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Sawa

How do shia feel about Attaturk

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I'm interested in knowing how Shia feel about Attaturk and the secularization of Turkey. I find him to be a fascinating character and vitally important in Islamic and middle eastern history. I believe if arab countries followed the attaturk model, the arab world would be in a better place.

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I give credit to Ataturk for having guts to toke down a centuries old Monarchy and replacing it with a democratically elected institution. Even though they completely lost WW1 with Germany and Austria-Hungary, he was still able to fight back against the British and French and defend the remaining territories closer to home. 

At the same time he was quiet and did not act about the mass genocides and ethnic cleansing by his supporters like the Young Turks committed against the Armenians in Anatolia and even the Greeks and Assyrians who were intentionally displaced from their homelands. A million Armenians ended up dying so did 500,000 Greeks and 200,000 Assyrians in the modern territories modern day Turkey covers and many more fled. 

In a short time he was able to completely transform the Turkish language, society, culture and so many other things to an extent that no other nations leader has been able to achieve ever in history. At the same time he attempted to make his country more European and Western but wasn't as completely successful, must of the country especially the smaller cities, towns and villages remained traditional and overtly religious. 

Problem with Turkey is that they still don't know how to have a balance between religion and secularism, they have ardent extremists on both sides but not as many moderates and open minded folks in the Political system. 

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Salam

Recently, I studied much about Abdul Majid II, the last Ottoman caliph. I read that he wanted to do some Islamic reforms, but under the pressure of the western countries and also Kamal Attaturk, he failed to success. After Attaturk took the power, he tried his best to demolish the signs of Islamic civilization, from the  field of Turkey. He closed lots of mosques, banned the Islamic ceremonies, forced women to leave their Hijab, and tried to remove Islam from the Turkey and to limit Islam into ay specific mosque, which he specified.

Reza Khan (Pahlavi), got Attaturk as his pattern and did such things he did in Iran. People, most of them) hated him and the king after him (Muhammad Reza) changed his way to calm down the Muslim people who were the most population of Iran, at that time and also nowadays.

Attaturk was a western hireling, who put what his western lords wanted, into practice in the Turkey.

Shia hate him like Reza Khan and anyone like them.

Edited by gentleman.

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From my heart I believe takfirism is a greater evil than secularism. Secularism is clear while takfirism uses Islam to justify its devilish agenda. 

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1 hour ago, Ali al-Abdullah said:

In my opinion, he and Erdogan are both extremists in their own way. Erdogan is a Sunni Islamist and Ataturk was a secular extremist. I even read somewhere he insulted Islam. I think Turkey needs to be moderate.

In his foreign polici he's not a sunni islamist at all. The definition of sunni islamist these days isn't clear either.

Islamism should be about unity between the sects and the liberation of Palestine first.

What Erdogan does is siding with both parties and even causing fitna in his neighbour country by supporting DAESH.

That's not Islamism. It's just straight up rubbish.

Edited by Faruk

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1 hour ago, gentleman. said:

Reza Khan (Pahlavi), got Attaturk as his pattern and did such things he did in Iran. People, most of them) hated him and the king after him (Muhammad Reza) changed his way to calm down the Muslim people who were the most population of Iran, at that time and also nowadays.

Shia hate him like Reza Khan and anyone like them.

Reza Shah and his family may not have been explicitly religious but at the end of the day they were Muslims and Shias like most Iranians. Besides Reza Shah is not even close to Ataturk. They ruled around the same time period and met only once in Turkey.

Reza Shah came to power with the 1921 Persian coup d'état backed by the British. Is this the same as Ataturk? Of course not. Ataturk won the Independence War, that’s how he came to power. He was a military genius who understood his military capacity and his own territory. Reza Shah tried to mimic Ataturk but failed badly. His army couldn’t even resist the Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran. He had years to prepare the army for that. Ataturk saved a country that had already lost WW1.

Ataturk brought secularism to his nation through his people. He was not a dictator who enforced them on his people like Reza Shah. Force was the sole way of Reza Shah, and the clash with the clergy opposition became extremely clear. He created a wall between forced secularism and the rising clergy.  He chose to throw away democracy and turn to dictatorship by taking on the role of Iran’s monarch. 

 

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4 hours ago, Faruk said:

In his foreign polici he's not a sunni islamist at all. The definition of sunni islamist these days isn't clear either.

Islamism should be about unity between the sects and the liberation of Palestine first.

What Erdogan does is siding with both parties and even causing fitna in his neighbour country by supporting DAESH.

That's not Islamism. It's just straight up rubbish.

It is so.

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2 hours ago, Zendegi said:

Reza Shah and his family may not have been explicitly religious but at the end of the day they were Muslims and Shias like most Iranians. Besides Reza Shah is not even close to Ataturk. They ruled around the same time period and met only once in Turkey.

Reza Shah came to power with the 1921 Persian coup d'état backed by the British. Is this the same as Ataturk? Of course not. Ataturk won the Independence War, that’s how he came to power. He was a military genius who understood his military capacity and his own territory. Reza Shah tried to mimic Ataturk but failed badly. His army couldn’t even resist the Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran. He had years to prepare the army for that. Ataturk saved a country that had already lost WW1.

Ataturk brought secularism to his nation through his people. He was not a dictator who enforced them on his people like Reza Shah. Force was the sole way of Reza Shah, and the clash with the clergy opposition became extremely clear. He created a wall between forced secularism and the rising clergy.  He chose to throw away democracy and turn to dictatorship by taking on the role of Iran’s monarch. 

 

Ataturk was backed by his freemason elders. Together with his zio friends, Talat pasha and Enver pasha, they committed mass murders against Armenians / Alevis.

Ataturk's body was mummified and this is his grave, images speak for themselves. He was anti-Islamic.

http://www.ataturktoday.com/Resim/MezarOdasi.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/An%C4%B1tkabir.JPG

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Attaturk treated the Alevis of Turkey fairly and was not a secterian like the Ottomans. The Alevis were fairly represented under Attaturk. So i have a more posetive view of him than of the oppresive Ottomans. I heard some alevis even considered him to be the mahdi. 

Edited by Bint Abbas

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3 minutes ago, Bint Abbas said:

Attaturk treated the Alevis of Turkey fairly and was not a secterian like the Ottomans. The Alevis were fairly represented under Attaturk. So i have a more posetive view of him than of the oppresive Ottomans. I heard some alevis even considered him to be the mahdi. 

Oh yeah? You probably never heard of Dersim massacre.

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1 minute ago, celestial said:

Oh yeah? You probably never heard of Dersim massacre.

Did all alevis or just majority of alevis support Riza's revolt? If not your point is not really relevant. The alevis were hardcore supports of Attaturk back in 20s and 30s and untill this day they still honor him and view him as the greatest thing ever from what i have experienced.

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1 minute ago, Bint Abbas said:

Did all alevis or just majority of alevis support Riza's revolt? If not your point is not really relevant. The alevis were hardcore supports of Attaturk back in 20s and 30s and untill this day they still honor him and view him as the greatest thing ever from what i have experienced.

Stockholm syndrome.

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4 minutes ago, celestial said:

Are you a troll? We are talking about my country here...

Being from Turkey does not make you an expert of Turkish history you troll. You obviously know nothing about the Alevis or the Turkification of turkey. 

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Just now, Bint Abbas said:

Being from Turkey does not make you an expert of Turkish history you troll. You obviously know nothing about the Alevis or the Turkification of turkey. 

Enlighten me, please.

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2 minutes ago, Bint Abbas said:

I am not a teacher to educate you dear. Go learn your history on your own.

I always welcome expert opinion on matters.

Edited by celestial

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Ataturk was a disease. We are still recovering from this disease today. Leaders who have no redeemable traits are elevated meaninglessly because of their perceived "modernity." 

I can't respect someone who respects Ataturk. Which aspect of his character or politics do you respect? His alcoholism? His xenophobia? His various acts of ethnic cleansing? His complete intellectual enslavement to Western secularism? His contempt for Islam? His destruction of Turkish Islamic civilization? Pick a poison.

He was worthless.

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Quote

I can't respect someone who respects Ataturk. Which aspect of his character or politics do you respect? His alcoholism? His xenophobia? His various acts of ethnic cleansing? His complete intellectual enslavement to Western secularism? His contempt for Islam? His destruction of Turkish Islamic civilization? Pick a poison.

Attaturk lived in a time of great turmoil for the Turks. He needed nationalism to unite a people that had been utterly defeated and humiliated in the first world war. His nationalism allowed for the Turks to develop a sense of self, and that's important in any modern nation. And he did not have contempt for Islam, he wanted to separate Islam from the state. Having Islam infused with the state and certain brands promoted and having states promote religious laws has led to many problems. Allowing people to have the freedom of choice when it comes to religion and to follow their own path is one of the great things he did. 

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46 minutes ago, Sawa said:

Attaturk lived in a time of great turmoil for the Turks. He needed nationalism to unite a people that had been utterly defeated and humiliated in the first world war. His nationalism allowed for the Turks to develop a sense of self, and that's important in any modern nation. And he did not have contempt for Islam, he wanted to separate Islam from the state. Having Islam infused with the state and certain brands promoted and having states promote religious laws has led to many problems. Allowing people to have the freedom of choice when it comes to religion and to follow their own path is one of the great things he did. 

If i can express my view :

Kemal Attaturk is secular (separating the bodies and the concepts of religion from the states/nation).

Abu Bakar (r.a.) is secular (neglecting the families and the concepts of religion from the states/nation).

Same pattern huh !

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On dimanche 7 août 2016 at 4:51 PM, Zendegi said:

Reza Shah and his family may not have been explicitly religious but at the end of the day they were Muslims and Shias like most Iranians. Besides Reza Shah is not even close to Ataturk. They ruled around the same time period and met only once in Turkey.

Reza Shah came to power with the 1921 Persian coup d'état backed by the British. Is this the same as Ataturk? Of course not. Ataturk won the Independence War, that’s how he came to power. He was a military genius who understood his military capacity and his own territory. Reza Shah tried to mimic Ataturk but failed badly. His army couldn’t even resist the Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran. He had years to prepare the army for that. Ataturk saved a country that had already lost WW1.

Ataturk brought secularism to his nation through his people. He was not a dictator who enforced them on his people like Reza Shah. Force was the sole way of Reza Shah, and the clash with the clergy opposition became extremely clear. He created a wall between forced secularism and the rising clergy.  He chose to throw away democracy and turn to dictatorship by taking on the role of Iran’s monarch. 

 

I think Reza Shah and his son Mohammad Reza Pahlavi were VERY secular muslims but muslims.

But when you see the Facebook of his son Reza Pahlavi i really dont think he is actually muslim and is even worst with her daughter Iman Pahlavi... on her Facebook she insults islam and looks to be a "neo zoroastrian".

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