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In the Name of God بسم الله
Muhammed Ali

Dr Sekaleshfar lecture on homosexuality in media

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Fornicators are born with natural attractiveness to women

wine drinkers and addicts are born with tendency of addiction

killers are born with anger and impulsivity

 

but gays are not born to get pregnant, as any naturally occurring reproductive system

gays digestive system inner linening isn't prepared for it. Tearing of the inner linening result in an immediate transmission of HIV.

The force used in the act isn't proportional with the structure of digestive system.

violence , prostitution, a plethora of psychiatric problems is associated with it. They attribute them to discrimination, but the stats are not improving despite the wide acceptance of gay.

 

loads of things occurs naturally, it dose not mean they require no discipline.

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7 minutes ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

Fornicators are born with natural attractiveness to women

wine drinkers and addicts are born with tendency of addiction

killers are born with anger and impulsivity

 

but gays are not born to get pregnant, as any naturally occurring reproductive system

gays digestive system inner linening isn't prepared for it. Tearing of the inner linening result in an immediate transmission of HIV.

The force used in the act isn't proportional with the structure of digestive system.

violence , prostitution, a plethora of psychiatric problems is associated with it. They attribute them to discrimination, but the stats are not improving despite the wide acceptance of gay.

 

loads of things occurs naturally, it dose not mean they require no discipline.

I would challenge you assumption that people are " born" with some of those things. Others are possible.

heterosexuals get HIV, so did people with blood transfusions and no sexual acts involved

Whatever violence, prostitution, etc might be found in the gay community, these are the acts of heterosexuals as well. I don't think it has anything to do with orientation.

There seems to be a problem with gay people in here that " discipline" does not cure. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

Fornicators are born with natural attractiveness to women

wine drinkers and addicts are born with tendency of addiction

killers are born with anger and impulsivity

 

but gays are not born to get pregnant, as any naturally occurring reproductive system

gays digestive system inner linening isn't prepared for it. Tearing of the inner linening result in an immediate transmission of HIV.

The force used in the act isn't proportional with the structure of digestive system.

violence , prostitution, a plethora of psychiatric problems is associated with it. They attribute them to discrimination, but the stats are not improving despite the wide acceptance of gay.

 

loads of things occurs naturally, it dose not mean they require no discipline.

First of all, I am amazed to say thks for the second or third time in this forum, but HIV doesn't come into existence when a man penetrates another man. It is not created from scratch.

Also, we all know sex is not solely to get pregnant. Saying this in this time and age is cynical.

Problems associated wirh homosexuality are rather social problems, but they are in many ways real. Repression in this heteropatriarchal society causes a lot of people psychological problems that they may not be able to overcome. Nothing one should be criticizing to be honest, because none of us is in a high position to start criticizing others.

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9 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

I would challenge you assumption that people are " born" with some of those things. Others are possible.

heterosexuals get HIV, so did people with blood transfusions and no sexual acts involved

Whatever violence, prostitution, etc might be found in the gay community, these are the acts of heterosexuals as well. I don't think it has anything to do with orientation.

There seems to be a problem with gay people in here that " discipline" does not cure. 

 

XD

Challenge me not!

Go challenge the health authority of your country and their stats 

CDC warns gay men of ‘epidemic’ HIV rates

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It is easier transmitted through anal sex (no matter the gender) and in the gay scene (bars pubs etc) people have sex non stop and frequently without proper protection.

I don't know what point you want to prove with this, but be rigurous please. It is not the ideas you share what annoy me but the lack of objectivity and knowledge in this matter.

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@Ibn al-Hussain unfortunately, I have to leave, but I think you have accurately described some issues with this regarding the politics. One of my relatives on the InterNet opined that this tragedy was being used as an excuse for far more Muslim-bashing than solidarity with the LGBTQ community. And we're in the US, not Australia.

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31 minutes ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

XD

Challenge me not!

Go challenge the health authority of your country and their stats 

CDC warns gay men of ‘epidemic’ HIV rates

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/epidemic-1-2-of-gay-men-will-have-hiv-by-age-50-if-current-rates-continue-w

 

 

Since HIV infection rates are dropping and the people  most affected are also described by words such as " young" " black" and " Hispanic", there are likely other factors involved as to why they are more affected... other than being gay. I suspect as some of these groups have access to better medical care we will see a decline in them as well. Those demographics are more vulnerable to other diseases as well,especially if they are low-income in a country without a universal healthcare system. 

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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prejudices , prejudices

White MSM are more likely to contract HIV than other races in the USA

 

msm-graph-800x325.png

 

 

Other factors related to High Risk behaviours that may lead to HIV 

croi_lifetime_risk_transmission_group.jp

 

By time, numbers are INCREASING. This graph shows the NEW cases in 2008 , compared to the NEW cases discovered in 2010

 

incidence-fact-sheet-figure3.jpg

 

These are CDC figures by the way.

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8 minutes ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

prejudices , prejudices

White MSM are more likely to contract HIV than other races in the USA

 

msm-graph-800x325.png

 

 

Other factors related to High Risk behaviours that may lead to HIV 

croi_lifetime_risk_transmission_group.jp

 

By time, numbers are INCREASING. This graph shows the NEW cases in 2008 , compared to the NEW cases discovered in 2010

 

incidence-fact-sheet-figure3.jpg

 

These are CDC figures by the way.

My quotes re: young, black, and Hispanic new infections are from the CDC article that YOUR article linked to. You should read it. 

My quotes concerning the dropping rates of HIV are from current publications, not those from six years ago.

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51 minutes ago, Bakir said:

First of all, I am amazed to say thks for the second or third time in this forum, but HIV doesn't come into existence when a man penetrates another man. It is not created from scratch.

Also, we all know sex is not solely to get pregnant. Saying this in this time and age is cynical.

Problems associated wirh homosexuality are rather social problems, but they are in many ways real. Repression in this heteropatriarchal society causes a lot of people psychological problems that they may not be able to overcome. Nothing one should be criticizing to be honest, because none of us is in a high position to start criticizing others.

Biologically speaking, the reproductive tract is to reproduce. One can flirt with his eyes but the main purpose of eye is to see not to flirt. 

Evolutionary speaking, animals evolve in a way that ensures better fitting. If the change lead to drop in reproduction, it is considered weakness of that animal and way to its extinction..

Biologically speaking that is. Facts not whims.

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20 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

My quotes re: young, black, and Hispanic new infections are from the CDC article that YOUR article linked to. You should read it. 

My quotes concerning the dropping rates of HIV are from current publications, not those from six years ago.

cdc statement in 2015

CDC estimates that 1,218,400 persons aged 13 years and older are living with HIV infection, including 156,300 (12.8%) who are unaware of their infection. Over the past decade, the number of people living with HIV has increased, while the annual number of new HIV infections has remained relatively stable. Still, the pace of new infections continues at far too high a level—particularly among certain groups.

No dropping of rates and as you said, my link is outdated.

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2 hours ago, baradar_jackson said:

And now that we on the topic of the medical field, isn't it interesting that in the US, the medical establishment considered homosexuality a mental illness and they did not change their official position until the 1990s? I don't know what happened in the 1990s to make them change that but I am pretty darn sure it wasn't a medical breakthrough.

I think it is pretty much there still

WHO%20lgbt%20related%20disorders.png?ito

http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2014/en#/F66.1

 

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On 6/13/2016 at 3:07 PM, Ruq said:

I dont believe that to be true, and in the least it is certainly a debatable issue. As Muslims we should be extremely cautious when it comes to potentially causing injustice and oppression. There is no death penalty for a sexual act in the Quran, yet it deals with the subject adultery and homosexuality. This fact alone should make people very cautious about claiming that such a punishment is intrinsically Islamic.

 

I think he is just trolling.  

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:salam:

@LeftCoastMom I am not here to convince you of the correctness of our belief on this specific matter. We have completely different world views, different epistemologies, different foundations upon which we live our life on. I am only here to help you understand what the Islamic view on this issue is, not necessarily convince you that it is the truth. With that being said, just wanted to respond to some of your remarks:

Quote

Considering that he stated that birth defects could be caused by the sins of your ancestors, misunderstood the politics surrounding the thalidomide controversy ( it's the MOTHER'S fault! Well, so was autism until,like homosexuality being a psychosis, it didn't stand up to scientific scrutiny), and several other statements, he is well outside of science. 

We believe in a meta-physical reality. Just like certain physical actions can cause certain defects and harm to a child, so can certain actions whose results are not immediately seen, or we have not been able to pin-point them physically yet. A good example for this is prayers & supplications, and specifically prayers ordained for rain. Rain is a physical phenomenon that has been explained away by science, to the extent that it can even be foretold weeks in advance. With that being said, we believe that the prayers for rain - with its correct conditions - can play a role in rain-fall. Likewise, certain sins can also play a role in causing certain defects, albeit with the help of certain physical elements (which we may or may not be aware of). Once again, I don't need to actually prove this to you, because all the evidence relies on various different preliminaries that we both disagree on.

For example, in our theology we have a view that the ancestors of the Prophet(s) have to have been monotheists. You may ask, what difference does it make if the parents of the Prophet (s) were unbelievers? Suggesting that the Prophet's parents or ancestors were not monotheists (as believers of the other sects believe), can result in a lot of implications that simply go against one's intellect. So because we prove elsewhere through the intellect that the Prophet (s) can not take on certain qualities - physical or spiritual, thus such a view is absurd and has to be incorrect (because the human intellect is the standard and measure for discerning right & wrong in this case, and historical reports that go against a certain intellectual principle are given no value). Likewise, some extend this view further and reach the conclusion that there is no way Khadija (s) the wife of the Prophet could have had previous marriages and children from those previous marriages (even though historical reports exist for this). Whether this is right or wrong is a debate that Shi'is can have amongst themselves or with the Sunnis, but my point is that these issues all pertain to a meta-physical reality which we believe has a direct connection with the physical reality.

Dr. Farrokh specifically, as I mentioned before, has dedicated a lot of time studying the mystical sciences and his themes usually revolve around Islamic mysticism & gnosis. While all Muslims scholars believe in a meta-physical reality, those who are into these sciences are more capable of explaining and justifying such a relationship (between the material and non-material world). For example he has given an excellent series of lectures on the role of the soul and what happens when a part of someone else's body (like an arm, eye or leg) gets transplanted to another person - what happens to the soul of the person whose body-part was transplanted. But again, even as a Shi'a, you would need to accept a lot of preliminaries before you could even agree, or be able to accept or reject the specific justifications & explanations of the Shaykh in these matters.

Quote

His reason for punishing them included that it " killed the souls" of other people. What is your definition of that? Why punish them at all? ( Granted, it is not the custom in current western society ...or most others...for anyone to have sex in public, heterosexually or otherwise) but aside from that what would be the reason? If knowing that homosexual acts ( how about just two men holding hands?) exist by witness thereof could cause people to, say, doubt God or become confused....Couldn't seeing a person with an impairment cause someone to harbor the same thoughts? Would the impaired person incur punishment for that? Neither can help the way they are.

In many Eastern cultures, those few that have not yet been invaded and destroyed by modern and post-modern thought, two men holding hands taking a stroll in the park, or kissing each other on the face, forehead or hands, are not seen as "homosexual acts". Such display of brotherhood and affection are common. A homosexual act that is punishable with death - with its conditions - is essentially anal-sex. That is really it. So viewing another person of the same gender with lust is punishable - even though it is a sin.

When such an act has been established as a sin, and because we believe that sins have a detrimental effect on the souls of the individuals and as well as a negative effect on a society at large, it is fair to say that homosexuality damages a society, physically and spiritually. It so happens that certain sins violating chastity (adultery, homosexuality - re: anal sex), have been legislated with a death penalty. Islam see's the issue of chastity as a big deal, big enough of a deal to decree a death penalty for violating it. Once again, we can argue whether it is such a big deal or not to warrant a death penalty, but we will not reach a conclusion because we are bound by two different understandings of the world. Yes there are certain jurists who may have also said that there is no death penalty for such an act, but believe me, them saying that has nothing to do with them being politically or morally correct in a certain society. It all comes down to whether they were able to establish proof for such a punishment or not through a methodology that they deem to be most appropriate and correct. 

That being said, even if we agree that gays are "born gay" biologically speaking (there is really no conclusive scientific evidence for this), it doesn't necessarily translate into the right to commit homosexual acts (i.e. acts that involve lust, having oral sex, anal-intercourse etc.). Just because people (straight or not) are supposedly born with sexual urges, doesn't give them the right to, for example masturbate or commit fornication, "just because they are born that way". A person who is born gay (if we accept such a thing), doesn't mean they are committing a sin. As a matter of fact, even if we say they are not born gay, but later in life decide to associate themselves as "homosexual", still to this point they have not committed any sin. Committing a sin is a physical action, being born gay or associating yourself to a sexual orientation is a state of being. Yes this state of being can translate into certain physical actions, but gays, like all humans have free-will. They have the ability to control their urges and not act on their urges. Just like straight-individuals are expected to control their urges and not violate the boundaries which have been set by law.

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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