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BREAKING: MASS SHOOTING IN ORLANDO GAY NIGHTLUB

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5 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

brotherr, how is this a false flag? the number of people needed to be involved in this would be enormous. If even one leaked the truth it would destroy america.

This fallacy involving "ermagard the number of people needed to keep this a secret simply makes it impossible hurr durr" has already fallen flat on its face. The Manhattan project involved hundreds, if not thousands of people. Yet it was maintained in secrecy for years. 

You operate under the assumption that people are intelligent enough to discern the lies propagated on TV. You're horribly mistaken. 

And one other thing. Each of these false flag events/hoaxes tend to result in a VERY large payout for the "victims" family members. So yes, money can shut people up pretty easily. 

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40 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

 

To be fair, according to shia islam, it is impermissible to discriminate those who are transgender, and Iran pays for sex-change operations.

So we are homophobic, but not transphobic.

It's also LGBTQIN in my view,

There is gender queer, gender neutral, gender non-binary, etc.

 

I honestly don't agree with the Iranian government on this issue. Also, the Iranian government goes about this all wrong anyway as it uses the transgender operations to try to curtail homosexuality as if the two are necessarily related.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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29 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

I heard that in Iran [i'm pro iran btw] even if you have one part normal, you'll still get it.

 

I have also heard and read that this was the case. (That Iran is #2 behind Thailand in such operations). If so, I think people are exploiting the law.

 

To the best of my knowledge the only Islamic reason to have such an operation is in the case of:

 

1) Having both parts, or

2) Having hormones that are out of whack (i.e. having hormones which are more in common with the opposite sex)

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1 hour ago, Tawheed313 said:

9fdbh.gif?w=636

It's all coming out (pun intended), my man. Omar Mateen has been seen at this nightclub several times and has had profiles on gay/bisexual apps and websites for men. Deal with it.

Edited by Convertible

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On 6/12/2016 at 11:04 PM, Saintly_Jinn23 said:

Honestly, we shouldn't make too many enemies on the right. Many of the right-wing, at least in America, are conservative Christians who share far more in common with us than the left-wing University feminists who pretend they care about our faith when they just want to infiltrate it and make it more "progressive" by their standards. Many of them could be swayed to relax their opinions on us if we reached out to them in a more meaningful way.

But right now, I can just imagine the right-wingers on the internet like 4chan, the MSNBC comment section, youtube, etc. mocking the so-called progressive left over the fact that it was a Muslim that shot up all these gay people with things like "I wonder how the multicultural Mudslime loving social justice warriors will defend Pisslam now when they're killing fags".

One reason the right-wing dislikes us is that they often see us as tools of the modern progressive left-wing and I can't help but think that we have indeed allowed ourselves to become pets of the Left rather than building better relationships with the more conservative and traditional elements of Western society by emphasizing our shared Abrahamic values. At least the right tend to hate us openly so we know what they're all about, the Lefties often pretend they're our friends but ultimately want to destroy our religion from within and make us all happy, race neutral, transgender gay Marxist Muslims and if they can't do that, they'll make us atheists for whom Muslim is just an ideological or racial thing like how for the Jews today, being Jew is more about race and supporting Israel than following Orthodox, non-gay friendly Judaism.

What are you talking about? The quote you replied to mentioned fascist right wing extremists, who in their right minds would want to strive for solidarity based on 'common shared values' with such nut-heads?  Good luck with that.

If you simply meant regular sane and practicing Christians with conservative values (which I doubt you did), well I don't know any muslim that is harshly critical of such folks or desires to make enemies out of them.

22 hours ago, Saintly_Jinn23 said:

Forcing races to mix is as bad as forcing them apart. Many on the modern left think that the solution to end racism is to promote so much race mixing that there exist practically no more individual races and everyone is just one bland race with nothing special about them, as opposed to people of different races learning to live with one another and cherish one another's differences.

Who is forcing races to mix? The invisible hand? 

Islamically speaking, race isn't something you are suppose to consider when considering an individual to marry, so yes, we should be race-neutral in such domains.  This is islam, not just some hippie professor on a college campus.

Edited by King

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15 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

I'll ignore the theological misunderstandings and clarify the " Christian" stance. It's okay with me if you don't want to hang out with either group on the political spectrum , but I would like to set some things straight.

No, most Christians, especially those on that nasty LEFT, see you as worshipping the same God they do and want religious freedom for you. They are opposed by extreme Christians on the RIGHT, who continually make statements like this. But because they also dislike LGBTQI folks, some Muslims in this forum turn a blind eye to the fact that post -9/11, it has become an article of faith for this demographic to hate Muslims. This is what Trump is tapping into. 

The LEFT ( including the Lefty Christians) were in the streets in the hundreds of thousands protesting the invasion of Iraq and a whole bunch of other things done to the Muslim world by the Bush crew. Some went to jail. But,hey,  let some Muslims ignore that because they have a few things in common with Christians on the RIGHT, who were mostly cheerleading the war and telling us how " unpatriotic" we were and that " the enemy" would see this. We told them that the Iraqis were not our enemies and we certainly hoped they would see the rage against the war. That's just one example. 

But somehow this script has been flipped  by some folks here because well, the right hates gays people like we do. So they must be the peachy keen people. ( Hitler put gays in concentration camps,too. Guess he was a peachy keen person. Yes, I'm being hyperbolic on this post, but hope you get my meaning. You are biting the hand that helps you most of the time.) 

 No one can speak for all Muslims, of course.  The Muslims  from an  Islamic Center  in the region at the vigil last night did a fantastic job of condemning the mass murder hate crime while not apologizing for Islam or Muslims in general and sure wanted people to stand in solidarity with each other, gay and Muslim. They got the biggest round of applause there. ( Afterwards we all got dates...I mean the food...too!)  :grin:

You made me sound like I am in love with the right. I am neither in favour of the left or the right. 

Btw, how do you worship my God? Do you worship Allah or Jesus? Or both?

Edited by The Batman

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3 hours ago, King said:

If you simply meant regular sane and practicing Christians with conservative values (which I doubt you did),

Except for the fact that I was explicitly referring to said Christians. The thing is the majority of Christians in America tend to lean towards the right. I can't speak for Europe, where the right usually involves something different, but most right-wingers in the United are in some way motivated by a sense of Christian values or what they understand to be Christian values.

My point was two-fold:

1. Generally speaking, the average, practicing Muslim in America probably has much more in common in with the average right-leaning Christian than he or she necessarily does with the modern American Left whose values and politics seriously conflict with both traditional Christianity (both Catholicism and Protestantism) and Islam.

2. We often contribute to the right-wing Christian suspicions or fears about Islam and Muslims by making too many allies on the Left as it is. We do this because on the one hand some on the Left appear much more eager to defend our rights and on the other hand many younger generations of Muslims, especially those for whom Islam is more of a cultural thing or a race thing, are also influenced by the ideas of Leftism. What we don't realize though is that many on the Left have their own political agendas that don't necessarily concern traditional Islamic values, especially since traditional Islamic values quite often conflict with the values of the modern Left.

I was not at all suggesting that we should build ties with right-wing fascist extremists, I was only adding to that other brother's post that not all of the right-wing is like that and also pointing out, although I personally am leaning towards the idea that Islam should have its own independent political spectrum of ideas and schools of political and economic thought that don't necessarily correspond to what is understood as Left or Right in the West, that we shouldn't let fear of these groups prevent us from developing better relations with the American right-wing, which is something we'll need to do, as I pointed out to @The Batman if we want to be an independent from both.

 

3 hours ago, King said:

Who is forcing races to mix? The invisible hand?

I wasn't saying anyone was being forced to mix, but the attitude that race mixing is somehow the more "progressive" thing to do I think does permeate throughout a lot of American media these days.

3 hours ago, King said:

Islamically speaking, race isn't something you are suppose to consider when considering an individual to marry, so yes, we should be race-neutral in such domains.  This is islam, not just some hippie professor on a college campus.

If what you are saying is that an individual should choose piety and virtue over just race, I agree, but I don't think you understand what I mean by race-neutral. What I mean is that if we follow the idea that race-mixing is somehow the more "progressive" option, the only natural end of this is the idea of everybody just becoming one single race. I believe this in fact goes against Allah's divine command for diversity of tribes, nations and races. While our Imams married non-Arabs and were sometimes the products of such unions, they never ascribed any "progressive" value to these actions. Islam both encourages unity between different races and tribes through cooperation and sometimes intermarriage by giving a common religious culture but at the same time generally preserves the independence of each tribe or nation to determine it's own racial and/or cultural character for itself within an Islamic framework. Thus, there is nothing non-Islamic about a white Muslim nation wanting to remain white and another black Muslim nation deciding to remain black while another pair of white & black Muslim nations choose to mix and create a new tribe/nation. Both are equally Islamic options as long as one isn't forcing the other to follow its example. This is nothing like the progressive view of race-mixing that treads close to saying that mixed raced children are somehow better because they symbolize the end of racism.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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4 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

 

To be fair, according to shia islam, it is impermissible to discriminate those who are transgender, and Iran pays for sex-change operations.

So we are homophobic, but not transphobic.

It's also LGBTQIN in my view,

There is gender queer, gender neutral, gender non-binary, etc.

 

Just saying, not all ulama allow this sort of surgery.

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15 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

The LEFT ( including the Lefty Christians) were in the streets in the hundreds of thousands protesting the invasion of Iraq and a whole bunch of other things done to the Muslim world by the Bush crew. Some went to jail. But,hey,  let some Muslims ignore that because they have a few things in common with Christians on the RIGHT, who were mostly cheerleading the war and telling us how " unpatriotic" we were and that " the enemy" would see this. We told them that the Iraqis were not our enemies and we certainly hoped they would see the rage against the war. That's just one example.

We're mostly Shi'a on this forum, as far as the Iraq war is concerned, you'll find our opinions tend to be more complicated than just "oooh, that evil bush"

Also, the majority of Christians in America are not on the Left.

15 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

But somehow this script has been flipped  by some folks here because well, the right hates gays people like we do. So they must be the peachy keen people. ( Hitler put gays in concentration camps,too. Guess he was a peachy keen person. Yes, I'm being hyperbolic on this post, but hope you get my meaning. You are biting the hand that helps you most of the time.)

The American Left proved their hypocrisy when they protested everything the Bush administration did in its bumbling around in the Islamic world but turned a blind eye when Obama, Hillary and friends continued practically the same if not even worse policies and meddling than the Bush administration.

Also, I think you're misunderstanding something. Nobody is saying that the right are our friends because they generally share a lot of our religious views on gays. But there is no doubt that the Left generally has an agenda to further promote the normalization of homosexuality and other similar behaviors which is something most Muslims, who share the opinion that homosexuality is a grave sin and should not be so easily tolerated by any society, Christian or Muslim, don't really want to be a part of. Your attitude here almost makes it sound like we're indebted to the Left and owe them something. And that's kind of the reason why I'm uncomfortable with us getting too close to any one side of the Left/Right political arena, because whenever the Left or the Right does something for us, they will usually expect us to give something in return, like votes or ideological support for whatever it is they do. I think it's better if we learn to do things more and more for ourselves so we can afford to have our own opinions, whether they agree with the Left or the Right.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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4 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

brotherr, how is this a false flag? the number of people needed to be involved in this would be enormous. If even one leaked the truth it would destroy america.

Brother, it is very well possible. Anything can happen, and it is best we keep everything under consideration. The west is doing their best to shame the name of Islam and destabilize the Ummah to create sectarian conflict.

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55 minutes ago, The Batman said:

Can hardly call this guy a pastor. Where is the love that Jesus (A.S.) taught? Sad these people exist among a community of people that should be loving and caring. Brings a bad name to their community.

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:salam:

Orlando Shooter Was Reportedly a Regular at Pulse and Had a Profile on Gay Dating App

But according to witnesses, Mateen was also a regular at the club and exchanged messages with at least one gay man on a gay dating app.

http://gawker.com/orlando-shooter-was-reportedly-a-regular-at-pulse-and-h-1781920316

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@Saintly_Jinn23

 

Let's be friends.

 

What you are saying is absolutely correct. If we're gonna be politically active in these decrepit and lifeless political systems, we should at least do so in an intelligent way. Instead of begging to the benevolent hippies for their protection we could use our votes as a leverage to keep everyone out of our goddamned business. It would help if we had an auxiliary economy but unfortunately we do not, because we suck.

 

@LeftCoastMom

 

Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. You do understand that this is precisely why any sensible, non-retarded Muslim hates liberals, right? The fact that they had such righteous indignation at the Bush wars while everything is hunky dory when Syria, Yemen, and Libya are ravaged under Obombem's watch. Br. Saintly Jinn already mentioned this point but I am surprised you even brought up Iraq. I done told you in the past that in retrospect, all that Iraq anti-war activism just proves how hypocritical and deceitful liberals in this country are.

 

I will never forget when that nuclear deal was first reached in Vienna, and TV's second most famous dyke - Rachel Maddow - came out and pounded her chest proclaiming that US sanctions forced Iran to the negotiating table. Aside from the fact that this is a fantastical narrative, it's a very war-like thing to say. "Yup... we forced them stankin' Eye-rabs to respect our authori-teh." It's something that someone like Maddow would have never said under a Bush presidency.

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14 minutes ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

@LeftCoastMom

 

Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. You do understand that this is precisely why any sensible, non-retarded Muslim hates liberals, right? The fact that they had such righteous indignation at the Bush wars while everything is hunky dory when Syria, Yemen, and Libya are ravaged under Obombem's watch. Br. Saintly Jinn already mentioned this point but I am surprised you even brought up Iraq. I done told you in the past that in retrospect, all that Iraq anti-war activism just proves how hypocritical and deceitful liberals in this country are.

 

I will never forget when that nuclear deal was first reached in Vienna, and TV's second most famous dyke - Rachel Maddow - came out and pounded her chest proclaiming that US sanctions forced Iran to the negotiating table. Aside from the fact that this is a fantastical narrative, it's a very war-like thing to say. "Yup... we forced them stankin' Eye-rabs to respect our authori-teh." It's something that someone like Maddow would have never said under a Bush presidency.

Why are you equating Rachel Maddow or even Obama with left leaning people who protested the war on Iraq?  Why do some of you insist on painting everyone on the left with the same brush? I just don't get it.  I am sure you don't appreciate this sort of childish labeling when it comes to criticisms of a certain subset of muslims so why the hypocrisy?

How many of the millions who protested the war on Iraq across the western world do you think would be or are fans of Rachel Maddow?  

We all know of the hypocrisy of the liberal establishment and their propaganda mouthpieces, i.e NYTimes and such, but to utterly discredit unprecedented anti-war protests in US history is ridiculous.

 

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39 minutes ago, King said:

Why are you equating Rachel Maddow or even Obama with left leaning people who protested the war on Iraq?  Why do some of you insist on painting everyone on the left with the same brush? I just don't get it.  I am sure you don't appreciate this sort of childish labeling when it comes to criticisms of a certain subset of muslims so why the hypocrisy?

How many of the millions who protested the war on Iraq across the western world do you think would be or are fans of Rachel Maddow?  

We all know of the hypocrisy of the liberal establishment and their propaganda mouthpieces, i.e NYTimes and such, but to utterly discredit unprecedented anti-war protests in US history is ridiculous.

 

While you are perhaps right that we should not generalize, I think the main issue is that some of us here feel like we've gotten stuck in the middle of a tug of war between the Left and the Right in the West, with each side generally just seeing us as ammo against the other. The Left, while not nearly as hostile as the Right, are not always consistent or trustworthy and will just as easily use us and abandon us if its suits their greater interests. The strange silence of many of the Left as Obama does or permits even more terrible things than Bush did, who couldn't do a single thing without a bunch of leftists holding huge demonstrations of how he was just scum is just one proof of the sometimes duplicitous nature of some of those on the Left who claim they're our friends. Also even among the sincere and trustworthy of the Left, there's still the issue of a serious difference in social and political values/goals, even between many Muslims like myself who like to think we're a bit more open-minded.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Saintly_Jinn23 said:

While you are perhaps right that we should not generalize, I think the main issue is that some of us here feel like we've gotten stuck in the middle of a tug of war between the Left and the Right in the West, with each side generally just seeing us as ammo against the other. The Left, while not nearly as hostile as the Right, are not always consistent or trustworthy and will just as easily use us and abandon us if its suits their greater interests. The strange silence of many of the Left as Obama does or permits even more terrible things than Bush did, who couldn't do a single thing without a bunch of leftists holding huge demonstrations of how he was just scum is just one proof of the sometimes duplicitous nature of some of those on the Left who claim they're our friends. Also even among the sincere and trustworthy of the Left, there's still the issue of a serious difference in social and political values/goals, even between many Muslims like myself who like to think we're a bit more open-minded.

 

 

Open minds have the quality of holding no prejudices nor generalizations. Many of your sentences have been overly absolute (maybe to shorten the length of your posts, but man...).

You criticize the Left as not being trustworthy. On which basis? Here in Europe the capitalist right has done nothing more than benefit their small circle of cockroaches which have been sucking our blood. Values? Which values? To the hell with values if they don't translate into real actions and social change. Don't forget that muslims are also citizens, it's not everything about religion. The goal of politics is not to build a theocracy (or what we think it resembles most in America or Europe). If there is any goal we should stick to, that would be the craving for social justice, and historically it has been the Left/Extreme Left who has defended it. The legalization of gay marriage or the normalization of homosexuality, contrary to your beliefs, is perfectly understandable as an act of social justice. Again, Freedom of Religion is a human right.

In the other hand, what has been the results of far Right to society? My blood boils when reading Owen Jones and recognizing that such fierce demonization of the lower classes (to which I belong to) is a fact nowadays.

It is not about comfort, or looking for protection in the Left. Can we, FOR ONCE, start thinking globally, out of our own interest?

As a side note, I am not socialist but anarchist. I don't see left governments as role models, but admire local social movements and the power of change they have.

Edited by Bakir

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9 hours ago, The Batman said:

You made me sound like I am in love with the right. I am neither in favour of the left or the right. 

Btw, how do you worship my God? Do you worship Allah or Jesus? Or both?

I'm a Christian. I have put forth my theological views in other places here. You are free to look them up. This thread is for discussing the shooting.

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14 hours ago, Saintly_Jinn23 said:

@LeftCoastMom

1. I never said you were white.

2. Of course you haven't been called a racist for wanting your children to marry native, cause you're not white. Again, you lack reading comprehension and skill with the English language and misread what I posted. If a white guy said he didn't want his daughter dating a black man because he wanted her to marry a white guy, it would be called racist. 

3. Anyone who says "this isn't the Middle Ages anymore" doesn't know anything about the Middle Ages.

4.  Anytime the government threatens you to pay taxes or go to jail, that's called extortion. Public schooling too is a joke in this country. It's hands down one of the absolute worst things I've ever seen and ever had to experience myself.

5. Again with the poor reading comprehension, the term I used was "Marxist sociology". While many leftists you speak of are "socialistic capitalist", modern leftism's social ideas are heavily influenced by the work of scholars of Frankfurt School of Social Research,  which sought to apply Marxist economic theory to ideas of social change while avoiding the extremities of political communism. A lot of sociology and gender studies professors are influenced by this school and it is often the ideas of this school that are influencing many young university students. And to answer your question, I actually respect the Black Panthers. As an organization they operated much like an efficient private company and helped African-Americans in such ways that made state programs like welfare and public schooling which were supposedly aimed at helping African-Americans look like a joke. They were also more of old school leftists who sought to wed the ideas of black nationalism to the ideas of Maoism, a far cry from today's hyper-PC campus Left.

Thanks for the insults. lol. I read your post just fine. Including between the lines.

1. I know you didn't call me white. I made my ethnicity known for a reason. You are lumping white people on the left together

2. If your assumption that the Left wanted " to eliminate races" through intermarriage was true, they'd be calling me a racist no matter what color I was. A white person saying they do not want their child marrying a black person in this country is considered racist because of the history of oppression and exclusion of blacks via miscegenation laws. It smacks of white supremacy. People who say that around here ARE usually white supremacists. However, If someone were to say " You know,I'd really like my daughter to marry another Irish descendant to preserve that culture in our family."..it's not considered racist. See if you can parse that.

3. That's a non-answer because you know the truth.

4. Usually if you don't pay your taxes ( taxes that we ourselves , as the "government", have imposed on ourselves ...and we just voted for more around here to help our schools...lol! Hardly extortion. Do Islamic states make you pay into any common fund? How do they support infrastructure? Is that extortion,too?) they will dock your pay if you make above a certain amount or seize your tax refund. Not too many people are sitting in jail for unpaid taxes. It's counter-productive.... if you think about it. 

The rest of your statement is purely subjective. Just because you had a bad experience in school ( so did I ...plenty of times) does not mean they do not do their job. My kids did fine. They also had problems with people. Still soldiered on and got those scholarships. ( Not all for " being native" either.) 

5. Lol. Conspiracy theory. Today's sociology and gender studies profs study a varied group of thinkers.

As far as hyper-PC...lol...you need to see what is happening on college campuses. Hardly PC anymore. And it's pretty diverse. Even on the " campus left".

 Glad you like the Panthers. I did,too, but your assessment of what they did making welfare and public schooling " look like a joke" is a bit hyperbolic, though I felt it was much-needed and Hope they rise again. And most of them were pretty damn Marxist,so you might want to ease up on your Marxist-bashing.  They used to crash in my living room when they came through sometimes and we had good conversations.

Have a great day.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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8 hours ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

 

 

@LeftCoastMom

 

Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. You do understand that this is precisely why any sensible, non-retarded Muslim hates liberals, right? The fact that they had such righteous indignation at the Bush wars while everything is hunky dory when Syria, Yemen, and Libya are ravaged under Obombem's watch. Br. Saintly Jinn already mentioned this point but I am surprised you even brought up Iraq. I done told you in the past that in retrospect, all that Iraq anti-war activism just proves how hypocritical and deceitful liberals in this country are.

 

 

You haven't been paying attention, dear.

Plenty of people on the Left opposed Obama on all those things. " Obombya" isn't a term the right flings around as much. Most of them enjoy bombing " Muzzie" nations until it starts to cost too much. 

You and Saintly Jinn keep talking in your corner. I have to go out and deal with the real world now.

PS...I don't give a tinkers darn about Rachel Maddow or any other talking head. This thing regarding Iran and "war " is stupid,too.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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8 hours ago, King said:

Why are you equating Rachel Maddow or even Obama with left leaning people who protested the war on Iraq?  Why do some of you insist on painting everyone on the left with the same brush? I just don't get it.  I am sure you don't appreciate this sort of childish labeling when it comes to criticisms of a certain subset of muslims so why the hypocrisy?

How many of the millions who protested the war on Iraq across the western world do you think would be or are fans of Rachel Maddow?  

We all know of the hypocrisy of the liberal establishment and their propaganda mouthpieces, i.e NYTimes and such, but to utterly discredit unprecedented anti-war protests in US history is ridiculous.

 

 

OK bro, then show me all the so-called good libbies protesting against what is going on in Syria or Yemen. Are they anywhere to be found?

 

Hell, do any of them even know that there is a war going on in Yemen?

 

I'm not talking about the liberal establishment only. Of course you are right that they are trash. They are the supreme trash. But even the more open-minded and wannabe leftist elements of the American liberal collective, are indifferent to the suffering of our people. And as we can see in this very topic, if we don't kowtow to them and heap praises and thanks upon them, they become indignant and pretend like they are owed something for something that happened over ten years ago and for which they have since proven their intentions to be self-serving.

 

I have a friend; I really love his attitude. He says he went to the polling station and voted Republican across the board. I asked him why. He said he wants more republicans to be voted in, in order for there to be a loggerjam in the state legislature so they can't pass anything. (We live in a blue state). I really commend his attitude. Why become a donkey for a class of people who don't really give a crud about us? It makes no sense to me. (FYI he's voting for Jill Stein in the presidential election)

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7 hours ago, Saintly_Jinn23 said:

While you are perhaps right that we should not generalize, I think the main issue is that some of us here feel like we've gotten stuck in the middle of a tug of war between the Left and the Right in the West, with each side generally just seeing us as ammo against the other. The Left, while not nearly as hostile as the Right, are not always consistent or trustworthy and will just as easily use us and abandon us if its suits their greater interests. The strange silence of many of the Left as Obama does or permits even more terrible things than Bush did, who couldn't do a single thing without a bunch of leftists holding huge demonstrations of how he was just scum is just one proof of the sometimes duplicitous nature of some of those on the Left who claim they're our friends. Also even among the sincere and trustworthy of the Left, there's still the issue of a serious difference in social and political values/goals, even between many Muslims like myself who like to think we're a bit more open-minded.

Who isn't stuck in this tug of war? The left and right political establishments use all ordinary citizens as ammo against each other, Muslims are not the sole victims of this, most people who took to the streets to demonstrate against the war are manipulated and abandoned all the same.

Muslims will obviously have a difference of opinion with people on the left on a whole host of issues, but it is wrong to assume that all people who take liberal values seriously are hypocrites and never sincere in their concern for muslims or their condemnation of state crimes.

38 minutes ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

OK bro, then show me all the so-called good libbies protesting against what is going on in Syria or Yemen. Are they anywhere to be found?

 

Hell, do any of them even know that there is a war going on in Yemen?

 

I'm not talking about the liberal establishment only. Of course you are right that they are trash. They are the supreme trash. But even the more open-minded and wannabe leftist elements of the American liberal collective, are indifferent to the suffering of our people. And as we can see in this very topic, if we don't kowtow to them and heap praises and thanks upon them, they become indignant and pretend like they are owed something for something that happened over ten years ago and for which they have since proven their intentions to be self-serving.

 

I have a friend; I really love his attitude. He says he went to the polling station and voted Republican across the board. I asked him why. He said he wants more republicans to be voted in, in order for there to be a loggerjam in the state legislature so they can't pass anything. (We live in a blue state). I really commend his attitude. Why become a donkey for a class of people who don't really give a crud about us? It makes no sense to me. (FYI he's voting for Jill Stein in the presidential election)

You have not seen huge demonstrations during Obama's tenure due to the nature of the conflicts, Iraq was an all out, unapologetic war of aggression. We are not talking proxies, NATO guises, arming rebels etc, there was a built up and it was a full fledged invasion based on seemingly bogus claims which people could easily rally against.  If Obama was to launch a similarly blatant war on Iran tomorrow, I am certain we would have millions on the streets again. Even so, despite the establishment propaganda and excuses, Obama's drone campaign and the war on terror for example have been heavily criticized by left leaning activists and human rights organizations, increasingly, so are Israeli atrocities.  These sort of criticisms do not get much coverage in the mainstream press for obvious reasons, so again, we have to be careful in distinguishing between the highly corporatized liberal media which restricts the debate along an extremely narrow spectrum and left leaning ordinary people who despise the so called 'liberal' establishment just as much as you do. Even though Obama has been worse than Bush on a host of foreign policy matters, sometimes people just aren't exposed to the right facts, as you mentioned, a lot of them wouldn't have any idea about what has transpired in Yemen.

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7 hours ago, Bakir said:

Open minds have the quality of holding no prejudices nor generalizations.

Having an open-mind just means willing to listen to and consider other arguments, it doesn't mean you don't hold your own personal views. I was of course saying that while I try to keep an open-mind with respect to other points of view, I have very little tolerance for much of the Left, whose ideas and intentions I think have been proven to be at best simply misguided and at worst downright despicable.

7 hours ago, Bakir said:

You criticize the Left as not being trustworthy. On which basis?

Well, for one the fact that the secular Left-wing throughout the 20th century was actually much more oppressive against Muslims than the Right has ever really been.

7 hours ago, Bakir said:

Here in Europe the capitalist right has done nothing more than benefit their small circle of cockroaches which have been sucking our blood.

Well, all I can say is that in America, the Muslim community has probably benefited far more from its values of free-enterprise than the European Muslims have benefited under quasi-socialist European countries. If there's one reason I remain suspicious of the Left, it is definitely their economic policies, never mind their social policies.

 

7 hours ago, Bakir said:

 The goal of politics is not to build a theocracy (or what we think it resembles most in America or Europe).

I never said anything about theocracy. All I was suggesting is that we as Muslims should be free to develop our own political spectrum with its own "left" "right" and whatever other directions are possible within it. This is not something we can do if we just become a branch of Western Left  or Right which cannot be expected to satisfy all the needs and desires of the Muslims sufficiently because they aren't principally Islamic movement. Whether it's the liberal anarchism of Ali Shariati, the Islamism of Sayid Qutb or Ayatollah Khomeini, the traditionalist anti-modernist views of Dr. Seyyed Hossein Nasr, or the middle ground economics of Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr, I think many Muslim thinkers have recognized before a need for Islam to develop its own systems of thought that while cognizant of Western developments, aren't simply branches of Western -isms.

 

7 hours ago, Bakir said:

If there is any goal we should stick to, that would be the craving for social justice, and historically it has been the Left/Extreme Left who has defended it.

While we Muslims believe in social justice, our basic idea of social justice fundamentally differs from that of the Left-wing as the left's idea of social justice is rooted in secular ideals of equality, while Islam's idea of social justice is rooted in the divine revelation and it's more spiritually aristocratic or meritocratic approach and which is also concerned not only with justice towards men but justice towards God above all else

7 hours ago, Bakir said:

The legalization of gay marriage or the normalization of homosexuality, contrary to your beliefs, is perfectly understandable as an act of social justice.

Maybe from a secular liberal standpoint, but not necessarily from an Islamic religious standpoint. And that's where the conflict comes in

7 hours ago, Bakir said:

In the other hand, what has been the results of far Right to society? My blood boils when reading Owen Jones and recognizing that such fierce demonization of the lower classes (to which I belong to) is a fact nowadays.

Of course I never have supported the Far-Right, but to act as though the Left has always been the friends of Muslims is just naive thinking. For starters, the Far-Left were downright tyrants to Islamic countries, far more controlling than even the colonial powers were. The moderate Left in the West today is mostly concerned with "social justice" and a more democratic socialist economic policy, but I would still say this does a lot more harm than good in the long run for us to the degree that it in general does harm to the whole country.

7 hours ago, Bakir said:

It is not about comfort, or looking for protection in the Left. Can we, FOR ONCE, start thinking globally, out of our own interest?

It's an issue of self-reliance and independence, i think. If we have to depend on the secular Left in the West to guarantee us all our rights or even to give us money to support ourselves through the state, I think that's a serious problem with very dangerous implications, as we've seen unfold in Europe with so many European Muslims totally and utterly dependent on the Left and on state programs. The Muslim community in America, on the other hand, is much more self-sufficient

7 hours ago, Bakir said:

As a side note, I am not socialist but anarchist. I don't see left governments as role models, but admire local social movements and the power of change they have.

The only difference I think between you and I here I think is that I don't think left-wing social movements,generally speaking, create any real change because the principles upon which the contemporary left-wing idea of social justice is built on are just plain flawed, and if your foundation isn't right, then no matter how pretty the structure is, it is woefully unstable and dangerous.

 

 

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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55 minutes ago, Saintly_Jinn23 said:

Having an open-mind just means willing to listen to and consider other arguments, it doesn't mean you don't hold your own personal views. I was of course saying that while I try to keep an open-mind with respect to other points of view, I have very little tolerance for much of the Left, whose ideas and intentions I think have been proven to be at best simply misguided and at worst downright despicable.

Well, for one the fact that the secular Left-wing throughout the 20th century was actually much more oppressive against Muslims than the Right has ever really been.

Well, all I can say is that in America, the Muslim community has probably benefited far more from its values of free-enterprise than the European Muslims have benefited under quasi-socialist European countries. If there's one reason I remain suspicious of the Left, it is definitely their economic policies, never mind their social policies.

 

I never said anything about theocracy. All I was suggesting is that we as Muslims should be free to develop our own political spectrum with its own "left" "right" and whatever other directions are possible within it. This is not something we can do if we just become a branch of Western Left  or Right which cannot be expected to satisfy all the needs and desires of the Muslims sufficiently because they aren't principally Islamic movement. Whether it's the liberal anarchism of Ali Shariati, the Islamism of Sayid Qutb or Ayatollah Khomeini, the traditionalist anti-modernist views of Dr. Seyyed Hossein Nasr, or the middle ground economics of Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr, I think many Muslim thinkers have recognized before a need for Islam to develop its own systems of thought that while cognizant of Western developments, aren't simply branches of Western -isms.

 

While we Muslims believe in social justice, our basic idea of social justice fundamentally differs from that of the Left-wing as the left's idea of social justice is rooted in secular ideals of equality, while Islam's idea of social justice is rooted in the divine revelation and it's more spiritually aristocratic or meritocratic approach and which is also concerned not only with justice towards men but justice towards God above all else

Maybe from a secular liberal standpoint, but not necessarily from an Islamic religious standpoint. And that's where the conflict comes in

Of course I never have supported the Far-Right, but to act as though the Left has always been the friends of Muslims is just naive thinking. For starters, the Far-Left were downright tyrants to Islamic countries, far more controlling than even the colonial powers were. The moderate Left in the West today is mostly concerned with "social justice" and a more democratic socialist economic policy, but I would still say this does a lot more harm than good in the long run for us to the degree that it in general does harm to the whole country.

It's an issue of self-reliance and independence, i think. If we have to depend on the secular Left in the West to guarantee us all our rights or even to give us money to support ourselves through the state, I think that's a serious problem with very dangerous implications, as we've seen unfold in Europe with so many European Muslims totally and utterly dependent on the Left and on state programs. The Muslim community in America, on the other hand, is much more self-sufficient

The only difference I think between you and I here I think is that I don't think left-wing social movements,generally speaking, create any real change because the principles upon which the contemporary left-wing idea of social justice is built on are just plain flawed, and if your foundation isn't right, then no matter how pretty the structure is, it is woefully unstable and dangerous.

 

 

We hold different views and motivations it seems, but I can't say you haven't justified your ideas properly, even though I disagree with the content.

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22 hours ago, It's me hello said:

Well, this was supposed to be about how people view us. People dying in Syria and Iraq is never on the news, therefore most people don't care. (I mean Americans/Westerners)

 I wanted to see how this would effect people, I care for the people in Syria in Iraq, BUT since we live here I wanted to start a discussion about how it is going to affect us.

Whats the point of discussing something that is obvious?

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14 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

:salam:

Orlando Shooter Was Reportedly a Regular at Pulse and Had a Profile on Gay Dating App

But according to witnesses, Mateen was also a regular at the club and exchanged messages with at least one gay man on a gay dating app.

http://gawker.com/orlando-shooter-was-reportedly-a-regular-at-pulse-and-h-1781920316

Deal with this Tawheed313 and close the door on yourself.

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1 hour ago, IbnSina said:

Whats the point of discussing something that is obvious?

Because if we don't, the westerners will say we don't care enough to discuss it.  Not that I support that entirely, I'm not quite sure where to stand.  It's going to be tough times for us muslims in the days to come.  I've read now that it's confirmed the shooter, Mateen, was also homosexual himself.  Which to me is something that should also be addressed as Islam progresses through 21st century where western Ideals prevail. 

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22 hours ago, Saintly_Jinn23 said:

The only thing I ever worry about is we Muslims can sometimes think everything is a conspiracy against Islam by outsiders because we'd rather not believe people who claim to be Muslims could do such a thing, that we sometimes ignore remedying real problems.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.  Eventually, we have to come to reconcile our problems with the wisdom Allah SWT granted us.  We desperately fight in the West and US to say these terrorists are fundamentally not muslim in anyway shape or form, which doesn't solve the problem; we're basing this assumption on a notion that a real muslim whose learned in their faith has read their holy book front to back and understood at least a good portion of it, would never commit these acts. 

Quran 4:16 :  If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and mend, Leave them alone (do not annoy them in other words after they were punished); for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

Recognizing social/psychological/political factors influencing these individuals to commit abhorrent acts of violence, and then dealing with them is much more effective approach.  And then we must convey to the West that these are the same factors plaguing their own kind when non-muslims go on shooting sprees committing mass killing, and that we're not all that different from each other. 

Edited by wmehar2

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3 hours ago, Convertible said:

Deal with this Tawheed313 and close the door on yourself.

I just want to say forgive me, totally misunderstood your comments.

I was trying to add in the Gifs to also reduce the tension in this thread. 

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7 hours ago, Tawheed313 said:

I just want to say forgive me, totally misunderstood your comments.

I was trying to add in the Gifs to also reduce the tension in this thread. 

All is well, Brother!

It's a shame that Omar Mateen had such a deep-seated self-hatred that drove him to kill innocent people. It is also a shame that religious traditions condemn gay people to the point of self-loathing and hatred. Muslims need to figure out a healthy way to deal with a very real phenomenon. Whether a person being gay is right or wrong doesn't matter because the reality is that homosexuality exists all over the world including predominantly Muslim countries. What matters is how we deal with it. Do we teach self-hatred or do we love these children of God?

No matter how anyone feels about homosexuality, it is a reality of life across the globe.

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While acknowledging he didn’t know Mateen well, Van Horn said: “I think it’s possible that he was trying to deal with his inner demons, of trying to get rid of his anger of homosexuality.”

<.< 

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/

So it is ok to say gay people got inner demons?

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1 hour ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

While acknowledging he didn’t know Mateen well, Van Horn said: “I think it’s possible that he was trying to deal with his inner demons, of trying to get rid of his anger of homosexuality.”

<.< 

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/

So it is ok to say gay people got inner demons?

We all have got our own demons and we have to stick to Allah and benefit from the discipline of religion to keep going.

However, I think he was referring to Mateen's self hatred as a gay man. When I first heard about the event, me and my friends took for granted he was a repressed gay. I didn't expect though that he was actually trying to overcome this hatred by going to gay bars and those places. If any, those places may just increase your dislike to homosexuals because, as it happens in their heterosexual counterparts, they are filled with superficial and materialistic behaviours that have nothing to do with what a gay or straight person may actually be looking for.

Doing it in the name of ISIS is definitely weird, though.

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