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BREAKING: MASS SHOOTING IN ORLANDO GAY NIGHTLUB

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3 hours ago, David66 said:

Hello,

Here is an example of the United States government calling a non-Muslim a terrorist.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/history/famous-cases/oklahoma-city-bombing

And, if you look on the right of the web page you will see links to other non-Muslim violent acts categorized as terrorism.

All the Best,

David

Hello there, ain't you that USAF guy?

Well.. I'll start believing that your government treats all criminals equally the day they call war criminals like George Bush, Tony Blair and Ariel Sharon as terrorists.

Don't talk about the justice system of your country sir. 

Your government always talks about democracy and human rights, on the other hand they do nothing to stop human rights violations in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain. Is there democracy in these countries? 

Your government will do nothing to prevent human rights violation there because Saudi and Bahrain regimes are your major allies in the middle east.

Let me not deviate, like I said earlier, the day your government calls criminals like George Bush, Tony Blair and others as 'terrorists'  I'll believe that they treat both Muslims and non Muslims criminals as terrorists.

All the best,

Ali

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 Hello,

@Mir Ali

You said "Give me an instance where a non Muslim criminal was called a terrorist."  I did so.  In fact, I gave you several.

Please don't become angry and irrational when your assertions are proven wrong.  We are all here to learn Bro. 

All the Best,

David

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7 hours ago, Praetorius said:

Remember how 9/11 was celebrated across the world? Does that mean they were directly responsible for it? Guess what, only the US government, CIA and MOSSAD were implicated in those attacks. What the hell are you on about man?

Sigh.

50 people slaughtered by a gun-man, 50 families would have to be in-tune and involved with this. Not only that, but ALL of the hospitals they were rushed into , the medical staff, the doctors would ALL have to be in-tune with this.

The politicians, too, a LARGE network of people, including maybe the president.

And not a single person could let slip.

Such a HUGE risk to employ such an event and stage it, for what purpose?

Israel, zionism, american hegemony and the real devils are loving these conspiracies. These aimless distractions muddy the water for the real analysis of the real devils.

Edited by Tawheed313

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The fact is, whether or not this incident was false flag or not isn't important. What's important is that innocent people are being killed to make muslims look bad in many cases. 

European newspapers are starting to look like 1930z germany newspapers. Specially the comment section. Soon muslims will be carrying around numbers and sent off to "work" camps........

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5 minutes ago, repenter said:

The fact is, whether or not this incident was false flag or not isn't important. What's important is that innocent people are being killed to make muslims look bad in many cases. 

European newspapers are starting to look like 1930z germany newspapers. Specially the comment section. Soon muslims will be carrying around numbers and sent off to "work" camps........

I hate to say it, but, in reality its not "just" non muslims who are making muslims as a whole look bad. The truth is that ISIS themselves, are muslim. As disturbing as it sounds, its just the truth, the same way the KKK realistically are christian. While there are plenty of people out there that are non muslim that want to taint what Islam is, there are muslims themselves doing the same, and are arguably the worst of the two.

ISIS themselves seem to be more interested in putting muslims in "work" camps than non muslims like the EU.

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6 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

I hate to say it, but, in reality its not "just" non muslims who are making muslims as a whole look bad. The truth is that ISIS themselves, are muslim. As disturbing as it sounds, its just the truth, the same way the KKK realistically are christian. While there are plenty of people out there that are non muslim that want to taint what Islam is, there are muslims themselves doing the same, and are arguably the worst of the two.

ISIS themselves seem to be more interested in putting muslims in "work" camps than non muslims like the EU.

I don't understand why you call it realistically? Any slightly inclined academic person knows that ISIS are not muslims, nor are KKK christian. They might call themselves that, but i can also call myself the president of the USA and be totally convinced of it. Does that make me the president of USA or a crazy person? 

 

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7 hours ago, Praetorius said:

You are under the assumption that the average American can differentiate between a Shia and a Sunni, Iraq and Iran (you'd be surprised as to how many think these two countries are one and the same), or even ISIS and Hezbollah. You give them way too much credit. I've personally spoken to many ignorant Americans who didn't know squat about the subtleties of the conflicts occurring in the Middle East and Asia.

You think the average American, after digesting the garbage that's being presented to them, will just up and say "oh the perp was a Sunni Moozlim, the Eye-Rayni Shiites don't got nothin' to do with this"? To them, Islam is a massive, monolithic umbrella with no such thing as diversity. So yes, Iran does get hurt. Sorry you don't see it that way with your delusional appeal to ignorance clouding your judgment.

So the target audience of this 'faleflag' was the American public?
What was the objective of creating internal animosity which does not serve the govt? What did the falseflag guys aimed to achieve from orchestrating this? Because average Americans did have an unfavorable view of Islam before this...no?

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7 hours ago, Praetorius said:

The Paris "attacks" have been thoroughly debunked as a terror drill that went live and conveniently reported as an actual terrorist attack.

Belgian attacks? You mean the one in Brussels? The one where news channels used footage from another attack from years back, edited to make it look authentic?

It's YOU who's living in La La Land. Stay there please, I don't want your cognitive dissonance corrupting us.

so who were the perpetrators of the French and Belgian attacks?
And who, if not from them, have gone to Syria?

And this guy Imran in the clip is also an undercover jew and not Muslim. right? left is the new right ;)

 

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55 minutes ago, repenter said:

I don't understand why you call it realistically? Any slightly inclined academic person knows that ISIS are not muslims, nor are KKK christian. They might call themselves that, but i can also call myself the president of the USA and be totally convinced of it. Does that make me the president of USA or a crazy person? 

 

You cannot say that an individual is not a muslim or not a christian, if say...they were to kill another christian or muslim. Sinful muslims or Christians are not removed from their faith when they sin.

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4 hours ago, David66 said:

 Hello,

@Mir Ali

You said "Give me an instance where a non Muslim criminal was called a terrorist."  I did so.  In fact, I gave you several.

Please don't become angry and irrational when your assertions are proven wrong.  We are all here to learn Bro. 

All the Best,

David

Ya thank you for the precious information . I never got angry anyways. You can call me irrational or anything, but its your government's policies that has destroyed the middle east and made it unstable.

You are trying to avoid my question, why don't you declare George Bush as a terrorist? His crime is evident. 

All I tried to say was, you declare people like him as terrorists and bring them to justice and I'll start believing that there's justice in your country. 

I guess you got angry because I exposed the hypocrisy of your government.

All the best, 

Ali

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52 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

You cannot say that an individual is not a muslim or not a christian, if say...they were to kill another christian or muslim. Sinful muslims or Christians are not removed from their faith when they sin.

A crazy person claiming something is not the same as a sane sinful person claiming something.

ISIS and members of this group are nothing short of crazy.

Islam also teaches us to think........and to detect hypocrites and munafiqs. 

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19 minutes ago, repenter said:

A crazy person claiming something is not the same as a sane sinful person claiming something.

ISIS and members of this group are nothing short of crazy.

Islam also teaches us to think........and to detect hypocrites and munafiqs. 

Its not even just an individual, its thousands.  Regardless, being crazy still doesnt prevent someone from being a Muslim or a Christian.  My guess is, many of them are praying to the same God as you and I. Many of them are fasting during ramadan while the KKK is holding their sunday service, Bible in hand.

I think that by saying they are non muslim or non christian, we are no better than the sunnis who say shia are not muslim, or the protestants who say catholics are not, because their interpretations vary from our own.

 

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6 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

Sigh.

50 people slaughtered by a gun-man, 50 families would have to be in-tune and involved with this. Not only that, but ALL of the hospitals they were rushed into , the medical staff, the doctors would ALL have to be in-tune with this.

The politicians, too, a LARGE network of people, including maybe the president.

And not a single person could let slip.

Such a HUGE risk to employ such an event and stage it, for what purpose?

Israel, zionism, american hegemony and the real devils are loving these conspiracies. These aimless distractions muddy the water for the real analysis of the real devils.

The Sandy HOAX's 27 fake dead children and the sheer large number of "victims" family members would like a word with you on how they made millions of dollars, and how they successfully helped in implementing stricter gun laws in Connecticut. You underestimate the hushing power of money. Do you know how much the current donation fund is for the "victims" of the Pulse Club shooting? It was THREE MILLION DOLLARS when I checked on Friday, and it's still climbing steadily, thanks to the brain-dead Americans who think this was went down the way it did.

EDIT: https://www.gofundme.com/PulseVictimsFund shows the current donation total at more than $5.6 million

And its not a huge risk. Fact of the matter is, the majority of Americans take what's presented on the news at face value and don't suspect any lies from the media. You're giving them too much credit for actually investigating the authenticity of such events.

6 hours ago, Wahdat said:

So the target audience of this 'faleflag' was the American public?
What was the objective of creating internal animosity which does not serve the govt? What did the falseflag guys aimed to achieve from orchestrating this? Because average Americans did have an unfavorable view of Islam before this...no?

Look, I can only speculate what their motive was. Here's what I read in Veterans Today:-

“For those who truly imagine outside the box, it’s crucial to understand the purpose behind the cynical utilization of Orlando, Florida. Home to Disney World and consequently the destination of so many families and their children over generations, it has become the one location you go to get away from it all. You leave the home behind and all of the negative evening news and you travel to the land of make-believe to involve yourself in childhood fun and fantasy.

What’s the point? Well, what better means to galvanize the parents and children across America to take up the problem of gun control in earnest than by shooting up their adult and childhood playground.”

Essentially they're killing two birds with one stone. Fostering further hatred and animosity for Muslims (galvanizing the gay community's disdain against them as well), and enabling further crackdown on gun ownership. The shadow government has been after its citizens' guns for a VERY long time.

Edited by Praetorius
Adding the current donation total for the Pulse "shooting"

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6 hours ago, Wahdat said:

so who were the perpetrators of the French and Belgian attacks?
And who, if not from them, have gone to Syria?

And this guy Imran in the clip is also an undercover jew and not Muslim. right? left is the new right ;)

 

Correlation does not imply causation. Yes, Brussels (and by extension Belgium) is becoming more Islamized and is being continually inundated by Sunni extremists. But the lack of evidence implicating ISIS in any of these attacks is really saying something. There's lots of independent journalists reporting on this, and this is one such article:-

https://crimesofempire.com/2016/03/26/the-dark-truth-behind-the-brussels-attacks/

Quote

 

The absence of wounded and dead people at the scene of the event is a core problem and when you add to that the many videos of the outside of the building at approximately the same time that also show no people with any significant wounds, it is pretty clear what has happened although the authors of the Brussels psyop deserve a lot of credit for the innovation of apparently bombing the empty building before moving in the cast to conduct the psyop.

This is a clunky hypothesis but does seem to be the best explanation for the fact that the building has been damaged but there are no victims of any veracity to be seen.

Fake Wounded People Mean the Event Cannot Possibly be an authentic attack.

A tremendous effort has been made with the Brussels operation and in the days since the event a massive amount of evidence of an “ISIS terror attack” in Brussels has been amassed by the establishment media in an attemtp to sear the Brussels narrative into the mind of the credulous audience. Some of it is superficially convincing such as the much used photo below, but even here critical scrutiny makes it clear that these are fake victims. We are told that the lady in the yellow top and black bra had her clothes blown off by the force of the blast yet she has not suffered any cuts, abrasions or other injuries to these areas.  This is not credible and neither is the woman with the paint blood n her hands blithely talking on the phone beside her. Look at the woman on the phone’s face, does she look like someone who has recently been witness even to a traumatic incident? Or does she appear to  be having another mundane run of the mill day?

 

 

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6 hours ago, repenter said:

The fact is, whether or not this incident was false flag or not isn't important. What's important is that innocent people are being killed to make muslims look bad in many cases. ..

How is it not relevant??? How is implicating the real criminals not relevant? You sound like Noam Chomsky who has stated on record that the matter of who carried out 9/11 is irrelevant... OF-COURSE IT'S RELEVANT!

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Amazing, You're claiming the Sandyhook massacare was a hoax as well? So the parents of the dozens on dozens of children killed are in the hoax, as is the entire elementary school, the relatives, cousins, family friends, the fake funerals, the government, Obama?

Here's my conspiracy theory, it would only benefit Israel, those who seek the world to be distracted by foolish petty pursuits, to not focus on the real injustice and wrong.

Then when you question israel, and people hidden agenda's in legitimate evidenced ways, you are called a conspiracy nut.

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5 hours ago, iCambrian said:

Its not even just an individual, its thousands.  Regardless, being crazy still doesnt prevent someone from being a Muslim or a Christian.  My guess is, many of them are praying to the same God as you and I. Many of them are fasting during ramadan while the KKK is holding their sunday service, Bible in hand.

I think that by saying they are non muslim or non christian, we are no better than the sunnis who say shia are not muslim, or the protestants who say catholics are not, because their interpretations vary from our own.

 

I disagree with you here.

The sunni and shia madhabs are recognized within the fold of Islam.

However, what Daesh are doing by ijma of both sunni's and shia's is an open, perverse distortion of Islam in the most shameful ways, more than mere interpretation and jurisprudential or theological difference.

 

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Received emails from FoxNews.com but did not read. Seems, if true, the FBI was cautious about hiding information but the Department of Justice was forthcoming. 

17 hours ago: BREAKING NEWS: FBI releases redacted transcript of Orlando gunman's 911 calls

13 hours ago: BREAKING NEWS: DOJ releases unredacted transcript of Orlando massacre suspect’s 911 call

♦ Notice the change of the word "gunman" to "massacre suspect" in second email.   

 

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5 hours ago, Praetorius said:

How is it not relevant??? How is implicating the real criminals not relevant? You sound like Noam Chomsky who has stated on record that the matter of who carried out 9/11 is irrelevant... OF-COURSE IT'S RELEVANT!

Talk about misrepresenting someones comment........high five!

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14 hours ago, Praetorius said:

Correlation does not imply causation. Yes, Brussels (and by extension Belgium) is becoming more Islamized and is being continually inundated by Sunni extremists. But the lack of evidence implicating ISIS in any of these attacks is really saying something. There's lots of independent journalists reporting on this, and this is one such article:-

https://crimesofempire.com/2016/03/26/the-dark-truth-behind-the-brussels-attacks/

 

that ^ is very rich from someone that subscribes to conspiracy theories.
Fact of the matter is that Orlando attack was as much an ISIS attack as the Brussels or Paris. These attacks are committed by social misfits or mentally unstable people who want to go postal and just need a cause to make their insanity seem sane. They have nothing to do with religion, faith or anything else of the sort. They waste their youth partying and when its over they cant cope with harsh consequences. 
I know that there is a subculture of conspiracy theorists here in West but I think we should let those who know nothing else besides these societies here fall victims to- mostly white folks. But for those of us who know societies back home its absurd to pen the actions of idiots (the same idiots that fight President Asad or Hezbollah) as some sort of falseflag. Because if it is falseflag here in West then it must also be the case in Syria. And we all know that those martyrs fighting in & for Syria are not faking their deaths...

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Mateen was a mental patient inheriting his mental problems from his father.
HIs father has declared himself to be the President of Afghanistan and forms his cabinet online and holds cabinet meetings on YouTube. He assigns and fires ministers, he declares wars .......on the day of the massacre when he found that his 29 year old son is dead and killed 49 people...he treated it as a newsclip on his YouTube show. He said his son killed 49 people...and on to the other news 'how would i covertly attack Pakistan' lol

in summa- he is a nut. So IMO its less likely that its some sort of halfbaked falseflag job by people who deal with bits and atoms and are very very precise and more likely the case of a nut going postal.

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On 6/21/2016 at 0:52 AM, David66 said:

 Hello,

@Mir Ali

You said "Give me an instance where a non Muslim criminal was called a terrorist."  I did so.  In fact, I gave you several.

Please don't become angry and irrational when your assertions are proven wrong.  We are all here to learn Bro. 

All the Best,

David

I also visited the link. You have given example of an incident which is 2 decades old. 

It occurred before 9/11. I strongly feel the definition of terrorism has changed after 9/11.

Anyways, feel free to inform when your government does something like that now or if they have done something like that in recent years.

Also, please explain if you can, why your government has not labelled individuals like George Bush, Blair, Ariel Sharon or any of the US generals involved in the Iraq or Afghan war as terrorists? 

All the best,

Ali

Edited by Mir Ali

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19 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

I disagree with you here.

The sunni and shia madhabs are recognized within the fold of Islam.

However, what Daesh are doing by ijma of both sunni's and shia's is an open, perverse distortion of Islam in the most shameful ways, more than mere interpretation and jurisprudential or theological difference.

 

 Peoples religions arent defined by a consensus.  Just because it is agreed upon by the vast majority of Christians that the KKK are sinful and are distorting the message of Jesus, it doesnt just make them non Christian.  The same goes for ISIS.  It is in fact interpretation we are dealing with.  Obviously I am not in Iraq right now, but im willing to bet that many members of ISIS perform their 5 daily prayers, fast during Ramadan, have taken the shahada, read their own personal Quran etc.   Of course I wouldnt expect every single one of them to, but most likely a significant percentage.  Just the same, members of the KKK hold church service on sunday.

People like you and I, wouldnt understand how anyone could interpret Islam or Christianity with such falsehood, but ultimately, our opinions do not change the religions they adhere to.

Many people feel as though wahhabism itself is a distortion of Islam and do not agree with it. Perhaps you should call wahhabi non muslim as well.

Edited by iCambrian

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@iCambrian, each person can decide what religion to call themselves, but when people say ISIS are not Muslim, what they are really pointing out is that they are not "us" and what they call Islam is nothing like what we call Islam. 

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Each person can identify with the religion he or she wants, but don't expect others to believe or recognize it. And this has nothing to do with religions but with any ideology. When one says they are not muslim is because they can't recognize anything islamic in them.

The other day there was a student who I meet out of the university by casualty, and she was identifying as feminist. We talked and the conversation kept going until I realized she was actually saying garbage that has nothing to do with feminism but mere egocentrical and selfish behaviour. I gave her a list of books and told her to read them if she was really genuine about her interest in feminism, because I didn't really see a feminist in her. She won't read them most likely, and I won't really consider her a feminist either, but she will keep identifying like that. Why? Because it's cool and helps her feel better the way she is. But regardless of that, the truth is that she is ignorant and has no idea of the core message of feminism, like most so-called feminists today. The fact there is a significant group of idiots calling themselves some way doesn't legitimize it. It is not a matter of relativism. Religion is a field of knowledge and study, not a playground, and those have respected no boundaries.

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:salam:

Orlando massacre was "revenge," not terrorism, says man who claims he was gunman's lover

Mateen was "very sweet" and liked to be "cuddled," the man told Univision. But he harbored a grudge against gays.

Omar Mateen, the Muslim gunman who committed the Pulse nightclub massacre in Orlando, was a confused, gay man who drank heavily and bore a grudge against Latino men he met at Pulse because he felt used by them, according to a man who says he was his lover for two months.

Read more: http://www.univision.com/univision-news/united-states/orlando-massacre-was-revenge-not-terrorism-says-man-who-claims-he-was-gunmans-lover

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39 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Orlando massacre was "revenge," not terrorism, says man who claims he was gunman's lover

That's what I suggested as the most probable scenario from the outset. But the fact is anyone can claim anything. The shooter is dead - he won't contradict them. We will never know why he did what he did.

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44 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

:salam:

Orlando massacre was "revenge," not terrorism, says man who claims he was gunman's lover

Mateen was "very sweet" and liked to be "cuddled," the man told Univision. But he harbored a grudge against gays.

Omar Mateen, the Muslim gunman who committed the Pulse nightclub massacre in Orlando, was a confused, gay man who drank heavily and bore a grudge against Latino men he met at Pulse because he felt used by them, according to a man who says he was his lover for two months.

Read more: http://www.univision.com/univision-news/united-states/orlando-massacre-was-revenge-not-terrorism-says-man-who-claims-he-was-gunmans-lover

The truth is usually less flashy or politically poignant. But the actual truth doesn't matter. 

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11 hours ago, Wahdat said:

that ^ is very rich from someone that subscribes to conspiracy theories.
Fact of the matter is that Orlando attack was as much an ISIS attack as the Brussels or Paris. These attacks are committed by social misfits or mentally unstable people who want to go postal and just need a cause to make their insanity seem sane. They have nothing to do with religion, faith or anything else of the sort. They waste their youth partying and when its over they cant cope with harsh consequences. 
I know that there is a subculture of conspiracy theorists here in West but I think we should let those who know nothing else besides these societies here fall victims to- mostly white folks. But for those of us who know societies back home its absurd to pen the actions of idiots (the same idiots that fight President Asad or Hezbollah) as some sort of falseflag. Because if it is falseflag here in West then it must also be the case in Syria. And we all know that those martyrs fighting in & for Syria are not faking their deaths...

I don't subscribe to "conspiracy theories", I subscribe to reality and active research. The onus of providing proof of whether this event went down the way it's reported according to the official narrative is on proponents of such a narrative. If it truly was according to the official story, then this is what a scientific, verifiable and standard operating procedural approach would look like:-

Claim: 50 people gunned down, another 53 injured. Perpetrator "known" to be Omar Mateen, who swore allegiance to ISIS according to a 911 phone call. Stand-off went down for nearly three hours.

Credible Proof:-

  1. CCTV footage (either from outside the Pulse Nightclub, right next to the entrance, or from cameras mounted on neighboring establishments, like the Dunkin Donuts) showing Mateen entering the club to corroborate the claim
  2. CCTV footage from inside the club, censored as need be, to prove there was a mayhem involving shots fired
  3. Dashcam footage from Police cruisers, uncut, unedited to depict the three hour standoff.
  4. Footage from amateur cameramen showing even just a little bit of the carnage from the outside, like dead bodies or body bags (50 is a large number, can be easily verified right).
  5. Full audio transcript of alleged phone call released to the public to confirm his supposed ties to ISIS, including the metadata to confirm that the call was not fabricated
  6. Police (and Fire Rescue, if available) radio communication transcript (both audio and transcribed) to corroborate their presence and the ensuing exchange of gunfire according to the official timeline.

Now tell me honestly, which of the above proofs have been provided to the public?

  1. No such evidence so far. Only a few photos and selfies of the guy from nowhere near the scene. 
  2. The only thing I can find circulating the internet is a Snapchat video, which some sites are misreporting as "CCTV" footage (talk about deception). Don't even get me started on how fake that is. This is what my friend (his dad is a gun expert) said to me when I showed him this footage
    Quote

    Her non-reaction is important. I used to shoot at an OUTDOOR range and even with proper headphone-like ear protection hearing rifles fired off is jarring before you've gotten acclimated. The AR truly does make a "boom" you can physically feel and not the snappy sound we hear in this video. If indeed an AR were fired inside this club around these people a) without hearing protection, and b) who probably never fired a weapon, they would all be screaming, ducking, and covering their ears. 

    Again, no other kind of verifiable footage. You can't even access the metadata from that video.
  3. Yet again, no such footage.
  4. This is the only video I can find:-
    Analysis of this video reveals how pathetic these actors are:- 
    -No gasps or sighs of pain from their wounds.
    -The wounded are being carried BACK TO THE PULSE NIGHTCLUB!!! Who in their right minds would do that?!
    -The guy in the red boots being carried at the 0:20 mark, in another, raw version is dropped by his friends (they probably assumed they were out of camera range) and stands on his own, AND THEN HIS FRIENDS START JOKING AND LAUGHING! LOL
  5. The FBI has released a written transcript, but refuse to release the audio, on the following baseless grounds (the only reason to do this is because they have something to hide, and it clearly impedes progress into a scientific and honest investigation without "emotional barriers"):-
    Quote

    He also said the decision not to release audio, or details of victims' calls to 911, was to avoid further traumatizing those who were inside the club.

    Alternet's Grayzone Project filed a Freedom of Information (FOIA) request to disclose the audio recording of the 911 call. Guess what? It was denied.
  6. Like they did in Sandy Hoax, they will take at least months to release this to the public, after heavy redaction of "sensitive" material from the transcripts. 

So the only thing you can possibly rely on is the word of the mainstream mass media, which has a consistent and repetitive pattern of lying to sway public opinion and stifle critical thinking.

And who says no false flag attacks take place in foreign countries? Remember the monstrous lie that the West attributed to Bashar al Assad about the usage of Sarin Gas? Guess what, it was proven to be a false flag

I rely on evidence and facts. You rely on emotion and pure rhetoric. Who's being the intellectual sloth here?

Edited by Praetorius

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8 hours ago, notme said:

@iCambrian, each person can decide what religion to call themselves, but when people say ISIS are not Muslim, what they are really pointing out is that they are not "us" and what they call Islam is nothing like what we call Islam. 

I understand.  It really is similar to some protestants saying that Catholics are not Christian because what they believe is not what Protestants believe.  But at the end of the day, Catholics are Christian, just with a different interpretation of the same religion.  Same goes for some of the crazies of ISIS.

Just because theyre different, doesnt make them non muslim, just as it does not make catholics non christian.  You would be surprised how many protestants say that catholics are not christian. Or even how many times I/we have heard other muslims say that shia are not muslim. Or in this case, some saying that wahhabis are not muslim. But they are...

And when you take it full circle back to the beginning of this discussion, the question becomes, who is tainting Islam more, western european christians, or other muslims? And my response was, both. And other muslims, like those within ISIS, other wahhabi and ultra conservative fundamentalists, are arguably the worst of the batch. Theyre giving the world and the media ammunition against the religion.

Ultimately though, beyond being muslim, some of these figures, just being believers taints what it means to be a theist as well. And theyre human beings as well.  Almost making it embarrassing to be related to them. So, we all need a solution. With time I imagine theyll be gone though.

Edited by iCambrian

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On 6/21/2016 at 0:46 AM, Praetorius said:

I rely on evidence and facts. You rely on emotion and pure rhetoric. Who's being the intellectual sloth here?

lol...and despite all that you still are not sure the purpose of the halfbaked falseflag.

I say someone with a mental problem went nuts and shot people...and you bring in thte people who you do not even know yourself and because of the things that you are not sure as responsible party...who sounds insane here?

ps: syrian chemical issue was a wahabi-turkish falseflag...nusra and co are not...they are muslim terrorists...

but all that is irrelevant....its US and Israel...sunnis are wonderful people..i know cuz my butcher is one. :D

Edited by Wahdat

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4 hours ago, iCambrian said:

I understand.  It really is similar to some protestants saying that Catholics are not Christian because what they believe is not what Protestants believe.  But at the end of the day, Catholics are Christian, just with a different interpretation of the same religion.  Same goes for some of the crazies of ISIS.

Just because theyre different, doesnt make them non muslim, just as it does not make catholics non christian.  You would be surprised how many protestants say that catholics are not christian. Or even how many times I/we have heard other muslims say that shia are not muslim. Or in this case, some saying that wahhabis are not muslim. But they are...

And when you take it full circle back to the beginning of this discussion, the question becomes, who is tainting Islam more, western european christians, or other muslims? And my response was, both. And other muslims, like those within ISIS, other wahhabi and ultra conservative fundamentalists, are arguably the worst of the batch. Theyre giving the world and the media ammunition against the religion.

Ultimately though, beyond being muslim, some of these figures, just being believers taints what it means to be a theist as well. And theyre human beings as well.  Almost making it embarrassing to be related to them. So, we all need a solution. With time I imagine theyll be gone though.

Isn't calling the opposing side non-Muslims in itself a takfeer...something takfeeris do?

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sometimes sects disagree based on the interpretations.

Sometimes sects disagree based on total breach to fundamental pillar. For Example, Ahmadis claim that there is prophet after our prophet. That's totally out of the blue. So dose Bahai and other sects.

ISIS is claiming that destruction on earth is the base of islamic state of the prophet. This is blasphemous.

But the most important point that make us say they are not Muslim is that this group is not sect on its own although it relays on wahhabi education, the group is mercenary , intelligence backed, shadow army that has a goal of bringing down Hizb and Bashhar and divide Iraq.

Then someone say : the sis islam... no it isn't. Enslaving and displacing and killing innocent, unarmed, non militant , peaceful muslims and non muslims is not islam.

Cutting the hand of thief? They do it wrong! A poor hand may not be cut, ignorant man hand may not be cut, man stealing trivial amount like a medicine or loaf of bread may not have his hand cut! There are dozens of conditions to cut hand of true thief. If done properly, some extra rich thiefs will get their hands cut, including some of ISIS members.

That's why we say : they are not muslims.. they do not represent the billion muslim on earth ! No matter how much likeness they try to draw upon themselves as Muslims, putting beards and praying and fasting and all these regular stuff that regular muslims do... these thugs are not muslims the way prophet defined a muslim : A muslim is a man whom people are in safety from him tongue and his hand.

It is a common phrase to hear some low wage asian in arab countries saying " these are not muslims, they did not pay me my wage for a year, when i protest, i was put in jail or something... yes cause this act is not islamic. prophet say we should pay the hired man before his sweat on his body dry up!

 

srsly now.. you won't turn this to some pointless talk about how isis are poor and the rest of muslims are evil!

We have been on earth long before isis or its mother alqaeda appeared, we have fought each other and had peace and coexisted and sometimes we didn't ... but no atrocities reached the level of these thugs and it is well known that they do not act on their own and it is obvious that their war is backed by some political parties that are hardly called muslims.

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