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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why did Muhammed saw say '12 caliphs from Quraysh'

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:bismillah:

:salam:

The following are my own personal opinions of possibilities (not firm conclusive statements, nor am i speaking on behalf of anyone other than myself).

Recently, i have busied myself with reading tarikh at tabari, which is a 39 volume work, by the sunni historian Tabari. In paticular, i have paid keen interest on his works relating to the Abbasid Caliphs, considering he lived very shortly after or during the life-time of them and either knew many eye witnesses or was present during the events and affected in one way or another. This is very important in matters pertaining to many of our imams a.s and their relationships to the rulers. I sought perhaps, to find glimpses of the truth in his history [and i did].

One thing is for certian, beyond any shadow of doubt, is the recurrence of the claim and right for the banu hashim, and the line of ahlulbayt a.s through them to leadership, even if it is not the imams we hold to be imams. So many wars were fought over this, so much blood spilled. In fact, Al Mamun, the abbasid caliph went as far as making Imam Ridha a.s his heir (deceivingly) to win over shia's. From the Umayyads to the Abbasids, the repression and hatred of the Banu Hashim, and the imams a.s in paticular was for all to see.

I now turn your attention to one hadith of Muhammed s.a.w:

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish. - Saheeh Muslim

I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish." - Bukhari

"I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish" - saheeh Muslim

 

Jabir B. Sumura is reported to use the words 'Men', 'Amir', and 'Caliph' for these twelve.

 

Why did Muhammed s.a.w say 'Quraysh' and not Banu Hashim?

I believe it may be a possibility that, had Muhammed s.a.w stated that the twelve will be from the Banu Hashim, it would have undoubtedly caused far more danger on the Imams a.s than they had already gone through. Imagine if the corrupt rulers realised that the ahlulbayt asws and members of the banu hashim were a major threat to their rule to a degree far greater due to this hadith singling them out?  It would have - possibly - also caused rifts within banu hashim itself, potentially with corrupt members vying for power based on this hadith.

Reading through tarikh at tabari, you can see just how power hungry the ummayads and abbasids were. Many fearing the line of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s and banu hashim as a whole either way. Now if you had a hadith stating that the twelve leaders were to be from the Banu Hashim, imagine the chaos that would be caused and the threat members of the Banu Hashim would be perceived to be ?

I believe if Muhammed s.a.w did say 'Quraysh', and not 'Banu Hashim', it may have been due to his knowledge of future events and how best to preserve and protect the Imams a.s after him. This is only a possibility i think may be the case, and i could be wrong.

Edited by Tawheed313
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I disagree if we go by that logic then by nominating Ali at Ghadir , prophet signed his death warrant.If people we so hell bent against Ali and he was so weak in supporters then they would have eliminated them all  in medina and not let them live

likely this hadith is amongst those invented by the pro-Quriahsi lobby to justify their monoply over the caliphate and keep the ansar and other tribes out of power.This hadith is also not narrated by several pro-Ali Sahaba unlike lets say Ghadir and hadith of ammar death which are clearly of pro-Ali nature 

this was IMHO co-opted by the imami shias later as it used the magic number of 12 to justify their twelver doctrine again i could be totally wrong just speculating 

 

 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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:bismillah:

:salam:

3 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

I disagree if we go by that logic then by nominating Ali at Ghadir , prophet signed his death warrant.If people we so hell bent against Ali and he was so weak in supporters then they would have eliminated them all  in medina and not let them live

I want to say, this is only a suggestion i make as a potential possibility (not even a possibility). It's more me throwing out some ideas, and allowing people to contribute their thoughts. So in this regard, i thank you for your contribution, and i have thought about the points you have brought to the table.

I do feel there are a few elements you may not have taken into account:

I was referring to the way the Ahlulbayt asws would be treated over centuries, by several caliphs, over several dynasties. You see, Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s was oppressed, subdued, and fought against severely when he became Caliph. His son was subdued into making a peace treaty, for the betterment of the Ummah, and his other son Hussain a.s was slaughtered on the plains of Kerbala. The Ummayads instilled the habit of cursing Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s on pulplits, and there was great enimity from the side of the Banu Umayyah to the Banu Hashim.

People could forgoe the right of Ali a.s, despite clear designation at Ghadeer. However, if there was a hadith in circulation which did not just speak about the rightful caliph being Ali a.s, but an entire line of caliphs/leaders/men from the very descendents of Muhammed s.a.w, it would have meant the ummayads, the abbasids, ideed, even some of the rashidun who usurped the caliphat position, would have been far harder on the members of the Ahlulbayt asws, and sought to remove them even more than they have attempted to already out of the equation.

People would have questioned the authority of the Umayyads and Abbasids, if the hadith explicitly stated there would be twelve from the line of Fatima a.s. People already did, question the umayyads, and also the abbasids, but the rivalry, the war, the jealousy, may have reached new heights, bringing harm to  the spread of Islam and the life of the Imams a.s, who were in Taqqiyah.

The only reason Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s was not killed was because he didn't fight. After opposing for six months, and being forced into giving bayah, he took a more subdued position and role. But if the Ummayads and Abbasids knew even more of the population recognised that leadership should be in the hands of the Imams of the Ahlulbayt asws, by virtue of the hadith of twelve caliphs, and that perhaps, the line of leadership should remain in them, (which people did say, and the leaders did know to an extent) it would have heightened what history tells us, was brutal oppression on the members of the ahlulbayt asws by the ruling powers.

3 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

likely this hadith is amongst those invented by the pro-Quriahsi lobby to justify their monoply over the caliphate and keep the ansar and other tribes out of power.This hadith is also not narrated by several pro-Ali Sahaba unlike lets say Ghadir and hadith of ammar death which are clearly of pro-Ali nature 

Ghadeer is Mutawattir. It is narrated by so many companions through so many chains, including many companions who we do not revere and were not pro Ali.

Furthermore, the hadith about the twelve caliphs/amirs/men/ and 'imams' was not a later fabrication. There are a number of chains for the hadith.

3 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

this was IMHO co-opted by the imami shias later as it used the magic number of 12 to justify their twelver doctrine again i could be totally wrong just speculating 

Followers of the Ahulbayt asws, generation after generation followed the imams a.s., each believing the next one was the imam a.s and narrating ahadith from them. We have so many chains and so many compaions , it would be absurd to say, that actually, they all made up narrations and attributed to the imams a.s

It would also be thrown out by both shia's and sunni's to allege these Imams a.s were liars themselves as both sunni's and shia's consider the majority of them among the scholars of their day.

And so, from the 9th Imam a.s, to the tenth Imam a.s to the 11th Imam a.s who was put in prision, those who followed the Imams a.s before them, continued to follow these Imams a.s with exceptions, until the Twelfth Imam a.s, whose birth was made obscure, who was hidden, and from there and then, the vast bulk of shias abandoned calling anyone after the 12th the Imam a.s - who was in occulation.

There were many shia's who split into subjects of the seveners, the zaydi's, the waqifi's, is it a coincidence that the only true and surviving form of shia Islam today, happens to be the twelvers ? 85-90% of shia's are twelvers. The other groups have long since died out, or are consigned to a minority.

I believe that the people who followed Imam Hasan Askari a.s, who was put in house arrest, by the rulers of the time who had feared him and his son, and feared the numerous Ali'D uprisings , were worried that he was not having a son, and what would happen to that line of Imamah after him?

Is it a coincidence, that Hasan Al Askari a.s, happens to have a son, who himself is never seen again? Imagine if Hasan Al Askari a.s had a son, and that son grew up to be old, and that son died [and was seein dying]. That would have crushed the idea of the twelve, and the idea of the Mahdi a.s. But rather, we see that Imam Hasan Al Askari never has a son who himself grows up and has children in public view.

Additionally, we know that the Mahdi a.s will be from the line of Muhammed s.a.w and a descendent of Fatima a.s. We also know that there will be twelve men , and the twelfth will be the Mahdi a.s. according to saheeh hadith in sunni books/inferences even made by sunni scholars.

Edited by Tawheed313
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On 7/26/2016 at 8:50 AM, Tawheed313 said:

I now turn your attention to one hadith of Muhammed s.a.w:

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish. - Saheeh Muslim

I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish." - Bukhari

"I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish" - saheeh Muslim

W.salam, wa rehmatullah, wa barakatuhu.

Brother, you are focusing only on a part of above ahadith while ignoring rest of it. You can never understand any hadith properly if you divide it into parts. And then keep focusing only on one part.

I have few questions.

(1) Hadith says: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs." or "The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men."

Is Islam today in victorious or successful state? or Is it conducting well? As the hadith says, it will remain in that state as long as 12 caliphs will rule? As per shia now its time of 12th Caliph/Imam.


(2) Jabir bin Samura said: "Then the Prophet said something which I could not understand" or "He then said a sentence which I did not hear."

Why Jabir bin Samura was unable to hear or understand some words of Prophet but his father did? While both were present there?


(3) Is there any history book from shia historian who lived during the time of any Imam? I want to learn from such work? Plz share online/download link for that, if you know.


As for as your reasoning is concerned which is based on your personal opinion, I totally disagree with that. If we accept your interpretation for above ahadith, then it will make event of ghadir useless (from shia perspective only). As it was an open declaration for caliphate of Imam Ali a.s, according to shia.

 

12 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

likely this hadith is amongst those invented by the pro-Quriahsi lobby to justify their monoply over the caliphate and keep the ansar and other tribes out of power.This hadith is also not narrated by several pro-Ali Sahaba unlike lets say Ghadir and hadith of ammar death which are clearly of pro-Ali nature

This hadith is neither an invention nor a fabrication. If anyone dont understand any hadith properly or if it dont support anyone's beliefs, then it doesnt mean that hadith is being invented or fabricated.

Likewise, there are so many matters which are not narrated by pro-Ali sahabah, then will you reject all those as well?

Edited by Fahad Sani
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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

W.salam, wa rehmatullah, wa barakatuhu.

Brother, you are focusing only on a part of above ahadith while ignoring rest of it. You can never understand any hadith properly if you divide it into parts. And then keep focusing only on one part.

I have few questions.

(1) Hadith says: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs." or "The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men."

Is Islam today in victorious or successful state? or Is it conducting well? As the hadith says, it will remain in that state as long as 12 caliphs will rule? As per shia now its time of 12th Caliph/Imam.


(2) Jabir bin Samura said: "Then the Prophet said something which I could not understand" or "He then said a sentence which I did not hear."

Why Jabir bin Samura was unable to hear or understand some words of Prophet but his father did? While both were present there?


(3) Is there any history book from shia historian who lived during the time of any Imam? I want to learn from such work? Plz share online/download link for that, if you know.


As for as your reasoning is concerned which is based on your personal opinion, I totally disagree with that. If we accept your interpretation for above ahadith, then it will make event of ghadir useless (from shia perspective only). As it was an open declaration for caliphate of Imam Ali a.s, according to shia.

 

This hadith is neither an invention nor a fabrication. If anyone dont understand any hadith properly or if it dont support anyone's beliefs, then it doesnt mean that hadith is being invented or fabricated.

Likewise, there are so many matters which are not narrated by pro-Ali sahabah, then will you reject all those as well?

No you misunderstood what I'm saying it that this hadith is not the ultimate proof of a pro Alid hussainI caliphate if it was then it would historically be treated as such like other ahadith that have a pro Ali agenda 

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10 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

I want to say, this is only a suggestion i make as a potential possibility (not even a possibility). It's more me throwing out some ideas, and allowing people to contribute their thoughts. So in this regard, i thank you for your contribution, and i have thought about the points you have brought to the table.

I do feel there are a few elements you may not have taken into account:

I was referring to the way the Ahlulbayt asws would be treated over centuries, by several caliphs, over several dynasties. You see, Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s was oppressed, subdued, and fought against severely when he became Caliph. His son was subdued into making a peace treaty, for the betterment of the Ummah, and his other son Hussain a.s was slaughtered on the plains of Kerbala. The Ummayads instilled the habit of cursing Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s on pulplits, and there was great enimity from the side of the Banu Umayyah to the Banu Hashim.

People could forgoe the right of Ali a.s, despite clear designation at Ghadeer. However, if there was a hadith in circulation which did not just speak about the rightful caliph being Ali a.s, but an entire line of caliphs/leaders/men from the very descendents of Muhammed s.a.w, it would have meant the ummayads, the abbasids, ideed, even some of the rashidun who usurped the caliphat position, would have been far harder on the members of the Ahlulbayt asws, and sought to remove them even more than they have attempted to already out of the equation.

People would have questioned the authority of the Umayyads and Abbasids, if the hadith explicitly stated there would be twelve from the line of Fatima a.s. People already did, question the umayyads, and also the abbasids, but the rivalry, the war, the jealousy, may have reached new heights, bringing harm to  the spread of Islam and the life of the Imams a.s, who were in Taqqiyah.

The only reason Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s was not killed was because he didn't fight. After opposing for six months, and being forced into giving bayah, he took a more subdued position and role. But if the Ummayads and Abbasids knew even more of the population recognised that leadership should be in the hands of the Imams of the Ahlulbayt asws, by virtue of the hadith of twelve caliphs, and that perhaps, the line of leadership should remain in them, (which people did say, and the leaders did know to an extent) it would have heightened what history tells us, was brutal oppression on the members of the ahlulbayt asws by the ruling powers.

Ghadeer is Mutawattir. It is narrated by so many companions through so many chains, including many companions who we do not revere and were not pro Ali.

Furthermore, the hadith about the twelve caliphs/amirs/men/ and 'imams' was not a later fabrication. There are a number of chains for the hadith.

Followers of the Ahulbayt asws, generation after generation followed the imams a.s., each believing the next one was the imam a.s and narrating ahadith from them. We have so many chains and so many compaions , it would be absurd to say, that actually, they all made up narrations and attributed to the imams a.s

It would also be thrown out by both shia's and sunni's to allege these Imams a.s were liars themselves as both sunni's and shia's consider the majority of them among the scholars of their day.

And so, from the 9th Imam a.s, to the tenth Imam a.s to the 11th Imam a.s who was put in prision, those who followed the Imams a.s before them, continued to follow these Imams a.s with exceptions, until the Twelfth Imam a.s, whose birth was made obscure, who was hidden, and from there and then, the vast bulk of shias abandoned calling anyone after the 12th the Imam a.s - who was in occulation.

There were many shia's who split into subjects of the seveners, the zaydi's, the waqifi's, is it a coincidence that the only true and surviving form of shia Islam today, happens to be the twelvers ? 85-90% of shia's are twelvers. The other groups have long since died out, or are consigned to a minority.

I believe that the people who followed Imam Hasan Askari a.s, who was put in house arrest, by the rulers of the time who had feared him and his son, and feared the numerous Ali'D uprisings , were worried that he was not having a son, and what would happen to that line of Imamah after him?

Is it a coincidence, that Hasan Al Askari a.s, happens to have a son, who himself is never seen again? Imagine if Hasan Al Askari a.s had a son, and that son grew up to be old, and that son died [and was seein dying]. That would have crushed the idea of the twelve, and the idea of the Mahdi a.s. But rather, we see that Imam Hasan Al Askari never has a son who himself grows up and has children in public view.

Additionally, we know that the Mahdi a.s will be from the line of Muhammed s.a.w and a descendent of Fatima a.s. We also know that there will be twelve men , and the twelfth will be the Mahdi a.s. according to saheeh hadith in sunni books/inferences even made by sunni scholars.

Salam brother I can only comment on events till 60 AH to 70 AH later I don't know anything 

I appreciate you starting this topic it's very refreshing as I enjoy your posts 

Ali resistance was passive but he firmly refused to budge for 6 months and Abu bakr showed no inclination to violence except first day of umars attitude which was clearly impulsive and not predeterminrd 

Thanks for letting me know it is mutawatir I thought only Jabir b samura and abu saeed khudri narrate it

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Fahad Sani 

the great historian  abu mikhnaf who was pro iraqi but not imami shia written everything there is to know about the history of Iraq alas you guys try to discredit him as he does not cook up perfect isnads like others or is not used to lying like the mother who came out on a camel 

 

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When discussing hadiths like this about leadership, one needs to look at the Arabic word that is being using that is translated into Caliphs or "muslim leaders". Sometimes in English even if the word "Caliph" is used, that isn't the word in the Arabic. "Muslim leaders" is using the phrase for something else.

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