Jump to content
Abu Hadi

Muslims in the West - Separation vs Integration

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

44 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Salam

1. Muslims are a threat to every culture out there and secular law, because, they seek to replace the order of humans with that of the Divine order while other religions and people have their own culture and also take on cultures of others and make their own rules, as well as implement secular law.  Christianity and Judaism has many of the same original rules of Islam, but, their people don't seek to implement them in today's world.  This is why in Surahs that advocate these teachings it's also emphasized not to fear people but fear God, not fear a blame of a blamer, and be sincere to God in his love and firm against the disbelieving people.  Every people abandoned this duty but obviously we cannot.   To be honest, we are in between rock and hard place.  Without an Imam present among us,  the laws of Islam are distorted to a degree yet it's not like we can ignore the laws of God as a society, we believe in the wisdom and teachings of the Shariah.  God knew we would have to endure, which is why, when you read about the Surahs teaching these things, it's emphasized a lot to have patience, to help God's cause, to be firm and seek assistance of God against the disbelieving people, to judge by what God revealed and refer all matters of dispute in society to God and his Messenger, and that we ought to no take others as authority besides those who God approved of. We are in a critical point and we desperately need the of the Imam of time to clarify the teachings of Islam.  We will not establish justice without him and we will not unite the world on Islam without him. At the same time, we are lost of words to defend every law of Islam. This is again why insight is needed on our part and not simply "we hear and obey" as in we follow God, but we need to truly perceive wisdom and defend the religion on insights from God.  

2. Even though it's a minority, there is too much of a significant minority that believe in violence and terrorism.  They see the ideals they strive for not to serve humans but as an end in themselves in which they are willing to sacrifice human lives for.  I personally am scared of this minority growing and becoming even more of a significant portion of Muslims. I am afraid because I see we don't guard against Iblis and his waswas, we take for granted for what we whispers to us as Islam, and people take zeal and extremism to be a sign of piety and being religious. I'm afraid of these people growing and becoming more significant, so I don't blame people not aware of the teachings of Islam for fearing it. I know Islam teaches against the path of these extreme idiotic zealous fanatics, but Satan has his way of making people ignore the clearest and brightest of teachings in God's book. 

3.  Some of the laws Muslims and their scholars advocate do go against the human nature in reality, that they truly are immoral.  People don't understand why we don't give up these morals and are scared of our mindset that is not willing to budge an iota of gram with what every human knows is true of human morality and dignity.  This is because we are in state that prefers following the structure of authority in our society rather then enjoining truth. There are some matters that Quran has clarified but yet we abandon...and we don't like accepting these teachings now particularly because the west advocates them while we don't. 

 

We are going to have be truthful. We cannot tell people, we don't want "Islam" to be implemented, yet we have to be honest and say "we cannot say the Islam presented by our religious leaders and institutions is the true Islam".

We await the Mahdi with a waiting of one who wishes to prepare society for him and is not willing to budge on the divine order that the final Messenger came with.  We believe in theocracy, and we believe in God's laws and implementation of his teachings.

We know the perfect implementation will only occur by Imam Mahdi. But society has to love to come to God and his guardian.

People are scared and I don't blame them. Without Imam Mahdi appearing, Islam on overwhelming majority scale can create huge injustice in how it has been passed down to us. It's carriers have not truly carried it and misrepresent it's teachings.  

I'm scared myself of Shariah become dominant in the world without Imam Mahdi. We see in some places women getting raped and then when coming out, they get accused of zina and lashed, and are punished or if married, are stoned to death. This is just one example. Imagine on a world scale this happens. Are societies going to stop rape because they wear the outer cloak of Islam?

People are scared, because, they are stuck between a rock and hard place. Deep down inside they feel Islam will become dominate as people gravitate to the idea of submitting to God over that of human orders and authority.  Yet they realize that the people attributing teachings to God have attributed quite a few of ugly things and things they aren't willing to budge on.

The mess will only be solved by recognizing we need a leader and guide from God. The remaining one of God's chosen ones, the inheritor of all knowledge and wisdom revealed by God, and the true seer of wisdom and justice.

 

 

 

What a load of hogwash. I know of very few people who are trying to implement sharia law in the West. This apparent phenomena only exists in the minds of Trump supporters.

Most of sharia is about improving oneself and not a culture or a country.

Your feeble attempts to discredit the scholars and marajae has not gone unnoticed. Instead of responding to each point you make, I will just say you have a gross misunderstanding of Islam.

Edited by shiaman14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

What a load of hogwash. I know of very few people who are trying to implement sharia law in the West. This apparent phenomena only exists in the minds of Trump supporters.

Most of sharia is about improving oneself and not a culture or a country.

Instead of responding to each point you make, I will just say you have a gross misunderstanding of Islam.

I don't mean to say Muslims want to force Shariah, but they do want society to become Muslim and then implement the Shariah. This is while if societies become Christian for example, they will not implement a "Christian Shariah". The people who are afraid are not afraid of a minority implementing the Shariah on a majority, they are afraid when we (and seems like it will happen) become the majority.

Part of the light of Quran is that it teaches to judge by what God revealed and implement his teachings.  Muslims don't believe they as a minority have the right to implement this on a majority, but as society gravitates to Islam (fasting growing religion), what will be the end when it becomes majority?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

I don't mean to say Muslims want to force Shariah, but they do want society to become Muslim and then implement the Shariah. This is while if societies become Christian for example, they will not implement a "Christian Shariah". The people who are afraid are not afraid of a minority implementing the Shariah on a majority, they are afraid when we (and seems like it will happen) become the majority.

Once again, total hogwash. If a Sunni wants to live under sharia (if there is such a thing), they can move to Saudi. Similarly, a shia can move toward Iran.

Do you want the entire society you live in to be Muslim? I don't. The 'society' that is talked about is one's own family. That is the extent of it. Improve yourself and improve your family. Stay out of others lives because there is no compulsion in faith.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Do you want the entire society you live in to be Muslim? I don't. 

Yes I do, but most importantly, I believe God does (so it's not about what I wish).

I think people are too much emphasizing on celebrating diversity and differences, while I believe we should strive hard as a society, in ones, twos, groups, etc, to come to the truth of this issue.

Quran is a miracle from God. It's a divine gift. The Wilayah of Ahlulbayt is how completed his favor upon humanity and completed his religion.

My personal wish maybe that God didn't send a religion at all, and that we can create our own standards depending on perceptions we grow to gain. Perhaps I wish there is nothing evil in sex out of wedlock to society or the individual. 

This is it. I believe I ought to submit to God. I believe the same is true of humans.

I believe we ought to seek the truth of this issue. If no religion is true, I want humanity to come to that conclusion. If Islam is the truth and it certainly is, then I do want humanity to recognize this great gift.

And I do believe Messengers wanted to prepare the world for Mohammad the final Messenger, but society didn't receive the Messengers and their revelations well enough, and didn't guard God's teachings.

I believe the umma was suppose to prepare the world for Imam Mahdi. 

I do believe in propagating Islam and it's teachings and that calling people to Islam and summoning people to the creed of Abraham, is enjoined by God.

I believe in sharing knowledge and that society ought to become enlightened with the path of submission to God through his chosen ones, mainly Mohammad and Ali, and their family.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Yes I do, but most importantly, I believe God does (so it's not about what I wish).

I think people are too much emphasizing on celebrating diversity and differences, while I believe we should strive hard as a society, in ones, twos, groups, etc, to come to the truth of this issue.

Quran is a miracle from God. It's a divine gift. The Wilayah of Ahlulbayt is how completed his favor upon humanity and completed his religion.

My personal wish maybe that God didn't send a religion at all, and that we can create our own standards depending on perceptions we grow to gain. Perhaps I wish there is nothing evil in sex out of wedlock to society or the individual. 

This is it. I believe I ought to submit to God. I believe the same is true of humans.

I believe we ought to seek the truth of this issue. If no religion is true, I want humanity to come to that conclusion. If Islam is the truth and it certainly is, then I do want humanity to recognize this great gift.

And I do believe Messengers wanted to prepare the world for Mohammad the final Messenger, but society didn't receive the Messengers and their revelations well enough, and didn't guard God's teachings.

I believe the umma was suppose to prepare the world for Imam Mahdi. 

I do believe in propagating Islam and it's teachings and that calling people to Islam and summoning people to the creed of Abraham, is enjoined by God.

I believe in sharing knowledge and that society ought to become enlightened with the path of submission to God through his chosen ones, mainly Mohammad and Ali, and their family.

If God wanted everyone to be Muslim, we would all be Muslim. Since there is no compulsion in faith, God does not want anyone to be anything. People choose who and what they want to be.

Look at all the Christians and Jews who lived in Medina during the life of the Prophet. Also, look at the Christians of Mubahila. The Prophet didn't force them to become Muslim. They came to the Prophet, both discussed faith, agreed to disagree upon it.

Propagating or dawah is very limited in Shia Islam at least. The focus is always on the improvement of the self.

Sorry to say brother (and people can correct me if I am wrong) but you have a very twisted interpretation of Islam. Not sure where you are getting all this from. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The focus is always on the improvement of the self.

If you try to help people understand things, you often come to greater understanding of yourself.

In Saheefa Sajjadiya, it says "And make us callers towards you". 

When people shy away from propagating the truth and not enjoin others to follow it, they make excuse themselves under some righteous pretense that their laziness and lack of resolve to help others and help God's cause is really virtuous because people can decide things for themselves.

When people see other Muslims sin, they think, well they already know better, why make it weird by giving advice to leave the evil.

We shy away from commanding to good and forbidding evil, and then the only ones being commanded to good and forbidding evil is people convinced they are following it anyways and it becomes as the saying goes "preaching to the choir".

I'm not saying to be pushy with your beliefs on to others or go to door to door like Jehovas, but propagating Islam is important. Teaching and spreading knowledge is important.

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

I don't mean to say Muslims want to force Shariah, but they do want society to become Muslim and then implement the Shariah. This is while if societies become Christian for example, they will not implement a "Christian Shariah". 

 

 

lol. If you don't live in a place where fundie Christians are railing about implementing a Bible-based government ( which includes getting rid of you evil Muzzies) consider yourself fortunate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

lol. If you don't live in a place where fundie Christians are railing about implementing a Bible-based government ( which includes getting rid of you evil Muzzies) consider yourself fortunate.

 

I would rather live around them than a bunch of sanctions-lovin', Rosewater-watchin', sodomy-apologist wannabes who are completely oblivious about how much of a disease they are to the world and to themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^lol!! Well, okay....but  I'm betting you wouldn't. That's why my Sunni friend de-camped from a particularly backwards part of the South. ( The cheap housing wasn't worth the stress.)

Even here, I spent some time yesterday at a community event at which a fellow citizen landed on my back in regards to my daughter's marriage to  Shia Muslim. Trying to make him understand why a Shia-majority country like Iran would be the last place to fund ISIS. And that there were Christians living in Muslim majority places who had always been there.

That is a half-hour of my life I won't get back.

PS...who is that fellow on your posts?

Edited by LeftCoastMom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

The Prophet summoned people to Islam. If he left people to themselves, we would not have Islam right now.

You are not the Prophet. His mission was to spread the message. Out mission is to adhere to it.

5 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

If you try to help people understand things, you often come to greater understanding of yourself.

In Saheefa Sajjadiya, it says "And make us callers towards you". 

When people shy away from propagating the truth and not enjoin others to follow it, they make excuse themselves under some righteous pretense that their laziness and lack of resolve to help others and help God's cause is really virtuous because people can decide things for themselves.

When people see other Muslims sin, they think, well they already know better, why make it weird by giving advice to leave the evil.

We shy away from commanding to good and forbidding evil, and then the only ones being commanded to good and forbidding evil is people convinced they are following it anyways and it becomes as the saying goes "preaching to the choir".

I'm not saying to be pushy with your beliefs on to others or go to door to door like Jehovas, but propagating Islam is important. Teaching and spreading knowledge is important.

 

You are still in the infancy of your faith where you still wish there was no religion so you could have sex outside of marriage. The more mature Muslims will tell you that Islamic laws are not a burden but a blessing and their objective is to make us better people.

Are you a perfect Muslim? If so, you could have a point. If not, then your only priority should be to fix you faith and not worry about others. 

Commanding to good and forbidding evil is absolutely part of the faith. But whom is this applicable to? First and foremost you need to apply this to your own nafs. Once you have fixed yourself, then apply it to your immediate and extended family and only then should you go to the rest of the world. 

If all of us focused more on ourselves than others, this world would be so much better for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I think that God doesn't have all people to live in just one country (no matter if is a western-high level life or a muslim country), some people feel they had bad luck or life doesn't go well in certain places, many people never come back to Bogota, because they feel things went bad while they were here. 

I think that if you do God's will everything will be ok, if is God's will you migrate, then migrate, if not, then stay.

The fact that muslim countries don't like foreigners, or foreigners married to natives, is not something from middle east only, as I said in another post, people don't like foreigners here, and many has been killed and this is a multicultural, mix raced (at an unbelievable level), roman-catholic latinamerican country. It happens in asian countries, it happens in black countries and it happens in almost every country, white people can be very racist too.

Maybe the people who agree with Abu hadi could migrate to a muslim country, and people that feel ok in the country where live currently could stay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

You are right Shiaman. This is my last post. I have to reform myself and gain knowledge.

ma'asalama

I hope I didn't offend you in any way. What I said applies to all of us starting  with me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/3/2016 at 11:15 PM, baradar_jackson said:

 

I would rather live around them than a bunch of sanctions-lovin', Rosewater-watchin', sodomy-apologist wannabes who are completely oblivious about how much of a disease they are to the world and to themselves.

Who exactly are these 'sanctions-lovin', Rosewater-watchin', sodomy-apologist wannabes'... i'm a bit confused 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Abu Hadi The issues you mentioned are prevalent not only in the West, but in most Muslim countries as well. In fact, I was having this discussion the other day and how Muslims in the West are way more compliant with religious obligations and generally more religious than Muslims on this side of the world. I cannot observe my hijab properly and remove it sometimes because of the comments I get. Abayas here are a joke and an insult to modesty. Full on makeup has become a norm and alcohol is well.. as normal as drinking water amongst Shia guys here. Atheism is rising as well (slowly, but it's happening). People here want to become more westernized and you're made fun of if you are religious. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/2/2016 at 3:16 PM, baradar_jackson said:

 

Bro I'm not saying we all gather in one state. I'm saying: in each city, we should all gather in one neighborhood.

Muslim succession! Invade the west then break off creating mini caliphates! 

KIDDING.

But on the serious side this wouldn't be a bad idea. I wish the US did this on a lot of different scales, own ethnicity, religions, races had their own neighborhoods, business, etc. not segregation but simply separation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/22/2016 at 2:19 PM, roya1b100d said:

Muslim succession! Invade the west then break off creating mini caliphates! 

KIDDING.

But on the serious side this wouldn't be a bad idea. I wish the US did this on a lot of different scales, own ethnicity, religions, races had their own neighborhoods, business, etc. not segregation but simply separation.

 

agreed. It's the only way to prevent homogenization. The word "ghetto" should not have such strong negative connotations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On July 22, 2016 at 2:19 PM, roya1b100d said:

Muslim succession! Invade the west then break off creating mini caliphates! 

KIDDING.

But on the serious side this wouldn't be a bad idea. I wish the US did this on a lot of different scales, own ethnicity, religions, races had their own neighborhoods, business, etc. not segregation but simply separation.

That's pretty much what happened in America with immigrants from different regions a few generations back. Still is that way in some areas. Sometimes it was even ( sadly) enforced by the dominant culture. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/7/2016 at 11:24 PM, Pearl178 said:

@Abu Hadi The issues you mentioned are prevalent not only in the West, but in most Muslim countries as well. In fact, I was having this discussion the other day and how Muslims in the West are way more compliant with religious obligations and generally more religious than Muslims on this side of the world. I cannot observe my hijab properly and remove it sometimes because of the comments I get. Abayas here are a joke and an insult to modesty. Full on makeup has become a norm and alcohol is well.. as normal as drinking water amongst Shia guys here. Atheism is rising as well (slowly, but it's happening). People here want to become more westernized and you're made fun of if you are religious. 

 

I've noticed that too, all protestant christians don't listen to music, and I've heard that some people do it in muslim countries, and when you try to have a conversation about God with christians, they talk about it for many hours without any problem, and if you try to do the same with muslims, they say to you very directly "I don't want to talk about God, I don't like to talk about religion, etc... I personally think that they day in which Islam doesn't exist anymore will come, and that the future will be worse, with much more mean people until just few people and few believers will last, and after that, the rapture, and Quran and Islam won't exist anymore. The prophecies also say that the knowledge of Islam will be passed out but anybody will put it in practice in the proper way or how it should be practiced.

I agree that east countries are turning out into western societies, but there are a lot of pressure among western countries and the elite press to, to make this happen. You always listen to comments about why turkey or muslim countries are not like western countries, etc.. and all this will lead to darkness and perdition.

the muslims will be like the foam of the sea, which means weak for the worldly things.

There is a prophecy too in which muslims will be muslim just the name, (just muslims in the day or just muslims at night) in general people who don't truly believe.

 

Edited by Nataly
I forgot to mention something

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

That's pretty much what happened in America with immigrants from different regions a few generations back. Still is that way in some areas. Sometimes it was even ( sadly) enforced by the dominant culture. 

 

Integration is what caused the cultural degeneration of every immigrant group in the US. Germans, Slavs, Hungarians, Irish, Italians. The descendants of those immigrants are now considered "white," and "whites" are generally perceived to have no culture. How did all those groups, with their own distinct heritage, all become united under this culture-less umbrella? Because they lost their ghettoes. When they lost their ghettoes they lost their sense of collective identity and culture.

 

Perhaps the only reason there are any US-born Muslims who actually give a hoot about their religion is because Muslim communities here have not integrated into the rest of society. Integration is a disease which presents itself as an antidote. It is essentially the abolition of culture. And when you abolish culture, what replaces it? Nonsensical so-called progressive ideas which are presented as lofty universal ideas; they are in fact simply appeals to the most base tendencies of human beings.

Edited by baradar_jackson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ oh, I dunno...the folks who dragged our grandparents and parents off to boarding schools and the like to be " re-educated" could hardly be labeled " progressive".  Fortunately, we are fighting back to retain our cultures. ..which happen to contain some very  " progressive' ideas.

( I hate dominant culture labels, though) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×