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17 hours ago, Ali6 said:

My point was to illustrate a double-standard. On one hand, we take freedom of religion for granted in the West and on the other, we justify depriving people of this same freedom in Muslim countries. Imagine for a moment if non-Muslims treated us in the same way that we are treating them. Do you need a verse or hadith to teach you not to kill, steal, rape, etc? Most of morality is common sense because it stems from empathy which unfortunately, goes out the window in this case. And as for your question, yes, governments should and do let ISIS and ISIS-sympathizers spread their teachings (as long as they're not inciting violence). This is called freedom of speech and without it, I probably wouldn't be able to converse about Islam in an non-Muslim country right now.

 

 

 

That's full of the questions! we will discuss them but we need to move step by step. firstly I think we should make something clear, the method of researching about the Islamic point of view.

The point is that, how can we attribute a proposition to Islam? If we, as a man, think that something is correct, or something is based on the reason, or as you said if we think that something is relying on morality and common senses, is this enough to attribute it to Islam? For example, some people believe that the death penalty is morally rejected, so based on this sense are they able to say that the death penalty is rejected by Islam, too? Are we supposed to understand Islam through our mind and sense or we should try to get it through the established and reliable sources?

The same about the topic, you based on your reason and sense believe in freedom of religion, no problem, you as a man is free to believe it, but is that enough to attribute it to Islam? Even though there might be some hadiths which reject it strongly?

You know, when we are going to research about the Islamic perspective regarding a proposition we need to research the main sources to be sure that what's the exact point of Islam, and then, of course, we need to figure it out that why Islam supports that idea, and what's the reason behind it?

 

However, if you disagree with this point we can discuss a little bit more about it, but if you accept my words so far, then we can move further to speak about the Islamic view regarding the topic and examine some sources. Of course, after these steps we can discuss your own view and critiques about the Islamic doctrine.

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Islam does not have the liberal notion of freedoms including freedom of speech. It has its own set of rules and values. We shouldn't judge our religion based on western values. Instead we should view the world through the Islamic values and through it judge what's haq and what's batil.

In Islamic society, what is batil is eradicated and what's Haq is promoted, hence the movement towards light of guidance. Completely different ideology than western liberalism, where belief are deemed as relative and religious pluralism is encouraged.

Baha'ism is a false ideology, where belief in it removes one from Islam, hence must be eradicated from the society.

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Hello,

And you guys complain about and declare "Islamophobia" to be irrational?  A justifiable fear is not a phobia.

24 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

Islam does not have the liberal notion of freedoms including freedom of speech. It has its own set of rules and values. We shouldn't judge our religion based on western values. Instead we should view the world through the Islamic values and through it judge what's haq and what's batil.

In Islamic society, what is batil is eradicated and what's Haq is promoted, hence the movement towards light of guidance. Completely different ideology than western liberalism, where belief are deemed as relative and religious pluralism is encouraged.

Baha'ism is a false ideology, where belief in it removes one from Islam, hence must be eradicated from the society.

Who decides what is false and what must be eradicated from society?  You?  The Government?  Your chosen religion?

I am not sure how many Muslims believe the same as Shiawarrior313.  But, it seems enough agree to justify the fear many Westerners have of Islam.

We do not want to live in such a society.  We will resist those that push our society in that direction.  And, when you encounter such resistance in the West please to not scream "Islamophobia."  We are only standing up for the values we truly hold dear.

All the Best,

David

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8 minutes ago, David66 said:

Hello,

And you guys complain about and declare "Islamophobia" to be irrational?  A justifiable fear is not a phobia.

Who decides what is false and what must be eradicated from society?  You?  The Government?  Your chosen religion?

I am not sure how many Muslims believe the same as Shiawarrior313.  But, it seems enough agree to justify the fear many Westerners have of Islam.

We do not want to live in such a society.  We will resist those that push our society in that direction.  And, when you encounter such resistance in the West please to not scream "Islamophobia."  We are only standing up for the values we truly hold dear.

All the Best,

David

 

I was surprised at parts of his response too. If Iran wanted to eradicate Baha'ism then not a single Baha'i would be left in Iran. Even though Baha'ism is considered heresy but the adherents are allowed to practice their beliefs among themselves. It is the organized form and proselytization that is illegal.

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17 minutes ago, hadez803 said:

 

I was surprised at parts of his response too. If Iran wanted to eradicate Baha'ism then not a single Baha'i would be left in Iran. Even though Baha'ism is considered heresy but the adherents are allowed to practice their beliefs among themselves. It is the organized form and proselytization that is illegal.

What about when the Iranian government debars Baha'is from studying in universities? 

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11 minutes ago, Ali6 said:

What about when the Iranian government debars Baha'is from studying in universities? 

They are not barred from going to university but if they start proselytizing they are usually removed. That is the law in Iran and they know it yet they insist on breaking it. If they can't keep their mouths shut, it's there problem.

Let me tell you something: Baha'i claim there are about 300,000 Baha'is in Iran. Give each a lifespan of 60 years and you will have about 300,000/60 = 50,000 Baha'is in Iran reaching university age every year. The vast majority of these enter university and finish their studies without a problem. A very very small minority are removed due to proselytizing. These few are immediately used by the Baha'i UHJ as pawns for their game of playing the victim and propaganda against Iran.

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4 hours ago, Ali6 said:

What about when the Iranian government debars Baha'is from studying in universities? 

When you apply for University in Iran you have to indicate what religion you belong to prior to admission and you can only choose from Christianity, Islam, Judaism or Zoroastrianism which are 'recognised religions'.There is therefore no option for Bahia students to choose from, according to their scriptures they can't lie about their religion or do something like Taqiya so they have no choice but to not go University.The government doesn't technically bar them from admission but this is a way that prevents Bahais from getting enrolled.

I have heard about this University from my Bahais I know outside of Iran which runs behind closed doors in Iran called the Bahá'í Institute for Higher Education, which allows Bahai students to have an opportunity to obtain a university-level education and its degrees are recognised by some Universities outside of Iran. Most of the courses run by correspondence and mostly online, also in privately owned buildings where they have laboratories and other facilities.

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Bahaism being a false ideology requires no evidence other than its founder claiming to be messenger of Imam Mahdi, then messenger of Allah, and then manifestation of god. Its more surprising that Shias do not understand the falsehood in this. Islam deems anyone claiming to be prophet of Allah after the last messenger to be carrier of false belief.

This is an ideology that seeks to redefine prophet hood, much the same way, the Yemeni cult seeks to redefine imamat. Both must be fought against.

http://bahai-library.com/fananapazir_fazel_finality_islam

Eradication in this context means eventual removal of such ideology through soft means. Limiting their participation in the society is part of it.

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28 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

Eradication in this context means eventual removal of such ideology through soft means. Limiting their participation in the society is part of it.

Debarring Baha'is from attending university is a gross violation of their human rights. I don't understand how you can claim to follow Imam Hussein when he laid his life to fight against oppression. Think about it. The people of Kufa were ordinary folks who ended up murdering their own Imam and yet, despite foresight, Imam Hussein was willing to lay down his life when they asked for help. So regardless of what Baha'is believe, you cannot justify their oppression especially in the name of Islam. 

Edited by Ali6

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On ‎30‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 4:52 AM, Ali6 said:

On a personal level, I hate religious double-standards. For example, us, Muslims, celebrate when a disbeliever converts to Islam in an non-Muslim country but we justify executing Muslims who leave Islam in Muslim countries. Another example is that we enjoy freedom of religion in non-Muslim countries but ignore the plights of non-Muslims who are ill-treated in Muslim countries. Can a Hindu or Buddhist build a temple in Iran? And yet Shias can build Mosques in non-Muslim countries, right? 

I agree. Even among Muslims living in the West, a lot of the times I think to myself Muslims don't have any place in Europe, North America or elsewhere in the Western world with such thinking and attitudes towards others like Ahmadis or Bahais. When they bring up things such as these its turns my mood off.

I don't blame the people of Deutschland , UK and elsewhere for having a dislike of Muslims communities who refuse to integrate and show respect to other groups living amongst them. You will see a lot of these hypocritical people on places like Shiachat with these backward and out-dated views and irony is that they live in places like Germany such as one person in this thread,  where they have all these religious privileges and equal rights yet can't show respect for others and their beliefs.

 

Edited by Zendegi

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Imam Hussein was willing to lay down his life as soon as he refused to give allegiance to the tyrant of his time, not for kufis. His fate was sealed at that point, as Yazid wanted to martyr Imam Hussein at Mecca, where Imam Hussein cut short his Hajj ritual to avoid bloodshed. The people of Kufa sent letters to Imam Hussein, claiming their support for him and inviting him to their city. Imam Hussein sent Muslim ibn Aqeel to Kufa to test their truthfulness. Muslim's task was to prepare the groundwork for the coming of imam Hussein, by overthrowing the tyrant of the town, or report back. Muslim was then betrayed and was not able to convey the message of betrayal to imam Hussein.

The Bahia's do not constitute oppressors in Islam, as they are the enemies within. They are a cult which seeks to redefine the most important aspect of the devine religion (prophet hood) to their own end.

What I see here is a lack of understanding between liberalism and Islam. Liberalism doesn't care about which religion people practice at personal level, as long as it has no part in the social structure. Hence why people think they're free to practice their religion. However, if you seek to take that to social level (eg. Abolishing usury from the economy), you will be met with fierce resistance. Eventually, their aspects of society which is opposite of Devine faith (such as usury) which pollutes the Muslims and their children, to the point that within a generation or two there won't be much trace of Islam left within them. This is assimilation. This is what the west has perfected over the last few centuries, and hence why they don't need to outright resist other cultures, as they can eventually assimilate them.  

Islam is the opposite direction. It starts at the personal level, and builds towards a social structure, hence it's sensitive to personal beliefs, and fights against cults within the society.

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2 hours ago, Zendegi said:

When you apply for University in Iran you have to indicate what religion you belong to prior to admission and you can only choose from Christianity, Islam, Judaism or Zoroastrianism which are 'recognised religions'.There is therefore no option for Bahia students to choose from, according to their scriptures they can't lie about their religion or do something like Taqiya so they have no choice but to not go University.The government doesn't technically bar them from admission but this is a way that prevents Bahais from getting enrolled.

I have heard about this University from my Bahais I know outside of Iran which runs behind closed doors in Iran called the Bahá'í Institute for Higher Education, which allows Bahai students to have an opportunity to obtain a university-level education and its degrees are recognised by some Universities outside of Iran. Most of the courses run by correspondence and mostly online, also in privately owned buildings where they have laboratories and other facilities.

1- They lie just like their leaders who posed as Sunni Muslims all their lives in Palestine. They would fast the month of Ramadan, pray the congregational prayers, and were even buries using Muslim ritauls. Please don't give me the baloney about Baha'is not practicing taqiyya. How else do you think 50,000 Baha'is enter university every year including the small minority that are expelled after a few terms when they start proselytizing?

2- That underground university is an ILLEGAL institute. You see now you exposed another Baha'i lie: they claim "total obedience to the rules of the government they live in." yet they have an illegal university! They also wear loose closing that do not conform with the Hijab laws in Iran. Lies everywhere...

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2 hours ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

Bahaism being a false ideology requires no evidence other than its founder claiming to be messenger of Imam Mahdi, then messenger of Allah, and then manifestation of god. Its more surprising that Shias do not understand the falsehood in this. Islam deems anyone claiming to be prophet of Allah after the last messenger to be carrier of false belief.

This is an ideology that seeks to redefine prophet hood, much the same way, the Yemeni cult seeks to redefine imamat. Both must be fought against.

http://bahai-library.com/fananapazir_fazel_finality_islam

Eradication in this context means eventual removal of such ideology through soft means. Limiting their participation in the society is part of it.

You are wrong my friend. The founder was much worse than you claim. When he was imprisoned he would frequently state in the clearest terms that he the imprisoned is Allah:

-[1]«انه لا اله الا انا المسجون الفرید»  «نیست خدایی جز من زندانی تنها»: بهاءالله، آثار قلم اعلی، ج 1، لوح 39

 «لا اله الاّ انا المسجون الغریب الفرید» یعنی: «نیست خدایی جز من زندانی غریب تنها»: بهاءالله، آثار قلم اعلی، ج 3، لوح 230؛

«كذلك امر ربك اذكان مسجوناً فی اخرب البلاد» یعنی: «اینگونه امر كرد پروردگارت، زمانی كه زندانی بود در خراب‌ترین شهرها»: بهاءالله، آثار قلم اعلی، ج 1، لوح

He was a pure Mushrik heretic.

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2 hours ago, Ali6 said:

Debarring Baha'is from attending university is a gross violation of their human rights. I don't understand how you can claim to follow Imam Hussein when he laid his life to fight against oppression. Think about it. The people of Kufa were ordinary folks who ended up murdering their own Imam and yet, despite foresight, Imam Hussein was willing to lay down his life when they asked for help. So regardless of what Baha'is believe, you cannot justify their oppression especially in the name of Islam. 

You didn't even read what Is posted did you? I clearly explained to you that they are not barred from university only a small few are expelled for proselytizing yet here you are repeating the same allegations. The same lies that they spread on the internet.

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2 hours ago, Zendegi said:

I agree. Even among Muslims living in the West, a lot of the times I think to myself Muslims don't have any place in Europe, North America or elsewhere in the Western world with such thinking and attitudes towards others like Ahmadis or Bahais. When they bring up things such as these its turns my mood off.

I don't blame the people of Deutschland , UK and elsewhere for having a dislike of Muslims communities who refuse to integrate and show respect to other groups living amongst them. You will see a lot of these hypocritical people on places like Shiachat with these backward and out-dated views and irony is that they live in places like Germany such as one person in this thread,  where they have all these religious privileges and equal rights yet can't show respect for others and their beliefs.

 

You speak for Baha'is as if you are one yourself. Baha'is are one the most bigoted people out there. The amount of trash that their leaders specially Baha'u'llah threw at those that denied him are unimaginable. Their leadership, the UHJ, is the most tyrannical of them all. You can read the story of Sen McGlinn here:

https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/about/about-dissenrolment/

A poor baha'i academic who was kicked out of the cult without reason by the Baha'i UHJ without explanation, without a trial, and without a chance for defense or repention. They still refuse to tell him why he was expelled. And didn't they ever tell you how they usurped Muslim endowments by the help of the Israeli government? Well read here:

http://www.bahaibahai.com/eng/index.php?id=97

Or they never told you that the ultimate goal of the Baha'is is to take over the world and rule it with an iron fist that would see all dissenters shunned and excommunicated and thrown out of society.

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27 minutes ago, hadez803 said:

You didn't even read what Is posted did you? I clearly explained to you that they are not barred from university only a small few are expelled for proselytizing yet here you are repeating the same allegations. The same lies that they spread on the internet.

I did read your explanation but I think @Zendegi clearly explained the reality of the situation quoted below. Is this a fabrication?

3 hours ago, Zendegi said:

When you apply for University in Iran you have to indicate what religion you belong to prior to admission and you can only choose from Christianity, Islam, Judaism or Zoroastrianism which are 'recognised religions'.There is therefore no option for Bahia students to choose from, according to their scriptures they can't lie about their religion or do something like Taqiya so they have no choice but to not go University.The government doesn't technically bar them from admission but this is a way that prevents Bahais from getting enrolled.

 

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18 minutes ago, Ali6 said:

I did read your explanation but I think @Zendegi clearly explained the reality of the situation quoted below. Is this a fabrication?

 

The fact that there is no slot for Baha'i on the university entrance card is true. But zendegi didn't tell you about the fact that there is slot called "other". Baha'is, atheists, Buddhists, and etc... use the "other" slot. Either that or they simply tick the Muslim box. Yet again zendegi is not stating the truth about Baha'is not practicing Taqqiya. They clearly practice it themselves but when Muslims practice it, they claim Muslims are liars. As I said in another response both their leaders Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha had been practicing taqqiya until they died in Palestine and were even given Muslim burials.

Edited by hadez803

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2 hours ago, hadez803 said:

You speak for Baha'is as if you are one yourself. Baha'is are one the most bigoted people out there. The amount of trash that their leaders specially Baha'u'llah threw at those that denied him are unimaginable.

Why would I not state the truth? As far I know there are only 4 religions to choose from when applying for the University there. If I am wrong forgive me and show me a source where it indicates an other option. Look I am no expert in their beliefs. But again as far as I know within their belief system they have to be honest about being Bahai and can't lie about not being.

All the Bahais I have met are friendly and peace loving people. No I don't hold or have seen any such grudges or hatred against them in real life except on the internet by people like you. Very open and welcoming folks who are just trying to live their lives like everyone else. I went to school with them, I went to their homes, I have been to cultural gatherings and no I have not seen Bahais that I know who are engaged in any suspicious activity or promoting any such a propaganda that you speak off. Their not interested in what Muslims are doing or let anyone putting their noses in anyone else's business.

The Bahais I personally know are not like that. Maybe their are some out there or in past who have engaged in such things which you and others on the 'internet' speak off. No need to generalise all of them and their entire community. What ever happened in the past I really don't care. You can criticise their beliefs and leaders but no need to demonise their whole community. 

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7 hours ago, Zendegi said:

 

Why would I not state the truth? As far I know there are only 4 religions to choose from when applying for the University there. If I am wrong forgive me and show me a source where it indicates an other option. Look I am no expert in their beliefs. But again as far as I know within their belief system they have to be honest about being Bahai and can't lie about not being.


I sat the university entrance exam and have filled the relevant forms and so have my friends and family members. There is a box called "other" under religion. Do you think I still need to provide another source?

They claim they have to be honest about being Baha'i but that is just a claim. There leaders were not and lived a lie to save their own skins while the adherents were prohibited from dissimulating their beliefs and some were consequently killed. The dead were and still are used to this date for playing the victim. This attitude where the leader gets to save their own skin but the followers don't is one of the dirties and scummiest attitudes I have ever witnessed in my life.

And trust me they lie about being honest in their beliefs. See how this die hard Baha'i apologist exposed the fact that they are allowed to lie about their faith and state they are Muslims:

"Did you know, that in this time in which we live, 2014, the Centre of the Covenant, the Universal House of Justice, permits the Baha'is of Saudi Arabia to HIDE (yes HIDE) their religious identity, and if asked by authorities they are permitted to say they are Muslim?" http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=12141654

7 hours ago, Zendegi said:

 

All the Bahais I have met are friendly and peace loving people. No I don't hold or have seen any such grudges or hatred against them in real life except on the internet by people like you. Very open and welcoming folks who are just trying to live their lives like everyone else. I went to school with them, I went to their homes, I have been to cultural gatherings and no I have not seen Bahais that I know who are engaged in any suspicious activity or promoting any such a propaganda that you speak off. Their not interested in what Muslims are doing or let anyone putting their noses in anyone else's business.

The Bahais I personally know are not like that. Maybe their are some out there or in past who have engaged in such things which you and others on the 'internet' speak off. No need to generalise all of them and their entire community. What ever happened in the past I really don't care. You can criticise their beliefs and leaders but no need to demonise their whole community. 

I have met a lot of Baha'is in real life life and on internet forums. I have seen the good the bad and the ugly. Start opposing their beliefs instead of accepting what they spoon feed to you and they will show you their ugly side. Bring up some contradictions and then all hell breaks loose. Trust me you don't want to see it. But you are right about not generalizing things to their entire community. That was not my intention and unfortunately I chose the wrong combination of words in one of statements.

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