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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why did Muhammed saw not declare Ali as at Makkah?

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:bismillah:

:salam:

I have made a similar thread before, discussing one contention our brothers in the ahlus-sunnah have against the shia view of Ghadeer. As you know, our sunni brothers believe Ghadeer was solely a way for Muhammed s.a.w to resolve a dispute about Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s having intercourse with a slave girl , which caused enimity between him and a fraction (a percentage, not all, and we don't even know if most) of the 300 armed men sent to Yemen, which took place around or over  a month earlier involving a dispute in how he handled the Khums. Indeed, many websites are set up with the title of the article 'Ghadeer exploded' or 'Rafidah holywood - ghadeer distortions' or 'You shia rafidah, come here and we will teach you about ghadeer'.

In refuting the shia narrative of Ghadeer, they ask - Why did Muhammed s.a.w not announce the declaration of Ali a.s at Makkah infront of all of the Pilgrims? Why did he announce it to the Muhajiroon and the Ansaar primarily, as well as those who were traveleing north of Makkah to towns other than Medina?

There are a number of ways to answer this - and my thread is not designed to answer this in any exhaustive or even sufficient manner. I believe in order to even approach the issue, one must take into account a few things (i have missed critical elements needed to address the claim made by our sunni brothers. I am only discussing one part)

1. Medina was the place Islam flourished, containing the ansaar and the Muhajiroon. The vast majority of the Sahaba converted in the last one, two , or three years of the life of Muhammed s.a.w. Many were enemies of the Prophet s.a.w for decades, before converting. During the first ten years of his prophethood, Muhammed s.a.w amassed very few followers in Makkah, and was persecuted severely. In Medina, during the next segment of his prophethood, Islam truly flourished. However, many companions still disobeyed him, fled from battles again and again even during his final years, and so the situation was far from perfect. As for the Makkans, many of them were enemies of Muhammed s.a.w for decades. Makkah only converted during the last two or so years of the life of Muhammed s.a.w. It is not as though the people of Makkah was life-long ardent followers. Many in Makkah only converted to save their lives, and because they had little choice. Many still had that hatred for Muhammed s.a.w.  As for the muslims all over the rest of Arabia, who converted during the last year or so of the Prophet s.a.w's life, Islam never truly developed there are strong as it did in Medina. It takes time for such things to happen, and Islam was still in it's infancy in those areas. There was political uncertianity everywhere in Arabia, hypocrites in Makkah. Medina was probably the one place you could say with followers who had been with Muhammed s.a.w the longest, and spent the greatest ammount of time with him.

It speaks for itself that Hazrat Abu Bakr and Umar, in Saqifah, along with a minority of the ansaar, never at all spoke about the right of the Makkans or those from other tribes around Arabia to have a hand in the issue of leadership. Rather, they believed the issue of leadership must be resolved firmly between the emigrants and the helpers, residing in Medina. The first five Caliphs, including Hasan a.s temporarily, all came from the emigrants and the helpers, or those who resided in Medina. Indeed, according to our sunni brothers, all four of the 'rightly guided caliphs' were chosen and eminated from the people of Medina.

If it was sufficient for Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar, and a minority of the ansaar in medina, in the absence of the vast majority of the sahaba to choose , in secret the next leader, why do people question if Muhammed s.a.w declared infront of all of the sahaba who came with him, including the people who may have traveled north of Medina as well (to other parts of arabia) that Ali a.s is the rightful leader inbetween makkah and medina? 

 

Reading through Tarikh At Tabari, i have also found a very interesting narration.

"Abd al- Raluman b. 'Awf came to me saying, "Today I saw a man1307 who came to the Commander of the Faithful [i.e., Umarj and said, 'I have heard so-and-so' saying: If the Commander of the Faithful is dead I would give my oath of allegiance to so-and- so,"-309 The Commander of the Faithful said that he would get up among the people that evening and warn them against the group of people who want to usurp their power." I said, "0 Commander of the Faithful, the pilgrimage brings together the riffraff and the rabble; they are the ones who will dominate over your assembly. I am afraid lest you should say something today which they might neither heed, nor remember, nor put it in its context and spread it everywhere; so wait until you come to Medina [which is)  the place of refuge [dnr al-hijrah] and a seat of the sunnah. [There] you can confer privately with the Messenger of God's companions, both the Emigrants and the Ansdr. You i can say what you will with firmness, they will retain your words and interpret them properly." He replied, "By God, I will do it at the first opportunity which I get in Medina."

Points to make about the above:

One of the lovers of Hazrat Umar , and his close companion, tells him to wait before giving a speech on a crucial matter pertaining to leadership after him. His logic being during the Hajj, there are many who assemble from all over arabia, as well as the people of Makkah, among whom are people who may be hypcorites or misunderstand his word, or not take heed, or distort it for one reason or another or cause mischief (this is my intepretation). He therefore advises him to wait until he reaches Medina, so he can declare this important issue to the people who he deems to be far mor recipient, living in the 'seat of the Sunnah'. Therefore, Hazrat Umar himself waits till he reaches Medina, before giving this speech.

If Hazrat Umar, and his companion recognize the volatile political climate, the fact that hajj gathers people who are capable of causing mischief and chaos and distorting words and spreading vitriol, and that it would be better to convey the important words of leadership to the absolute centre of the muslim community in the land where Islam flourished the most, i say, why can't Muhammed s.a.w do likewise ?

Furthermore , Muhammed s.a.w did not declare Ali a.s at Medina, but on the way to Medina. There were still many companions and groups who would have travelled to areas north of Medina and journeyed with him. There may have been wisdom in thus, not declaring it at the Hajj in Makkah.

I am not assuming it was the reason, merely having a discussion on the potential possibilities.

 

Edited by Tawheed313
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Just to add, in Saqifah, Hazrat Abu Bakr argued that the arabs would not recognise a leader save a man from the Quraysh.

[This i contained in Tabari, Bukhari too i believe, Or muslim]

"He said: 'Now then: 0 men of the Anjar, you deserve all the fine qualities that you have mentioned about yourselves, but the Arabs will not recognize this authority except in this clan of Quraysh, for they represent the best in lineage and standing"

If Hazrat Abu Bakr, in the Saqifah, away from the vast majority of the sahaba, gathered together in secrecy, deemed it acceptable to choose a leader for the entire arabian peninsula and Ummah, so long as they were from the Quraysh, arguing they would only accept from the Quyaysh due to liniege and standing - why do people say that Ghadeer can not be about leadership, because it was done between Makkah and Medina, infront of the Muhajiroon and Ansaar, and others who may have travelled with them and those going north of Medina or in the direction of travel ? Indeed, when Muhammed s.a.w declared Ali a.s at ghadeer it was out in the open, infront of tens of thousands at the very least.

And on another point, if being from the Quraysh is one of the qualities Hazrat Abu Bakr argued was essential for the leader after Muhammed s.a.w due to liniege and respect, what of a man who was from the Banu Hashim? Put that aside, what about a man who was the cousin of Muhammed s.a.w, his father being the brother of the Father of the Prophet of Allah , coming from the very same mother! No other cousin of Muhammed s.a.w did he share from an uncle who came from the same mother as his father! What of the one who even married the daughter of the Prophet s.a.w! No-one alive had a greater right to being the caliph, if we go by Hazrat Abu Bakrs argument about liniege.

And if he knew and had already prepared this speech or had in his mind his argument, it begs the question as to why he did not consider taking a man most qualified in terms of liniege - Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s.

What did he know that stopped him from doing so?

 

If you are okay with Hazrat Abu Bakr being chosen in secrecy away from the majority of the sahaba in saqifah, why do you complain when Muhammed s.a.w publicly declared to tens, if not hundreds of thousands of companions between makkah and medina on the day of ghadeer. Not only that, Ali ibn abi Talib a.s by Hazrat Abu Bakr's own argument of liniege, had far more of a right to being the caliph!

Edited by Tawheed313
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25 minutes ago, celestial said:

I'm... speechless.

Man, you try so hard.

Could you kindly not derail my thread ? I have spent an enormous ammount of time and effort in writing and researching this post. If i use Hazrat after their names, it is not out of honour of them. There is wisdom to what i am doing here. I have also not added 'radiyallahu anhu'. I am doing this based on what i had learned from a respectable alim from my mosque.

If by adding 'Hazrat' i can stop a few more mass shootings and vitriol and save lives, i'll add it in. To me, it means nothing.

Before criticising me, consider if you have spent even a tenth of your time defending our madhab and refuting actions of certian caliphs?

Edited by Tawheed313
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2 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

If by adding 'Hazrat' i can stop a few more mass shootings and vitriol and save lives, i'll add it in. To me, it means nothing.

Oh yeah, I heard Abu Bakr Baghdadi reads shiachat and very impressed with your posts. He ordered some of the captives to be not put in acid baths, rather he decided that they'll be beheaded as a demonstration of mercy.

Edited by celestial
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5 minutes ago, celestial said:

Oh yeah, I heard Abu Bakr Baghdadi reads shiachat and very impressed with your posts. He ordered some of the captives to be not put in acid baths, rather he decided that they'll be beheaded.

What you have done today is hijack a thread designed to defend the honour of Ali a.s against false accusations pertaining to his rightful wilayah and leadership, and are derailing it.

By the right of Muhammed and ale Muhammed desist in what you are doing.

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It's a good question I personally think that Ali was a great candidate due to his kinshop achievements and knowledge even without the divine coronation at ghadir as shias believe.

I think in later times ghadir importance was exaggerated and that's why it wasn't at medina 

infact nomination of Ali in Medina makes more sense as it was city of ansar who generally supported Ali 

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On 7/24/2016 at 9:17 PM, celestial said:

Oh yeah, I heard Abu Bakr Baghdadi reads shiachat and very impressed with your posts. He ordered some of the captives to be not put in acid baths, rather he decided that they'll be beheaded as a demonstration of mercy.

Why do you engage in passive-aggresiveness? An emotional response automatically gets hold of you in relation to this topic. If you have nothing regarding the actual topic, then personally I would just say nothing. 

Edited by humanbeing101
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The point is Rasool Allah doesn't speak by his own but when he gets Wahi or Order from Allah. Without any doubts it was Allah's will to declare Hazrat Ali as Mola to all Muslim at Ghadeer e Khum 'again'. As Ghadeer e Khum was not only just the single place where Prophet Mohammad declares Hazrat Ali a.s as his Caliphate. The Dawat-e-Zul Ashira was the First occasion when for the first time Prohet Muhammad s.a.w.w declared hazrat Ali a.s as his Caliphate.
So for the true seeker The marks can be found everywhere. And many times during his life the Prophet pbuh said Ali (a.s) is to me as Haroon (a.s) was to Musa (a.s), though there will be no prophet after me.

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18 hours ago, Mohsin Abbas Haidery said:

The point is Rasool Allah doesn't speak by his own but when he gets Wahi or Order from Allah. Without any doubts it was Allah's will to declare Hazrat Ali as Mola to all Muslim at Ghadeer e Khum 'again'. As Ghadeer e Khum was not only just the single place where Prophet Mohammad declares Hazrat Ali a.s as his Caliphate. The Dawat-e-Zul Ashira was the First occasion when for the first time Prohet Muhammad s.a.w.w declared hazrat Ali a.s as his Caliphate.
So for the true seeker The marks can be found everywhere. And many times during his life the Prophet pbuh said Ali (a.s) is to me as Haroon (a.s) was to Musa (a.s), though there will be no prophet after me.

MashaAllah, what a great post. The OP is too much into himself and he keeps on missing the Holy Quran, where the Prophet was advised to do as such by Allah.

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL : Chapter 5, verse 67

O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.

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On 7/25/2016 at 0:19 AM, Tawheed313 said:

What you have done today is hijack a thread designed to defend the honour of Ali a.s against false accusations pertaining to his rightful wilayah and leadership, and are derailing it.

By the right of Muhammed and ale Muhammed desist in what you are doing.

Muhaa Muhaa, No you are not defending the honor of Imam Ali. What you are doing is making threads after threads and ignoring the Holy Quran. I really feel sorry for you.

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8 minutes ago, BornShia said:

MashaAllah, what a great post. The OP is too much into himself and he keeps on missing the Holy Quran, where the Prophet was advised to do as such by Allah.

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL : Chapter 5, verse 67

O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.

Brother in Islam, i clearly stated in my OP that there were other significant elements as to why the Prophet s.a.w announced when he did.

This Ayah, a beautiful Ayah, is probably the most important one. He did as Allah azwj commanded him to do so. In fact, i have read the entire tafseer of that Ayah by Alama Tabatabari(rh). It is a wonderful tafseer, and i recommend you read it, if you haven't already.

I did not miss the Quran, but my focus was more on some of the other geographical objections raised by sunni brothers/sisters.

 

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5 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

Brother in Islam, i clearly stated in my OP that there were other significant elements as to why the Prophet s.a.w announced when he did.

This Ayah, a beautiful Ayah, is probably the most important one. He did as Allah azwj commanded him to do so. In fact, i have read the entire tafseer of that Ayah by Alama Tabatabari(rh). It is a wonderful tafseer, and i recommend you read it, if you haven't already.

I did not miss the Quran, but my focus was more on some of the other geographical objections raised by sunni brothers/sisters.

Well if you have read the tafsir, then you would know that:

1. The Prophet did announce it in Mecca at the pilgrimage, but you keep on ignoring it.

2. Do you know when Hadith al-Thaqlayn announced? Was it not in Mecca at the pilgrimage, but you keep on ignoring it.

3. Allah knew they will twist Hadith al-Thaqlayn, so the verse 5:67 was revealed on the way to Ghadeer.

4. Why are you not showing the full picture?

5. What is your motive?

6. Why are you dividing one event Mecca/Ghadeer into two separate events?

7. Why are playing the Sunni game?

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Tawheed313
I am actually inspired by your blogs
Can I have a contact with you to know more about Shi'iat ?

YOu do a lot of hard work and that shines in your debates
I want a messaging contact
Most probable facebook 
If you can help me ... plz
I am 17 and I am building my beliefs but I also need whats true and whats wrong ...who's is on right path and who's on wrong 
SO plz :)

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Why did Muhammed saw not declare Ali as at Makkah?
 

This is a good question for which people give a variety of answers including the opinion in the OP. There were too many mischief-mongers in Mecca.

One thing people often forget and IMHO is the primary reason for waiting until after the hajj was over is that this was the first and last hajj of the Prophet. As such, he was busy leading and teaching the muslims the rules/regulations/DOs/DONTs of hajj.

Doing it stand alone and separately from hajj has caused so much confusion and division amongst the Ummah. Imagine if he did annnounce it during hajj. Additionally, it would give all the deniers of Ghadeer the perfect excuse - oh I was doing tawaf, oh I was in sa'ee, etc, etc. Of course, we would get the excuse that "Ali is our mawla during hajj only since that is where it was announced"

It had to be done as a separate and independent event.

 
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