. The Holy Qur'an says that the People of Lut were the first ones to practice this sin (sodomy). 

Homosexuality is simply a fetish - and there are many disgusting fetishes out there. It is a lust which is given from Satan. One has to resist Satanic influences, it is he who makes you think this is natural.

It has consequences such as AIDs and other diseases. It is an accursed sin.

Are you sure about that (that it's a fetish and they aren't born that way)?  Doesn't Islam recognize that people can be born in the opposite gender body?  Isn't that why Iran is one of the leaders in sex change operations?  

And AIDS isn't a consequence of homosexuality.  It's a consequence of an exchange of bodily fluids with someone who has been infected with the HIV virus.  In Africa, there are a TON of heterosexual men and women who have AIDS.  It is thought to be common in the gay community because of a high promiscuity rate, especially in the 60's/70's, when one man who was a flight attendant and slept around in every city he stopped in spread it.

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2 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

If they believe those things not to be sins, then they are not muslim. 

If they believe they are sins, but do them, then they are sinners (fasiq) but still muslim. 

So if a Muslim has intimate relations outside of marriage, regardless of gender of either or both participants, and believes the relations to be sinful, but due to personal desires does not repent, is that person a sinful Muslim, or outside of Islam?

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4 minutes ago, notme said:

So if a Muslim has intimate relations outside of marriage, regardless of gender of either or both participants, and believes the relations to be sinful, but due to personal desires does not repent, is that person a sinful Muslim, or outside of Islam?

Then if he/she does not repent, they will carry this sin with them into the next life, with disastrous consequences. They will be punished, but they are still Muslim. 

As you know, we as Muslim believe that there are some Muslims who will be in hell, because of the fact that they had many sins they did not repent for. But if they still are muslim, i.e. the still believe in Shahada, they will be in hell for a limited time, not for eternity, but some may be there for a very long time. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Or what if someone is gay, and has gay relationships, and realizes it is a sin, and repents every day, but continues anyway because he has a hard time controlling his desires?  

I mean, all the young men on this board who justify mutah say controlling their desires is too hard.

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12 minutes ago, coldcow said:

Are you sure about that (that it's a fetish and they aren't born that way)?  Doesn't Islam recognize that people can be born in the opposite gender body?  Isn't that why Iran is one of the leaders in sex change operations?  

And AIDS isn't a consequence of homosexuality.  It's a consequence of an exchange of bodily fluids with someone who has been infected with the HIV virus.  In Africa, there are a TON of heterosexual men and women who have AIDS.  It is thought to be common in the gay community because of a high promiscuity rate, especially in the 60's/70's, when one man who was a flight attendant and slept around in every city he stopped in spread it.

First of all gender issues and this filthy sodomy issues are different. Some Shi'a scholars may allow transgender operations to take place, but it has nothing to do with homosexual filth.

AIDs is a consequence of sodomy and similar behaviours - proof is that homos make up over 90% of all people that are diagnosed by AIDs in the USA. Are you saying that sodomy does not have any consequences? That it is safe? That it is as healthy as the natural way?

You mentioned another point. Homos tend to be more promiscous than normal people. Again, showing it is simply a Satanic lust. 

And the fact that many homos are victims of child abuse. Showing it can also be an emotional reaction.

Edited by The Batman

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30 minutes ago, coldcow said:

Or what if someone is gay, and has gay relationships, and realizes it is a sin, and repents every day, but continues anyway because he has a hard time controlling his desires?  

I mean, all the young men on this board who justify mutah say controlling their desires is too hard.

Your question is a very deep question, though you may not realize it. I can give a very brief reply. 

If you study hadith from our Imams(a.s), you will see that there is no clear line between belief and action, in the absolute sense. They are two sides of the same coin, so to speak. 

There is a saying from Imam Baqir(a.s), (I am paraphrasing here) that basically says that a man who kisses a young boy with lust will be severely punished by Allah(s.w.a)(very graphic description of the punishment follows, probably R rated). 

Now if you knew, for sure,  that you would be severely punished by Allah(s.w.a), the Sovereign Lord of the Universe, whose punishment noone can avert, change, or flee from, would you ever do such a thing ? Absolutely not. So the deficiency in belief leads to sinful action, and sinful action leads to weakening of belief. 

 

The way to avert this is to obey Allah(s.w.a), i.e. be Muslim. The good action leads to strengthening of belief, which in turn leads to more good action. The more someone does this, the less evil they will do, as it says in the Holy Quran 'Good deeds obliterate evil deeds'. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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1 minute ago, The Batman said:

First of all gender issues and this filthy sodomy issues are different. Some Shi'a scholars may allow transgender operations to take place, but it has nothing to do with homosexual filth.

AIDs is a consequence of sodomy and similar behaviours - proof is that homos make up over 90% of all people that are diagnosed by AIDs in the USA. Are you saying that sodomy does not have any consequences? That it is safe? That it is as healthy as the natural way?

You mentioned another point. Homos tend to be more promiscous than normal people. Again, showing it is simply a Satanic lust. 

So if a guy in Iran is interested in guys, in order for him to pursue men legally in that country, he has to have a sex change operation and say he likes men and thinks he was born as the wrong gender.  That sounds like finding a loophole to allow homosexuality.  But if you think that's a different issue, I'll leave it alone.

AIDS is not a consequence of sodomy.  AIDS is a consequence of exchange of exchange of infected bodily fluids.  If an infected person wears a condom, he won't spread it.  You straight man with AIDS can give it to a straight woman through regular intercourse.  Even a straight woman can give it to a straight man through regular intercourse, though it is far less common.

The high promiscuity rate in the 70's was largely related to the underground culture of the gay community at the time, which was not accepted.  However I'd say the promiscuity rate right now is probably pretty close to in-line with the heterosexual community that doesn't believe in waiting till marriage.  In fact, if you look at the infection rate of the human papilloma virus, something like 70% of adults are infected with it.  That is a virus that causes cervical, penile, anal, and throat cancer, and you can only get it by intercourse (whereas HIV you can get from sharing needles or even accident).  

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42 minutes ago, coldcow said:

AIDS is not a consequence of sodomy.  AIDS is a consequence of exchange of exchange of infected bodily fluids.  If an infected person wears a condom, he won't spread it.  You straight man with AIDS can give it to a straight woman through regular intercourse.  Even a straight woman can give it to a straight man through regular intercourse, though it is far less common.

Read this: 

http://www.catie.ca/en/pif/fall-2014/getting-bottom-it-anal-sex-rectal-fluid-and-hiv-transmission

And this:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/

And stop defending filthy sodomy if you are a Muslim. And answer why Lut's people were the first to commit sodomy. 

Edited by The Batman

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3 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Finally from Imam Sadiq(a.s)

Know that Islam (means) submission and submission(means) Islam. So whoever submits to (Allah) becomes Muslim ; whoever does not submit to (Allah) is not Muslim. And whoever wants to do good to himself, then he should obey Allah. Indeed, whoever obeys Allah does good to himself. Be careful not to disobey Allah, for whoever disobeys Allah does evil to himself. Accordingly, there is a great difference between good and evil - the good people will obtain Paradise from their Lord; the wicked will obtain fire from their Lord. Therefore obey Allah and avoid disobeying Him. 

Bihar Al Anwar 78/279/1

If you look at the clear ayat from the Holy Quran as well as hadith from Imam Saqid(a.s), you will see that it is not possible to be gay and be Muslim. One must choose one or the other. When I first joined ShiaChat, I never thought I would see the day when there was any kind of confusion on this issue, but apparently that day has come. 

Salam. 

Unless you have a different understanding of what the Quran is saying. Im not saying that the Quran condones gay sex, i dont believe it does, but if a person genuinly does believe that and is acting out of a genuine difference of opinion about what the Quran is asking of people then your hadith doesnt prove he's not a Muslim. Even if he did engage in an act that he knew was probably a sin and didnt repent that still doesnt mean he's not a Muslim. It just means he's a Muslim that hasnt repented.

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2 hours ago, Ali-F said:

Hence a gay is not a person who has sexual tendencies towards the same sex and doesn't act upon it. 

Being homosexual means being sexually orientated towards your own gender, whether you act upon it or not.

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1 minute ago, Ruq said:

Unless you have a different understanding of what the Quran is saying. Im not saying that the Quran condones gay sex, i dont believe it does, but if a person genuinly does believe that and is acting out of a genuine difference of opinion about what the Quran is asking of people then your hadith doesnt prove he's not a Muslim. Even if he did engage in an act that he knew was probably a sin and didnt repent that still doesnt mean he's not a Muslim. It just means he's a Muslim that hasnt repented.

IT MEANS... he is a hypocrite, a phony.

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