Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Jafar moh

bible verse help 2

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Ran across this bible verse, specifically

2 Kings 4:32-37

32 When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed. 33 So he went in and shut the door behind the two of them and prayed to the Lord. 34 Then he went up and lay on the child, putting his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands. And as he stretched himself upon him, the flesh of the child became warm. 35 Then he got up again and walked once back and forth in the house, and went up and stretched himself upon him. The child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes. 36 Then he summoned Gehazi and said, “Call this Shunammite.” So he called her. And when she came to him, he said, “Pick up your son.” 37 She came and fell at his feet, bowing to the ground. Then she picked up her son and went out.

Does this tell me that Elisha was able to raise the dead? I feel like if this was the case then I am surprised I've never heard of this; it is a miracle that Jesus was able to do this as well?

Also a similar thing happens in Ezekiel 37 -- verses 1 to 14 respectfully, although I need a little clarification on this because It's hard to decipher who is saying what in this context. -- but if I am reading it right, Ezekiel here was also able to raise the dead? More specifically raise many of the dead. Shouldn't Ezekiel and Elisha be people we should hold high as they were given the similar gift as Jesus Christ (as) ? I'm only saying this because I've never heard of these two and I wish I did, but more suprised that they aren't as 'popular' as I would've thought.

Sorry, vague question on this post -- I just look for clarification really. thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Al Amir said:

The bible is a distorted book.Do not take anything from it as a hujjah.

Distorted does not negate it's entirety. Whether the claim of it's corruption is true or not it still is considered a holy book and deserves to be analyzed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Jafar moh said:

Distorted does not negate it's entirety. Whether the claim of it's corruption is true or not it still is considered a holy book and deserves to be analyzed. 

The Quran states that it is distorted.There are some portions of it that are not distorted but we can not know which parts they are,therefore taking hujjas from it is dangerous it is like sunni hadith books some parts are lies and some parts are true.In analyzing the bible your criteria must be its conformity with the Quran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Al Amir said:

The Quran states that it is distorted.There are some portions of it that are not distorted but we can not know which parts they are,therefore taking hujjas from it is dangerous it is like sunni hadith books some parts are lies and some parts are true.In analyzing the bible your criteria must be its conformity with the Quran.

agreed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Al Amir said:

The Quran states that it is distorted.There are some portions of it that are not distorted but we can not know which parts they are,therefore taking hujjas from it is dangerous it is like sunni hadith books some parts are lies and some parts are true.In analyzing the bible your criteria must be its conformity with the Quran.

I have heard this claim before. Can you please give the suras that say the Bible is distorted?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion, the nature and frequency of miracles bear no relationship to the rank of the prophets. For example, compare the miraculous feats of Moses and Jesus and despite the overpowering spectacle of Moses, they are both of the same rank. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ali6 said:

In my opinion, the nature and frequency of miracles bear no relationship to the rank of the prophets. For example, compare the miraculous feats of Moses and Jesus and despite the overpowering spectacle of Moses, they are both of the same rank. 

I agree but in my opinion the miracles performed by Isa ibn Maryam (as) were far more impressive than those of Moses except the miracle of dividing the red sea.

Edited by Al Amir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Al Amir said:

I agree but in my opinion the miracles performed by Isa ibn Maryam (as) were far more impressive than those of Moses except the miracle of dividing the red sea.

Really? The 10 plagues were sent to the entire nation of Egypt whereas the healing and even the raising of Lazarus performed by Jesus was witnessed by small crowds. Moses saved 2,000,000 Israelites from bondage and spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness with sustenance miraculously provided by God. On the other hand, Jesus didn't save anyone from the Romans and on one incidence, fed 5,000 people. In regards to the virgin birth, nobody can prove that and him talking as a baby, only a small crowd witnessed it. My point isn't to disparage Jesus but to highlight to the stark difference in magnitude of miracles.

Edited by Ali6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Jafar moh I'm just going to answer your question. There are several instances of people being raised from the dead in the Bible. Elijah and Elisha did it in the Jewish scriptures. In the Christian scriptures Jesus, Paul, and Peter raised people from the dead. 

In the 37 th chapter of the book of Exekiel, the prophet is considered to be having a vision. He is in exile after being captured and deported to Babylon in the 6 th century BC and is receiving the message that Israel will be restored to its homeland. This in fact happens when Cyrus conquers Babylon.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Jafar moh said:

Ran across this bible verse, specifically

2 Kings 4:32-37

32 When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed. 33 So he went in and shut the door behind the two of them and prayed to the Lord. 34 Then he went up and lay on the child, putting his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands. And as he stretched himself upon him, the flesh of the child became warm. 35 Then he got up again and walked once back and forth in the house, and went up and stretched himself upon him. The child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes. 36 Then he summoned Gehazi and said, “Call this Shunammite.” So he called her. And when she came to him, he said, “Pick up your son.” 37 She came and fell at his feet, bowing to the ground. Then she picked up her son and went out.

Does this tell me that Elisha was able to raise the dead? I feel like if this was the case then I am surprised I've never heard of this; it is a miracle that Jesus was able to do this as well?

Also a similar thing happens in Ezekiel 37 -- verses 1 to 14 respectfully, although I need a little clarification on this because It's hard to decipher who is saying what in this context. -- but if I am reading it right, Ezekiel here was also able to raise the dead? More specifically raise many of the dead. Shouldn't Ezekiel and Elisha be people we should hold high as they were given the similar gift as Jesus Christ (as) ? I'm only saying this because I've never heard of these two and I wish I did, but more suprised that they aren't as 'popular' as I would've thought.

Sorry, vague question on this post -- I just look for clarification really. thanks.

Salamun alaykum.

الیسع has been mentioned in 2 Verses: 6: 86 and 38:48.

Refer to books if exegesis of Quran (under these 2 Verses) to know more about him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Al Amir said:

The Quran states that it is distorted.There are some portions of it that are not distorted but we can not know which parts they are,therefore taking hujjas from it is dangerous it is like sunni hadith books some parts are lies and some parts are true.In analyzing the bible your criteria must be its conformity with the Quran.

Does the Quran really say the Bible is distorted, or is it your own invention? If not ypur own, where in the Quran can I find this statement?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, andres said:

Does the Quran really say the Bible is distorted, or is it your own invention? If not ypur own, where in the Quran can I find this statement?

i dont remember the exact verses but i remember there are verses

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Al Amir said:

i dont remember the exact verses but i remember there are verses

I have got a strong suspicion that your memory is not correct and that the Quran never stated that the Bible is distorted. If it did, someone should know where in the Quran this statement is to be found. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

@Jafar moh I'm just going to answer your question. There are several instances of people being raised from the dead in the Bible. Elijah and Elisha did it in the Jewish scriptures. In the Christian scriptures Jesus, Paul, and Peter raised people from the dead. 

In the 37 th chapter of the book of Exekiel, the prophet is considered to be having a vision. He is in exile after being captured and deported to Babylon in the 6 th century BC and is receiving the message that Israel will be restored to its homeland. This in fact happens when Cyrus conquers Babylon.

Okay cool, 

So if these people were given the power to resurrect the dead , don't they now have a characteristic like that of Jesus , and wouldn't they be considered more special then other prophets or people. I'm just curious as to why these weren't like the first ppl I heard of when I Christianity as not everyone is able to do that 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All of these people are very special to Christians. (Jesus, of course, is in a whole different category.)

They were able to do these miraculous things through the Holy Spirit. Their special status is illustrated in the Gospel accounts,including the one of the Transfiguration, when Peter, James, and John go up to the mountain with Jesus to pray and are greeted with the vision of Moses and Elijah coming to speak with Jesus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

All of these people are very special to Christians. (Jesus, of course, is in a whole different category.)

They were able to do these miraculous things through the Holy Spirit. Their special status is illustrated in the Gospel accounts,including the one of the Transfiguration, when Peter, James, and John go up to the mountain with Jesus to pray and are greeted with the vision of Moses and Elijah coming to speak with Jesus.

cool stuff,

So we can say for sure that through the holy spirit, they were able to do these miraculous things. So does that mean that God gave them this power or Jesus? Or maybe both if you are looking at it through a trinity angle?

Also, is it not fair to say that in a way, Elisha and Ezekiel were given Godly powers, through the holy spirit, but nonetheless a miracle attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh) ?
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jafar moh,

 

That is good that you are reading the OT, but you do an injustice by not reading the whole context.

Two things to consider, The Quran CONFIRMS THE FORMER SCRIPTURES AS TRUE, so don't listen to the critics.

Secondly, If you are going to read these miracles by the Prophets of God, don't glorify the Prophets, but glorify God.

 

Now the story of the woman is this in 2 Kings 4:

8 Now it happened one day that Elisha went to Shunem, where there was a notable woman, and she persuaded him to eat some food. So it was, as often as he passed by, he would turn in there to eat some food.

9 And she said to her husband, "Look now, I know that this is a holy man of God, who passes by us regularly.

10 Please, let us make a small upper room on the wall; and let us put a bed for him there, and a table and a chair and a lampstand; so it will be, whenever he comes to us, he can turn in there."

11 And it happened one day that he came there, and he turned in to the upper room and lay down there.

12 Then he said to Gehazi his servant, "Call this Shunammite woman." When he had called her, she stood before him.

13 And he said to him, "Say now to her, ‘Look, you have been concerned for us with all this care. What can I do for you? Do you want me to speak on your behalf to the king or to the commander of the army?’" She answered, "I dwell among my own people."

14 So he said, "What then is to be done for her?" And Gehazi answered, "Actually, she has no son, and her husband is old."

15 So he said, "Call her." When he had called her, she stood in the doorway.

16 Then he said, "About this time next year you shall embrace a son."

And she said, "No, my lord. Man of God, do not lie to your maidservant!"

17 But the woman conceived, and bore a son when the appointed time had come, of which Elisha had told her.

18 And the child grew. Now it happened one day that he went out to his father, to the reapers.

19 And he said to his father, "My head, my head!" --- So he said to a servant, "Carry him to his mother."

20 When he had taken him and brought him to his mother, he sat on her knees till noon, and then died.

21 And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, shut the door upon him, and went out.

22 Then she called to her husband, and said, "Please send me one of the young men and one of the donkeys, that I may run to the man of God and come back."

23 So he said, "Why are you going to him today? It is neither the New Moon nor the Sabbath." --- And she said, "It is well."

24 Then she saddled a donkey, and said to her servant, "Drive, and go forward; do not slacken the pace for me unless I tell you."

25 And so she departed, and went to the man of God at Mount Carmel. So it was, when the man of God saw her afar off, that he said to his servant Gehazi, "Look, the Shunammite woman!

26 Please run now to meet her, and say to her, ‘Is it well with you? Is it well with your husband? Is it well with the child?’" And she answered, "It is well."

27 Now when she came to the man of God at the hill, she caught him by the feet, but Gehazi came near to push her away. But the man of God said, "Let her alone; for her soul is in deep distress, and the Lord has hidden it from me, and has not told me."

28 So she said, "Did I ask a son of my lord? Did I not say, ‘Do not deceive me’?"

29 Then he said to Gehazi, "Get yourself ready, and take my staff in your hand, and be on your way. If you meet anyone, do not greet him; and if anyone greets you, do not answer him; but lay my staff on the face of the child."

30 And the mother of the child said, "As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you." So he arose and followed her.

31 Now Gehazi went on ahead of them, and laid the staff on the face of the child; but there was neither voice nor hearing. Therefore he went back to meet him, and told him, saying, "The child has not awakened."

32 When Elisha came into the house, there was the child, lying dead on his bed.

33 He went in therefore, shut the door behind the two of them, and prayed to the Lord.

34 And he went up and lay on the child, and put his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands; and he stretched himself out on the child, and the flesh of the child became warm.

35 He returned and walked back and forth in the house, and again went up and stretched himself out on him; then the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

36 And he called Gehazi and said, "Call this Shunammite woman." So he called her. And when she came in to him, he said, "Pick up your son."

37 So she went in, fell at his feet, and bowed to the ground; then she picked up her son and went out.

 

God spoke to Moses and the Prophets and, through their obedience God did great miracles, as He still does today.

They had Faith in those days and these miracles are inspiring to believers, but as I say, "Don't glorify the Prophets that are obedient to God, --- but glorify God, who used willing servants."

 

Very simply: The woman did something good for Elisha, and Elisha wanted to repay her. --- In the Jewish heritage, the greatest blessing was to have a son. --- So, Elisha said, "You will have a son." --- this no doubt brought great Joy, but when the child got sick and died, --- She went to the Prophet and said, "Did I ask for a son?" --- No, she hadn't. --- So her sorrow was as great as her joy had been. --- Elisha was informed by the Lord, so first sent his servant to lay his staff on the boy. --- As soon as Elisha got there he would do what the Lord led him to do. --- While it might look like mouth to mouth resusitation, it was likely that the boy had suffered a seisure, brought on by a demonic attack. --- You may not know this but epilectics often suffer seisures and can go into a coma.

--- When Elisha entered, --- "the presence of God" --- through him, rebuked the demonic activity and after the child became warm, he would cast out the spirits.

--- Yes, and SNEEZING is one of the indications that it was demonic. The child recovered and would again be a joy to his parents.

 

--- I know, this is long again, but there is a comparable account in Matthew 17:

14 And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying,

15 "Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water.

16 So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him."

17 Then Jesus answered and said, --- Bring him here to Me."

18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

--- Notice, the epileptic boy had a demon controling him and it would throw him 'into the fire or into the water,' (to try and destroy him, or at least terrorize the family).

--- Notice, when Jesus 'cast the demon out of him,' --- he was cured, or healed.

So, many times 'healing' or 'wellness' comes from casting out the evil spirits that cause sickness.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, placid said:

Hi Jafar moh,

 

That is good that you are reading the OT, but you do an injustice by not reading the whole context.

Two things to consider, The Quran CONFIRMS THE FORMER SCRIPTURES AS TRUE, so don't listen to the critics.

Secondly, If you are going to read these miracles by the Prophets of God, don't glorify the Prophets, but glorify God.

 

Now the story of the woman is this in 2 Kings 4:

8 Now it happened one day that Elisha went to Shunem, where there was a notable woman, and she persuaded him to eat some food. So it was, as often as he passed by, he would turn in there to eat some food.

9 And she said to her husband, "Look now, I know that this is a holy man of God, who passes by us regularly.

10 Please, let us make a small upper room on the wall; and let us put a bed for him there, and a table and a chair and a lampstand; so it will be, whenever he comes to us, he can turn in there."

11 And it happened one day that he came there, and he turned in to the upper room and lay down there.

12 Then he said to Gehazi his servant, "Call this Shunammite woman." When he had called her, she stood before him.

13 And he said to him, "Say now to her, ‘Look, you have been concerned for us with all this care. What can I do for you? Do you want me to speak on your behalf to the king or to the commander of the army?’" She answered, "I dwell among my own people."

14 So he said, "What then is to be done for her?" And Gehazi answered, "Actually, she has no son, and her husband is old."

15 So he said, "Call her." When he had called her, she stood in the doorway.

16 Then he said, "About this time next year you shall embrace a son."

And she said, "No, my lord. Man of God, do not lie to your maidservant!"

17 But the woman conceived, and bore a son when the appointed time had come, of which Elisha had told her.

18 And the child grew. Now it happened one day that he went out to his father, to the reapers.

19 And he said to his father, "My head, my head!" --- So he said to a servant, "Carry him to his mother."

20 When he had taken him and brought him to his mother, he sat on her knees till noon, and then died.

21 And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, shut the door upon him, and went out.

22 Then she called to her husband, and said, "Please send me one of the young men and one of the donkeys, that I may run to the man of God and come back."

23 So he said, "Why are you going to him today? It is neither the New Moon nor the Sabbath." --- And she said, "It is well."

24 Then she saddled a donkey, and said to her servant, "Drive, and go forward; do not slacken the pace for me unless I tell you."

25 And so she departed, and went to the man of God at Mount Carmel. So it was, when the man of God saw her afar off, that he said to his servant Gehazi, "Look, the Shunammite woman!

26 Please run now to meet her, and say to her, ‘Is it well with you? Is it well with your husband? Is it well with the child?’" And she answered, "It is well."

27 Now when she came to the man of God at the hill, she caught him by the feet, but Gehazi came near to push her away. But the man of God said, "Let her alone; for her soul is in deep distress, and the Lord has hidden it from me, and has not told me."

28 So she said, "Did I ask a son of my lord? Did I not say, ‘Do not deceive me’?"

29 Then he said to Gehazi, "Get yourself ready, and take my staff in your hand, and be on your way. If you meet anyone, do not greet him; and if anyone greets you, do not answer him; but lay my staff on the face of the child."

30 And the mother of the child said, "As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you." So he arose and followed her.

31 Now Gehazi went on ahead of them, and laid the staff on the face of the child; but there was neither voice nor hearing. Therefore he went back to meet him, and told him, saying, "The child has not awakened."

32 When Elisha came into the house, there was the child, lying dead on his bed.

33 He went in therefore, shut the door behind the two of them, and prayed to the Lord.

34 And he went up and lay on the child, and put his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands; and he stretched himself out on the child, and the flesh of the child became warm.

35 He returned and walked back and forth in the house, and again went up and stretched himself out on him; then the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

36 And he called Gehazi and said, "Call this Shunammite woman." So he called her. And when she came in to him, he said, "Pick up your son."

37 So she went in, fell at his feet, and bowed to the ground; then she picked up her son and went out.

 

God spoke to Moses and the Prophets and, through their obedience God did great miracles, as He still does today.

They had Faith in those days and these miracles are inspiring to believers, but as I say, "Don't glorify the Prophets that are obedient to God, --- but glorify God, who used willing servants."

 

Very simply: The woman did something good for Elisha, and Elisha wanted to repay her. --- In the Jewish heritage, the greatest blessing was to have a son. --- So, Elisha said, "You will have a son." --- this no doubt brought great Joy, but when the child got sick and died, --- She went to the Prophet and said, "Did I ask for a son?" --- No, she hadn't. --- So her sorrow was as great as her joy had been. --- Elisha was informed by the Lord, so first sent his servant to lay his staff on the boy. --- As soon as Elisha got there he would do what the Lord led him to do. --- While it might look like mouth to mouth resusitation, it was likely that the boy had suffered a seisure, brought on by a demonic attack. --- You may not know this but epilectics often suffer seisures and can go into a coma.

--- When Elisha entered, --- "the presence of God" --- through him, rebuked the demonic activity and after the child became warm, he would cast out the spirits.

--- Yes, and SNEEZING is one of the indications that it was demonic. The child recovered and would again be a joy to his parents.

 

--- I know, this is long again, but there is a comparable account in Matthew 17:

14 And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying,

15 "Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water.

16 So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him."

17 Then Jesus answered and said, --- Bring him here to Me."

18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

--- Notice, the epileptic boy had a demon controling him and it would throw him 'into the fire or into the water,' (to try and destroy him, or at least terrorize the family).

--- Notice, when Jesus 'cast the demon out of him,' --- he was cured, or healed.

So, many times 'healing' or 'wellness' comes from casting out the evil spirits that cause sickness.

 

Sweet , and yeah sorry I was trying to explain my wording it on a Jesus is God kind of angle but I mightve went a little extra-- the only reason that elisha was able to do that and furthermore the only reason why Jesus (as) was able to do it as well was because God gave them this gift as willing servants. What I was trying to get at was that: if we do consider Jesus Lord because of the very specific miracles like raising the dead etc why do we not consider elisha and Exekiel alike as a kind of God as well if these are also reasons as to why Jesus can be considered God . 

What else can we say about the divinity of Jesus if not his miracles? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...