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In the Name of God بسم الله

Prophet Muhammed (as) was mentioned in OT and NT?

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I was watching Sayed Ammar's recent lectures and he brought up an interesting point about the prophecy of Muhammed in the OT and NT. To our fellow christian members I was wondering if you guys can break down these bible verses to me:

Deuteronomy 18:18

 18I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19

He uses this verse in the bible to show how Moses was actually, by his wording, mentioning the Prophet Muhammed (as) in this verse ( I believe that christians use this to say Moses was actually mentioning Jesus Christ here). What do you guys think?
 

then he uses this verse, the interesting part
 

Luke 7:28

 28I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John, yet even the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

He uses this by saying that-- This was Jesus talking about John the Baptist ( prophet Yahya (as) ) and Jesus explicitly says that there is no greater man then john, however in Matthew 3:11-12, John says 

 11“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12“His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Who is John referring to? The problem is , is that John can't be referring to Jesus because Jesus already confirmed the presence of John with Luke 7:28, and not only that but giving him the greatest compliment, so John could have just used word's like ' Lord' or 'Jesus' or even' Son of Man' or 'Son of God' if he was referring to Jesus, but he kept it at future tense, where Jesus was already present. Who is John referring to here? John seems to revere this man to the point where he uses an analogy of not being able to touch the sandals of this man to show how great his status is.

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Yes, the Deuteronomy passage is considered by Christians to refer to Jesus. I'm sure Jews have a different interpretation.

 

The other passages should be read in context. Yes, John is referring to Jesus and the start of his ministry. Luke starts out pretty dramatically with the birth narratives of both John and his relative Jesus. He keeps drawing connections between them. In Matthew, this is John explaining to the people that he was preparing the way for Jesus. When John is thrown into prison, Jesus affirms that John was the last messenger ( final old covenant prophet) before the Messiah, yet anyone who enters into the new covenant is "greater than John", in a spiritual sense. The Baptism of Fire refers to ,among other things, the coming of the Holy Spirit, attested to in Acts, including the Pentecost event.

If you read the whole story, these things are pretty clear. 

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10 hours ago, Jafar moh said:

I was watching Sayed Ammar's recent lectures and he brought up an interesting point about the prophecy of Muhammed in the OT and NT. To our fellow christian members I was wondering if you guys can break down these bible verses to me:

Deuteronomy 18:18

 18I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19

He uses this verse in the bible to show how Moses was actually, by his wording, mentioning the Prophet Muhammed (as) in this verse ( I believe that christians use this to say Moses was actually mentioning Jesus Christ here). What do you guys think?
 

 

Salam

Imam Rida had a discussion with head of Christians of Iraq and he recited the above verse differently. He used the word brothers instead of countrymen

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
King James Bible

The Imam interpretation is this : Brethren of children of Israel are Children of Ishmael.

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1 hour ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

Salam

Imam Rida had a discussion with head of Christians of Iraq and he recited the above verse differently. He used the word brothers instead of countrymen

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
King James Bible

The Imam interpretation is this : Brethren of children of Israel are Children of Ishmael.

How can brethren of children of Israel be Children of Ishmael??

Deuteronomy was written around 600BC and God was still a God exclusively for the Jews. All other semitic tribes were still polytheists. It makes no sense that Jewish scribes meant that their God would choise a prophet among their enemies.

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8 minutes ago, andres said:

How can brethren of children of Israel be Children of Ishmael??

Deuteronomy was written around 600BC and God was still a God exclusively for the Jews. All other semitic tribes were still polytheists. It makes no sense that Jewish scribes meant that their God would choise a prophet among their enemies.

0.0 woah ?

God is exclusive ? 

LOL , what about Israel father and grand father and grand grand father who were all prophets? And non Jews, because Jews are descendants of Israel...

you can't be serious , right?

 Who was the God of Adam? heck, there is no god but God since ever and He never was exclusive... are you saying that He-God- had to invade the universe to spread his propaganda?

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2 hours ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

0.0 woah ?

God is exclusive ? 

LOL , what about Israel father and grand father and grand grand father who were all prophets? And non Jews, because Jews are descendants of Israel...

you can't be serious , right?

 Who was the God of Adam? heck, there is no god but God since ever and He never was exclusive... are you saying that He-God- had to invade the universe to spread his propaganda?

When Deuteronomy was written, Jews believed there was only one God, Israels God. Arabs and Europeans were polytheists, and would remain so for many centuries.

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6 minutes ago, andres said:

When Deuteronomy was written, Jews believed there was only one God, Israels God. Arabs and Europeans were polytheists, and would remain so for many centuries.

if that verse was authentic or near authentic..ie it came from God, it dose not matter what the conditions at that time were.

Secondly, in islam we believe that there were so many prophets sent to so many people around the globe.. so monotheism was not exclusive to jews

 

moreover, the father of israel is abraham who surely knows God. Abraham had 2 sons , both knew God. Isaac and Ishmael were both promised to be multiplied . from isaac came israel and from ishmael came prophet muhammad.

 

at time of prophet muhammad there were people who followed the abrahamic way, they were monotheistic.

 

so no, unless the verse was written by narrow minded jew, God was and never will be exclusive to a group of people.

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7 hours ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

if that verse was authentic or near authentic..ie it came from God, it dose not matter what the conditions at that time were.

Secondly, in islam we believe that there were so many prophets sent to so many people around the globe.. so monotheism was not exclusive to jews

 

moreover, the father of israel is abraham who surely knows God. Abraham had 2 sons , both knew God. Isaac and Ishmael were both promised to be multiplied . from isaac came israel and from ishmael came prophet muhammad.

 

at time of prophet muhammad there were people who followed the abrahamic way, they were monotheistic.

 

so no, unless the verse was written by narrow minded jew, God was and never will be exclusive to a group of people.

Narrowminded or not. God (Jahve) is according to Judaism Israels God.

When Deuteronomy was written (1200 years before Muhammed), all other semitic tribes to my best knowledge were polytheists. Exept for Judaism, did Muhammed not grow up in a polotheistic society? 

Abraham was Jakobs (Israels) grandfather. Ishmael is descendent of Abraham, not of Israel (Jakob)

 

 

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8 hours ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

Secondly, in islam we believe that there were so many prophets sent to so many people around the globe.. so monotheism was not exclusive to jews.

Which prophets? Which monotheistic religions?

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On 6/16/2016 at 3:24 AM, Jafar moh said:

 

If you look at the context of this verse, you'll see that this is a generic reference to a prophet and not a specific person.  Earlier, God spoke directly to Israel and it scared them, so they said they did not want to speak directly to God anymore and wanted to speak through Moses. God says he'll raise up another like Moses from the Israelites to be God's spokesperson.  This passage is where God establishes the position of prophet.  The next prophet was Joshua.

 

Your NT reference is REALLY a stretch.  You've taken two verses out of context and out of chronology in order to form a vague picture that there may be someone else later.  The Quran says that Muhammad is described in the Torah and Gospel the Jews and Christians had with them.  This description doesn't exist.  The only reference in the NT that even hints something is coming later is in John 14-16 where Jesus talks about the Comforter, but if you look at that description, it's clearly not a human.

 

 

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4 hours ago, DoJustice_LoveMercy said:

 

If you look at the context of this verse, you'll see that this is a generic reference to a prophet and not a specific person.  Earlier, God spoke directly to Israel and it scared them, so they said they did not want to speak directly to God anymore and wanted to speak through Moses. God says he'll raise up another like Moses from the Israelites to be God's spokesperson.  This passage is where God establishes the position of prophet.  The next prophet was Joshua.

 

Your NT reference is REALLY a stretch.  You've taken two verses out of context and out of chronology in order to form a vague picture that there may be someone else later.  The Quran says that Muhammad is described in the Torah and Gospel the Jews and Christians had with them.  This description doesn't exist.  The only reference in the NT that even hints something is coming later is in John 14-16 where Jesus talks about the Comforter, but if you look at that description, it's clearly not a human.

 

 

thanks, -- not really my opinion it was a lecture I was listening to it and it caught my eye so I thought putting it on this forum would help clear it up-- but its true that I should read in context to better understand things.

As for your reference of John 14-16, check out this link http://www.answering-christianity.com/prediction.htm which pertains to what you were talking about. Im wondering if you can clear this up for me as well? It goes into quite alot of depths so it can be time consuming

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Hi Jafar Moh,

 

Quote: Deuteronomy 18:18

18I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

 

Response: --- There is a little more to the context which starts in this verse:

15 "The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,

16 according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’

17 "And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good.

18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.

19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.

 

The cross reference from 16 is to Acts 3:22, but the context is from Peter's message to the Jews, in the Temple:

17 "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.

18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.

23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’

26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

 

Notice the wording of this verse

18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, "and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him."

This speaks of the New Covenant that was announced in Jeremiah 31:

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

 

And a cross reference from Deuteronomy 18 is to John 4:25, that starts here:

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."

26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

 

So this prophecy that God gave through Moses was written before the Israelites crossed over the Jordan under the new leadership of Joshua. It was the last Book written by Moses about 1451 BC.

--- So this was fulfilled in Jesus, the Prophet and Messiah, with the New Covenant, --- and the introduction of the Holy Spirit to indwell believers, so we now must worship God 'in Spirit and in truth,' as we are instructed.

 

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On 6/16/2016 at 1:46 PM, Chaotic Muslem said:

Imam Rida had a discussion with head of Christians of Iraq and he recited the above verse differently. He used the word brothers instead of countrymen

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
King James Bible

The Imam interpretation is this : Brethren of children of Israel are Children of Ishmael.

According to the Bible (Genesis), Abraham had two sons (Isaac and Ishmael) and Isaac also had two sons (Esau and Jacob, also known as Israel). Therefore, speaking of cousins or nearest relatives, the Edomites (descendants of Esau) are the first to come to mind than the Ishmaelites. 

Second and most importantly, by examining the word, "brother", in context, the Torah makes it clear that it is referring to the Israelites in the following verse: 

you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. (Deut. 17:15)

The Israelites comprised of twelve tribes and they are brothers to one another. This is precisely why they have had Israelite kings to rule over them including Saul, David, Ishbosheth, Solomon, etc.

The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen (Deut. 18:15)

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. (Deut. 18:18)

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Hi Jafar Moh,

 

Quote: Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John, yet even the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

He uses this by saying that-- This was Jesus talking about John the Baptist ( prophet Yahya (as) ) and Jesus explicitly says that there is no greater man then john,

 

Response: --- It is not right to say, "No greater man," --- But, "No greater Prophet than John. --- Notice how Jesus introduces him in Luke 7:

24 When the messengers of John had departed, He began to speak to the multitudes concerning John: "What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind?

25 But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft garments? Indeed those who are gorgeously appareled and live in luxury are in kings’ courts.

26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet.

27 This is he of whom it is written:

‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’

28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist;

 

--- Jesus was talking about John the Baptist, who (as Mom said) was the Last OT Prophet.

There are two major prophecies about John, one from some 700 years before Jesus, in Isaiah 40:

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough places smooth;
5 The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, And all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

And it was fulfilled in Luke 3:

4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying:

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough ways smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’"

--- (This is the proof of the accuracy of the Scriptures, --- 'prophecy,' and 'fulfillment.')

 

The second prophecy is from about 400 years before Jesus, in Malechi 3:

1 "Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple,
Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming," Says the Lord of hosts.

 

To understand this, it is the Lord of hosts who is speaking and says:

Behold, I (the Lord of hosts) send My messenger (small 'm' on messenger, meaning John the Baptist), --- and he (John the Baptist) will prepare the way before Me (the Lord of hosts).

And the Lord (the Messiah) whome you (Jews) seek, shall suddenly come to His Temple.

Even the Messenger (Capital M on Messenger meaning Jesus Christ the Messenger) of the (New) covenant, in whom you delight (who will be your delight)

Behold, He is coming (He with the double name, Jesus, meaning Savior, and Christ, meaning Messiah.)

"Says the Lord of hosts."

 

This is really fulfilled in the second scripture:

Matthew 3:11-12, John says

11"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

--- Jesus said 'there was no greater Prophet than John the Baptist,' because he was the transition from the OT to the NT, the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. --- But he was just a man filled with and guided by the Holy Spirit.

--- He said "I baptize you with water for repentance, (the outward witness that they had repented before God), --- but Jesus was indwelt by the Word, and the Holy Spirit, so when He came on the scene after John had been the 'forerunner' for Him, --- He demonstrated the power of God through deliverance and miracles, and for those who truly believed and yielded themselves to God's service, they were 'filled with the Holy Spirit.'

--- This was the event of Acts 2 1-4, and by the end of that day some 3000 were filled with the Holy Spirit. --- as people still are today.

 

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On 6/18/2016 at 1:54 PM, Jafar moh said:

As for your reference of John 14-16, check out this link http://www.answering-christianity.com/prediction.htm which pertains to what you were talking about. Im wondering if you can clear this up for me as well? It goes into quite alot of depths so it can be time consuming

That is a long article!  Rather than address everything it says, let’s look at the description of the Helper in John 14-16 and then you can ask follow-up questions. 

  1. He will live in the followers of Jesus and be with them forever
  2. He is the Spirit of Truth, will guide the followers of Jesus to the truth, and will teach the followers of Jesus
  3. The world cannot receive him or know him because he doesn’t live in them
  4. He will cause the followers of Jesus to remember the words of Jesus
  5. He will be given by the Father and sent by Jesus
  6. He will testify about Jesus and prompt Jesus’s followers to testify of him too
  7. He will convict the world concerning sin because the world does not believe in Jesus
  8. He will glorify Jesus

I can see how some of these can be associated with Muhammad.  For example, Muhammad did speak of Jesus and spoke against sin, but Muhammad wasn’t born for another 600 years.  Jesus tells his disciples in John 14 that he will not leave them as orphans, but send help.  If Muhammad was this Helper, the disciples would have been left as orphans without guidance.  Let’s look at what else must be true in order for it to be Muhammad.  Let’s insert Muhammad’s name into the description and see if it fits.

  1. Muhammad will live in Jesus’s followers, be with them forever, and remind them of Jesus’s message – Muhammad died and was not with the followers of Jesus forever.  He doesn’t live inside of anyone. 
  2. Muhammad will guide the followers of Jesus and will teach them – Muhammad wasn’t born yet and could not guide the followers of Jesus for another 600 years.  By then, Christianity had spread throughout the Middle East, Africa, and Europe.
  3. Muhammad will cause the followers of Jesus to remember Jesus’s words – Jesus’s words in the Quran is an argument against Christian beliefs more than actual teachings.  Muslims say his teachings are corrupted and do not know which sayings are from Jesus and which are not.
  4. The Father gave Muhammad – The Quran scolds Christians for calling God a loving Father.
  5. Jesus sent Muhammad – Muhammad never said this.
  6. Muhammad will glorify Jesus – Muhammad called this shirk and scolded Christians for elevating Jesus beyond the limits.

 

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Hi Jafar Moh,

 

There is more about John the Baptist which is interesting. --- He was born to elderly parents who simply believed the promises of God, as it says in Surah 21:

89 And Zachariah, when he cried unto his Lord: My Lord! Leave me not childless, though Thou art the Best of inheritors.

90 Then We heard his prayer, and bestowed upon him John, and adjusted his wife (to bear a child) for him. Lo! they used to vie one with the other in good deeds, and they cried unto Us in longing and in fear, and were submissive unto Us.

Again in Surah 3:38-40. --- and in Surah 19:2-9, and the original account in Luke 1:

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both well advanced in years.

8 So it was, that while he was serving as priest before God in the order of his division,

9 according to the custom of the priesthood, his lot fell to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.

10 And the whole multitude of the people was praying outside at the hour of incense.

11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

13 But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.

14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth.

15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.

17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

18 And Zacharias said to the angel, "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years."

19 And the angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings.

 

Part of this was prophesied some 400 years before, in Malachi 4:

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6 And he will turn The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,

 

--- Notice this in verses 15-17:

15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, he will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.

17 He will also go before Him (Jesus) in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

 

Jesus said, 'there was no greater prophet than John.' --- He didn't say there weren't others as great as John, --- but John was a special Prophet because he was 'filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb.' --- He came in the 'spirit and power of Elijah.' --- And he turned 'the hearts of the fathers to their children' in the revival that 'prepared the way' for the ministry of Jesus, --- as it says in Matthew 3:

1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,

2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.’" (Isaiah 40:3)

4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.

5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him

6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

--- So this fulfilled the mission, --- but did it fulfill the prophecy that Elijah would come again?

--- (Because fulfilled prophecy is proof of the accuracy of Scripture.)

 

The disciples asked Jesus this question, because the Scribes of the Pharisees, were keen on prophecy and fulfillment, but had rejected John. --- It says in Matthw 17:

10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.

12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands."

13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

 

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