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In the Name of God بسم الله

Homosexual ‘marriages’

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People in homosexual ‘marriages’ almost 3 times more likely to commit suicide: study

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/people-in-homosexual-marriages-almost-3-times-more-likely-to-commit-suicide

What is surprising is that there's enough of a sample space - marriages haven't been defined that way for that long, and there aren't that many people who have their homosexual relationships recognised as marriages, so it's strange that there's a noticeable difference in tendency to suicide.

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Could it be that people who self-identify as homosexual are more likely to commit suicide, regardless of whether they are in a committed relationship or not? 

Usually homosexuals are not religious, and often they are not accepted by their families or communities, so they are more likely to despair than the average person. I have sympathy for individuals who suffer from this condition, though I'd never advocate committing homosexual acts. 

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27 minutes ago, notme said:

Could it be that people who self-identify as homosexual are more likely to commit suicide, regardless of whether they are in a committed relationship or not? 

Usually homosexuals are not religious, and often they are not accepted by their families or communities, so they are more likely to despair than the average person. I have sympathy for individuals who suffer from this condition, though I'd never advocate committing homosexual acts. 

The worst of this pointless article is how it tries to point at the fact Sweden is open about homosexuality (without even caring to offer a comparation). I don't know what was the point of the original study nor I am going to pay any cent to read if fully, but what about this article? What are they even trying to say? That gays, who seem more likely to suicide or suffer from mental health conditions, should be denied marriage and opressed/persecuted even more than they have already been?

Gay marriage wasn't the solution of a mental health or suicide rates problem. It was a move done to bring legal equality when it comes to marriage to an oppressed minority.

Moreover, homosexual suicide rates isn't a new thing either. And taking for granted Sweden is a tolerant country for homosexuals is not sophisticated. Spain and Holland also are and there is still a significant number of hate crimes in both countries. We can't forget that it was not until 2009 where gay marriage was legalized in Sweden.

I will leave here a link with information on gay suicide rates that may help in seeing the whole picture of this topic:

http://www.healthyplace.com/gender/glbt-mental-health/homosexuality-and-suicide-lgbt-suicide-a-serious-issue/

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50 minutes ago, HumanForLife said:

People in homosexual ‘marriages’ almost 3 times more likely to commit suicide: study

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/people-in-homosexual-marriages-almost-3-times-more-likely-to-commit-suicide

What is surprising is that there's enough of a sample space - marriages haven't been defined that way for that long, and there aren't that many people who have their homosexual relationships recognised as marriages, so it's strange that there's a noticeable difference in tendency to suicide.

Salam HumanForLife,

That is sad. :(

Have you ever watched Sy Rogers? He used to live a homosexual lifestyle before God convicted him and he repented.

He has helped many Christians who struggle with homosexual desires as well as heterosexual desires that disobey God to understand the amazing love and grace of God.

God created people to glorify Him, not to kill themselves or each other!!! May God comfort and rescue all people who are thinking of murdering themselves, and give them joy and peace and love and mercy and His amazing grace!!! 

Peace and God bless you

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16 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam HumanForLife,

That is sad. :(

Have you ever watched Sy Rogers? He used to live a homosexual lifestyle before God convicted him and he repented.

He has helped many Christians who struggle with homosexual desires as well as heterosexual desires that disobey God to understand the amazing love and grace of God.

God created people to glorify Him, not to kill themselves or each other!!! May God comfort and rescue all people who are thinking of murdering themselves, and give them joy and peace and love and mercy and His amazing grace!!! 

Peace and God bless you

What is a homosexual lifestyle anyway? I see so many using this expression but I have never ever understood its real meaning.

There are wrong and right lifestyles, regardless of what you like or dislike to begin with.

Edited by Bakir
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@Bakir, I may be mistaken, but I think "commit homosexual acts" when I hear the phrase "live a homosexual lifestyle". It differentiates between those who have the tendency and those who act on the tendency. @Christianlady please correct me if I'm wrong.

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13 minutes ago, Bakir said:

What is a homosexual lifestyle anyway? I see so many using this expression but I have never ever understood its real meaning.

There are wrong and right lifestyles, regardless of what you like or dislike to begin with.

Salam Bakir,

A homosexual lifestyle is a person having sex with a person/people of the same gender. A heterosexual lifestyle is a person having sex with a person/people of the opposite gender.

As for right and wrong lifestyles, I am not God and hence I do not make the rules for people in how to live their lives. God is the Creator who made the rules, including the rules for sex, whether we like it or not. I have no say in the matter. I'm just a created being, not the Creator. :)

One thing I am grateful to God for however is that I do not live in the time of Moses, where there were very harsh rules for the children of Israel in regards to certain sins, including some sexual sins. I am grateful that Jesus Christ fulfilled (completed) the harsh death penalty for certain sins, and that Christians are not to kill people who commit adultery (whether heterosexual or homosexual).

It is evil and wrong for any Christian to even think of killing or hurting people who live a homosexual lifestyle. Why? Because Jesus Christ took on himself the harsh death penalty required in the law God gave via Moses.

Peace and God bless you

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As a matter of fact and not to correct you in anyway @Christianlady, saying "homosexual lifestyle" is already hurting and offensive. Not that I personally care, but it's a fact socially speaking. It's discriminatory by itself.

I have never heard the expression "heterosexual lifestyle", but I constantly hear the other one (curiously enough, always used in anti-gay messages). I find it easier and straight to the point to say male-to-male sex.

A lifestyle means much more than your sexual activity, thus it is implied much more when someone says "homosexual lifestyle". When I personally hear it, it sounds as if it was some sort of life in which the person is living in a constant excessive sexual depravation all days (which is true in the gay scene, but most have nothing to do with that).

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I remember before I was taking medication for my psychosis as a schizophrenic I was hearing voices and I thought I was gay. I know that I love women now and I am glad that I am not gay. I think most gay suicides are linked to societal shaming. Before the mass conversions to Abrahamic religions in Europe and Hellenistic West Asia homosexuality was not looked down upon. Alexander the Great, Perhaps the most influential military leader that ever lived was highly likely Bisexual. I am not condoning homosexuality this is history.

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4 hours ago, 6Roman6Catholic6 said:

I remember before I was taking medication for my psychosis as a schizophrenic I was hearing voices and I thought I was gay. I know that I love women now and I am glad that I am not gay. I think most gay suicides are linked to societal shaming. Before the mass conversions to Abrahamic religions in Europe and Hellenistic West Asia homosexuality was not looked down upon. Alexander the Great, Perhaps the most influential military leader that ever lived was highly likely Bisexual. I am not condoning homosexuality this is history.

I highly doubt unless shown significant evidence that there is a link between schizophrenia and homosexuality, especially when it comes to psychosis which has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Suicides among homosexuals tend to have many sources, but most start within the family environment rather than external (bullying and discrimination). It is an educational problem within families. I don't read much on this subject, but I remember reading a case of a married (to a man) british gay muslim who committed suicide after telling his mom he was gay. He, for some reason, needed to tell her after being married for years to a man, and after her harsh reaction he decided to commit suicide. I honestly believe the mother should be able to have her own opinion but some sort of delicacy or tolerance may be good to avoid such outcomes.

In the other hand, telling your parents when such outcome is expectable is not very wise either.

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On 8/14/2016 at 0:51 AM, Bakir said:

As a matter of fact and not to correct you in anyway @Christianlady, saying "homosexual lifestyle" is already hurting and offensive. Not that I personally care, but it's a fact socially speaking. It's discriminatory by itself.

I have never heard the expression "heterosexual lifestyle", but I constantly hear the other one (curiously enough, always used in anti-gay messages). I find it easier and straight to the point to say male-to-male sex.

A lifestyle means much more than your sexual activity, thus it is implied much more when someone says "homosexual lifestyle". When I personally hear it, it sounds as if it was some sort of life in which the person is living in a constant excessive sexual depravation all days (which is true in the gay scene, but most have nothing to do with that).

Salam Bakir,

I am sorry. It is not my intention to hurt or insult you in any way.

Out of curiosity, do you believe the term "wealthy lifestyle" to be offensive? The term "homosexual lifestyle" is not meant to be offensive anymore than "wealthy lifestyle" is meant to be offensive.

As for "heterosexual lifestyle" - this term is not used much but it is just as factual as the term "homosexual lifestyle" is. Similarly, a "poor lifestyle" is just as factual as the term "wealthy lifestyle" but is not used much, since most English speakers would say "live in poverty" instead of "poor lifestyle."

Regardless of English terms,  the fact remains that God created people and gave people rules, not to be mean but rather because He, our Creator, knows what is best for His creation. Those rules include sexual no-nos. It's not my fault or your fault that God said no to homosexuality, no to heterosexual adultery, no to incest, and no to bestiality.

God knows why He made the rules, and I personally believe it is in peoples' best interest. Again, I am sorry and apologize if anything I write offends you. It is not my intention to offend anybody, but rather to obey our Creator who loves you and me and everyone

God can help anybody struggling with sexual desires that are contrary to His commands. God sets people free from their sins, whether sexual sins or any other sins, when they repent (stop) and put Him first instead of any other desire first.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady
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^ The classic explanation around here is that a " lifestyle" usually indicates something one can choose. Did you choose to be straight?

If you believe  that people are born a certain way, it's not a " lifestyle". 

However, everyone chooses how to behave no matter how they were born ( both gay and straight people can choose to be celibate or promiscuous).

Ergo, I don't know what a " gay lifestyle" is any more than I know what a " straight lifestyle" is.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

^ The classic explanation around here is that a " lifestyle" usually indicates something one can choose.

Salam LeftCoastMom,

Some people are born into wealthy lifestyles. They didn't choose who their parents were and that their parents are wealthy.

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Did you choose to be straight?

Yes, I did choose to obey God's commands regarding sex.

Some girls in my subculture are tempted in puberty to engage in homosexual acts, egged on by boys who like watching lesbian porn. :(

While my parents tried their upmost to protect their children, I did secretly watch some lesbian (I don't understand still why guys like that stuff) and heterosexual porn (I'm ashamed about this still) when I was 15 years old. :(I could have chosen to be bisexual, or lesbian, but I didn't.

i asked God for forgiveness for what I watched and repented. I confessed my sin to my Mom and she prayed with me, and I chose to obey God no matter what my flesh desired. I have never ever regretted that choice.

People can choose to resist temptation.

I was a virgin till I got married because I chose to be, and I choose to marry a wonderful man (not a woman) because I love God and respect and submit to His authority. He knows what's best for people, since He made us. Again, i have never regretted my choices to obey God.

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If you believe  that people are born a certain way, it's not a " lifestyle". 

I believe that people are born with the ability to choose to obey God or disobey Him. I believe people have diverse weaknesses. For example, some people are naturally prone to succumbing to certain temptations that don't affect other people at all. One of my weaknesses is sex, and I learned as a teenager that this is a weakness and i have to control it. I have to submit my body and mind to God and obey His rules concerning sex. That's a part of my responsibility to Him, and I am accountable for what I think and do with the mind and body He gave me.

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However, everyone chooses how to behave no matter how they were born

100% agreed.

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( both gay and straight people can choose to be celibate or promiscuous).Ergo, I don't know what a " gay lifestyle" is any more than I know what a " straight lifestyle" is.

I still don't get the terms "gay" and "straight" to describe homosexual and heterosexual respectively.  After all, homosexual isn't more bendy curvy (opposite of straight). And, straight isn't less happy and merry (gay) Those newly changed terms are interesting, whereas the terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" are more clear as to their meaning, in my opinion.

Regardless of the terms, it is important for Christians to obey Jesus' commands to love their neighbors. Jesus did not specify the sexual activities or orientation of who to love; he covered everyone: each other, neighbors, and even enemies.

Jesus Christ also did not mention homosexuality, which is interesting. Granted, he didn't mention incest or bestiality either. However he stressed the importance of not committing adultery and not lusting after a woman (which women can also learn not to lust after men who are not our husband).

Anyways, I am fine with people choosing to marry people of the same gender, since I believe they should have the freedom to make that choice. I'm not for making homosexual marriage illegal because I don't believe Christians or anybody should force other people to obey God. it's their choice whether to obey God or not, same as it is my choice whether to obey God or not.

Peace and God bless you

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5 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam LeftCoastMom,

Some people are born into wealthy lifestyles. They didn't choose who their parents were and that their parents are wealthy.

 

But wealth is an external issue. You can leave it, whether or not you were born into it. Sexual orientation ,in most instances, appears to be an internal issue and it appears to be inborn. Who would chose it in the face of societal disapproval ( which there was tons of until recently). 

6 hours ago, Christianlady said:

 

Some girls in my subculture are tempted in puberty to engage in homosexual acts, egged on by boys who like watching lesbian porn. :(

While my parents tried their upmost to protect their children, I did secretly watch some lesbian (I don't understand still why guys like that stuff) and heterosexual porn (I'm ashamed about this still) when I was 15 years old. :(I could have chosen to be bisexual, or lesbian, but I didn't.

 

Well, I don't know any lesbians that were tempted to be that way by boys watching porn or any porn...and I know quite a few. If you have to be " egged on" or forced into  gay activities, you are likely not gay. 

There is more to the gender spectrum, but I won't speculate on where you would fall, if you are saying you sat down one day and decided to be straight. Most people, like me, do not do that.

 

The rest of your statements concerning personal responsibility I think we are more or less in agreement on.

The theological problem for my Church is that we do tend to believe in science ( although we take our sweet little time about it) and the science currently is pointing towards orientation being inborn. Of course, heterosexuals within the Church have a valid way to deal with that in holy matrimony. No legitimate way exists for the gay members  as of yet and celibacy is the only option. 

Is this fair? That will be an issue our theologians will be dealing with in the future.

 

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1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

But wealth is an external issue. You can leave it, whether or not you were born into it.

Salam LeftCoastMom,


True and great point. One can also leave any sexual relationship,  whether that relationship is with someone of the same gender or the opposite gender.

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Sexual orientation ,in most instances, appears to be an internal issue and it appears to be inborn. Who would chose it in the face of societal disapproval ( which there was tons of until recently). 

 

Again, I do believe people are prone to diverse temptations. For example, some people are more prone to want to have sex with multiple people of the opposite gender, yet are not naturally prone to have sex with a person of their same gender. However, that doesn't change God's commands against various heterosexual acts at all.

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Well, I don't know any lesbians that were tempted to be that way by boys watching porn or any porn...and I know quite a few. If you have to be " egged on" or forced into  gay activities, you are likely not gay. 

I wasn't forced into anything, but I did at age 15 secretly watch "straight" and lesbian porn out of curiosity too after hearing boys talk about it. I asked God forgiveness for both and repented (stopped it).

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There is more to the gender spectrum, but I won't speculate on where you would fall, if you are saying you sat down one day and decided to be straight.

I decided to obey God's commands. If you want to say that's me deciding to be straight, that's fine. I did choose not to pursue homosexual thoughts in any way, or heterosexual thoughts outside of God's commands for sex. I won't ever forget that day, because I do believe that I could have gone down the bisexual or lesbian path starting from that day, and God protected me from those paths because I confessed to Him my sins and repented.

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Most people, like me, do not do that.

More and more young people are questioning their sexual identity as porn and homosexuality becomes more an accepted part of society.
 

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The rest of your statements concerning personal responsibility I think we are more or less in agreement on.

The theological problem for my Church is that we do tend to believe in science ( although we take our sweet little time about it) and the science currently is pointing towards orientation being inborn.

 

Again, I do believe people have natural tendencies to certain tendencies, including sexual tendencies. That's not the issue, in my opinion. The issue in my opinion is the following: is it important to obey God's commands concerning sex or not? 

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Of course, heterosexuals within the Church have a valid way to deal with that in holy matrimony. No legitimate way exists for the gay members  as of yet and celibacy is the only option. 

God didn't ask the Church's permission though when He said no to homosexuality.

While thank God, Jesus fulfilled the harsh death penalty for certain sins (including homosexuality and heterosexual adultery), God didn't say that now heterosexual adultery or incest, or homosexuality, are ok.

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Is this fair? That will be an issue our theologians will be dealing with in the future.

Some of God's commands do not seem fair, to put it bluntly. However, as my Dad likes to say, "Life is not fair." 

Regardless of what theologians or any church says, God's commands for sexual purity still stand. However, the following harsh death penalties for the following sins was completed (fulfilled) through the death of Jesus Christ:

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

And the man that lieth with his father's wife--he hath uncovered his father's nakedness--both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. And if a man lie with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have wrought corruption; their blood shall be upon them.

And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0320.htm

The reason Christians do not kill those who commit adultery or commit incest or homosexuality is because Jesus Christ took on himself the death penalty for all sins.

Jesus Christ showed that we are not to condemn to death adulterers, for example, when he himself did not stone them: 

“Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

 “No one, sir,” she said.

Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

- John 8:4-11 (NIV)

Jesus did not say that adultery is ok. He called adultery sin, and told the woman to "leave your life of sin."  The sexual acts God forbid are still not ok (including homosexuality); they are still sin in God's eyes. Jesus Christ took upon himself the death penalty for sin once for all, but he didn't make sin ok to do. 

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady
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I am very much with you here @LeftCoastMom on that listening to science should be a must. In islamic fiqh this is a must when a marja has to issue a veredict on a field of knowledge that goes beyond theology (medicine, for instance).

In my opinion, negating the inborn aspect of homosexuality in an absolute sense (which means negating there is any inborn tendency to have these feelings and that is a choice to FEEL them for everyone) is more harmful than helpful for gay believers. This stubborn obsession in negating it comes mostly by the apparent inconsistency that God cannot or wouldn't create someone with a sinful tendency. Well, ALL of us have sinful tendencies, many of which there is no legitimate way to fulfill. A homosexual doesn't need to read what heterosexuals believe how homosexuality appears. He already knows, and for many, they can remember such feelings from a very early age, which makes it reasonable that the tendency is inborn (there is just not enough life experience for it being solely a social issue).

However, for a gay to say he was born like this and thus God won't judge him is a clear fallacy. Regardless of temptation (which is worsened by a poor discipline), it will always be a choice. Not an uncontrollable illness. It's not like a crazy person whose wrong actions are not taken into account. For shias, please refer to Al Kafi, 5th volume, the chapter on male homosexuality, where the prophet saww was presented with the case of a muslim man who used to sleep with guys. The prophet asked the ones who presented the case whether or not he had slept with guys at the time and place he chose (in his house). They said yes. So it was made clear that it wasn't an uncontrollable illness that forced him to act, but that he was "enjoying the illness" (as the narrations says). This hadith defines the voluntary side of homosexuality.

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@Christianlady

As to your first point, heterosexuality in and of itself is not condemned. There is a valid outlet for it, as I said.

I personally don't think there are any more people on the non-straight spectrum as there ever have been. It seems there are more because it is safer now to ask the questions which were brutally suppressed in times past. 

The theologians have done nothing against " God's commands" because it isn't a matter of God asking the Church's permission, but the Church trying to understand her mission in the world. At present, same-sex marriage is disallowed and all unmarried people are to remain celibate. However, there is an outreach to gay folks to help them in their Christian walk.

If you truly think people have  " natural tendencies" towards a gay orientation, where does that come from? If from God, then the question becomes not if " life is fair" but if " God is fair"...or just...or merciful. If you are heterosexual, God does not ask you not to have sex..God  asks you to have sex with only one person, your spouse. That's still allowing the orientation. Not so with gay folks. Why is this? Maybe it's meant to remain a mystery.

Some Christians think that people didn't understand human sexuality very well at different times in history and that the Bible should be looked at in this light. Other Christians disagree. Catholics have Scriptures, tradition, musings on " natural law" etc. to contemplate as well as science. So I'm  thinking this will be a long process for the Church.

 

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1 hour ago, Bakir said:

 

However, for a gay to say he was born like this and thus God won't judge him is a clear fallacy. Regardless of temptation (which is worsened by a poor discipline), it will always be a choice. Not an uncontrollable illness. It's not like a crazy person whose wrong actions are not taken into account. For shias, please refer to Al Kafi, 5th volume, the chapter on male homosexuality, where the prophet saww was presented with the case of a muslim man who used to sleep with guys. The prophet asked the ones who presented the case whether or not he had slept with guys at the time and place he chose (in his house). They said yes. So it was made clear that it wasn't an uncontrollable illness that forced him to act, but that he was "enjoying the illness" (as the narrations says). This hadith defines the voluntary side of homosexuality.

I think we will have to recognize the difference between Christianity and Islam here and why it is a big issue for the Church. In Christianity, even thoughts can be considered sinful...often as the deed. 

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4 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

I think we will have to recognize the difference between Christianity and Islam here and why it is a big issue for the Church. In Christianity, even thoughts can be considered sinful...often as the deed. 

In Islam it certainly depends on how these thoughts appear. There are involuntary thoughts that appear because, as far as I know, no one has a perfect discipline. But entertaining these thoughts is another issue if they can lead to haram and it is voluntary in the first place. By entertaining them I mean to voluntarily phantasize. Indeed, most sins start as thoughts, so the Christian approach you mention can actually be good if someone is willing to control his behaviour in any way. Especially in this case I find it necessary. When the body is privated from sexual pleasure, it tries to get pleasure from thoughts, flirty talk, etc. All of them are efforts of our body to reach the same goal. To merely give importance or think in the act is naive, even when the judgement only applies to the act. If any, that's God's Mercy and Patience.

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On 14 August 2016 at 0:06 PM, Bakir said:

I highly doubt unless shown significant evidence that there is a link between schizophrenia and homosexuality, especially when it comes to psychosis which has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Suicides among homosexuals tend to have many sources, but most start within the family environment rather than external (bullying and discrimination). It is an educational problem within families. I don't read much on this subject, but I remember reading a case of a married (to a man) british gay muslim who committed suicide after telling his mom he was gay. He, for some reason, needed to tell her after being married for years to a man, and after her harsh reaction he decided to commit suicide. I honestly believe the mother should be able to have her own opinion but some sort of delicacy or tolerance may be good to avoid such outcomes.

In the other hand, telling your parents when such outcome is expectable is not very wise either.

There must be more to these suicides than simply familial rejection. Plenty of people have married outside of their race or caste and have been rejected by their families, but you don't hear about them killing themselves. As Muslims, we believe that everyone has a God-given fitra, and deep down people who engage in sinful activities know it is wrong. As such, it's hardly a big surprise that there are higher rates of self-destructive behaviours among people living sinful lifestyles.

And by the way, you may find the expression 'homosexual lifestyle' offensive, but it is a fact that a huge proportion of homosexuals live a lifestyle that prominently feature promiscuity and drugs among other types of undesirable behaviour. In the UK, homosexuals have been petitioning to have he national health service fund drugs that would help protect them from HIV. The reason they need these drugs is because they are more at risk due to their lifestyle. Indeed, many homosexuals are proud of their 'gay culture', and now that they have gained more acceptance, they are less shy about defending it.

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13 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

@Christianlady

As to your first point, heterosexuality in and of itself is not condemned. There is a valid outlet for it, as I said.

Salam LeftCoastMom,

True.

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I personally don't think there are any more people on the non-straight spectrum as there ever have been. It seems there are more because it is safer now to ask the questions which were brutally suppressed in times past. 

As a person who is a Christian because of God's love through Jesus Christ, it is hard for me personally to understand why God was so strict with the Children of Israel and had the death penalty for certain things. I'm not judging God; I'm just saying it's hard for me to understand because we live in a post- Jesus' First Coming Era full of God's amazing love and grace.

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The theologians have done nothing against " God's commands" because it isn't a matter of God asking the Church's permission, but the Church trying to understand her mission in the world. At present, same-sex marriage is disallowed and all unmarried people are to remain celibate. However, there is an outreach to gay folks to help them in their Christian walk.

What do you think of Sy Rogers and his ministry?

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If you truly think people have  " natural tendencies" towards a gay orientation, where does that come from?

I think King David vaguely hit where in his prayer of repentance for committing adultery with Bathsheba and then killing her husband. (I know Muslims don't believe that happened, but the good, the bad, and the ugly is documented in ancient Hebrew manuscripts.)

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. - Psalm 51:7

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2651.htm

Personally, I believe King David had the natural tendency to want sex with many women, which is one reason why he married many women. (Another reason is because that's what kings did, though God warned the future kings of Israel not to multiply wives: Deuteronomy 17:17).

Many men especially are naturally prone to polygamy, not to monogamy, though God's ideal is for 1 man and 1 woman to be one flesh, as Jesus Christ confirmed. It is interesting that God did not forbid polygamy, but He did forbid adultery.

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If from God, then the question becomes not if " life is fair" but if " God is fair"...or just...or merciful.

That's a valid question, and I'm sure many people ask it. I trust that God is merciful and good, but I don't know if God sees things in terms of "fair" and "not fair," like people do:


"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:8-9

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1055.htm

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13 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

If you are heterosexual, God does not ask you not to have sex..God  asks you to have sex with only one person, your spouse.

True, though I don't think a command is asking. At least, my parents' commands were never asking, lol! :)

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That's still allowing the orientation. Not so with gay folks. Why is this? Maybe it's meant to remain a mystery.

One of my friends who identifies as a gay Christian thinks that God made homosexuality illegal for the Children of Israel because they needed to grow as a nation: populate, reproduce. Since gays don't reproduce naturally, he believes that's why God did not allow the Children of Israel to engage in homosexuality. He believes that command was only for the Old Covenant, yet he still believes adultery is a sexual no-no, because not committing adultery is a part of the 10 Commandments. That is an interesting thought, but why then is homosexuality condemned in the New Testament too?

Other Christians believe that homosexuality is a mark of more perverse sexuality that goes into a very wrong place, like rape. God knows whether it's just one or a combination of reasons why He forbids it.

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Some Christians think that people didn't understand human sexuality very well at different times in history and that the Bible should be looked at in this light. Other Christians disagree. Catholics have Scriptures, tradition, musings on " natural law" etc. to contemplate as well as science. So I'm  thinking this will be a long process for the Church.

It's important though for churches to obey Jesus Christ. While homosexuality is not mentioned in Jesus' messages to the churches in Revelation, sexual immorality is. (Some people believe that sexual immorality includes any sexual act that is immoral according to God's commands.) Jesus is very strict with them and I believe his messages were written down for posterity so we can learn from them: (I boldened some.)

 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. - Revelation 2:14-16 (NIV)

Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds." - Revelation 2:20-23 (NIV)

Again, I believe churches (including the church I attend) need to learn from Jesus' messages to the churches accounted in Revelation.

Peace and God bless you

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

There must be more to these suicides than simply familial rejection. Plenty of people have married outside of their race or caste and have been rejected by their families, but you don't hear about them killing themselves. As Muslims, we believe that everyone has a God-given fitra, and deep down people who engage in sinful activities know it is wrong. As such, it's hardly a big surprise that there are higher rates of self-destructive behaviours among people living sinful lifestyles.

And by the way, you may find the expression 'homosexual lifestyle' offensive, but it is a fact that a huge proportion of homosexuals live a lifestyle that prominently feature promiscuity and drugs among other types of undesirable behaviour. In the UK, homosexuals have been petitioning to have he national health service fund drugs that would help protect them from HIV. The reason they need these drugs is because they are more at risk due to their lifestyle. Indeed, many homosexuals are proud of their 'gay culture', and now that they have gained more acceptance, they are less shy about defending it.

Yeah, I know about PrEP, and I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea if your partner js HIV positive (moreover, this case applies to heterosexual as much as homosexual couples). However, asking for prep just because one wants to be promiscuous is clearly unjust. That person is accepting risk by following (now yes) this lifestyle.

You are right about gay ghettos and culture. There was even a gay candidate in UK for a mayor position and he stated that one of his goal was precisely to change that cancer within the homosexual community. However, still, I find it generalizing and unjust towards those who are absoluteky against that lifestyle. Not sure what's your opinion on such approach though.

Lastly, you are right about the suicide case. There is much more to it. One cannot accept such life when he is, deeply inside, clearly sure about its sinful essence. To put the blame on the family for such suicide is not only not sophisticated but wrong and unjust. However, you can guess what was the media message on this. We rush (and I include myself here) to feel compassion when hearing such cases but the fact, as you said, is that there is more to it. If one is sure that what he does is right, family rejection may be hard but not a reason to suicide.

However, I feel many muslims facing these feelings in the West still force themselves into believing what the media says instead of hearing what their heart tells them. Is this a move to feel more integrated or to fulfill their desires? I truly don't know. Thus, in any case, they may indulge in gay sex or relationships without evaluating the consequences of it in the first place: spiritually, psychologically and socially.

One must evaluate these three carefully before adventuring into sin:

- We may not clearly know the physical consequences of homosexuality (even though we know some related to sodomy). Ibn Sina (the medic, not the user xD) described in his works several illnesses related to msm. However, spiritually it is still defined as a greater sin whose hadd is death. How it affects us, that may only be known by Allah, but one shall get the idea.

- Psychologically, when you perform an act you deeply and essentially reject within yourself, just because of some propaganda or peer pressure, or simple desire, the consequences may result in depression, panic attacks... these effects may themselves affect you in your religion.

- Socially, it is important to remember your family has no duty to support or approve of your activities. Especially if they are religious and hold to stricg principles.

All in all  I always appreciate your input brother :). This topic is painful to debate because of the great danger in all senses attached to this sin, but I hope that those who are facing these urges may find comfort in God and overcome all the trials they face.

Edited by Bakir
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13 minutes ago, Bakir said:

 I hope that those who are facing these urges may find comfort in God and overcome all the trials they face.

Salam Bakir,

Amen

I believe God loves those who face these urges and forgives them when they ask forgiveness. It's hard to understand why God doesn't automatically take those urges away for some people, but life is a test in many ways. May God bless and help those who struggle with this and may God give them the victory over temptation!!!

Peace and God bless you

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