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BREAKING: MASS SHOOTING IN ORLANDO GAY NIGHTLUB

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I still haven't found a single photo, video or even audio evidence that remotely ties Omar Mateen to the club that night, or so much as proves a "massacre". The audio transcript for the supposed call by Mateen to 911 declaring his allegiance to ISIS has also not been released. And yet you're all bickering under the assumption that this event actually went down in accordance with the official narrative?

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1 hour ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

here one of the many tweets

ISIS is an organised crime gang, they do not do things randomly. 

 

ISIS is just the brainchild of USA, Israel and NATO allies and serves as the replacement boogeyman to OBL in order to further this War OF Terror

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Because then people lash out, jump, shoot into muslim houses, jump and beat up in front of mosques in queens, and stand in front of our masjids armed and making threats.  That's why. 

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4 hours ago, Praetorius said:

I still haven't found a single photo, video or even audio evidence that remotely ties Omar Mateen to the club that night, or so much as proves a "massacre". The audio transcript for the supposed call by Mateen to 911 declaring his allegiance to ISIS has also not been released. And yet you're all bickering under the assumption that this event actually went down in accordance with the official narrative?

 

Maybe we can discuss how the government is hiding short, big headed, 3 fingered aliens in arizona for our next topic. Thats more believable, right?

Edited by iCambrian

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7 hours ago, Praetorius said:

ISIS is just the brainchild of USA, Israel and NATO allies and serves as the replacement boogeyman to OBL in order to further this War OF Terror

This sort of talk and thinking needs to be eliminated. Islam (Muslims) need to take responsibility for the extreme rhetoric that is poisoning peoples' minds. Take responsibility. Trump is a total buffoon and insane wingnut, but he said something following the attacks that is sooooo true. Muslims are reluctant to turn in and/or report those who are extreme for fear of retaliation or some twisted form of disloyalty. Then again, lying and deception is notoriously prevalent in Middle Eastern cultures. Mateen's wife knew he was planning something and she said NOTHING!!!

I truly feel sorry for her for she will surely join her husband in Hell.

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2 hours ago, Convertible said:

This sort of talk and thinking needs to be eliminated. Islam (Muslims) need to take responsibility for the extreme rhetoric that is poisoning peoples' minds. Take responsibility. Trump is a total buffoon and insane wingnut, but he said something following the attacks that is sooooo true. Muslims are reluctant to turn in and/or report those who are extreme for fear of retaliation or some twisted form of disloyalty. Then again, lying and deception is notoriously prevalent in Middle Eastern cultures. Mateen's wife knew he was planning something and she said NOTHING!!!

On that note, we Shi'a are sometimes I think a little too generous to not actually call out Sunni terrorism for being Sunni terrorism because we're afraid that would be saying something to jeapordize Islamic Unity. But we have to understand that the vast majority of religiously motivated terrorist attacks in the world are done by members who formally or informally are part of the Sunni branch of Islam. The amount of actual Shi'a terrorist attacks are minuscule in comparison even when you consider those done in response to Sunni or Wahhabi aggression.

This sort of terrorism is much less an "Islamic problem" and much more of a "Sunni problem" Sure, there is Shi'a terrorism  but it is less than a third or even a fourth of Sunni terrorism. Some sources I have read seem to give a ratio of around 500-800 Shi'a attacks to every 17,000 Sunni motivated ones with a maximum of death toll of little over 1,200 for every 500 Shi'a attacks compared to something like 30,000 to 40,000 for all Sunni attacks since 2011. And also consider that Hezbollah was labeled a Shia terrorist organization simply for bombing Isreali Defense Forces not necessarily for intentionally harming large numbers of civilians and that many of the fewer Shi'a terrorist attacks are usually some kind of retaliation against real or perceived Sunni aggressions.  While we should maintain unity and solidarity with those Sunnis who express unity and solidarity with us, we shouldn't be afraid to point out to the West that we as followers of the Ahlul Bayt don't have much if any part at all in the vast majority of Islamically motivated terrorist attacks, least of all those directed at civilian targets and that this is more of a problem for the Sunnis and that it is the Sunnis who need to do more, not us. It's not fair that the name of our religion should be dragged down in the mud for the sake of some sense of unity that hardly seems to be benefiting us these days.

 

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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On 2016-06-14 at 11:25 PM, wmehar2 said:

Because if we don't, the westerners will say we don't care enough to discuss it.  Not that I support that entirely, I'm not quite sure where to stand.  It's going to be tough times for us muslims in the days to come.  I've read now that it's confirmed the shooter, Mateen, was also homosexual himself.  Which to me is something that should also be addressed as Islam progresses through 21st century where western Ideals prevail. 

That reason is the worst reason I have EVER heard.

OUR DECISIONS ARE NOT BASED ON WHAT THEY SAY AND THEY THINK. The westerners can say what ever the hell they want, it makes no difference, but whether you lett yourself get manipulated and dance to their flute or not, THAT makes a difference.

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7 hours ago, iCambrian said:

 

Maybe we can discuss how the government is hiding short, big headed, 3 fingered aliens in arizona for our next topic. Thats more believable, right?

See this is the problem with folks like you. You automatically assume that all conspiracy theorists are followers of someone as deluded as David Icke. Also, instead of addressing my very legitimate concerns, you took a jab at how I skeptically assess each an every scenario, given the absurd track record of the media which is full of BS. Pakistani news does better reporting than any of them, using actual CCTV footage from the scene of the crime. and that's saying a lot.

Here's another example, where armed gunmen broke into a hospital and opened fire on a poor soul. Uncut footage, albeit slightly edited to censor out gore. 

So I ask again, where is the footage of this Mateen character entering the Pulse nightclub? Where is the audio transcript of his alleged 911 call?

You think I'm gonna accept the word of the media on this? The same media which sold the bullcr@p 9/11 narrative to the public? The same media which sold the lie of WMDs in Iraq? The same media which sold the Nayirah testimony to fuel the Gulf War efforts? The same media which lied about the Gulf of Tonkin incident which led to the brutal war in Vietnam?The same media which refuses to report on how the US, Israel and NATO allies have been actively arming ISIS and continue to do so?

Shame on you for shying away.

 

Edited by Praetorius
More reasons for the media to lie.

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4 hours ago, Convertible said:

This sort of talk and thinking needs to be eliminated. Islam (Muslims) need to take responsibility for the extreme rhetoric that is poisoning peoples' minds.

Why do you feel the need to "eliminate" the talk of truth? There is an extensive plethora of evidence which shows how the US, Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, France and several other NATO allies have been consistently arming ISIS in Syria to topple Bashar al Assad in Syria.

Look where that got us: a war that has result in the destruction Syrian lives and infrastructure and a subsequent massive refugee influx into Europe and neighboring countries.

Why do you feel Muslims like me should take responsibility for ISIS, when I know that my Shia brethren from Iran and Iraq are at the forefront of this conflict and actively combating ISIS as we speak? 

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2 hours ago, IbnSina said:

That reason is the worst reason I have EVER heard.

OUR DECISIONS ARE NOT BASED ON WHAT THEY SAY AND THEY THINK. The westerners can say what ever the hell they want, it makes no difference, but whether you lett yourself get manipulated and dance to their flute or not, THAT makes a difference.

For a Shia' to say your decisions are not based on what a country of non-muslims/those in power think, that's a little hypocritical considering the exercise of Taqiyah.   You don't think muslims here are not exposed to risk of Western Pushback?   Do you even live in States?  Are you not aware of the threats we face, the random shooting of bullets indiscriminately into muslim houses, the muslims pushed into subways, or getting randomly beat up in the streets?

I think you need a reality adjustment if you're living here in the States or the UK/west.  UK people experience this too.   Of course our decisions and actions need to be thought carefully based on their rhetoric or else were going to find ourselves in deep dog doo doo.   I'm not saying we need to cater to their perception and become western in our traditions and culture, by any means if that's what you think I'm insinuating.

But however, I think you read me wrong, when I say "because westerners will  accuse us of not caring enough to discuss it",  .. Because I'm implying we should realize we're not in a Shariah/Muslim majority country.  Our reactions, actions are subjected to heavy scrutiny in a skewed manner.  Each good deed weighs 1/10th its weight with these people, while every bad or seemingly bad misdeed weighs 1000 pounds.  

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On 6/14/2016 at 5:36 PM, wmehar2 said:

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.  Eventually, we have to come to reconcile our problems with the wisdom Allah SWT granted us.  We desperately fight in the West and US to say these terrorists are fundamentally not muslim in anyway shape or form, which doesn't solve the problem; we're basing this assumption on a notion that a real muslim whose learned in their faith has read their holy book front to back and understood at least a good portion of it, would never commit these acts. 

Quran 4:16 :  If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and mend, Leave them alone (do not annoy them in other words after they were punished); for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

Recognizing social/psychological/political factors influencing these individuals to commit abhorrent acts of violence, and then dealing with them is much more effective approach.  And then we must convey to the West that these are the same factors plaguing their own kind when non-muslims go on shooting sprees committing mass killing, and that we're not all that different from each other. 

@IbnSina

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3 hours ago, Praetorius said:

 

Your way of thinking is a detriment to your own people. To even propose that the shootings never occurred, is idiotic.

Maybe youre just a troll? Maybe a kid who doesnt know any better?

Edited by iCambrian

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3 hours ago, Praetorius said:

Why do you feel the need to "eliminate" the talk of truth? There is an extensive plethora of evidence which shows how the US, Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, France and several other NATO allies have been consistently arming ISIS in Syria to topple Bashar al Assad in Syria.

Look where that got us: a war that has result in the destruction Syrian lives and infrastructure and a subsequent massive refugee influx into Europe and neighboring countries.

Why do you feel Muslims like me should take responsibility for ISIS, when I know that my Shia brethren from Iran and Iraq are at the forefront of this conflict and actively combating ISIS as we speak? 

Yes, I get all that and there are certainly true examples of false flag operations. You do not need to convince me.

What we need to eliminate is the knee jerk reaction that any attack attributed to a Muslim is a false flag operation. What we also need to eliminate is the subsequent reaction stemming from a false paradigm (false flag) that feeds into the irresponsibliity so rampant in Middle Eastern culture and within Islam.

Immediately claiming that this attack was a false flag operation is irresponsible. You and I (and everyone else) are responsible to all of our Muslim Brothers and Sisters, no matter to which sect they belong.

Shifting the blame from Shi'a to Sunni is a non-starter. We are all Muslims and withing Islam no one can sincerely deny that extreme rhetoric is poisoning the minds of many of our Brothers and Sisters.

But if you feel the need to sweep the real issue under the rug, then may God be with you, Brother.

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3 hours ago, iCambrian said:

To even propose that the shootings never occurred, is idiotic.

Based on what evidence? Please, I'm all ears. Show me proof that this shooting occurred the way it's purported in the media. I don't want eyewitness testimonies (some of them have claimed multiple shooters), but cold-hard evidence. Where's the footage from CCTV cameras of neighboring establishments, if the one from inside the club is "sensitive"? Why has the audio transcript for the 911 call not been released to the public? The supposed standoff went on for three whole hours, yet all we have is barely minutes worth of footage of what looks like a live active shooter drill, so why can't we see any kind of full length videos e.g. from cameras mounted on police cruisers? [EDITED OUT]

I'm not proposing it as a complete hoax. It's possible that some people may have died, just like people were killed in the Colorado Theater massacre (again, no footage whatsoever showing James Holmes entering the theater), but that the incident may have been blown way out of proportion, e.g. the first reported death toll was 20, but within minutes it jumped to 50... WHO PRONOUNCED THEM DEAD??? Where are the coroner's reports?

It's the same regurgitated pattern we saw emerge during 9/11 where not a single uncut footage of the alleged aircraft of flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon has been released, despite over 200 cameras recording it. That tells me the authorities have something to hide.

As a chemical engineer, my scientific approach has always been following the evidence, noticing patterns and, most importantly, learning from history. And what exactly does history tell us? That governments and their puppet media have been lying time and time again about events, at the very least partially. 

[EDITED OUT].

Edited by starlight
please refrain from name calling and insulting comments.

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1 hour ago, Convertible said:

Yes, I get all that and there are certainly true examples of false flag operations. You do not need to convince me.

What we need to eliminate is the knee jerk reaction that any attack attributed to a Muslim is a false flag operation. What we also need to eliminate is the subsequent reaction stemming from a false paradigm (false flag) that feeds into the irresponsibliity so rampant in Middle Eastern culture and within Islam.

Immediately claiming that this attack was a false flag operation is irresponsible. You and I (and everyone else) are responsible to all of our Muslim Brothers and Sisters, no matter to which sect they belong.

Shifting the blame from Shi'a to Sunni is a non-starter. We are all Muslims and withing Islam no one can sincerely deny that extreme rhetoric is poisoning the minds of many of our Brothers and Sisters.

But if you feel the need to sweep the real issue under the rug, then may God be with you, Brother.

How is genuinely asking for evidence of people's deaths a knee-jerk reaction? 

Media: There's been a shooting at a nightclub. Around 50 people have died and the shooter has been identified as Omar Mateen

Me: Hmm, if they know who the shooter was, surely they possess footage of him entering the club with the AR-15 (not exactly a weapon you can hide in your pocket) given how there's tonnes of CCTV cameras around the complex, as well as across the streets.

*channel shows no such video, only a photo of the alleged perp, and some botched interviews of victims' family members appearing to read from cue cards or teleprompters*

Me: Huh? A three hour standoff? Surely they must have caught a glimpse of the shooter? 

*no such clip shown*

Me: WTF???

Media: We've been informed that Omar made a call to 911 moments before entering this club, in which he swore allegiance to ISIS and expressed hatred for the gay community.

Me: Err okay, they can at least play that on TV though, right?

*no such audio clip is played*

Me:-

286798

I don't see why an intelligent person would not take the media's narrative with a pinch of salt if this is the garbage we are fed.

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Moderator note: we can have differences of opinion without resorting to name-calling. Please conduct yourselves with some dignity and restraint. It is much easier to listen to a dissenting opinion when it is communicated intelligently and without insult. 

This post is in response to some reports we have recently gotten.

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Fair of mods to edit out what I wrote, which I admit went overboard.

But I gotta ask... Is name calling all that you ever address? I mean, look at how this guy insinuates that I believe in some absurd lizard race. 

20 hours ago, iCambrian said:

 

Maybe we can discuss how the government is hiding short, big headed, 3 fingered aliens in arizona for our next topic. Thats more believable, right?

And here, he refers to my scientific (oh the irony of his profile title) and skeptical approach as idiotic, then proceeds to call me a troll for asking legitimate questions. The cognitive dissonance here is actually quite amusing.:einstein:

8 hours ago, iCambrian said:

Your way of thinking is a detriment to your own people. To even propose that the shootings never occurred, is idiotic.

Maybe youre just a troll? Maybe a kid who doesnt know any better?

Edited by Praetorius

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And the cracks begin to widen...

Police refuse to release Orlando 911 call causing suspicion over Mateen’s motives

Quote

Orlando police are refusing to release the 911 call that Omar Mateen placed the night he killed 49 people at Pulse nightclub, raising questions about the details revealed in his call.

Alternet reports that the Orlando Police Department denied a Freedom of Information request made by the website’s Grayzone Project, which sought a transcript or audio recording of any calls made by the mass shooter that night.

“The records being requested are exempt from disclosure at this time. Section 119.071(2)(c)1., Florida Statutes, exempts from disclosure all active criminal investigative information,” read the police department’s response.

I read; "We are buying time and trying to alter the recordings in such fashion that it does not contradict our agenda."

By carefully managing the release of information, law enforcement appears to be shaping a politically convenient story-line, and so far seem to be not one bit interested in disseminating the actual truth. :censored:

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21 minutes ago, Praetorius said:

But I gotta ask... Is name calling all that you ever address? I mean, look at how this guy insinuates that I believe in some absurd lizard race. 

I can't speak for other moderators, but I tend to want to let people resolve differences on their own and only step in where absolutely necessary.  You can either ignore or refute his statements, can't you?  We only decided to put in a comment about name calling to let the people who were reporting know that we were aware of their reports and had discussed them and decided to not issue suspensions or warnings in this instance.

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Texas Representative Sessions (R) says it wasn't a gay club, therefore it wasn't a hate crime.  The club self-identifies as a gay club.  I can't figure out this guy's angle.  What is he trying to do, newspeak?  If you repeat it enough it becomes true?  

Lawmaker Blocks Nondiscrimination Bill After Claiming Gay People Weren’t Targets In Orlando Shooting

Though to be fair, I don't know that it's useful to make more laws.  Shooting people is already illegal.  I doubt another law would have made a difference in this case.

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7 hours ago, notme said:

Texas Representative Sessions (R) says it wasn't a gay club, therefore it wasn't a hate crime.  The club self-identifies as a gay club.  I can't figure out this guy's angle.  What is he trying to do, newspeak?  If you repeat it enough it becomes true?  

Lawmaker Blocks Nondiscrimination Bill After Claiming Gay People Weren’t Targets In Orlando Shooting

Though to be fair, I don't know that it's useful to make more laws.  Shooting people is already illegal.  I doubt another law would have made a difference in this case.

Gay clubs by themselves are illegal as they are discriminatory towards people on the basis of their sexual orientation. They are as illegal as a straight club. If amy of you wanted to enter in a gay club, whether you are man or woman, muslim or not, straight or gay, they can't prohibit you from doing so. It is illegal.

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5 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Gay clubs by themselves are illegal as they are discriminatory towards people on the basis of their sexual orientation. They are as illegal as a straight club. If amy of you wanted to enter in a gay club, whether you are man or woman, muslim or not, straight or gay, they can't prohibit you from doing so. It is illegal.

The club describes itself as the premier spot for gay people to come together or something like that. If a club calls itself a "gentlemen's club" and lets women in, men are still their target clientele. 

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Republicans are trying desperately to paint this as another 'Attack on America' by the evil MOOOOSLEMS (as br. Baradar would say)

If it is a hate crime, then people will start referring to it as a hate crime and not a terrorist attack, which goes against their agenda. The more 'Terrorist attacks' the more money for Defense Contractors and the State of Israel, which are the main backers of the Republicans. 

BTW, just for the record, I condemn this attack, it was an act done outside the laws of Islam, and thus an act of mass murder. Whether the people were gay or not gay is irrelevant. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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9 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Republicans are trying desperately to paint this as another 'Attack on America' by the evil MOOOOSLEMS (as br. Baradar would say)

If it is a hate crime, then people will start referring to it as a hate crime and not a terrorist attack, which goes against their agenda. The more 'Terrorist attacks' the more money for Defense Contractors and the State of Israel, which are the main backers of the Republicans. 

BTW, just for the record, I condemn this attack, it was an act done outside the laws of Islam, and thus an act of mass murder. Whether the people were gay or not gay is irrelevant. 

An "Attack on America" by an American. Pathetic! The Republicans have no clue what to do with this. It certainly is a domestic terror attack, but also a hate crime. If they come out and defend gay people, then they will be going against much of their constituency, who hold a deep contempt for people other than straight. The ISIS thing is stupid. Omar Mateen was just a very disturbed man. Nothing more, nothing less.

At least two American Christian preachers are on the record as celebrating the massacre of "pedophiles". I wonder how these two preachers vote. The politics of this is insidious as the Republicans fumble the ball time and time again regarding "the gays".

Maybe Trump can stand up for "the gays" and "his African-American". What a joke the American political climate has become.

Meanwhile, a lot of people are dead and others changed forever because of a nutjob bent by his own religion. Let's call it what it really is; a hate crime!

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12 hours ago, Bakir said:

Gay clubs by themselves are illegal as they are discriminatory towards people on the basis of their sexual orientation. They are as illegal as a straight club. If amy of you wanted to enter in a gay club, whether you are man or woman, muslim or not, straight or gay, they can't prohibit you from doing so. It is illegal.

All clubs which contain alcohol and dancing and other useless things are illegal in Islam. 

Edited by The Batman

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On 6/14/2016 at 2:32 PM, IbnSina said:

Whats the point of discussing something that is obvious?

The point is to share opinions.

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On 6/14/2016 at 9:59 AM, King said:

You have not seen huge demonstrations during Obama's tenure due to the nature of the conflicts, Iraq was an all out, unapologetic war of aggression. We are not talking proxies, NATO guises, arming rebels etc, there was a built up and it was a full fledged invasion based on seemingly bogus claims which people could easily rally against.  If Obama was to launch a similarly blatant war on Iran tomorrow, I am certain we would have millions on the streets again. Even so, despite the establishment propaganda and excuses, Obama's drone campaign and the war on terror for example have been heavily criticized by left leaning activists and human rights organizations, increasingly, so are Israeli atrocities.  These sort of criticisms do not get much coverage in the mainstream press for obvious reasons, so again, we have to be careful in distinguishing between the highly corporatized liberal media which restricts the debate along an extremely narrow spectrum and left leaning ordinary people who despise the so called 'liberal' establishment just as much as you do. Even though Obama has been worse than Bush on a host of foreign policy matters, sometimes people just aren't exposed to the right facts, as you mentioned, a lot of them wouldn't have any idea about what has transpired in Yemen.

 

Bro I'm sorry but I just don't respect that distinction.

 

The Syria war is no less a war of aggression than the Iraq war. If anything, it's far worse. The nature of this war means that it can just continue perpetually. So even though there are no large-scale set piece battles, the level of ruination in the country is as much if not more, than in the case of Iraq. And all of these terrorist mercenaries are bought and sold by the US and Israel, so it surely is not a civil war. It is a war of aggression.

 

Most liberals just say: we need to make sure our help reaches the "moderate rebels." They may as well say that they need to make sure our help reaches the unicorn legion. The existence of moderate rebels in Syria may as well be a Greek myth.

 

Of course, there are still a small, insignificant number of true blue leftists remaining in the US, mostly consisting of excommunicated intellectuals. But we're talking about liberals here, not leftists. There are not enough leftists in the US for their opinions to matter when making such a comparison.

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