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Why do most reverts leave Islam?

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4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Yet muslims pray with their arms at varying lengths, heights, and postures.   Seems to me you haven't realized that the message Islam gives (essentially in the Qu''ran) does constrain one individuals manifestation of their Lords worship, most especially in prayer.

I would agree, God I think would laugh at how complicated we try to make things for ourselves.  But those people are no different than your attend-church-every day type who never fall to say their rosaries/hail marys, at the Catholic institution. The way I see it, you're still a muslim.  As the Qu'ran would have it. And not by my standards of definition either.

It seems to me Islam does agree with your metaphysical conception. 

As to not praying, it seems you've been misled again.

"What led you into Hell-Fire? They will say; 'We were not of those who prayed;' (The Noble Quran, 74:42-43)"

"So woe to the worshippers who are neglectful of their Prayers, those who (want but) to be seen (of men). (The Noble Quran, 107:4-6)"

I don't see it saying if you don't pray 5 times a day, you're going to hell.  I see, woe to those who don't pray.. as in pray to God at all.

You don't necessarily have to pray the Islamic way as shown to us by the Prophet Muhammad SAW, but if you  pray in your own way, I don't see a problem.  There's also verses in the Qu'ran warning us against blindly following leaders, and not verifying information for ourselves. 

Lot's of people think the verses in the Quran' referring to "Not ascribing partners of God" to mean to believe in just one God; not to be polytheistic.  Yet they've not attempted to extrapolate this verse to what it's actual meaning is it its simple state.  Including following a scholar, imam, priest, blindly as if they're the authority on God.

it seems few do their due diligence in any faith these days.

 

" You don't necessarily have to pray the Islamic way as shown to us by the Prophet Muhammad SAW, but if you  pray in your own way, I don't see a problem.  "

I thought this was an interesting statement.  Thank you for sharing.

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" Picking and choosing based on preconceived notions that impose ones view of God into the faith, are dangerous and as you said , "I know better than you God... "

 

And with that, my response,

"

For example, imagine if I told you that there was a religion in which running was not allowed. You had to walk everywhere. You would say that, it's rediculous and of course isn't truth. 

But what if I said that you were rejecting my religion based on material and physical restrictions? And that you were more concerned about yourself and your own views, than u were about Gods truth.

you would say, no, my pre existing belief in God just doesn't allow me to believe in a law of no running.

"

Choosing faith on pre conceived ideas is inevitable. Unless all you have ever known were ideas of the particular faith itself.

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To all readers: please be sure to note that the beliefs stated by @wmehar2 are not those of mainstream Shia Muslims. While varying beliefs are interesting and valuable to discuss, be sure to check with a trusted source if anything you read seems contradictory or very strange.

Brother wmehar2, thanks for sharing your perspective. I enjoy reading your posts. 

 

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2 hours ago, notme said:

To all readers: please be sure to note that the beliefs stated by @wmehar2 are not those of mainstream Shia Muslims. While varying beliefs are interesting and valuable to discuss, be sure to check with a trusted source if anything you read seems contradictory or very strange.

Brother wmehar2, thanks for sharing your perspective. I enjoy reading your posts. 

 

They aren't my beliefs, they're in the Qu'ran.  I think they ought to be your beliefs too considering how black and white they are in our Holy book.  Naturally I'd assume the Shia' take the Qu'ran to heart.  Am I wrong?  Tell me one thing that I said contradicts mainstream shia' belief?   All I said was that the Christians and Jews prayed differently than our Prophet SAW, as evidenced by his words and what the Qu'ran says that Allah SWT has made our work easier on us, considering how much restriction/requirements he gave to the Jews.  Or are you telling me the meaning to be muslim doesn't mean "to submit one's will to God"?

So allow me to prove it :

Surah Imran [3:113-3:115]

They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer]. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous.  And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous.

Last time I checked,  People of Scripture referred to all those before whom God sent messages to with revelation, which explicitly includes Jews, and Christians among them.  Sounds to me these sincere folk can pray as they learned to pray from their Prophet, and still be right with God.   Do the Shia' deny this verse?  Unfortunately I know Sunni's to not know or deny the meaning of this verse too.  The Qu'ran is my trusted Source

I do appreciate that you enjoy my posts,  @notme  Your responses/posts are particularly engaging as well.  Though your words cut me a bit, I do pride myself on taking an academic approach when I dig and process information.  

.@iCambrian

Edited by wmehar2

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@wmehar2 my intention was not to dispute or disagree. You stated some things that, while true for non-Muslims, might be problematic if a Shia were to follow them. For example, non-Muslims should pray however they pray and God accepts which prayers he accepts. Shia should recite the five daily prayers as a minimum, in the way that is taught by our Shia scholars. 

Since you are a Muslim, albeit following the Sufi path not the Shia, and you seem knowledgeable, I feared that some might take your words for our non-Muslim friend as general guidance for Muslims. 

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1 hour ago, notme said:

@wmehar2 my intention was not to dispute or disagree. You stated some things that, while true for non-Muslims, might be problematic if a Shia were to follow them. For example, non-Muslims should pray however they pray and God accepts which prayers he accepts. Shia should recite the five daily prayers as a minimum, in the way that is taught by our Shia scholars. 

Since you are a Muslim, albeit following the Sufi path not the Shia, and you seem knowledgeable, I feared that some might take your words for our non-Muslim friend as general guidance for Muslims. 

@notme, Problematic for Shia' according to whom, the Qu'ran/God?  You all ought to be more secure in how you follow in regards to the Shia' way, since none of what I'm saying invalidates that at all. 

But far be it from me to give guidance, I'm only giving insight.  As I've told the gentlemen in this thread earlier, I'm not here for Da'wah or helping someone else when I myself am in a deep dark hole hahah.

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imo one of the more common reasons is that they use reason to convert to Islam...and since Islam (nor any other religion) can stand the test of reason they leave..... call them reason-refugees. 

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28 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Sorry....just curious. You folks don't have classes for converts or people thinking of converting? I assumed you did. :confused:

Some mosques do, not all. By the way, most of the classes for converting seem to be sponsored by Salafis these days. I don't see any Shia mosques with classes for converts.  However, most mosques have Arabic and Qur'an classes. 

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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^ Why do you think that is?

You can always spontaneously give your heart to Jesus, but if someone wants to be a Catholic, they have classes for  a year or more before formal reception.

Most Christian denominations have something similar.

As well, Orthodox Jewish conversion process is long and challenging.

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1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

^ Why do you think that is?

You can always spontaneously give your heart to Jesus, but if someone wants to be a Catholic, they have classes for  a year or more before formal reception.

Most Christian denominations have something similar.

As well, Orthodox Jewish conversion process is long and challenging.

 

Jewish conversion is long and challenging because they don't want anyone to get in on their little club. And most people see no appeal in getting in that club unless they are born into it.

 

Approximately ten trillion people say their shahadah for the first time, every day. Who has the resources to teach them all? Salafis with their Saudi funding. That's the real truth.

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^ lol...well, the very few  folks I know who have gone through the Jewish one were marrying into it. ( I don't know if the Reformed, Reconstructionist, or Conservative branches of Judaism have different requirements, but if you wanna go to Israel as a Jew with your honey some day, you need the Orthodox deal far as I know).

Most churches have volunteers do their classes, too. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

You should read some more Baradar-isms, the guy can be a real clown sometimes.  I wonder if he's just as witty in real life. 

No need for insults, nothing good comes out of it.

As far as I know this thread is already discussed and over.

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Again, i understand the hazards of isolation, and being cut away from the community, and how shaytan can play with that. But will Allah azwj ever accept the excuse of a convert who left Islam, because they couldn't click with the iraqi's or the Khoja's in their mosque - who perhaps formed cliques and were rude?

If you converted for the right reason, based on reason, then you have affirmed Islam is true based on proofs.

How a khoja or iraqi treated you may have affected your imaan , your ability to interact and be part of a community, a sort of ummah, to grow spiritually, but it is another level to abandon Islam altogether and claim Muhammed s.a.w as a liar.

Even if you disagree with me , ask yourself - the one who accepts Islam, and then leaves due to Isolation, will Allah azwj accept that of him or her ? Is it possible Allah azwj won't? And if it is possible he won't, does that not mean it is not a valid excuse ? 

I'm not making a fatwah here. I'm only giving what i believe to be a reasonable, non-speculative opinion.

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12 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

No need for insults, nothing good comes out of it.

As far as I know this thread is already discussed and over.

I'm not insulting Baradar Jackson,  far from it.  His posts make me chuckle and they are something that I look forward to on Shiachat. 

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On 7/3/2016 at 7:39 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

You should read some more Baradar-isms, the guy can be a real clown sometimes.  I wonder if he's just as witty in real life. 

 

On 7/3/2016 at 8:11 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I'm not insulting Baradar Jackson,  far from it.  His posts make me chuckle and they are something that I look forward to on Shiachat. 

Baradar says:

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Edited by Martyrdom

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