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Dragon123

Popular Muslim Convert Explains Why He Left Islam

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this is so easy to answer , the verse is talking about WHOM YOU CAN MARRY 

not WHOM YOU CAN RAPE 

the verse doesnt start "YOU CAN RAPE ................................" it is talking about women you can MARRY 

it truly is amazing how people miss these important details 

they read "...those whom your right hand possesses..." and their imagination goes into full speed they instantly think rape 

it is such a simple fact to see, except those who are blind
 

They wont understand. Not because they don't want to. But because they don't have Ahlulbayt(as) to explain the Quran to them. No wonder he became a Quranist before he left Islam & this is what happens when you take the Quran literally.

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Salam

That is a respectable reason to leave Islam. I can respect that. 

However, this is why, I stated before, one cannot come to Islam because it's morality or beauty appeals to them. Because that is subjective and others might be repulsed by many of the laws in Islam.

The Quran argues by universal arguments and structure that is necessary for society on a theoretical level. It is best in guidance is argumentative in theory level.

And the centres around revelation and Imammate - rejection of the Taghut - and gaining insight and spreading that insight to others and commanding to good and forbidding evil.

Salah, Sawm, etc are appealing things, that have their own place, but the centre of it, revolves around Wilayah. And the center of that revolves around negating the Taghut.

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He quoted 4.24. 

"Save those whom your right hands own" signifies "such married women as shall come in your possession as prisoners of war". Such women, when not taken back on payment of ransom or through negotiation, are lawful as wives, even though their previous marriage has not been formally dissolved, provided the infidel woman becomes a Muslim. This was only permissible for those women that were brought to the battleground with the enemies. For those not wanting harm to their women, should have left them in the safety and security of their cities. Also, preference was given to them being freed by their families including husbands.

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I follow my own religion....and don't claim to have the 100% accurate understanding of the true path of submission to God. It's not that I rather follow my own religion, it's that Imam Mahdi is hidden, and so I won't submit to humans instead of God claiming those humans are the way to God. My goal is however to come to total submission to God as the Islam revealed by Mohammad and guided through his family, reason, and the light he has revealed.

One has to be patient. I myself understand getting frustrated at a problem and I left Islam as a result of not being able to solve problems. I understand the divisions can be confusing and one wants to find the truth and prove it to others.

The key in all this is to be humble. As long we are humble enough to know we can be wrong and keeping fighting to find the truth, we will.

It's when we think there is nothing more to the Quran then we understood or no clear knowledge and proofs out there to the right path that someone has....that confusion becomes the everlasting staying place, and disbelief in knowledge of the book and great name of God becomes rooted in the heart.

If not Quran, there surely is book out there that is majestic, guides to the truth, and admonishes humanity in a eloquent honourable way incapable to that of humans.

There surely is book that will make us realise through reason the way and the path of ascension.

If not Quran, there surely is book out there that is superior in knowledge, and has doors upon doors that open itself and is deeply layered.

Tell him when he finds that book, then he can challenge Quran. Otherwise, to me, Quran stands towering above all.

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this is so easy to answer , the verse is talking about WHOM YOU CAN MARRY 

not WHOM YOU CAN RAPE , RAPE is forbidden FULL STOP no exceptions , Quran says that the rapists is to be STONED TO DEATH 

the verse doesnt start "YOU CAN RAPE ................................" it is talking about women you can MARRY 

it truly is amazing how people miss these important details 

they read "...those whom your right hand possesses..." and their imagination goes into full speed they instantly think rape 

it is such a simple fact to see, except those who are blind

you cant FORCE somebody to marry you, that is not an acceptable marriage , she must say "I DO " of her own consent , not just the CAPTOR says "I DO" and she suddenly belongs to him and he can do with her what he wants 

but SHE must agree and even GET her DOWRY before marriage is even accepted for them, whether it is temporary marriage or full marriage, she must agree and get her dowry that she asks for 

There is so much male privilege talking here, ever hear of coercion?    In a patriarchal society, what  Choice does a woman have realistically, we could think about  Women in villages in the developing world, or women in Victorian/Edwardian times  in the west.  Once married The husband has a right to sexual intercourse, if the wife didn't really want to be married, then she obviously doesn't really want to have sex – which is the definition of rape.     The husband has a right to sexual intercourse, if the wife didn't really want to be married, then she obviously doesn't really want to have sex – which is the definition of rape. 

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The Quran makes clear that, whether free person or not, you can only marry Muslims and people from the book. The Muslims were primarily fighting against polytheists, so its seems reasonable (if not obvious) that the verse would most likely be regarding former polytheist women who became prisoners of war and converted to Islam. In other verses we see that the spouses of those who converted and emigrated are no longer lawful for the Muslim convert. A muslim is forbidden to marry a Mushrik, so presumably upon her conversion her marriage would be void. If she then agree to marry a Muslim there would be nothing in the way to prevent it. There is no way you can read what the Quran says about sexuality and marriage and come to the conclusion that rape is halal. To come to that conclusion you have to project an assumption onto it from the outside, but in doing so you make the next as a whole incongruent/contradictory.

Edited by magma
yukapuka quote removed

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*sigh* 

We don't know what he understands, though we can clearly see some of what he doesn't. Allah is most merciful and perfect in justice. Let Allah be the judge, not us. 

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On 6/27/2016 at 3:30 PM, StrugglingForTheLight said:

I follow my own religion....and don't claim to have the 100% accurate understanding of the true path of submission to God. It's not that I rather follow my own religion, it's that Imam Mahdi is hidden, and so I won't submit to humans instead of God claiming those humans are the way to God. My goal is however to come to total submission to God as the Islam revealed by Mohammad and guided through his family, reason, and the light he has revealed.

One has to be patient. I myself understand getting frustrated at a problem and I left Islam as a result of not being able to solve problems. I understand the divisions can be confusing and one wants to find the truth and prove it to others.

The key in all this is to be humble. As long we are humble enough to know we can be wrong and keeping fighting to find the truth, we will.

It's when we think there is nothing more to the Quran then we understood or no clear knowledge and proofs out there to the right path that someone has....that confusion becomes the everlasting staying place, and disbelief in knowledge of the book and great name of God becomes rooted in the heart.

If not Quran, there surely is book out there that is majestic, guides to the truth, and admonishes humanity in a eloquent honourable way incapable to that of humans.

There surely is book that will make us realise through reason the way and the path of ascension.

This is why we need scholars like Jonathan AC Brown to explain controversial hadiths and ayahs or else these people who are confused with their faith will end up leaving.

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15 minutes ago, Ruq said:

The Quran makes clear that, whether free person or not, you can only marry Muslims and people from the book. The Muslims were primarily fighting against polytheists, so its seems reasonable (if not obvious) that the verse would most likely be regarding former polytheist women who became prisoners of war and converted to Islam. A muslim is forbidden to marry a Mushrik, so presumably upon her conversion her marriage would be void. If she then agree to marry a Muslim there would be nothing in the way to prevent it. There is no way you can read what the Quran says about sexuality and marriage and come to the conclusion that rape is halal. To come to that conclusion you have to project an assumption onto it from the outside, but in doing so you make the next as a whole incongruent/contradictory.

Theres no stoning prescribed in the Quran for anything.

 Where is the contradiction? Consent due to societal pressures is not free choice, and therefore nothing flowing from that is. 

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On 6/27/2016 at 4:00 PM, Ruq said:

The Quran makes clear that, whether free person or not, you can only marry Muslims and people from the book. The Muslims were primarily fighting against polytheists, so its seems reasonable (if not obvious) that the verse would most likely be regarding former polytheist women who became prisoners of war and converted to Islam. In other verses we see that the spouses of those who converted and emigrated are no longer lawful for the Muslim convert. A muslim is forbidden to marry a Mushrik, so presumably upon her conversion her marriage would be void. If she then agree to marry a Muslim there would be nothing in the way to prevent it. There is no way you can read what the Quran says about sexuality and marriage and come to the conclusion that rape is halal. To come to that conclusion you have to project an assumption onto it from the outside, but in doing so you make the next as a whole incongruent/contradictory.

Theres no stoning prescribed in the Quran for anything.

The issue is ASIDE from marriage, is that Muslims are allowed to have sex with their female slaves. That said, people (and I would agree) find it hard that a slave would willingly offer themselves to their Master. There is obviously going to be some resentment over getting captured, etc...

You are right either way, Quran doesn't indicate itself forced sex to slaves are. 

But it seems it was widely understood the slave has no choice but to comply, it's part of the "obedience" owed to the Master.

But you are essentially right you cannot derive that from Quran. I am curious to see what ahadith have to say.

I would presume it would lift the burden of the slave essentially if they had to have sex (ie. it was obligated on slaves to comply to their owners regarding that). They would not feel guilty about it, that they were giving into the Master, but that this is something they had to do.

It seems it is implied implicitly though that this is part of the authority over the slaves because the exception to that obedience has not been made.

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22 minutes ago, Paul Wick said:

 

You have to distinguish what comes from culture and what comes from Islam. Islamically a coerced marriage is not valid. It does happen, but if people actually followed the religion it wouldn't.

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On 6/27/2016 at 4:15 PM, notme said:

You have to distinguish what comes from culture and what comes from Islam. Islamically a coerced marriage is not valid. It does happen, but if people actually followed the religion it wouldn't.

Yayha Snow has issued a response video:

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Please do not post quotes from the comments below the video at youtube. Your own comments are being discussed here. Thanks.

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What is the purpose of spreading a video of a fool sharing his thoughts as a fool about a subject he knows nothing about?

This video serves no purpose what so ever.

I would suggest deleting the thread all together, this is not a platform for apostate to share their foolish minds. There is never a valid or respectable reason for denying Allah(SWT).

Edited by IbnSina

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You have to distinguish what comes from culture and what comes from Islam. Islamically a coerced marriage is not valid. It does happen, but if people actually followed the religion it wouldn't.

I think the crux of what the video is getting at is that a master can dissolve the slave's previous marriage (after an Iddah) and then make them under the "right hands possess" category, negating the need for a marriage. Some have the opinion that marriage contracts dissolve when someone becomes enslaved. I must admit ignorance on the ruling itself but a quick glance at some past shiachat threads shows it's not clear cut. I do think slavery rulings are largely ignored by many modern marja but it does have important consequences with ISIS people running around claiming this is halal and actually practicing it.

So I guess the two fiqhi questions this video brings up (and why I put in Islamic Laws section) are these:

1) Does enslavement entail or give the master the right to dissolve previous marriage contracts?

2) Is consent required for conjugal relations for slaves?

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All - keep in mind the slaves in questions were those women that their husbands/fathers/brothers brought to the war/battle. They were considered part of the war-booty.

This was quite common a custom back then and as such all men bringing their women knew of the risks involved.

We are trying to look at 1,400 years ago through today's lenses.

Edited by shiaman14

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If anyone wants more details about the individual on the video, please see Qa'im's post above. This person doesn't need any publicity here, and his story shouldn't be used as a launching pad to discuss slavery, psychology, or whatever else. His journey and issues are his own. 

Thread locked. 

For a better discussion on why reverts leave Islam, please post on this current thread instead. 

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3 hours ago, notme said:

You have to distinguish what comes from culture and what comes from Islam.

Notice how western culture influences people's interpretation of Islam? We have western muslims whose understanding of Islam is coloured by their western culture. Much has been said about this.

However, you wont hear as often the claim that some scholars of the past were influenced by their own culture. If we can clearly see that scholars of today are influenced, then why not those of the past? Were they inherently less susceptible?

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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Moderators received additional information for this topic from @Ibn al-Hussain 

This was a decent response to the video I felt: 

http://www.lamppostproductions.com/female-war-captives/

Specific YouTube video: 

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