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Bukhari?

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Here is the hadith:

Quote

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 132:

Narrated Aisha:

A necklace of mine was lost at Al-Baida' and we were on our way to Medina. The Prophet made his camel kneel down and dismounted and laid his head on my lap and slept. Abu Bakr came to me and hit me violently on the chest and said, "You have detained the people because of a necklace." I kept as motionless as a dead person because of the position of Allah's Apostle ; (on my lap) although Abu Bakr had hurt me (with the slap). Then the Prophet woke up and it was the time for the morning (prayer). Water was sought, but in vain; so the following Verse was revealed:--

"O you who believe! When you intend to offer prayer.." (5.6) Usaid bin Hudair said, "Allah has blessed the people for your sake, O the family of Abu Bakr. You are but a blessing for them.

I AM SURE THAT YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE HOLY QURAN, AND NOT LIKE BUKHARI WHO DOESN'T KNOW QURAN. OF COURSE, THE ABOVE HADITH IS SAHIH AS IT IS IN SAHIH AL-BUKHARI.

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8 hours ago, BornShia said:

Here is the hadith:

I AM SURE THAT YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE HOLY QURAN, AND NOT LIKE BUKHARI WHO DOESN'T KNOW QURAN. OF COURSE, THE ABOVE HADITH IS SAHIH AS IT IS IN SAHIH AL-BUKHARI.

i still don't get it? firstly, the number of the ayah is there only in the english translation (perhaps to assist readers) and not in the arabic text of al Bukhari. The ayah يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلاَةِ‏ is there in chapter 5. what is the exact question?

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3 hours ago, aansoogas said:

i still don't get it? firstly, the number of the ayah is there only in the english translation (perhaps to assist readers) and not in the arabic text of al Bukhari. The ayah يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلاَةِ‏ is there in chapter 5. what is the exact question?

Here is the hadith in Arabic:

Quote

حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي عَمْرٌو، أَنَّ عَبْدَ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنَ الْقَاسِمِ، حَدَّثَهُ عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ سَقَطَتْ قِلاَدَةٌ لِي بِالْبَيْدَاءِ وَنَحْنُ دَاخِلُونَ الْمَدِينَةَ، فَأَنَاخَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَنَزَلَ، فَثَنَى رَأْسَهُ فِي حَجْرِي رَاقِدًا، أَقْبَلَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ فَلَكَزَنِي لَكْزَةً شَدِيدَةً وَقَالَ حَبَسْتِ النَّاسَ فِي قِلاَدَةٍ‏.‏ فَبِي الْمَوْتُ لِمَكَانِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَقَدْ أَوْجَعَنِي، ثُمَّ إِنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم اسْتَيْقَظَ وَحَضَرَتِ الصُّبْحُ فَالْتُمِسَ الْمَاءُ فَلَمْ يُوجَدْ فَنَزَلَتْ ‏{‏يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلاَةِ‏}‏ الآيَةَ‏.‏ فَقَالَ أُسَيْدُ بْنُ حُضَيْرٍ لَقَدْ بَارَكَ اللَّهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِيكُمْ يَا آلَ أَبِي بَكْرٍ، مَا أَنْتُمْ إِلاَّ بَرَكَةٌ لَهُمْ‏.‏

Here is the Quranic verse the hadith is referencing to:

Quote

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلَاةِ فَاغْسِلُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُوا بِرُءُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ ۚ وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّرُوا ۚ وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ مَرْضَىٰ أَوْ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاءَ أَحَدٌ مِنْكُمْ مِنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لَامَسْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَلَمْ تَجِدُوا مَاءً فَتَيَمَّمُوا صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُوا بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُمْ مِنْهُ ۚ مَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيَجْعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ مِنْ حَرَجٍ وَلَٰكِنْ يُرِيدُ لِيُطَهِّرَكُمْ وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ

1. It seems like Bukhari you don't know the Holy Quran.

2. However, you are authority on hadiths, hadiths, hadiths, Sahih Sitta.

3. How many Tayammum verses are in the Holy Quran?

4. Can you please bring these verses from the Holy Quran and post it here?

Many thanks in advance.

Once you have done the above you will realize how cooked the above hadith is and that Mr. Bukhari lacking knowledge in Holy Quran.

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2 hours ago, BornShia said:

Here is the hadith in Arabic:

Here is the Quranic verse the hadith is referencing to:

1. It seems like Bukhari you don't know the Holy Quran.

2. However, you are authority on hadiths, hadiths, hadiths, Sahih Sitta.

3. How many Tayammum verses are in the Holy Quran?

4. Can you please bring these verses from the Holy Quran and post it here?

Many thanks in advance.

Once you have done the above you will realize how cooked the above hadith is and that Mr. Bukhari lacking knowledge in Holy Quran.

where has Bukhari denied the verse(s) on tayyamum?

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46 minutes ago, aansoogas said:
2 hours ago, BornShia said:

Here is the hadith in Arabic:

Here is the Quranic verse the hadith is referencing to:

1. It seems like Bukhari you don't know the Holy Quran.

2. However, you are authority on hadiths, hadiths, hadiths, Sahih Sitta.

3. How many Tayammum verses are in the Holy Quran?

4. Can you please bring these verses from the Holy Quran and post it here?

Many thanks in advance.

Once you have done the above you will realize how cooked the above hadith is and that Mr. Bukhari lacking knowledge in Holy Quran.

where has Bukhari denied the verse(s) on tayyamum?

You have failed to provide the verses on Tayammum from the Holy Quran?

Typical Sunni Response?

Provide the verses about Tayammum from the Holy Quran?

If you are not capable, then maybe we should stop here?

Or, are you acting that you are not capable to bring the verses from the Holy Quran regarding Tayammum?

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3 hours ago, BornShia said:

You have failed to provide the verses on Tayammum from the Holy Quran?

Typical Sunni Response?

Provide the verses about Tayammum from the Holy Quran?

If you are not capable, then maybe we should stop here?

Or, are you acting that you are not capable to bring the verses from the Holy Quran regarding Tayammum?

"O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. after a sexual discharge), purify yourselves (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey, or any of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse), and you find no water, then perform tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour to you that you may be thankful."

— Qur'an, Sura 5 (Al-Mai'da), ayat 6
 

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37 minutes ago, aansoogas said:

"O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. after a sexual discharge), purify yourselves (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey, or any of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse), and you find no water, then perform tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour to you that you may be thankful."

— Qur'an, Sura 5 (Al-Mai'da), ayat 6
 

Is the above only aya (verse) regarding Tayammum in the Holy Quran?

If not, then bring the other verses? Unless you don't know the Holy Quran?

If yes, then why aren't you bringing the other verses about Tayammum in the Holy Quran?

Like I said it you before, Allah is TRUTH and your salvation is in your hands and no one else.

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36 minutes ago, aansoogas said:

@BornShia i still don't know why you are insisting on having more ayahs on tayammum in quran. What has the hadith given by you got to do with your question?

Read the Bukhari hadith very carefully and see what he is claiming for Aisha and referencing the following:

1. The Tayammum verse was descended in honor of Aisha.

2. He is referencing the verse 6 in chapter 5.

3. Your Uthman didn't put the Quran in chronological order and chapter 5 is the last chapter of the Holy Quran.

4. There are other Tayammum verses in the Holy Quran which were revealed prior to verse 6 chapter 5.

5. Thus Muslim already knew regarding Tayammum.

Here is Bukhari hadith again for your reference. This time read it very carefully, the wording of the Hadith.

20 hours ago, BornShia said:

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 132:

Narrated Aisha:

A necklace of mine was lost at Al-Baida' and we were on our way to Medina. The Prophet made his camel kneel down and dismounted and laid his head on my lap and slept. Abu Bakr came to me and hit me violently on the chest and said, "You have detained the people because of a necklace." I kept as motionless as a dead person because of the position of Allah's Apostle ; (on my lap) although Abu Bakr had hurt me (with the slap). Then the Prophet woke up and it was the time for the morning (prayer). Water was sought, but in vain; so the following Verse was revealed:--

"O you who believe! When you intend to offer prayer.." (5.6) Usaid bin Hudair said, "Allah has blessed the people for your sake, O the family of Abu Bakr. You are but a blessing for them.

Like I said it is a cooked hadith and Bukhari knew it is a cooked hadith and he still included it in his Sahih Bukhari, or he lack the knowledge of the Holy Quran.

Sahih Muslim and other Sahih Sitta have plagiarized this hadith too.

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TtHE REALITY OF BUKHARI CAN BE SEEN IN THE BOOK AT THE LINK GIVEN BELOW:

Sunni Ulema  Abu Zar’ah Razi and Abu Hatam Razi have abandoned citing traditions from Bukhari, prohibiting others as well to quote traditions from Bukhari.

https://www.al-islam.org/critical-assessment-sahih-bukhari-and-sahih-muslim-sayyid-ali-al-husayni-al-milani/chapter-1-bukhari

It is one of the signs of Bukhari’s animosity towards the Holy Prophet’s progeny and his deviation from their conduct, that he did not mention Imam Sadiq’s traditions in his book and above all he cast doubts on some of his traditions!

Bukhari also contain the baseless traditions.

https://www.al-islam.org/critical-assessment-sahih-bukhari-and-sahih-muslim-sayyid-ali-al-husayni-al-milani/chapter-2

Many obvious contradictions can be found in traditions of Bukhari.

https://asimiqbal2nd.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/contradictions.pdf

Edited by skamran110

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9 minutes ago, aansoogas said:

okay and your proof?

How many times I will give you the PROOF. My proof is HOLY QURAN. But like I said, it is your salvation. Either believe Bukhari OR THE HOLY QURAN.

Edited by BornShia

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2 hours ago, BornShia said:

1. The Tayammum verse was descended in honor of Aisha.

2. He is referencing the verse 6 in chapter 5.

3. Your Uthman didn't put the Quran in chronological order and chapter 5 is the last chapter of the Holy Quran.

4. There are other Tayammum verses in the Holy Quran which were revealed prior to verse 6 chapter 5.

and what is your proof that the other ayahs were revealed prior to the verse 6 chapter 5 (or 112)?

Don't you know that Ayahs belonging to different Surahs were revealed on different times. Prophet (saw) used to ask companions to insert ayah at a particular place. so even if the ayah in chrono order may have belonged to surah 112. it is not necessary that the ayah has to be either revealed before or after some or all of the ayahs of the last two surahs.

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25 minutes ago, aansoogas said:

and what is your proof that the other ayahs were revealed prior to the verse 6 chapter 5 (or 112)?

Don't you know that Ayahs belonging to different Surahs were revealed on different times. Prophet (saw) used to ask companions to insert ayah at a particular place. so even if the ayah in chrono order may have belonged to surah 112. it is not necessary that the ayah has to be either revealed before or after some or all of the ayahs of the last two surahs.

As Ahlul Hadith you show ignorance of Holy Quran.

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On 7/7/2016 at 11:16 AM, shiaman14 said:

So let me get this right - the hadith below of the Prophet is sahih:

Narrated Anas:
The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. When the news reached the Prophet (ﷺ) he sent some people in their pursuit. When they were brought, he cut their hands and feet and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron.
Sahih al-Bukhari
Book 76, Hadith 9

Even though there is a clear edict to never mutilate the body of anyone including dogs, but this is in Sahih Bukhari so it must be right. What happened to the Rehmat-al-alameen? I suppose this is what ISIS and Taliban use to justify chopping people up.

@aansoogas   @Bukhari8k @Fahad Sani -

1) is this hadith correct?

2) Would I be wrong to depict this in a cartoon?

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On 7/9/2016 at 3:14 AM, shiaman14 said:

@aansoogas   @Bukhari8k @Fahad Sani -

1) is this hadith correct?

2) Would I be wrong to depict this in a cartoon?

Yes, the account is correct however it is an abridged account. If you read relevant ahadith then you will know that this was done under Qisaas (as the same actions were carried out on the poor shepherd [who perhaps had no wali to forgive the culprits]).

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On 7/9/2016 at 3:14 AM, shiaman14 said:

@aansoogas   @Bukhari8k @Fahad Sani -

1) is this hadith correct?

2) Would I be wrong to depict this in a cartoon?

@shiaman14This is for others. We already had a long discussion on that on other forum.

When you isolate and single out any hadith or verse of Quran you will never understand properly. In order to clearly understand the matter you have to read all related narrations or verses of Quran about the matter under study.
 
Here are some related ahadith to the hadith under question i.e of Bukhari, Book 76 Medicine, Hadith 9. All these are narrated by Anas bin Malik r.a.

Chapter 15:
The chapter of those who wage war from the people who are disbelievers and those turned renegades.


Narrated Anas:
Some people from the tribe of `Ukl came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet (ﷺ) sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.
Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6802, Book 86, Hadith 32.

Chapter (16):
The Prophet (saws) did not cauterize those who fought and of those who were renegades


Narrated Anas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of `Uraina and did not cauterise (their bleeding limbs) till they died.
Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6803, Book 86, Hadith 33

Chapter (17):
No water was given to those turned renegades and fought, till they died


Narrated Anas:
A group of people from `Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and they were living with the people of As- Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Provide us with milk." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah's Apostle." So they went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and took the camels away. When a help-seeker came to Allah's Apostle, he sent some men in their pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day. The Prophet ordered for some iron pieces to be made red hot, and their eyes were branded with them and their hands and feet were cut off and were not cauterized. Then they were put at a place called Al- Harra, and when they asked for water to drink they were not given till they died. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder and fought against Allah and His Apostle.")
Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6804, Book 86, Hadith 34

Chapter (18):
The Prophet (saws) branded the eyes of those who fought

 
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
A group of people from `Ukl (or `Uraina) tribe ----but I think he said that they were from `Ukl came to Medina and (they became ill, so) the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) she-camels and told them to go out and drink the camels' urine and milk (as a medicine). So they went and drank it, and when they became healthy, they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This news reached the Prophet (ﷺ) early in the morning, so he sent (some) men in their pursuit and they were captured and brought to the Prophet (ﷺ) before midday. He ordered to cut off their hands and legs and their eyes to be branded with heated iron pieces and they were thrown at Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink, they were not given water. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those were the people who committed theft and murder and reverted to disbelief after being believers (Muslims), and fought against Allah and His Apostle").
‏Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6805, Book 86, Hadith 35

Chapter (2): The ruling on Muharibin and Apostates

 
Anas reported:
Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukl came to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and swore allegiance to him on Islam, but found the climate of that land uncogenial to their health and thus they became sick, and they made complaint of that to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), and he said: Why don't you go to (the fold) of our camels along with our shepherd, and make use of their milk and urine. They said: Yes. They set out and drank their (camels') milk and urine and regained their health. They killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This (news) reached Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and he sent them on their track and they were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Ibn al-Sabbah with a slight variation of words.
Reference: Sahih Muslim 1671 b, Book 28, Hadith 13

Anas reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) pierced their eyes because they had pierced the eyes of the shepherds.
Reference: Sahih Muslim 1671 h, Book 28, Hadith 19


And the punishments given to them were as per order of Allah.

Maida 33:
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

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@Fahad Sani - yes brother - we did discuss this on that 'other' site.

the main point of contention was whether the Prophet cut of the hand/legs himself or ordered someone to do it under qisas. My argument on the other site and here as well is that the Prophet did not carry out the punishment himself.

I believe we are in agreement on this.

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22 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

@Fahad Sani - yes brother - we did discuss this on that 'other' site.

the main point of contention was whether the Prophet cut of the hand/legs himself or ordered someone to do it under qisas. My argument on the other site and here as well is that the Prophet did not carry out the punishment himself.

I believe we are in agreement on this.

Salam brother,

I keep seeing this word, qisas. Can you please explain the meaning of qisas?

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1 hour ago, BornShia said:

Salam brother,

I keep seeing this word, qisas. Can you please explain the meaning of qisas?

@Fahad Sani

@BornShia - Salaam. Qisas is basically eye4eye concept. 

For example, Ibn Muljim hit Imam Ali on his head with a sword. His death sentence by Imam Ali was also only 1 strike to the head and so on.

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On 7/23/2016 at 5:02 PM, shiaman14 said:

@Fahad Sani - yes brother - we did discuss this on that 'other' site.

the main point of contention was whether the Prophet cut of the hand/legs himself or ordered someone to do it under qisas. My argument on the other site and here as well is that the Prophet did not carry out the punishment himself.

I believe we are in agreement on this.

You are still going with this story?

Right because only kuffar are stubborn.
I have been saying all along that the Prophet would not do such a thing. For you imply that I am being stubborn may have been correct had I not known about the punishments ordered by the Prophet after wars and specifically after the Banu Qurayza incident. This event happened after all those incidents towards the tail end of the Prophet's life.
Perhaps my mistake was that I only highlighted the "he cut" narration when I should have quoted the "he ordered" narration and shown them to be different. But I am sure you would have found some syntax/linguistic/grammatical/etc argument to get around the crux of the matter.


Thanks for quoting me from beginning to end. I was going to do the same. The discussion started off with me saying the Prophet did not "cut" off someone's limbs (extremities since I have been corrected). Then we digressed into comparing the incident with the ayah and how close (or not) they were related. Then I ended with the Islam allows eye4eye punishment so cutting of their hands if that is what they did is ok, same goes for legs, eyes, etc.  I was highlighting the differences between the ayah and the narrations of the incident.
Of course, I said the Prophet was fair in his administration of the punishment of the crime. I did not say in his execution of the crime so pardon me for assuming that even the most basic Muslims knows the Prophet issued the verdicts but the execution of the verdict was carried out by Muslims.
All you have done in successfully showing is that you will dance and run around in circles rather than get to the main issue at hand - did the Prophet cut off their 'extremities' or not?
 
 


Whatever floats your boat, so you still insist that the verse is not applicable?

"even the most basic Muslims knows the Prophet issued the verdicts but the execution of the verdict was carried out by Muslims." So why did you question the narration by rejecting that the verse does not apply?

"Then I ended with the Islam allows eye4eye punishment so cutting of their hands if that is what they did is ok, same goes for legs, eyes, etc."

Right right, well unfortunately for you, feet were not cut off as retribution but as application of the verse which you questioned remember?
 

Quote
These people were not at war with the Prophet and hence this would not be applicable to them.
 

 

Quote
(6) Do you still stand by your statement that the verse does not apply to the one who steals and kills?
 
Yes.
 


 

Quote
Even though there is a clear edict to never mutilate the body of anyone including dogs, but this is in Sahih Bukhari so it must be right. What happened to the Rehmat-al-alameen?
 


I am sure you are talking about an edict only for the Prophet saws(which one btw?) and not for all muslims.

 

Quote
1) While Allah is surely Rahman and Raheem, He is also Hakam (Judge), Adl (Just), Hasib (Bringer of Judgement),  Mumit (Bringer of Death), Muntaqim (Avenger), Darr (Afflictor). The ayah is about those who fight against Allah and the Prophet and what punishment that are to receive for it. It is devoid of mercy but that does not mean Allah is devoid of mercy or the Prophet is devoid of it.
2) Yazid's example is not applicable simly because Imam Hussain had committed no crime. The Prophet was merciful to the family of the victims and at the same time Just to the criminals.
 


Going off-tangent as usual, how is one more merciful by not doing it himself.
" The Prophet was merciful to the family of the victims and at the same time Just to the criminals." So if the Prophet did it himself, he was NOT merciful to the families?? What are you even talking about?

And last but not least:

Quote
I have a problem with wrong punishment for wrong crime.
 


As I said, you dont care about the sanctity of Bukhari or al Kafi or the Prophet, all you care about is the sanctity of your ego. Wallahi, your deception is so obvious, I can't even believe you think you can pull this off. People like you who have no shame in propagating something they themselves do not believe, are also the hardest to discuss with despite their potential ignorance. But I know how to deal with your kind if you only have an atom of fear for Allah. Forget about everything I said, simply repeat this sentence:
 

Quote
May Allah curse me, ShiaMan, if I even for a split second in this discussion about this narration tried to argue that the punishment was not legitimate regardless of the punisher.
 


Let's see who is more truthful, you or Imam al Bukhari.

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2 hours ago, GreatChineseFall said:

You are still going with this story?

Right because only kuffar are stubborn.
I have been saying all along that the Prophet would not do such a thing. For you imply that I am being stubborn may have been correct had I not known about the punishments ordered by the Prophet after wars and specifically after the Banu Qurayza incident. This event happened after all those incidents towards the tail end of the Prophet's life.
Perhaps my mistake was that I only highlighted the "he cut" narration when I should have quoted the "he ordered" narration and shown them to be different. But I am sure you would have found some syntax/linguistic/grammatical/etc argument to get around the crux of the matter.


Thanks for quoting me from beginning to end. I was going to do the same. The discussion started off with me saying the Prophet did not "cut" off someone's limbs (extremities since I have been corrected). Then we digressed into comparing the incident with the ayah and how close (or not) they were related. Then I ended with the Islam allows eye4eye punishment so cutting of their hands if that is what they did is ok, same goes for legs, eyes, etc.  I was highlighting the differences between the ayah and the narrations of the incident.
Of course, I said the Prophet was fair in his administration of the punishment of the crime. I did not say in his execution of the crime so pardon me for assuming that even the most basic Muslims knows the Prophet issued the verdicts but the execution of the verdict was carried out by Muslims.
All you have done in successfully showing is that you will dance and run around in circles rather than get to the main issue at hand - did the Prophet cut off their 'extremities' or not?
 
 


Whatever floats your boat, so you still insist that the verse is not applicable?

"even the most basic Muslims knows the Prophet issued the verdicts but the execution of the verdict was carried out by Muslims." So why did you question the narration by rejecting that the verse does not apply?

"Then I ended with the Islam allows eye4eye punishment so cutting of their hands if that is what they did is ok, same goes for legs, eyes, etc."

Right right, well unfortunately for you, feet were not cut off as retribution but as application of the verse which you questioned remember?
 

Quote
These people were not at war with the Prophet and hence this would not be applicable to them.
 

 

Quote
(6) Do you still stand by your statement that the verse does not apply to the one who steals and kills?
 
Yes.
 


 

Quote
Even though there is a clear edict to never mutilate the body of anyone including dogs, but this is in Sahih Bukhari so it must be right. What happened to the Rehmat-al-alameen?
 


I am sure you are talking about an edict only for the Prophet saws(which one btw?) and not for all muslims.

 

Quote
1) While Allah is surely Rahman and Raheem, He is also Hakam (Judge), Adl (Just), Hasib (Bringer of Judgement),  Mumit (Bringer of Death), Muntaqim (Avenger), Darr (Afflictor). The ayah is about those who fight against Allah and the Prophet and what punishment that are to receive for it. It is devoid of mercy but that does not mean Allah is devoid of mercy or the Prophet is devoid of it.
2) Yazid's example is not applicable simly because Imam Hussain had committed no crime. The Prophet was merciful to the family of the victims and at the same time Just to the criminals.
 


Going off-tangent as usual, how is one more merciful by not doing it himself.
" The Prophet was merciful to the family of the victims and at the same time Just to the criminals." So if the Prophet did it himself, he was NOT merciful to the families?? What are you even talking about?

And last but not least:

Quote
I have a problem with wrong punishment for wrong crime.
 


As I said, you dont care about the sanctity of Bukhari or al Kafi or the Prophet, all you care about is the sanctity of your ego. Wallahi, your deception is so obvious, I can't even believe you think you can pull this off. People like you who have no shame in propagating something they themselves do not believe, are also the hardest to discuss with despite their potential ignorance. But I know how to deal with your kind if you only have an atom of fear for Allah. Forget about everything I said, simply repeat this sentence:
 

Quote
May Allah curse me, ShiaMan, if I even for a split second in this discussion about this narration tried to argue that the punishment was not legitimate regardless of the punisher.
 


Let's see who is more truthful, you or Imam al Bukhari.

This incident is mentioned in Sahih Bukhari 11 times and it is only Anas Bin Malik who has narrated it. 10 times it says the Prophet ordered...; only once does it say the Prophet did it himself.

Cut himself:
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/76/9

Ordered:
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/24/102
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/4/100
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/56/227
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/86/34
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/86/32
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/76/8
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/76/42
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/86/35
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/64/232
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/87/38

Now, we can discuss Surah 5.33 and its relationship to this hadith all day long but first let's keep it simple for you:

A) The Prophet himself cut off the hands and feet of the people in this incident and also pierce their eyes

B) The Prophet only ordered the punishment of cutting off the hands and feet of the people in this incident and also piercing of their eyes

My contention has always been that it was definitely not A.

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5 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

My contention has always been that it was definitely not A.

I quoted you a narration from al Kafi that didnt have the Prophet himself exert the punishment and you still rejected it. I think we have discussed it enough, it is so clear it is not as you say, simply quote the red if you are truthful and I have nothing to stand on anymore.

I dont mind people criticizing, I dont mind people mocking, I dont mind people being disrespectful. If there is one thing I cant stand is people who claim things they themselves do not believe, just to win an argument. At least it will be a proof on Judgment Day against you for as long as you do not repent.

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25 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

I quoted you a narration from al Kafi that didnt have the Prophet himself exert the punishment and you still rejected it. I think we have discussed it enough, it is so clear it is not as you say, simply quote the red if you are truthful and I have nothing to stand on anymore.

I dont mind people criticizing, I dont mind people mocking, I dont mind people being disrespectful. If there is one thing I cant stand is people who claim things they themselves do not believe, just to win an argument. At least it will be a proof on Judgment Day against you for as long as you do not repent.

The discussion was in relation to Al-Kafi and the ayah.And as I said, we can discuss the ayah and its relationship to the incident but that is separate from the direct actions of the Prophet. So pick one:

A) The Prophet himself cut off the hands and feet of the people in this incident and also pierce their eyes

B) The Prophet only ordered the punishment of cutting off the hands and feet of the people in this incident and also piercing of their eyes

Either option proves Bukhari has incorrect narrations. If Option A is correct, then we could deduce that 10/11 are incorrect narrations (~91%). If Option B is correct, then we could deduce 1/11 narrations is incorrect (~9%).

Bottomline is Sahih Bukhari may not be all that Sahih after all which is the whole point of this discussion in the first place.

Edited by shiaman14

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26 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The discussion was in relation to Al-Kafi and the ayah

You flat out rejected it, there was no discussion with regards to this narration. Alhamdulilah you have some fear for Allah, you will never say the red. And you simply dont understand my objection. I dont mind people believing A or B(btw, its clear its B), no what I am annoyed about is your desperate attempts to make this about A or B, which it wasnt. The worst part is that you are willingly and knowingly lying about this to save face(Dont you have any shame?). It clearly was about the legitimacy of the punishment. As I said, simply say the red and we are done. There can be no discussion with people who are willing to lie so easily.

Edited by GreatChineseFall

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12 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

You flat out rejected it, there was no discussion with regards to this narration. Alhamdulilah you have some fear for Allah, you will never say the red. And you simply dont understand my objection. I dont mind people believing A or B(btw, its clear its B), no what I am annoyed about is your desperate attempts to make this about A or B, which it wasnt. It clearly was about the legitimacy of the punishment. As I said, simply say the red and we are done.

My whole argument was that the Prophet did not cut off the hands and feet himself hence making the narration erroneous. Everything else is almost irrelevant.

Perhaps I was not clear on what/why I was rejecting Al-Kafi or other sources but my point throughout has been the same - the Prophet DID NOT cut off hands+feet of anyone. For me to reject a hadith where the Prophet ordered a punishment would mean I did not know of qisas or eye4eye or I didnt know that the Prophet would order the killing of Banu Qurayza men, etc but I do know those things. This incident only becomes relevant when Bukhari quotes Anas bin Malik as saying both things (ordering or carrying out).

This chapter is closed as far as I am concerned as long as we are in agreement that narration  http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/76/9 is erroneous.

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1 minute ago, shiaman14 said:

My whole argument was that the Prophet did not cut off the hands and feet himself hence making the narration erroneous. Everything else is almost irrelevant.

Perhaps I was not clear on what/why I was rejecting Al-Kafi or other sources but my point throughout has been the same - the Prophet DID NOT cut off hands+feet of anyone. For me to reject a hadith where the Prophet ordered a punishment would mean I did not know of qisas or eye4eye or I didnt know that the Prophet would order the killing of Banu Qurayza men, etc but I do know those things. This incident only becomes relevant when Bukhari quotes Anas bin Malik as saying both things (ordering or carrying out).

This chapter is closed as far as I am concerned as long as we are in agreement that narration  http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/76/9 is erroneous.

Good, then it should be no problem to say the red. I know you will not say this anymore, so I'll just leave you with this:

2:24
Sahih International
But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

 

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@ brother greatchinesefall. I have a sincere question for you brother. Can the prophet (sawas) order a type of punishment which is not mentioned in the quran? If yes, then does Allah tell the prophet how to punish someone or can the prophet decide whatever punishment or torture as he deems fit to the guilty party? Also do you take the saying "eye of a eye" literally? for example, lets say somebody tortured another person very slowly and it took the victim days or even weeks to die, does then islam allow you (or give the right) to do the same back to the criminal? Thank you. 

Edited by goldenhawk

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3 minutes ago, goldenhawk said:

@ brother greatchinesefall. I have a sincere question for you brother. Can the prophet (sawas) order a type of punishment which is not mentioned in the quran? If yes, then does Allah tell the prophet how to punish someone or can the prophet decide whatever punishment or torture as he deems fit? Thank you. 

I dont like discussing hypothetical situations as you do not gain anything from it, but the basic principle is that you accept from the Prophet what he gives and reject what he has forbidden. How he decides? I cant tell

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1 minute ago, GreatChineseFall said:

I dont like discussing hypothetical situations as you do not gain anything from it, but the basic principle is that you accept from the Prophet what he gives and reject what he has forbidden. How he decides? I cant tell

But surely you agree that the holy prophet (sawas) does only things which are approved of Allah and would never do against God. So what i am saying is, if you believe in the "eye for an eye" literally, then in principle, you would have to saying that torturing someone to death would not be going against Islam, if that is what the victims family wanted to do in the same way to the bad guy.

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3 minutes ago, goldenhawk said:

But surely you agree that the holy prophet (sawas) does only things which are approved of Allah and would never do against God. So what i am saying is, if you believe in the "eye for an eye" literally, then in principle, you would have to saying that torturing someone to death would not be going against Islam, if that is what the victims family wanted to do in the same way to the bad guy.

Sure, if there are limits then they can be found in the Qur'an and the Sunnah as the Prophet explained.

Edited by GreatChineseFall

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4 minutes ago, GreatChineseFall said:

Sure, if there are limits then they can be found in the Qur'an and the Sunnah as the Prophet explained.

Either the principle of "eye for an eye" must be done in the exactly the same way or possibly to a lesser extend if the victims family shows mercy. However, it can't exceed the punishment can it logically speaking? example, a person chopped off someones just one arm, that doesn't mean islam say that you can chop of both?

Edited by goldenhawk

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