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In the Name of God بسم الله

Muslims in the West - Separation vs Integration

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I really wish there was a way I could leave the West. I can never leave the house without getting weird stares and whispers for wearing a black abaya. Not a day passes by where I don't hear about islamophobic behavior towards my friends and relatives. I don't think we muslims in the West will be able to deal with all this hate any longer. But unfortunately not most of us can just pack up our bags and migrate to a Muslim country. and which Muslim country is even safe for Shias other than Iran?  

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The examples you gave have always existed and i think in many respects there is more understanding about some of them because of greater awareness generally. A good example of greater understanding is with regards to alcohol. When Islam was little discussed most/many non-Mulsims wouldnt of known that alcohol was prohibited, so it would be assumed that people drank. Nowadays its commonly known alcohol is prohibited for Muslims so people automatically take that into account. Also, its more common for non-Muslims to be teetotal, either because of past addiction issues or personal choice, so people dont assume that people drink like they used to, which makes things easier. The growth in vegetarianism and veganism is also handy because its means most people who dont eat halal offer a vegetarian option.

Edited by Ruq
tired!
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Any group going  against the grain of a "dominant society "is going to have issues, whether you have a " different" religion, a different "lifestyle",the  settlers want you to do things their way,etc. Of course, we're not going anywhere. This is our land. Nowadays we  just keep on keeping on...and sometimes sue them if they try to mess us over.

I suspect Muslims, like the Irish Catholics when they first got here, will  suffer for a while and then eventually just be accepted. ( Of course, the Irish ,though discriminated against initially, had the advantage of being Caucasian, which means they could blend in a bit more easily....not all Muslims have that advantage)

It might be the area and perspective, too. Around here down in town I don't see people even batting an eye at tourists in hijab. Not sure other areas are as mellow.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Ruq said:

The examples you gave have always existed and i think in many respects there is more understanding about some of them because of greater awareness generally. A good example of greater understanding is with regards to alcohol. When Islam was little discussed most/many non-Mulsims wouldnt of known that alcohol was prohibited, so it would be assumed that people drank. Nowadays its commonly known alcohol is prohibited for Muslims so people automatically take that into account. Also, its more common for non-Muslims to be teetotal, either because of past addiction issues or personal choice, so people dont assume that people drink like they used to, which makes things easier. The growth in vegetarianism and veganism is also handy because its means most people who dont eat halal offer a vegetarian option.

You must live in a very enlightened community. This doesn't apply to most of us. 

As an example, when I was a grad student at Michigan State University, a professor decided to hold our final discussion session for the class in bar next to campus. When I told him that I couldn't attend the session because I was muslim and we are not allowed to go into bars, he said he would find an alternative for me to get credit, which he didn't. I lost 20% of my grade for the class. This was Michigan, the State in the US with the highest percentage of muslims. 

If you really think the non muslim are so enlightened now with regards to this subject, why don't you ask brothers and sisters  to related similar stories from their own lives. There are lots and lots of them, and many are very recent. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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No, there's no need for Muslims to do hijra UNLESS a Muslim himself commits major sins everyday (and cannot stop it) thus he should migrate.

The dilemmas you mentioned makes the life of a Muslim difficult, but it's the responsibility of the Muslim himself to open up and tell his friends etc. his problems. He cannot complain about "handshaking" when he himself haven't told his friends that he can't shake hands. WE have a responsibility. Allahs (swt) earth is great and massive, we Muslims can easily live with our co-human beings, we just need to remember that we also have to play our part. 

 

The example you mentioned with the Prophet (saaw) can't (in my humble opinion) not be applied to ours, because we're not (at least the majority) to death etc. We face some problems which we may solve.

You mention these problems brother, and yes, we may find them amongst many Muslims, but why not mention that many Muslims have learned to cope with this? For example, people know I don't drink alcohol, therefore it's not "weird" if I don't join parties. Why? Because they KNOW I'm a Muslim.

 

How beautiful is it that we live in a free West which has opened the doors for us to pray as we like. We can practice our own religion as we like. We can hold majalis etc. and at the same time travel to hajj, ziyarats etc. It's a grace from Allah (swt) that we can live in the West - we just have to remember that we need to make this grace unto something good and positive and not haraam hence, we need to know our responsibility. 

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10 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

 

As an example, when I was a grad student at Michigan State University, a professor decided to hold our final discussion session for the class in bar next to campus. When I told him that I couldn't attend the session because I was muslim and we are not allowed to go into bars, he said he would find an alternative for me to get credit, which he didn't. I lost 20% of my grade for the class. This was Michigan, the State in the US with the highest percentage of muslims. 

 

 

Wow....Muslims aside...what if someone was having sobriety or substance abuse problems? A lot of committed Christians of the teetotaling Protestant sort will not be caught dead in a bar.  I'm sure Michigan has a full complement of those.

He should have checked it out with the students. The class is for you to learn, not to go hang out in bars. That prof wasn't very sensitive. I went to grad school here on the Leftist Coast back in the high old times and no  professor ever held a session in a bar.

Stupid idea. Sorry that happened.

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Having lived in the West for 25+ years, I have no problem maintaining an Islamic lifestyle while at the same time integrating with the West.

I find most people to be quite accommodating when informed of our practices.

I am sorry to say but we have made Islam more difficult than it really is. 

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I feel more liberty to express my views here about religion then anywhere else. I don't feel oppressed or marginalized.  Of course, Islam is hard to hold on to, because it doesn't tolerate insincerity to God and valuing things on par with God and warns either it's going to be God at the center of your heart and goal in life or Satan is going to be that though people are unaware of their worship of Satan when they do worship him, and because it's of a higher realm that teaches to go against our base desires and what we wish to be free to do. If one truly believes in the moral teachings of God's right upon humanity on earth and the degree of evil of turning away from that right,  they will be distressed in whatever society they grow in. 

The Taghut is everywhere right now,  there is very little of what Quran emphasizes in Suratal Asr "those who enjoin upon each other the truth".

Truth doesn't matter to most societies and people, we are united on not finding the truth but following our culture, religions, sects or leaders. 

 

 

 

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I guess it's harder for the ones who've moved to the West in later years of their life. I moved here 2 years ago, and I can never seem to integrate. It's completely different coming from a Muslim country, where everyone's practicing Islam and then suddenly moving to the West and living with the Western culture. I know living in the West has it's own benefits and freedom, and it might even be better than most of the Muslim countries today, but it is quite challenging to live here as a Muslim. I've seen many who apostated after moving to the West because they found Islam to be too 'conservative'.

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There is a clash of cultures, that is for sure. But there are things that are against Islam in Muslim countries and are more vital importance with regards to justice and fairness, but we don't care. Some people the central emphasis has become about avoiding unlawful sex and the laws surrounding that, eating halal meat, and avoiding alcohol. That is fair and good to do, but is this all we should be known for by the west?

It's time to raise our game a little, get to be known for our philosophical outlooks and reflections, our spiritual insights, for being free of the deceptive world and it's allurements....be known for our mercy to the poor and oppressed, be known for charity and kindness, be believers that Quran describes as holding back their anger and forgiving when they get angry.

The fact is we are hated, because, this all we tell people of Islam. We can't pork, we can't drink alcohol, and we can't date, and our women must cover... Like people are going to wonder why are we being forbidden these freedoms? 

We are meant to show a different path, but we show the same tracks in adhering to culture, leaders, and blind following what we have no knowledge of.

We aren't that army of "Rabaniyoon" that Quran teaches all Prophets commanded people to become.

We are as greedy for Dunya as everyone else. Our manners toward God, his Messenger, Imams, and people in general, are not much better then others.

We aren't carrying the light.  I am sure if we step up our game,  and be known for other than what we clash with the west with now , it will become easier to practice faith and more people would as well be attracted to it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

You must live in a very enlightened community. This doesn't apply to most of us. 

As an example, when I was a grad student at Michigan State University, a professor decided to hold our final discussion session for the class in bar next to campus. When I told him that I couldn't attend the session because I was muslim and we are not allowed to go into bars, he said he would find an alternative for me to get credit, which he didn't. I lost 20% of my grade for the class. This was Michigan, the State in the US with the highest percentage of muslims. 

If you really think the non muslim are so enlightened now with regards to this subject, why don't you ask brothers and sisters  to related similar stories from their own lives. There are lots and lots of them, and many are very recent. 

 

How multicultural your town is might factor into it. I havent got any tales from college, but when i was at secondary school the Muslim students would be allowed to miss PE during ramadhan and the girls didnt have to wear t shirts and shorts. I also know people who are allowed to take prayers breaks during work even though they work for companies that arent run by Muslims.

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I had the idea (which was only half-serious) that Muslims in every city should all choose to move to one very specific area. Their presence alone should lower property values, thus making it more accessible for people to live there. And this will perpetuate the influx of Muslims. We will call it: Ghetto Heights.

 

It's a fact: it will be far easier on us to live here if we were all living together. Bro @Abu Hadi I'm sure you've been to Hamtramck. Them dudes recite adhan publicly, in the streets. Why? Because they all live in a highly concentrated area.

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11 minutes ago, baradar_jackson said:

I had the idea (which was only half-serious) that Muslims in every city should all choose to move to one very specific area. Their presence alone should lower property values, thus making it more accessible for people to live there. And this will perpetuate the influx of Muslims. We will call it: Ghetto Heights.

 

It's a fact: it will be far easier on us to live here if we were all living together. Bro @Abu Hadi I'm sure you've been to Hamtramck. Them dudes recite adhan publicly, in the streets. Why? Because they all live in a highly concentrated area.

Needs referendum from the Muslim population to which of the 50 states they would like to settle in and agree on the majority vote !

Best to first address racism in the Islamic community ! ( seriously - sarcastic )

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13 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

Needs referendum from the Muslim population to which of the 50 states they would like to settle in and agree on the majority vote !

Best to first address racism in the Islamic community ! ( seriously - sarcastic )

 

Bro I'm not saying we all gather in one state. I'm saying: in each city, we should all gather in one neighborhood.

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12 minutes ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

Bro I'm not saying we all gather in one state. I'm saying: in each city, we should all gather in one neighborhood.

That too would need referendum and abolishment of racism in the Shia community .

Indian, Pakistani , afghani , Iranian, Iraqi, Lebanese , African Americans , white Americans , etc in one neighborhood ? Lol

As far as I know each like their own territory with their own language and culture and own mosque...

I agree with your half serious comment lol.

Edited by certainclarity
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For converts, I would imagine this issue is a lot more complicated. We often lack the resources, most of us do not have connections or familial or fraternal ties to Muslim-majority countries, a lot of us lack language skills and Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, Turkish, Bengali, etc I'd imagine would be very difficult for us to learn. Even the idea of moving to communities like Dearborn, various neighborhoods in Northern New Jersey, New York, California, Maryland, Chicago and Houston (where the Muslim population is growing), or Luton and Birmingham (for our British brothers and sisters) is a long-shot for a lot of us. Also, there is the problem of us gaining full acceptance from different cultures. No matter how sincere the convert may be, no matter how much of a love the convert may have for a particular culture or nationality, there is the fact that he/she may face difficulties making Hijra and trying to blend in with a different culture.

I can see Abu Hadi's point, and he is right about implications of Muslims living in the west. Unlike some Muslim figures who speak on this issue and downplay the importance of location and living arrangements for committed Muslims, there is a lot to be said about having a "good neighborhood", and being around your brothers and sisters of faith, being away from the highly sexualized and anti-Islamic culture that defines the contemporary west, with it's promotion of free mixing, free sex, alcohol, violence, forbidden foods, materialistic outlooks and worldviews and the growing prejudice against Muslims and anything to do with Islam or Middle East culture. It would nice and something to be encourage if all Muslims had easy means to do so.

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3 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

This is a topic I have thought about alot. 

It is obvious to most practicing muslims who live in the West that each year that passes, it is getting harder and harder to practice our faith without 'compromising' and getting into haram, at one level or another. It is also getting harder and harder to stand against the society in order to preserve the faith of our children. 

The examples are numerous, from sisters being discriminated against and looked at with suspicion just because they choose to dress modestly, to handshakes with the opposite gender being a social requirement for most interactions, to business meetings and academic meetings being held in places where people are drinking alcohol, to companies and businesses refusing to give their employees time off on Friday to attend the Friday prayers or giving them time or a place to pray at work, to most careers involving haram transactions or activities at some point, etc. 

Most practicing muslims have been pigeon holed into one or two career choices (IT or Medicine), and even pigeon holed further within these fields. 

It is well known, that when Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) was unable to practice Islam in Mecca, due to prevailing conditions in the society, he left Mecca and established himself in a new place, Medina. Is it time for muslims who live in the West to do Hijra, either to leave the West, or to establish a 'Muslim friendly zone' within the West or to live as we live now, continuing to suffer trials and tribulations with patience while we are mocked and marginalized by the larger society ? 

 

Salamun alaykum.

Not all the people are the same. So IMO, we can not have the same ruling for all people. Interestingly, Allah (SWT) has referred to this difference in the Noble Quran. Based on these Verses, some are justified for not migrating and some are not:

Chapter al-Nisa', Verses 97-100:

إِنَّ الَّذينَ تَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلائِكَةُ ظالِمي‏ أَنْفُسِهِمْ قالُوا فيمَ كُنْتُمْ قالُوا كُنَّا مُسْتَضْعَفينَ فِي الْأَرْضِ قالُوا أَ لَمْ تَكُنْ أَرْضُ اللَّهِ واسِعَةً فَتُهاجِرُوا فيها فَأُولئِكَ مَأْواهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ وَ ساءَتْ مَصيراً (97)
Indeed, those whom the angels take away while they are wronging themselves, they ask," What state were you in?" They reply," We were abased in the land." They say," Was not Allah's earth vast enough so that you might migrate in it?" The refuge of such shall be hell, and it is an evil destination.


إِلاَّ الْمُسْتَضْعَفينَ مِنَ الرِّجالِ وَ النِّساءِ وَ الْوِلْدانِ لا يَسْتَطيعُونَ حيلَةً وَ لا يَهْتَدُونَ سَبيلاً (98)
Except the abased among men, women and children, who have neither access to any means nor are guided to any way.


فَأُولئِكَ عَسَى اللَّهُ أَنْ يَعْفُوَ عَنْهُمْ وَ كانَ اللَّهُ عَفُوًّا غَفُوراً (99)
Maybe Allah will excuse them, for Allah is all-excusing, all-forgiving.


وَ مَنْ يُهاجِرْ في‏ سَبيلِ اللَّهِ يَجِدْ فِي الْأَرْضِ مُراغَماً كَثيراً وَ سَعَةً وَ مَنْ يَخْرُجْ مِنْ بَيْتِهِ مُهاجِراً إِلَى اللَّهِ وَ رَسُولِهِ ثُمَّ يُدْرِكْهُ الْمَوْتُ فَقَدْ وَقَعَ أَجْرُهُ عَلَى اللَّهِ وَ كانَ اللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَحيماً (100)
Whoever migrates in the way of Allah will find many havens and plenitude in the earth. And whoever leaves his home migrating toward Allah and His Apostle, and is then overtaken by death, his reward shall certainly fall on Allah, and Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful.

 

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I am not saying i have a solution for this question. Just putting the topic out there. Dearborn should not be used as a model of an Islamic society in the West. Those who live here probably know what i  am talking about. We need a better model. Also @Ruq, you Aussies sent Murdoch over here, he has done alot more damage here than he has over there

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Not to throw a monkey wrench in the gears. (I don't have a dog in this fight. )

But I have a friend married to a native of a "Muslim country" and currently living there with him for now. She says the natives of the region  purely hate it when "Muslim convert westerners "try move there trying to escape " the evil West".

" Nobody wants them. Nobody likes them. Nobody asked them to come here."

I haven't been able to ask her what that's all about yet today, but I'm betting it has something to do with ethnicity and culture.

 

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On 7/2/2016 at 4:40 PM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

There is a clash of cultures, that is for sure. But there are things that are against Islam in Muslim countries and are more vital importance with regards to justice and fairness, but we don't care. Some people the central emphasis has become about avoiding unlawful sex and the laws surrounding that, eating halal meat, and avoiding alcohol. That is fair and good to do, but is this all we should be known for by the west?

It's time to raise our game a little, get to be known for our philosophical outlooks and reflections, our spiritual insights, for being free of the deceptive world and it's allurements....be known for our mercy to the poor and oppressed, be known for charity and kindness, be believers that Quran describes as holding back their anger and forgiving when they get angry.

 

We are meant to show a different path, but we show the same tracks in adhering to culture, leaders, and blind following what we have no knowledge of

The comment I quoted has very good points. There are bigger issues in Muslim countries. When you live in a Muslim community, you are able to see these issues. Imagine a group of people are attacking a single person, emotionally abusing that person everyday. You are afraid to say anything or defend that person because you know if you do that, you will become their target. So you just ignore the voice of your conscience everyday. You think about when will that person commit suicide and if that person does commit suicide, will you be considered one of murderers? You ignore the voice of your conscience daily until one day it becomes completely silent. You see cruel people oppressing people for years and they only receive rewards for their actions. You wait for years to see if they will ever get punished but they only become more powerful and then you start to question if there is a God. This is what you have to deal with in Muslim countries. Until they start killing Muslims, I am not moving back home, no matter how much harassment I face in the west.

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3 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Not to throw a monkey wrench in the gears. (I don't have a dog in this fight. )

But I have a friend married to a native of a "Muslim country" and currently living there with him for now. She says the natives of the region  purely hate it when "Muslim convert westerners "try move there trying to escape " the evil West".

" Nobody wants them. Nobody likes them. Nobody asked them to come here."

I haven't been able to ask her what that's all about yet today, but I'm betting it has something to do with ethnicity and culture.

 


Yes, and that will be a big problem and a source of many headaches and heartbreaks for converts who decide to make hijra. Personally, I love the idea of hijra, and I would do it if I can acquire necessary language skills and some in-demand technical skills (in order to attain decent employment and economic well-being in the target country), but there even with those satisfied, the problem of fitting-in will persist convert on hijra. Humans need social interaction and feelings of acceptance.

Sometimes, instead of remaining in the west or going to a Muslim-majority country, I have pondered going to China, which is an ascending power with more optimistic economic forecasts.

Edited by MustafaE
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9 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Not to throw a monkey wrench in the gears. (I don't have a dog in this fight. )

But I have a friend married to a native of a "Muslim country" and currently living there with him for now. She says the natives of the region  purely hate it when "Muslim convert westerners "try move there trying to escape " the evil West".

" Nobody wants them. Nobody likes them. Nobody asked them to come here."

I haven't been able to ask her what that's all about yet today, but I'm betting it has something to do with ethnicity and culture.

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying the West is 'evil'. In fact there are parts of Islam that are put into practice in the West that are not generally practiced in majority muslim countries. Care for the elderly thru Social Security and Medicare and making post secondary education widely available thru the Community College system are two examples. 

At the same time, you see politicians, such as Trump making noises about 'banning all muslims' from the US. Now even if Trump is elected, the chances of him actually doing this are small, but at the same time, this type of rhetoric filters down to the uninformed masses and this reinforces the false but widely held belief that muslims (as a whole) are somehow a threat to the US and then people start to act against this perceived 'threat' based on what they have the ability to do and based on their own level of ignorance.

The solution of course is education and interaction of US population with actual muslims(who actually put the religion to practice in their lives). Whether this will ever happen on a large scale, don't know. 

 

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^ Yes, I didn't say you said the West was evil...this is a tongue-in-cheek quote from her. Lol. Guess the idea of a migration of Muslims from the West ( or anywhere else) to "Muslim lands "in the Middle East (?) or other parts is intriguing. How would such a thing be possible? Do their immigration policies allow for that? Wouldn't that put a strain on their resources? What about cultural clashes there? How would one support a family? What if the kids hate it? About a thousand questions come to mind.

I guess it might be easier for you, being married to someone from there.

The dual-culture Shia person living in our family says he finds both sides of the coin equally irritating sometimes. Is glad he now lives in the "Fourth World." Lol.

 

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Salam

1. Muslims are a threat to every culture out there and secular law, because, they seek to replace the order of humans with that of the Divine order while other religions and people have their own culture and also take on cultures of others and make their own rules, as well as implement secular law.  Christianity and Judaism has many of the same original rules of Islam, but, their people don't seek to implement them in today's world.  This is why in Surahs that advocate these teachings it's also emphasized not to fear people but fear God, not fear a blame of a blamer, and be sincere to God in his love and firm against the disbelieving people.  Every people abandoned this duty but obviously we cannot.   To be honest, we are in between rock and hard place.  Without an Imam present among us,  the laws of Islam are distorted to a degree yet it's not like we can ignore the laws of God as a society, we believe in the wisdom and teachings of the Shariah.  God knew we would have to endure, which is why, when you read about the Surahs teaching these things, it's emphasized a lot to have patience, to help God's cause, to be firm and seek assistance of God against the disbelieving people, to judge by what God revealed and refer all matters of dispute in society to God and his Messenger, and that we ought to no take others as authority besides those who God approved of. We are in a critical point and we desperately need the of the Imam of time to clarify the teachings of Islam.  We will not establish justice without him and we will not unite the world on Islam without him. At the same time, we are lost of words to defend every law of Islam. This is again why insight is needed on our part and not simply "we hear and obey" as in we follow God, but we need to truly perceive wisdom and defend the religion on insights from God.  

2. Even though it's a minority, there is too much of a significant minority that believe in violence and terrorism.  They see the ideals they strive for not to serve humans but as an end in themselves in which they are willing to sacrifice human lives for.  I personally am scared of this minority growing and becoming even more of a significant portion of Muslims. I am afraid because I see we don't guard against Iblis and his waswas, we take for granted for what we whispers to us as Islam, and people take zeal and extremism to be a sign of piety and being religious. I'm afraid of these people growing and becoming more significant, so I don't blame people not aware of the teachings of Islam for fearing it. I know Islam teaches against the path of these extreme idiotic zealous fanatics, but Satan has his way of making people ignore the clearest and brightest of teachings in God's book. 

3.  Some of the laws Muslims and their scholars advocate do go against the human nature in reality, that they truly are immoral.  People don't understand why we don't give up these morals and are scared of our mindset that is not willing to budge an iota of gram with what every human knows is true of human morality and dignity.  This is because we are in state that prefers following the structure of authority in our society rather then enjoining truth. There are some matters that Quran has clarified but yet we abandon...and we don't like accepting these teachings now particularly because the west advocates them while we don't. 

 

We are going to have be truthful. We cannot tell people, we don't want "Islam" to be implemented, yet we have to be honest and say "we cannot say the Islam presented by our religious leaders and institutions is the true Islam".

We await the Mahdi with a waiting of one who wishes to prepare society for him and is not willing to budge on the divine order that the final Messenger came with.  We believe in theocracy, and we believe in God's laws and implementation of his teachings.

We know the perfect implementation will only occur by Imam Mahdi. But society has to love to come to God and his guardian.

People are scared and I don't blame them. Without Imam Mahdi appearing, Islam on overwhelming majority scale can create huge injustice in how it has been passed down to us. It's carriers have not truly carried it and misrepresent it's teachings.  

I'm scared myself of Shariah become dominant in the world without Imam Mahdi. We see in some places women getting raped and then when coming out, they get accused of zina and lashed, and are punished or if married, are stoned to death. This is just one example. Imagine on a world scale this happens. Are societies going to stop rape because they wear the outer cloak of Islam?

People are scared, because, they are stuck between a rock and hard place. Deep down inside they feel Islam will become dominate as people gravitate to the idea of submitting to God over that of human orders and authority.  Yet they realize that the people attributing teachings to God have attributed quite a few of ugly things and things they aren't willing to budge on.

The mess will only be solved by recognizing we need a leader and guide from God. The remaining one of God's chosen ones, the inheritor of all knowledge and wisdom revealed by God, and the true seer of wisdom and justice.

 

 

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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44 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Salam

1. Muslims are a threat to every culture out there and secular law, because, they seek to replace the order of humans with that of the Divine order while other religions and people have their own culture and also take on cultures of others and make their own rules, as well as implement secular law.  Christianity and Judaism has many of the same original rules of Islam, but, their people don't seek to implement them in today's world.  This is why in Surahs that advocate these teachings it's also emphasized not to fear people but fear God, not fear a blame of a blamer, and be sincere to God in his love and firm against the disbelieving people.  Every people abandoned this duty but obviously we cannot.   To be honest, we are in between rock and hard place.  Without an Imam present among us,  the laws of Islam are distorted to a degree yet it's not like we can ignore the laws of God as a society, we believe in the wisdom and teachings of the Shariah.  God knew we would have to endure, which is why, when you read about the Surahs teaching these things, it's emphasized a lot to have patience, to help God's cause, to be firm and seek assistance of God against the disbelieving people, to judge by what God revealed and refer all matters of dispute in society to God and his Messenger, and that we ought to no take others as authority besides those who God approved of. We are in a critical point and we desperately need the of the Imam of time to clarify the teachings of Islam.  We will not establish justice without him and we will not unite the world on Islam without him. At the same time, we are lost of words to defend every law of Islam. This is again why insight is needed on our part and not simply "we hear and obey" as in we follow God, but we need to truly perceive wisdom and defend the religion on insights from God.  

2. Even though it's a minority, there is too much of a significant minority that believe in violence and terrorism.  They see the ideals they strive for not to serve humans but as an end in themselves in which they are willing to sacrifice human lives for.  I personally am scared of this minority growing and becoming even more of a significant portion of Muslims. I am afraid because I see we don't guard against Iblis and his waswas, we take for granted for what we whispers to us as Islam, and people take zeal and extremism to be a sign of piety and being religious. I'm afraid of these people growing and becoming more significant, so I don't blame people not aware of the teachings of Islam for fearing it. I know Islam teaches against the path of these extreme idiotic zealous fanatics, but Satan has his way of making people ignore the clearest and brightest of teachings in God's book. 

3.  Some of the laws Muslims and their scholars advocate do go against the human nature in reality, that they truly are immoral.  People don't understand why we don't give up these morals and are scared of our mindset that is not willing to budge an iota of gram with what every human knows is true of human morality and dignity.  This is because we are in state that prefers following the structure of authority in our society rather then enjoining truth. There are some matters that Quran has clarified but yet we abandon...and we don't like accepting these teachings now particularly because the west advocates them while we don't. 

 

We are going to have be truthful. We cannot tell people, we don't want "Islam" to be implemented, yet we have to be honest and say "we cannot say the Islam presented by our religious leaders and institutions is the true Islam".

We await the Mahdi with a waiting of one who wishes to prepare society for him and is not willing to budge on the divine order that the final Messenger came with.  We believe in theocracy, and we believe in God's laws and implementation of his teachings.

We know the perfect implementation will only occur by Imam Mahdi. But society has to love to come to God and his guardian.

People are scared and I don't blame them. Without Imam Mahdi appearing, Islam on overwhelming majority scale can create huge injustice in how it has been passed down to us. It's carriers have not truly carried it and misrepresent it's teachings.  

I'm scared myself of Shariah become dominant in the world without Imam Mahdi. We see in some places women getting raped and then when coming out, they get accused of zina and lashed, and are punished or if married, are stoned to death. This is just one example. Imagine on a world scale this happens. Are societies going to stop rape because they wear the outer cloak of Islam?

People are scared, because, they are stuck between a rock and hard place. Deep down inside they feel Islam will become dominate as people gravitate to the idea of submitting to God over that of human orders and authority.  Yet they realize that the people attributing teachings to God have attributed quite a few of ugly things and things they aren't willing to budge on.

The mess will only be solved by recognizing we need a leader and guide from God. The remaining one of God's chosen ones, the inheritor of all knowledge and wisdom revealed by God, and the true seer of wisdom and justice.

 

 

 

What a load of hogwash. I know of very few people who are trying to implement sharia law in the West. This apparent phenomena only exists in the minds of Trump supporters.

Most of sharia is about improving oneself and not a culture or a country.

Your feeble attempts to discredit the scholars and marajae has not gone unnoticed. Instead of responding to each point you make, I will just say you have a gross misunderstanding of Islam.

Edited by shiaman14
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6 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

What a load of hogwash. I know of very few people who are trying to implement sharia law in the West. This apparent phenomena only exists in the minds of Trump supporters.

Most of sharia is about improving oneself and not a culture or a country.

Instead of responding to each point you make, I will just say you have a gross misunderstanding of Islam.

I don't mean to say Muslims want to force Shariah, but they do want society to become Muslim and then implement the Shariah. This is while if societies become Christian for example, they will not implement a "Christian Shariah". The people who are afraid are not afraid of a minority implementing the Shariah on a majority, they are afraid when we (and seems like it will happen) become the majority.

Part of the light of Quran is that it teaches to judge by what God revealed and implement his teachings.  Muslims don't believe they as a minority have the right to implement this on a majority, but as society gravitates to Islam (fasting growing religion), what will be the end when it becomes majority?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

I don't mean to say Muslims want to force Shariah, but they do want society to become Muslim and then implement the Shariah. This is while if societies become Christian for example, they will not implement a "Christian Shariah". The people who are afraid are not afraid of a minority implementing the Shariah on a majority, they are afraid when we (and seems like it will happen) become the majority.

Once again, total hogwash. If a Sunni wants to live under sharia (if there is such a thing), they can move to Saudi. Similarly, a shia can move toward Iran.

Do you want the entire society you live in to be Muslim? I don't. The 'society' that is talked about is one's own family. That is the extent of it. Improve yourself and improve your family. Stay out of others lives because there is no compulsion in faith.

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6 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Do you want the entire society you live in to be Muslim? I don't. 

Yes I do, but most importantly, I believe God does (so it's not about what I wish).

I think people are too much emphasizing on celebrating diversity and differences, while I believe we should strive hard as a society, in ones, twos, groups, etc, to come to the truth of this issue.

Quran is a miracle from God. It's a divine gift. The Wilayah of Ahlulbayt is how completed his favor upon humanity and completed his religion.

My personal wish maybe that God didn't send a religion at all, and that we can create our own standards depending on perceptions we grow to gain. Perhaps I wish there is nothing evil in sex out of wedlock to society or the individual. 

This is it. I believe I ought to submit to God. I believe the same is true of humans.

I believe we ought to seek the truth of this issue. If no religion is true, I want humanity to come to that conclusion. If Islam is the truth and it certainly is, then I do want humanity to recognize this great gift.

And I do believe Messengers wanted to prepare the world for Mohammad the final Messenger, but society didn't receive the Messengers and their revelations well enough, and didn't guard God's teachings.

I believe the umma was suppose to prepare the world for Imam Mahdi. 

I do believe in propagating Islam and it's teachings and that calling people to Islam and summoning people to the creed of Abraham, is enjoined by God.

I believe in sharing knowledge and that society ought to become enlightened with the path of submission to God through his chosen ones, mainly Mohammad and Ali, and their family.

 

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17 minutes ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

Yes I do, but most importantly, I believe God does (so it's not about what I wish).

I think people are too much emphasizing on celebrating diversity and differences, while I believe we should strive hard as a society, in ones, twos, groups, etc, to come to the truth of this issue.

Quran is a miracle from God. It's a divine gift. The Wilayah of Ahlulbayt is how completed his favor upon humanity and completed his religion.

My personal wish maybe that God didn't send a religion at all, and that we can create our own standards depending on perceptions we grow to gain. Perhaps I wish there is nothing evil in sex out of wedlock to society or the individual. 

This is it. I believe I ought to submit to God. I believe the same is true of humans.

I believe we ought to seek the truth of this issue. If no religion is true, I want humanity to come to that conclusion. If Islam is the truth and it certainly is, then I do want humanity to recognize this great gift.

And I do believe Messengers wanted to prepare the world for Mohammad the final Messenger, but society didn't receive the Messengers and their revelations well enough, and didn't guard God's teachings.

I believe the umma was suppose to prepare the world for Imam Mahdi. 

I do believe in propagating Islam and it's teachings and that calling people to Islam and summoning people to the creed of Abraham, is enjoined by God.

I believe in sharing knowledge and that society ought to become enlightened with the path of submission to God through his chosen ones, mainly Mohammad and Ali, and their family.

If God wanted everyone to be Muslim, we would all be Muslim. Since there is no compulsion in faith, God does not want anyone to be anything. People choose who and what they want to be.

Look at all the Christians and Jews who lived in Medina during the life of the Prophet. Also, look at the Christians of Mubahila. The Prophet didn't force them to become Muslim. They came to the Prophet, both discussed faith, agreed to disagree upon it.

Propagating or dawah is very limited in Shia Islam at least. The focus is always on the improvement of the self.

Sorry to say brother (and people can correct me if I am wrong) but you have a very twisted interpretation of Islam. Not sure where you are getting all this from. 

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22 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The focus is always on the improvement of the self.

If you try to help people understand things, you often come to greater understanding of yourself.

In Saheefa Sajjadiya, it says "And make us callers towards you". 

When people shy away from propagating the truth and not enjoin others to follow it, they make excuse themselves under some righteous pretense that their laziness and lack of resolve to help others and help God's cause is really virtuous because people can decide things for themselves.

When people see other Muslims sin, they think, well they already know better, why make it weird by giving advice to leave the evil.

We shy away from commanding to good and forbidding evil, and then the only ones being commanded to good and forbidding evil is people convinced they are following it anyways and it becomes as the saying goes "preaching to the choir".

I'm not saying to be pushy with your beliefs on to others or go to door to door like Jehovas, but propagating Islam is important. Teaching and spreading knowledge is important.

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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1 hour ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

I don't mean to say Muslims want to force Shariah, but they do want society to become Muslim and then implement the Shariah. This is while if societies become Christian for example, they will not implement a "Christian Shariah". 

 

 

lol. If you don't live in a place where fundie Christians are railing about implementing a Bible-based government ( which includes getting rid of you evil Muzzies) consider yourself fortunate.

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3 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

lol. If you don't live in a place where fundie Christians are railing about implementing a Bible-based government ( which includes getting rid of you evil Muzzies) consider yourself fortunate.

 

I would rather live around them than a bunch of sanctions-lovin', Rosewater-watchin', sodomy-apologist wannabes who are completely oblivious about how much of a disease they are to the world and to themselves.

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^lol!! Well, okay....but  I'm betting you wouldn't. That's why my Sunni friend de-camped from a particularly backwards part of the South. ( The cheap housing wasn't worth the stress.)

Even here, I spent some time yesterday at a community event at which a fellow citizen landed on my back in regards to my daughter's marriage to  Shia Muslim. Trying to make him understand why a Shia-majority country like Iran would be the last place to fund ISIS. And that there were Christians living in Muslim majority places who had always been there.

That is a half-hour of my life I won't get back.

PS...who is that fellow on your posts?

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