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BREAKING: MASS SHOOTING IN ORLANDO GAY NIGHTLUB

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45 minutes ago, Wahdat said:

Isn't calling the opposing side non-Muslims in itself a takfeer...something takfeeris do?

Exactly. We are all in this boat together. People need to accept that at times, our understanding of our personal faith can be quite subjective. Tagging others as non believers, thugs, mercenaries etc., I think is missing the point of the existent subjectivity. They pray, they fast, they believe. There's not much more to it, no matter how much we disagree with their interpretations. By flagging them as non believers, we are falsely elevating ourselves over them, standing upon our own opinions and beliefs.

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19 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

Exactly. We are all in this boat together. People need to accept that at times, our understanding of our personal faith can be quite subjective. Tagging others as non believers, thugs, mercenaries etc., I think is missing the point of the existent subjectivity. They pray, they fast, they believe. There's not much more to it, no matter how much we disagree with their interpretations. By flagging them as non believers, we are falsely elevating ourselves over them, standing upon our own opinions and beliefs.

Its very much like getting a terrible and infectious wound on our arm and instead of admitting that we have a problem and go to the doctor we claim that 'oh this hand is not mine. it could not be mine. because my doctor said that i was healthy last year and i have never had this wound since my birth or any other part of my body which is fairly healthy...my hand simply does not represent my body' but that rarely happens because as nietzche said 'madness is rare in individuals but in groups, parties, and ages its the rule.' 

Edited by Wahdat

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3 hours ago, Wahdat said:

Its very much like getting a terrible and infectious wound on our arm and instead of admitting that we have a problem and go to the doctor we claim that 'oh this hand is not mine. it could not be mine. because my doctor said that i was healthy last year and i have never had this wound since my birth or any other part of my body which is fairly healthy...my hand simply does not represent my body' but that rarely happens because as nietzche said 'madness is rare in individuals but in groups, parties, and ages its the rule.' 

Though we have to remember that in some cases the doctor cuts the arm off as it in functional terms isn't an arm anymore due to the degree of infection. Now how that arm got infected is more important in my opinion than the fact that it is infected.

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4 hours ago, repenter said:

Though we have to remember that in some cases the doctor cuts the arm off as it in functional terms isn't an arm anymore due to the degree of infection. Now how that arm got infected is more important in my opinion than the fact that it is infected.

how it got infected or why it got infected while significant are less important than acknowledgement of the fact that it is infected....everything else comes after this. If the sick person denies that there is anything wrong with their arm, they are less likely to go and seek medical help. Because healthy folks rarely seek a doctor's help....and the infection will slowly spread all over their body. Since we are speaking in metaphors, the day Sunnis as a whole disown these terrorists is the day the arm could be seen as amputated and separate from the body. Until then, our takfeer on them is as credible/effective as their takfeer on us.

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On 6/22/2016 at 10:42 AM, Wahdat said:

lol...and despite all that you still are not sure the purpose of the halfbaked falseflag.

I say someone with a mental problem went nuts and shot people...and you bring in thte people who you do not even know yourself and because of the things that you are not sure as responsible party...who sounds insane here?

ps: syrian chemical issue was a wahabi-turkish falseflag...nusra and co are not...they are muslim terrorists...

but all that is irrelevant....its US and Israel...sunnis are wonderful people..i know cuz my butcher is one. :D

You're free to live in your delusion. If I sound "insane" (I see how the skeptical and scientific approach is now tantamount to insanity these days) for calling out BS on the official narrative for the ABSOLUTE LACK of evidence tying Mateen to this shooting in any way, shape or form, then I gladly accept it. I'm not gonna swallow the garbage like you so gladly do.

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lol...and despite all that you still are not sure the purpose of the halfbaked falseflag.

I shared with you the possible motives and purpose behind the attack. Not my fault you're having such a severe reading and comprehension issue. If you think this was half-baked, look into the Sandy Hoax. It's likely that the psy-op coordinators don't put so much effort into these events because of gullible fools like you, who will accept what the well-known deceptive mainstream media reports as fact. 

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but all that is irrelevant....its US and Israel...sunnis are wonderful people..i know cuz my butcher is one. 

Shame on you for assuming I hold Sunnis in such high regards. I personally know some Shia families in my hometown of Karachi who have had loved ones fallen victim and martyred at the hands of filth like the Tehreek-e-Taliban and Sipah-e-Sahaba. But I have a duty as an aspiring Shia of Imam Ali (AS) to pursue truth, and to expose anyone and everyone who brings harm to innocent lives, so I will not let my emotions cloud my judgment and just straight exclaim, "Oh ya gotta be dem stupid Sunnis at it again." I will use the my scientific and skeptical approach for whatever comes next.

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I say someone with a mental problem went nuts and shot people...and you bring in thte people who you do not even know yourself and because of the things that you are not sure as responsible party...who sounds insane here?

What the hell are you on about here? I merely shared my suspicions. You on the other hand have nothing but the word of the media to fall back on. Remember what I said? 

On 6/22/2016 at 1:34 AM, Praetorius said:

So the only thing you can possibly rely on is the word of the mainstream mass media, which has a consistent and repetitive pattern of lying to sway public opinion and stifle critical thinking.

Anyone can see through this fake, staged event if they examine the evidence, or lack thereof.

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The moon landing was also staged, yet that never meant it didn't happen, but that they couldn't really film it.

Thus saying there has never been a massacre it's not a fact per se, but a valid conclusion you most likely can defend.

I don't think this event, were it real, changes anything or sends a brutal message. In the US we hear such events from time to time. Hate crimes against LGBT aren't a new thing in the world, yet when it is someone with an "islamic" background, it is as if it was a new thing. Very few decades ago the US government would have let all gays die to AIDS if it was possible for them.

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Hello,

I get so tired of the hate that is exhibited in this chat room at times.  It seems as long as you are bashing the West, or the United States, or Europe etc. evidence is irrelevant and what is said is to be accepted without question.

31 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I don't think this event, were it real, changes anything or sends a brutal message. In the US we hear such events from time to time. Hate crimes against LGBT aren't a new thing in the world, yet when it is someone with an "islamic" background, it is as if it was a new thing. Very few decades ago the US government would have let all gays die to AIDS if it was possible for them.

What evidence do you have?  What is your purpose for saying such things?

http://www.amfar.org/thirty-years-of-hiv/aids-snapshots-of-an-epidemic/

There are plenty of things about the US Government to complain about, question and debate.  But, to make a statement such as this just shows your ignorance.  The US Government has been on the forefront of AIDS research and funding and finding a cure.

I hope someday you can visit us and see we are not monsters as you have been taught.

All the Best,

David

 

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41 minutes ago, David66 said:

Hello,

I get so tired of the hate that is exhibited in this chat room at times.  It seems as long as you are bashing the West, or the United States, or Europe etc. evidence is irrelevant and what is said is to be accepted without question.

What evidence do you have?  What is your purpose for saying such things?

http://www.amfar.org/thirty-years-of-hiv/aids-snapshots-of-an-epidemic/

There are plenty of things about the US Government to complain about, question and debate.  But, to make a statement such as this just shows your ignorance.  The US Government has been on the forefront of AIDS research and funding and finding a cure.

I hope someday you can visit us and see we are not monsters as you have been taught.

All the Best,

David

 

Then leave, if our opinion of the United States bothers you, why subject yourself to this  but you won't really, because doesn't bother you as you claim. I grew up in the United States and my parents were both in the Air Force and let me tell you, Bakir is right. There was a time in our history as a nation that the US government did consider uncomfortable options such as letting homosexuals die of AIDS. However,  ultimately searching for a cure won out. If I am not mistaken, this was during the 70's/80's when AIDS was still relatively unknown to the public.

You know very well that the US has done some dark things in the past and insinuate otherwise is nothing short of lying. The grass is truly not any greener on the other side. 

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^ Hello,

Your responses to my post are always just platitudes.

Please drop the "holier than thou" persona and respond with interesting, thought provoking, well sourced arguments.

13 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Then leave, if our opinion of the United States bothers you, why subject yourself to this  but you won't really, because doesn't bother you as you claim. I grew up in the United States and my parents were both in the Air Force and let me tell you, Bakir is right. There was a time in our history as a nation that the US government did consider uncomfortable options such as letting homosexuals die of AIDS. However,  ultimately searching for a cure won out. If I am not mistaken, this was during the 70's/80's when AIDS was still relatively unknown to the public.

You know very well that the US has done some dark things in the past and insinuate otherwise is nothing short of lying. The grass is truly not any greener on the other side. 

Please support this statement. 

All the Best,

David

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39 minutes ago, David66 said:

^ Hello,

I gave you a link that answers your question.  Who do you think funds the CDC, Center for Disease Control?

Please provide evidence of your statement.

Thanks,

David

First of all, I would like you to calm down a bit. It's easy to forget and only talk about the good things David. I asked those questions because I wanted you to realize there is a reason that is not "social justice" or "sympathy" towards gay men.

AIDS was seen as the "gay cancer", and government organizations preferred not to take action when it was most needed or get involved in research and funding. You want me to believe the 80s were not dominated by a conservative discourse? AIDS was openly considered God's retribution for homosexuality. Politically speaking, it was as harmful to openly support or recognize homosexuals back in the time as it is now to speak against them (God bless propaganda!).

To give you an extreme case of such scenario, see Ed Koch, a CLOSETED gay who gave no example at all in the AIDS crisis. A closeted gay. In the words of Thomas Duane, former US gay senator:

Quote

“Did Koch do enough for AIDS?” the former state senator Tom Duane, who is H.I.V.-positive, asked when I phoned him, “No. Did anyone do enough? No. Are we doing enough now? No.”

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/nyregion/judging-mayor-kochs-aids-record-without-the-whispers.html?_r=1

If social justice had any meaning, a closeted gay wouldn't show the pasiveness of Ed Koch to defend his political position and image. And he's just an example, maybe attention-calling due to its apparent incoherente, but things must be contextualized.

The research and funding we have got today (which are still not enough by the way) are not a consequence of good will and sympathy, but activism, real pressure, and the fact it was not actually a gay cancer, but a disease that can reach any of us without even indulging in risky sexual activities. Without that, you want me to acknowledge that the government would care about homosexual men? Heh, I am not that naive, not sure about you.

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59 minutes ago, David66 said:

^ Hello,

Your responses to my post are always just platitudes.

Please drop the "holier than thou" persona and respond with interesting, thought provoking, well sourced arguments.

Please support this statement. 

All the Best,

David

"Holier-than-thou" persona, eh? Like you are one to talk, I am nothing like that. At least, and I am not saying this to be pompous and arrogant, I don't enter arguments and post for the sake of creating drama and embarrassing yourself when somebody calls you out on things  that aren't necessarily true.

Like Bakir and my health teacher in high school once said, the epidemic was a case of "too little, too late" and the conservative attitude  didn't help as they narrow-mindedly assumed that AIDS was just a "gay cancer".

I'll find the evidence for you.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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5 hours ago, David66 said:

Hello,

I get so tired of the hate that is exhibited in this chat room at times.  It seems as long as you are bashing the West, or the United States, or Europe etc. evidence is irrelevant and what is said is to be accepted without question.

Hello,

What you call hate is just our opinion about US and the west based on solid evidence. No one is forcing you to accept our view. You are free to have your own views.

Just the views and opinions expressed in this chatroom have made you tired. What about your government's torture and aggression throughout the history? Shouldn't we get tired of that? 

I am among those who have suffered because of the policies of US government.

You invaded Afghanistan to get Osama bin laden and destroy Al Qaeda and Taliban, but was Osama ever found there? 

As far as I know Taliban and AQ still exist. Then why did you invade?

US and UK invaded Iraq because they believed that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. The whole world knows the fact that those so called weapons of mass destruction were never found. Then why did you invade?

Your government's policy of interfering in other states has only brought destruction and instability in that state. I can give you many examples.

You invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria and the whole world is witnessing the condition of these countries today. I don't need to say anything about it.

Which of the facts I have given above are wrong? 

Why shouldn't we be bashing the US and the west when they have hurt the sentiments of the Muslim world so much. 

You can never understand because you have never suffered because of the policies of your government.

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Injustice is not a matter of frontiers. I was talking about the US because the topic was Orlando. And because rebellion, suffering, injustice and activism shall be remembered and recognized. Were I to talk about my country, I will never forget the lives of people such as Federico Garcia Lorca (may the soul of such a great human being rest in peace).

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7 hours ago, starlight said:

It's almost like they wave these oddities and irregularities in our face from time to time, like they're making fun of us... Sigh.

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On 6/13/2016 at 1:16 AM, eThErEaL said:

The only change we should expect is from our own souls.  Because everything is already perfect, any imperfection we see is because of a spiritual myopia we have from within ourselves.

The world situation is not perfect, it is getting worse and worse. Can you explain the idea to me ? Or share some literature 

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On 3/26/2018 at 2:40 PM, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

The world situation is not perfect, it is getting worse and worse. Can you explain the idea to me ? Or share some literature 

Well, God’s creation is truly perfect or else he wouldn’t have allowed it to exist.  

What did Seyyeda Zainab (as) reply when asked about her brother (as) death?  I saw nothing but Beauty.

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 3/26/2018 at 2:40 PM, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

The world situation is not perfect, it is getting worse and worse. Can you explain the idea to me ? Or share some literature 

It is both perfect and imperfect.  But one should know why or in what sense it is perfect and why or in what sense it is imperfect.  

If it is said that the world is perfect (for example when it is said that amidst the massacre and brutal killings “I saw nothing but Beauty”), it is because the being of the creation is through God’s Being.  So long as a thing exists, it exists through, by, with, or in God’s Being.  And so there is only One Being (which is 100% Beautiful and 100% Perfect) appearing or showing Itself through a multiplicity of “forms” or “beings”.  This is the vision of tawhid.

If it said that the creation is imperfect it should only mean that it is imperfect because only a God alone is perfect.  There is nothing perfect except God.

So the creation of God is at once perfect and imperfect.  Another name for this is “relativity”.  The creation is relatively perfect or relatively imperfect.  

It is just like the reflection(s) of objects found in a mirror which can be said to be at once the mirror and not the mirror.  

The reflections are the mirror in the sense that nothing but the substance of the mirror is showing (the refected objects in the mirror do not come “in the way” or “prevent” the substance of the mirror from being what it is or from appearing).  And it can be said that the reflected objects are also not the mirror because the objects are not the substance of the mirror itself (each and every object can be replaced without trace but the substance of the mirror will remain the same always and forever.  There are Quranic verses which say that everything is perishing save the Face of your Lord. Elsewhere the Quran also says that wherever you turn, there is the Face of God.  The Face of your Lord is the ever-present, all-encompassing substance of the mirror which is everywhere but nowhere.  There is no place it is not and yet it is not in any particular place.  It is free of all forms that appear through, in and by It.  One could very well ask: What isn’t this Substance since everywhere I look the Mirror is 100% fully present or 100% fully there.  The entire existence is nothing but an infinitely vast Mirror whom we call God, we just get blinded by all the different created forms that become manifest in the Mirror, by the Mirror and through the Mirror.  We falsely believe that each reflected object of God creation is independent and exists by itself.  But the reality is that each entity, each form is empty because it is full of nothing but the Divine Substance.

Edited by eThErEaL
The

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Information released 2 years later:  Thursday, 29March 2018 radio program.

Contrary to the media narratives about this shooting being an anti-gay hate crime, the prosecutor has released the time line of events.

The shooters original target was Disney. When he got there, he pushed a baby carriage around with his weapons in it. Deciding there was a lot of armed security, he left.

He gets into his car an on his for searches for night clubs, The first one that comes up is "Eves". He downloads GPS directions. Gets to Eves looks around (is on security footage) and then leaves. Goes to the next search and finds Pulse, again down loading GPS directions. Gets to Pulse and then leaves. GPS' Eves again and starts driving and after going halfway, turns around and goes back to Pulse. Then the massacre.

Pulse was 3rd on his target list.

@David66  a press link: 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pulse-orlando-nightclub-shooting/os-omar-mateen-cell-records-night-of-pulse-shooting-20180305-story.html 

Edited by hasanhh
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