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In the Name of God بسم الله
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"The two feet of Allah are above his foot-stool"

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:bismillah:

:salam:

IMPORTANT NOTE: Do not come onto my thread to send sa'b or la'nah or abuse towards salafi's. Do not come here to spread jibes. Come and make a considered and academic comment, or do not post at all. We are the madhab of the ahlulbayt asws. Our standards are thus , higher than that.  If i have seemed critical of ideas, i hope i have kept within limits.

To many of the shia brothers and sisters here, as well as some groups among our brothers and sisters of the ahlus-sunnah, the title may seem like blasphemy. However, this belief is held by those in the salafi madhab, or those of other schools who have a strong deep love for 'Shayk al Islam' , Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Baz, Ibn Uthaymeen, who are the heavy weights and loved dearly in the salafi-sect. So far have they gone from true Tawheed, that a number of scholars from the ahlus-sunnah wal jamaa'h, have warned against these interpretations made by them. 

IslamQa, is a website, which relies heavily on the words of the salafi scholar (extremely highly respected) shayk Uthaymeen, as well as the writings of the notorious, 'shayk al Islam' Ibn Tamiyyah. Now, when you confront a salafi brother, they recognise that logically speaking, what i am about to share to you goes against the intellect, reasoning, and any stretch of common sense. However, what they say is 'we can not use logic, or our minds with Allah azwj'. This is a very clever statement, and an excellent way to escape the reality of this problematic belief. However, while we shia's also agree that with regards to the 'reality' of Allah azwj, one can never discuss it, for he is above all comprehension, we can, using our minds and the Quran, rule out absurd qualities which are falsely attributed to him. 

You see, a christian can tell you, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father is God, and these are not three but all one, and that we should just have faith, and understand God can not be comprehended and our 'limited minds can not comprehend how'.  I often encourage shia's not to press on Imamah, Ahlulbayt, Ghadeer, but take them on with regards to Tawheed first. I have debated owners of salafi-websites who post these long refutations about shia Islam, and post lengthy rijal explanations, but they are utterly stumped when discussing Tawheed. I say this not to disrespect any salafi-brothers, or boast, for it is not on my hand, but all due to the fitrah a human being has, and the path of Muhammed wa ale muhammed asws who saved us from these problematic teachings.

Some of them accuse of of shirk, abuse us and call us mushriks, the people of kufr and b'idah, but believe Allah azwj has two eyes, two feet, two hands, a shin, fingers (though they add the clause 'not like ours'), and his feet are between the footstool and the waters, and that he descends (in a way that befits him) to the lowest heaven , and that he literally rose. They believe he will put his feet into hell. Anytime you are accused of being a mushrik, or the people of shirk, i want you to press home (in a RESPECTFUL way - we are not animals) these points:

 

Truly, christianity and also the salafi-sect have used this excuse to devastating effect. However, your fitrah , the Quran, and any rational minds understanding of Allah azwj is that:

1. He can not be divided into parts. He is one, and unified in his oneness. He can not be said to be made up of constituent parts via essence. I could also worship the 'foot' of Allah azwj and still claim i do not worship anyone save Allah azwj. Such absurdities are an insult to Tawheed.

2. He can not be contained within his creation, or above, or below it. He existed before there was a 'where' and hence 'where' does not apply to him. It is problematic to even ask 'where is Allah'. 'Where' does not apply to him.

3. Ahadith which describe him having feet - but not like ours- coincidently 'above the foot-stool' ,which 'creaks' are nothing more than forgeries attributed to Muhammed s.a.w. 

4. According to the salafi-sect, The two feet of Allah azwj are above the foot-stool (which 'creaks like a saddle creaks'). Furthermore, the feet are below the waters, and below the seven heavens, and Allah azwj (or the rest of him) is above his throne, above the seven heavens).

 

From the salafi-website, IslamQA:

"https://islamqa.info/en/166843

"Affirmation Allah has two feet" 

One of the confirmed attributes of Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, is the foot. 

The evidence for that is the report narrated by al-Bukhaari (6661) and Muslim (2848) from Anas ibn Maalik, according to which the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Hell will keep saying, ‘Are there any more (to come)?’ until the Lord of Glory, may He be blessed and exalted, places His foot on it, then it will say, ‘Enough, enough, by Your glory!’ And all its parts will be integrated together. 

....

This indicates that it is confirmed that Allah, may He be exalted, has a foot.  Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “The Kursiy (foot stool) is the place of the two feet, and the size of Throne cannot be known.” 

...

Abu Moosa al-Ash‘ari (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Kursiy is the place for the two feet, and it creaks as a saddle creaks. 

Narrated by ‘Abdullah ibn al-Imam Ahmad in as-Sunnah; Ibn Abu Shaybah in al-‘Arsh, 60; and by Ibn Jareer, al-Bayhaqi and others. Its isnaad was classed as saheeh in al-Fath, 8/47 and by al-Albaani inMukhtasar al-‘Uluw, p. 123-124 

These two reports confirm that Allah, may He be exalted, has two feet, and this is the belief of Ahl as-Sunnah. (MY OWN NOTE - THIS IS NOT THE IJMA OF THE AHLUS SUNNAH, BUT A BELIEF MAINLY OF THE SALAFI-SECT. OUR AHLUS-SUNNAH BROTHERS/SISTERS HAVE TO SAVE THEIR MADHAB FROM THIS)

 

 

 

 

 

 

QURAN: " Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!"

Edited by Tawheed313

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Another issue is the phrase "hand".

http://www.medinaminds.com/use-phrase-hand-quran/

This page is a list of all the uses of the term hand in the Quran, and it shows the contexts and different uses.

Why do the salafis insist on taking figurative speech literally?

it's beyond me or reason, but its important to expose this bidah of theirs, and advise them to adopt the path of Tauheed as taught by the Quran and explained by the Ahl Bayt AS.

 

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I am not a Salafi and i have not researched much about what they say on such matters. But i have many post with arguments on the same lines and many a times text of ahlus sunnah comes under question. The basic problem with all such posts is that the overall point of view is skipped. Let me try to explain.

1. Allah talah is nothing like His creation  "laisaka mislihi shai".

Then, we read in Quran

2. 38|75|He said, “O Satan, what prevented you from prostrating before what I created with My Own hands?...

And the word bi'yadii is there... so then are not we going to recite and say 'bi'yadii'? Yes, we will read and say this because this is what the quran tells. 

YET, what we understand on the other side that he is unimaginable and unlike His creation so we are not going to define it either like those Shii who say that Allah is intangible or perhaps those salafis who think that the hands are something necessarily tangible.

Because saying either of the two mean that you understand how He is like. You have begun to define Allah Talah. Whereas, we say that we cannot actually know or claim that when Allah talks about his hand... whether it is really (a) figurative or (b) physical or (c) something else (easily a third category) but we can only confirm what is in the Quran without confirming with conviction its actual form for the reason that He and His attributes are beyond our imagination.

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3 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

 

I am not a Salafi and i have not researched much about what they say on such matters. But i have many post with arguments on the same lines and many a times text of ahlus sunnah comes under question. The basic problem with all such posts is that the overall point of view is skipped. Let me try to explain.

 

Do Ahlul Sunnah believe like ibn Taymiyyah that Ayat al-Kursi means it about about Allah's Foot-stool?

To Shia, Kursi and Arash means the same thing, does Ahlul Sunnah believe it is not the same thing?

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Because saying either of the two mean that you understand how He is like.

In what part of figurative we can even understand how He is like? In what part of Merciful we can even understand how He is like? 

Indeed, those who pledge allegiance to you, [O Muhammad] - they are actually pledging allegiance to Allah . The hand of Allah is over their hands. So he who breaks his word only breaks it to the detriment of himself. And he who fulfills that which he has promised Allah - He will give him a great reward.

Blessed is He in whose hand is dominion, and He is over all things competent .

In Your hand is [all] good. Indeed, You are over all things competent.

Sometimes it is self evident that Statement can only mean in figurative manner. But no one understand of Allah (swt) Hand, but only Himself.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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6 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

I am not a Salafi and i have not researched much about what they say on such matters. But i have many post with arguments on the same lines and many a times text of ahlus sunnah comes under question. The basic problem with all such posts is that the overall point of view is skipped. Let me try to explain.

1. Allah talah is nothing like His creation  "laisaka mislihi shai".

Then, we read in Quran

2. 38|75|He said, “O Satan, what prevented you from prostrating before what I created with My Own hands?...

And the word bi'yadii is there... so then are not we going to recite and say 'bi'yadii'? Yes, we will read and say this because this is what the quran tells. 

YET, what we understand on the other side that he is unimaginable and unlike His creation so we are not going to define it either like those Shii who say that Allah is intangible or perhaps those salafis who think that the hands are something necessarily tangible.

Because saying either of the two mean that you understand how He is like. You have begun to define Allah Talah. Whereas, we say that we cannot actually know or claim that when Allah talks about his hand... whether it is really (a) figurative or (b) physical or (c) something else (easily a third category) but we can only confirm what is in the Quran without confirming with conviction its actual form for the reason that He and His attributes are beyond our imagination.

I think your missing the point. Have a read of the post directly above yours, there is a link. In it, there are about 100 quotes of the Quran using the phrase "hands".

Anyone who reads the Quran cover to cover regularly knows that most of the time the phrase hands is used figuratively, just like if I say, "its out of the computer's hands". We all know what this means, when we communicate we dont take the literal value of individual words, we take the apparent meaning of the phrase or sentence.  There is a big difference. If you deny this, then you are being irrational and denying the reality of communication.

What you are doing is denying this, and saying that Allah's words are meaningless and there is no meaning to His phrases. This can not be the correct position.

 

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I am not a salafi follower so here I am not defending them. I am just giving my views based on my understanding.

Allah says in Quran.

وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ
There is nothing like him.

You cannot compare anything with Allah. He is unique in everything.

The hadeeth of the foot of Allah should be understood exactly as one understands the two hands of Allah in this Ayah:

[38:75] The Lord said, "O Iblis, what has prevented you from prostrating yourself before him whom I have made with both My hands?
 
These words have been used to point out the honor, rank and glory bestowed on man by his Creator. In other words, Allah did not get man created through his angels but created him Himself because his creation was a highly noble task. Therefore, what is meant to be said is: "What has prevented you from prostrating yourself before him whom I have made directly Myself?"

The words "both hands" probably are meant to refer to the fact that this new creation combines in itself two important aspects of Allah's power of creation: (1) That man has been given an animal body on account of which he belongs to the animal kingdom; and (2) that on account of the Spirit breathed into him, he has been characterized with qualities which place him in honor and merit above all earthly creations and creatures.  

If hands can be metaphorical, so can the feet. One can metaphorise anything.

Even in daily conversations we do the same.

For example: 'Your life is in my hands' or X country is in hand of Y country (Meaning in control).
'The sky was dark and angry.' 'I think this will throw some light on the issue.' 'Waves of disappointment swept over him.'

But, if anyone attribute such unspecific things in literal meaning to Allah and compare Him with His creation then such person in seriously in big error.

Allah says in Aal Imran - 7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.


Allah KNOWS BEST.

Edited by Fahad Sani

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20 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

x

:salam:

I hope you are doing well my brother.

According to our salafi brothers, the two feet of Allah azwj are his literal attributes, and not metaphorical. Although they say that the two feet of Allah azwj are not like our feet, as there is nothing like Allah azwj, there are still a number of problems with this belief - as stated in the OP. I will bullet point:

1. Allah azwj is Ahad, one in his unified oneness. He can not be divided into constituent parts, would you not agree? For example, one can not say, Allah azwj is divided into the hands, eyes, feet, shin, fingers (but they are not like ours). Furthermore, if one were to divide Allah azwj into parts , you could argue that one could worship the two feet of Allah azwj - and still claim that they are worshipping Allah azwj.

2. Additionally, there are some ahadith authenticated by major scholars (check my original post for them) verified by IslamQa, which state that the two feet of Allah azwj are above the footstool. IslamQa also states the Qursi(footstool) is below the waters, which is below the throne. Therefore it means the feet of Allah azwj (two feet according to islamqa) are above the footstool but below the waters. We know that the qursi and waters are creations of Allah azwj and so it would mean there is part of Allah azwj between his creation.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

:salam:

I hope you are doing well my brother.

According to our salafi brothers, the two feet of Allah azwj are his literal attributes, and not metaphorical. Although they say that the two feet of Allah azwj are not like our feet, as there is nothing like Allah azwj, there are still a number of problems with this belief - as stated in the OP. I will bullet point:

1. Allah azwj is Ahad, one in his unified oneness. He can not be divided into constituent parts, would you not agree? For example, one can not say, Allah azwj is divided into the hands, eyes, feet, shin, fingers (but they are not like ours). Furthermore, if one were to divide Allah azwj into parts , you could argue that one could worship the two feet of Allah azwj - and still claim that they are worshipping Allah azwj.

2. Additionally, there are some ahadith authenticated by major scholars (check my original post for them) verified by IslamQa, which state that the two feet of Allah azwj are above the footstool. IslamQa also states the Qursi(footstool) is below the waters, which is below the throne. Therefore it means the feet of Allah azwj (two feet according to islamqa) are above the footstool but below the waters. We know that the qursi and waters are creations of Allah azwj and so it would mean there is part of Allah azwj between his creation.

 

 

W.salam, wa rehmatullah, wa barakatuhu.

I pray the same for you brother. And I really appreciate your efforts about Belief of Tauwheed. As it is the most sensitive issue in the sight of Allah. Our belief in tawheed must be pure without any traces of shirk.

Yes, I checked the link you provided in OP. Their interpretation for hadith of foot is not 100% correct. Its confusing. They have concluded with these words:

What is proven is that Allah, may He be exalted, will place His foot on Hell. We believe in this but we stop at this point and refrain from going further (in discussion). We do not say that He will place both of His feet on it, just as we do not say that He wrote the Torah with His two hands. Rather we adhere to what has been narrated, because with regard to the divine attributes, the matter is based on tawqeef (i.e., limiting it only to what has been narrated in sound texts). 

They said We believe in this but we stop at this point and refrain from going further (in discussion). But they actually discussed that and intrepreted that in wrong way, i.e in literal meaning. 

Their interpretations about ahadith mentioned in the OP are not correct. I agree with you in that.

Also I think there might be difference of opinion among salafis themselves regarding this issue. As Islamqa website does not represent every salafi.

Edited by Fahad Sani

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As non-Salafi who took lessons from Salafi brothers i know  that they believe in the attributes of Allah. They believe in tawheed ul asmaa was sifaat without takyif(questioning the attributes), tamthil|( likening Allah's Attributes to those of His Creation), tahrif(distortion of the words) and ta'til(rejecting the attributes).
They do not say Allah's Foot is similar to the foot of His Creation. I have still yet to see one salafi saying Allah's Attributes is like the attributes of His Creation. They believe in the Attributes of Allah that are clearly mentioned  in Quran & Sunnah and they also believe in the holy Verse "None is equal to Him".

Edited by Muslim_Till_JudgementDay

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2 hours ago, Muslim_Till_JudgementDay said:

As non-Salafi who took lessons from Salafi brothers i know  that they believe in the attributes of Allah. They believe in tawheed ul asmaa was sifaat without takyif(questioning the attributes), tamthil|( likening Allah's Attributes to those of His Creation), tahrif(distortion of the words) and ta'til(rejecting the attributes).
They do not say Allah's Foot is similar to the foot of His Creation. I have still yet to see one salafi saying Allah's Attributes is like the attributes of His Creation. They believe in the Attributes of Allah that are clearly mentioned  in Quran & Sunnah and they also believe in the holy Verse "None is equal to Him".

:bismillah:

:salam:

Thank you very much for your answer. I have in my original post, stated that they do not believe the two feet are like ours. I have factored this in, and i feel it does not change anything in terms of the points i made:

According to our salafi brothers, the two feet of Allah azwj are his literal attributes, and not metaphorical. Although they say that the two feet of Allah azwj are not like our feet, as there is nothing like Allah azwj, there are still a number of problems with this belief - as stated in the OP. I will bullet point:

1. Allah azwj is Ahad, one in his unified oneness. He can not be divided into constituent parts, would you not agree? For example, one can not say, Allah azwj is divided into the hands, eyes, feet, shin, fingers (but they are not like ours). Furthermore, if one were to divide Allah azwj into parts , you could argue that one could worship the two feet of Allah azwj - and still claim that they are worshipping Allah azwj.

2. Additionally, there are some ahadith authenticated by major scholars (check my original post for them) verified by IslamQa, which state that the two feet of Allah azwj are above the footstool. IslamQa also states the Qursi(footstool) is below the waters, which is below the throne. Therefore it means the feet of Allah azwj (two feet according to islamqa) are above the footstool but below the waters. We know that the qursi and waters are creations of Allah azwj and so it would mean there is part of Allah azwj between his creation

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18 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

Thank you very much for your answer. I have in my original post, stated that they do not believe the two feet are like ours. I have factored this in, and i feel it does not change anything in terms of the points i made:

According to our salafi brothers, the two feet of Allah azwj are his literal attributes, and not metaphorical. Although they say that the two feet of Allah azwj are not like our feet, as there is nothing like Allah azwj, there are still a number of problems with this belief - as stated in the OP. I will bullet point:

1. Allah azwj is Ahad, one in his unified oneness. He can not be divided into constituent parts, would you not agree? For example, one can not say, Allah azwj is divided into the hands, eyes, feet, shin, fingers (but they are not like ours). Furthermore, if one were to divide Allah azwj into parts , you could argue that one could worship the two feet of Allah azwj - and still claim that they are worshipping Allah azwj.

2. Additionally, there are some ahadith authenticated by major scholars (check my original post for them) verified by IslamQa, which state that the two feet of Allah azwj are above the footstool. IslamQa also states the Qursi(footstool) is below the waters, which is below the throne. Therefore it means the feet of Allah azwj (two feet according to islamqa) are above the footstool but below the waters. We know that the qursi and waters are creations of Allah azwj and so it would mean there is part of Allah azwj between his creation

Salaam

I know I addressed this topic with you elsewhere, but could you respond to it here (seeing as the discussion has been reignited):

"These are my ponderings on this matter now:

 

If one were to say "Allah is The Merciful - He bestows His mercy", you wouldn't say you are worshipping His mercy, rather you are worshipping The Merciful, and similarly one wouldn't say you are worshipping Allah's hands, rather you are worshipping Allah. Even with your beliefs that Allah's hands or face are metaphorically indicative of attributes, you would still face a parallel situation to us, and I will use an example to explain:

 

Let's take the sentence "Allah created mankind by His hands", and let's assume that means "Allah created mankind using His power". From your perspective, you would be worshipping The Powerful (Allah), not the power by which He created mankind, and it is similar we would be worshipping Allah, not His hands. Allah is The Powerful, and the power is from Allah but the power is not Allah, similarly the hands are from Allah but they are not Allah.

 

It is thus that Allah can have the attributes of hands, foot, face etc in a way that befits His majesty without someone having the ability to say "I am worshipping Allah's hands".

 

Although I can understand where you are coming from about dividing into parts, I would again say that it is comparative to how Allah's knowledge and power and seeing and hearing and mercy are all different things but still are with Allah in His oneness. The issue of divisibility is that one is thinking of Allah in an overly literal physical way like His creation, but the position has always been that Allah is unlike His creation. This is sufficient, I believe.

 

With this understanding of not being like His creation but still having these attributes, we can then reject any attempt to logically comprehend Allah's feet being physically below the water and above the kursi as this is attempting to comprehend everything in a more physical way than intended perhaps. The balance between Allah's description being literal and metaphorical is on a knife's edge, but this does not make it incorrect, rather it is a matter left by Allah and His messenger and therefore not meant to be something that we try to understand the finer details of, since it is an obscure matter only known to Him."

 

Could you also respond to the other point I once made about Allah saying "both My hands" as a plural rather than in singular which would invalidate a completely metaphorical interpretation since Allah would not be using His powers (double the same attribute) to create Adam (AS), rather just his power?

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2 hours ago, Zamestaneh said:

Could you also respond to the other point I once made about Allah saying "both My hands" as a plural rather than in singular which would invalidate a completely metaphorical interpretation since Allah would not be using His powers (double the same attribute) to create Adam (AS), rather just his power?

In Arabic we have:

Singular : One

Dual : Two

Plural : Three or more

 

In English we have:

Singular : One

Plural : Two or more

 

There is no Dual in English.

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8 hours ago, BornShia said:

In Arabic we have:

Singular : One

Dual : Two

Plural : Three or more

 

In English we have:

Singular : One

Plural : Two or more

 

There is no Dual in English.

I am not knowledgeable enough in Arabic grammar to be able to tell which of the two is the way Allah uses in the Quran, but the point is the same - Allah would be using two or more times the attributes to create Adam (AS) which is clearly strange as it doesn't make sense.

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Here is a standard aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah from famous book "Aqeedah Tahawiyah" as described by Imam al-Tahawi: Imam Abu la far al-Tahawi (239-321).

 

45. The exact nature of the decree is Allah's secret in His creation, and no angel near the
Throne, nor Prophet sent with a message, has been given knowledge of it. Delving into it and
reflecting too much about it only leads to destruction and loss, and results in rebelliousness. So
be extremely careful about thinking and reflecting on this matter or letting doubts about it
assail you, because Allah has kept knowledge of the decree away from human beings, and
forbidden them to enquire about it, saying in His Book , "He is not asked about what He does but they are asked" (al-Anbiya' 21: 23).

 

49. AI- 'Arsh (the Throne) and al-Kursi (the Chair) are true.

50. He is independent of the Throne and that which is beneath it.

 

51. He encompasses all things and that which is above it, and what He has created is incapable
of encompassing Him.

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