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Jafar moh

Were the apostles of Jesus infallible?

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Quick question: I was wondering in all christian, catholic, and islamic idealogy-- were the apostles of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) infallible? 

I've noticed one thing- In christianity, they do not believe in saints or the apostles as saints, which means they are not infallible. Therefore, would they not be subject to subjective and/or accidental human error? ( and also subject to sin )

In catholicism, they believe in saints so therefore I think it holds for their belief to say that the apostles words were correct as a saint is someone who is infallible, and someone who is infallible should have the knowledge of not committing subjective error, as an infallible should not make error at all.

( correct me if im wrong-- i do not know if catholics even belief in the infallibility of saints, so my question still stands anyway - could they have been or were they?

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Why do we care about the false positions of their false religion ? All imams are infallible be it the imams that proceded Prophet Jesus (as) or be it prophet Musa (as) or be it Prophet Muhammad (saa).

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34 minutes ago, Al Amir said:

Why do we care about the false positions of their false religion ? All imams are infallible be it the imams that proceded Prophet Jesus (as) or be it prophet Musa (as) or be it Prophet Muhammad (saa).

It is not a false religion so it's best not to call it one. My question was more aiming to figure out more about christian-catholic similarities and differences 

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Well, Catholics are Christians so that's a bit like me saying " What do Muslims think about this ? Now what do the Shia think about this?"

Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestant Christians recognise a formal set of saints. There are saints that are canonized ( formally recognized by the Church for one reason or another) and ,since anyone who enters heaven is technically a saint, there are legions of saints who are unknown except to their loved ones, but exist just as powerfully and authentically as any Apostle. 

No saint is infallible. No one is considered infallible except Jesus.

Some Protestants feel you are a saint while you are still alive by dint of being saved by belief in Christ. There have been a couple of conversations about that between myself and them. As a Catholic, I can't say that because Catholics do not believe salvation is automatic even if serious sins are committed, so I can't say for sure I'll get into heaven....ergo, I'm not a saint until I do. But neither I nor the folks who think they are in some sort of sainthood already would say they are infallible or that any saint is.

Hope this helps.

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3 hours ago, Al Amir said:

Why do we care about the false positions of their false religion ? All imams are infallible be it the imams that proceded Prophet Jesus (as) or be it prophet Musa (as) or be it Prophet Muhammad (saa).

Because this part of the forum is for dialogue between the faiths.

And Jafar wants to dialogue.

Maybe he is just curious and wants to know things.

Like I would like to know about how to be helpful to your brand new Muslim family member because he has to have Ramadan at your house because he and your daughter had to move back in with you because the place that they were supposed to have up near the college wasn't ready like it was supposed to be due to the fact that it looked like someone had raised a herd of wild kangaroos in it for about a decade and there was no flipping way I was going to let my baby or SG's mommy's baby live in that dump with things skittering in the walls because they would get tetanus, rabies, the Black Plague or maybe all three and I would never forgive myself and besides what in the heck would I tell his mother ...that I let them both die a horrible death when they were only a few miles away and I could have prevented it so now I have to figure out how to make things nice for him in a Christian home because right now he has no place else to go. See?

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55 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Well, Catholics are Christians so that's a bit like me saying " What do Muslims think about this ? Now what do the Shia think about this?"

Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestant Christians recognise a formal set of saints. There are saints that are canonized ( formally recognized by the Church for one reason or another) and ,since anyone who enters heaven is technically a saint, there are legions of saints who are unknown except to their loved ones, but exist just as powerfully and authentically as any Apostle. 

No saint is infallible. No one is considered infallible except Jesus.

Some Protestants feel you are a saint while you are still alive by dint of being saved by belief in Christ. There have been a couple of conversations about that between myself and them. As a Catholic, I can't say that because Catholics do not believe salvation is automatic even if serious sins are committed, so I can't say for sure I'll get into heaven....ergo, I'm not a saint until I do. But neither I nor the folks who think they are in some sort of sainthood already would say they are infallible or that any saint is.

Hope this helps.

Thank you, you always seem to inform me with information I can always ponder on, and it is very appreciative.

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7 minutes ago, andres said:

No humans are infallible, the prophets included. 

I feel like if we can agree that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was infallible -- who is the saviour of man, redeemer of the revelation , the messenger of God and the carrier of scripture  --- we can also agree that Prophet Moses (pbuh) and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) are also infallible as they carry these same characteristics?

 

( or are you arguing that Jesus wasn't infallible either ? ) 

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5 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

What do you understand by the term infallible?

That they are just like you and me. They make mistakes commit sins and theu have got human feelings and intellect. 

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6 hours ago, Jafar moh said:

I feel like if we can agree that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was infallible -- who is the saviour of man, redeemer of the revelation , the messenger of God and the carrier of scripture  --- we can also agree that Prophet Moses (pbuh) and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) are also infallible as they carry these same characteristics?

 

( or are you arguing that Jesus wasn't infallible either ? ) 

Jesus is divine and infallible. Muhammed and Moses were humans like you and me.

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7 minutes ago, andres said:

That they are just like you and me. They make mistakes commit sins and theu have got human feelings and intellect. 

I don't necessarily think you fully understand what infallible means. Robot's are not infallible, despite them having no human feelings and intellect.. or sin? 

What I think is that an infallible is a person who has the ability to commit sin, but does not-- due to any circumstance. ( either it be the prophets,the 12 successors of the prophet OR an apostle of Jesus). The reason I asked was because Jesus appointed these men as his disciples in order to spread the word of God as well-- right? Judas was an apostle but as you know, he betrayed Jesus and thereby rendered his words and actions invalid-- so Judas was not infallible. However, would you not like to believe apostles (or saints) of Jesus like Paul, Mark, Peter, etc, were infallible? The entire bible consists of their eye-witness and/or general historical accounts of Jesus and that time, so in order to accept the bible would we have to look at them as NOT sinless, but infallible beings so that their accounts will be valid in all accords? I still consider them humans, creations of God, and subject to human errors like sin and deception, but were they deceived? did they commit a sin during their apostle-hood? An infallible wouldn't have been.

The same goes for the prophets of God -- since they were chosen as prophets to spread the revelation and word of God, they would have to have been infallible, in order for their words to stay true, affirmative with God, and valid right? Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, and the apostles all are consisting of human flesh with blood circulating through their veins as well as us.

--- i am not refuting so I hope you aren't treating it like this.

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Hi Jafar Moh,

 

Quote: Quick question: I was wondering in all christian, catholic, and islamic idealogy-- were the apostles of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) infallible?

 

Response, --- Quick answer, "No."

--- The Scripture says, "There is none righteous, no not one," Romans 3:10. --- "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23.

--- The Apostles became righteous after they surrendered their lives to God and lived by Faith, and were guided by the Holy Spirit, --- but having their sinful nature, they could sin, as Satan is always tempting believers. (He is our enemy, and not other people.) --- Christians never BECOME infallible.

 

I would like to ask LeftCoastMom about this:

--- We have been told that the Catholic Pope is infallible, so I discussed that with someone, and this was the reply. "The Pope is a person that is chosen to that high office by men, but he represents the highest leadership in the Church." --- When the Cardinals and the highest order of influence, make a decision, and the Pope makes the decree public, --- people might say. "The Pope has spoken, and he is infallible." --- The way it was explained is that what the Pope said is 'the infallible word of the Pope,' and is a decree to the people. --- So the decree was decided by the leadership, including the Pope, beforehand, and the Pope delivered it. --- In this way the Catholic Church can 'speak to the people through the Pope,' and what he says becomes the law. --- So, it is not the man, but the message delivered through him, that is considered infallible. --- Is that right?

 

Concerning the Imams being infallible, there are other Muslim groups that don't accept the infallibility of the Shiite Imams, --- Is that not right?

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1 hour ago, placid said:

 

--- The Apostles became righteous after they surrendered their lives to God and lived by Faith, and were guided by the Holy Spirit, --- but having their sinful nature, they could sin, as Satan is always tempting believers. (He is our enemy, and not other people.) --- Christians never BECOME infallible.

 

Hello placid, thanks for giving us your take.

But I thought this quote was the definition of infallible? At least that's what I consider someone who is infallible to be. "The apostles became rightous after surrendering their lives-- yet as humans are sinful in nature, they could sin. " the same way the Imams and successors of the Prophet surrendered their lives to reiterate the teachings of the prophet and keep a guide for the people-- provided they are human and sinful in nature, they could sin as well. 

 

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Yes, --- everyone in a flesh and blood body has a sinful nature.

So that would include the Pope, Prophets, Saints, and Imams, would it not?

Anyway it is a good discussion and I like to read what others think.

--- One caution, --- Andres is a critic and is a false teacher. He doesn't use the Scriptures, but just speaks 'off the top of his head,' and what he has learned from other critics.

 

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4 hours ago, placid said:

 

 

I would like to ask LeftCoastMom about this:

--- We have been told that the Catholic Pope is infallible, so I discussed that with someone, and this was the reply. "The Pope is a person that is chosen to that high office by men, but he represents the highest leadership in the Church." --- When the Cardinals and the highest order of influence, make a decision, and the Pope makes the decree public, --- people might say. "The Pope has spoken, and he is infallible." --- The way it was explained is that what the Pope said is 'the infallible word of the Pope,' and is a decree to the people. --- So the decree was decided by the leadership, including the Pope, beforehand, and the Pope delivered it. --- In this way the Catholic Church can 'speak to the people through the Pope,' and what he says becomes the law. --- So, it is not the man, but the message delivered through him, that is considered infallible. --- Is that right?

 

Well, partly....papal infallibility is an interesting doctrine, only formally promulgated in 1870 at Vatican I. It had history back much farther, but was also very contested. One German bishop supposedly said " This is nuts, Your Holiness!"

However, the doctrine is interpreted extremely narrowly.

The Pope is only infallible when he is speaking formally "ex cathedra" on a point of Catholic doctrine that needs to be addressed by the Church. ( It must not contradict any Scripture or Tradition). In fact, there is a ton of protocol and requirements for an " ex cathedral" event, so these  instances are extremely rare and many Popes never make any such statements or have the need to.

If the Pope simply gives an opinion on something, it's just that, like anyone else's.

 

 Both a Pope and an Ecumenical Council of Bishops can make " infallible' decrees,but you are correct in that all the processes are communal , considered a way that the Holy Spirit works within the Church, and usually any decree comes after years or even centuries of theological debate.

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6 hours ago, Jafar moh said:

I don't necessarily think you fully understand what infallible means. Robot's are not infallible, despite them having no human feelings and intellect.. or sin? 

What I think is that an infallible is a person who has the ability to commit sin, but does not-- due to any circumstance. ( either it be the prophets,the 12 successors of the prophet OR an apostle of Jesus). The reason I asked was because Jesus appointed these men as his disciples in order to spread the word of God as well-- right? Judas was an apostle but as you know, he betrayed Jesus and thereby rendered his words and actions invalid-- so Judas was not infallible. However, would you not like to believe apostles (or saints) of Jesus like Paul, Mark, Peter, etc, were infallible? The entire bible consists of their eye-witness and/or general historical accounts of Jesus and that time, so in order to accept the bible would we have to look at them as NOT sinless, but infallible beings so that their accounts will be valid in all accords? I still consider them humans, creations of God, and subject to human errors like sin and deception, but were they deceived? did they commit a sin during their apostle-hood? An infallible wouldn't have been.

The same goes for the prophets of God -- since they were chosen as prophets to spread the revelation and word of God, they would have to have been infallible, in order for their words to stay true, affirmative with God, and valid right? Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, and the apostles all are consisting of human flesh with blood circulating through their veins as well as us.

--- i am not refuting so I hope you aren't treating it like this.

That is an interesting take on infallibility. Thanks for sharing... I will have to think about that. I don't think I really understand how you look upon your prophet  or imams, therefore I won't say anything about that. 

Christians respect and revere the Apostles and early disciples of Jesus, but I think it would be fair to say that we think of them as plain old humans like ourselves...capable of regular mistakes and sins. They are saved by their faith in Christ and following his way like any other Christian. Their difference  from us is only their proximity to the Christ event.  We don't consider the Holy Spirit to need infallible people to transmit the Gospel message after Jesus.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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2 hours ago, placid said:

 

--- One caution, --- Andres is a critic and is a false teacher. He doesn't use the Scriptures, but just speaks 'off the top of his head,' and what he has learned from other critics.

I am not a teacher, or expert. I just give my opinion and I dont care if you like it or not. I normally do not read your endless posts, but I have found out that you believe that the Quran and the Bible both contain Gods perfect word. Since I have found out they cant be,  I actually do understand how you feel about me.

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6 hours ago, Jafar moh said:

I don't necessarily think you fully understand what infallible means. Robot's are not infallible, despite them having no human feelings and intellect.. or sin? 

What I think is that an infallible is a person who has the ability to commit sin, but does not-- due to any circumstance. ( either it be the prophets,the 12 successors of the prophet OR an apostle of Jesus). The reason I asked was because Jesus appointed these men as his disciples in order to spread the word of God as well-- right? Judas was an apostle but as you know, he betrayed Jesus and thereby rendered his words and actions invalid-- so Judas was not infallible. However, would you not like to believe apostles (or saints) of Jesus like Paul, Mark, Peter, etc, were infallible? The entire bible consists of their eye-witness and/or general historical accounts of Jesus and that time, so in order to accept the bible would we have to look at them as NOT sinless, but infallible beings so that their accounts will be valid in all accords? I still consider them humans, creations of God, and subject to human errors like sin and deception, but were they deceived? did they commit a sin during their apostle-hood? An infallible wouldn't have been.

The same goes for the prophets of God -- since they were chosen as prophets to spread the revelation and word of God, they would have to have been infallible, in order for their words to stay true, affirmative with God, and valid right? Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, and the apostles all are consisting of human flesh with blood circulating through their veins as well as us.

--- i am not refuting so I hope you aren't treating it like this.

English is not my native language, but O have translated it to mean "free of errors". Jesus is in my opinion a divine being. Just as I cannot define what being God is, I cannot say what being Jesus is, but I am convinced they both are unfallible, unlike Moses, the disciples, the pope, Muhammed and you and me.

God did not write the Quran and the Bible, humans did. Humans are not infallible, and so are not the Books either. Had God written a book for all humanity, we had not been divided into Shia,Sunni, Catholic, Lutheran...and all other religions.

I may be wrong, but this is my conviction.

Edited by andres

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7 minutes ago, andres said:

English is not my native language, but O have translated it to mean "free of errors". Jesus is in my opinion a divine being. Just as I cannot define what being God is, I cannot say what being Jesus is, but I am convinced they both are unfallible, unlike Moses, the disciples, the pope, Muhammed and you and me.

God did not write the Quran and the Bible, humans did. Humans are not infallible, and so is not the Books. 

Thanks but this is where we differ. We believe the Quran, the 'tawrat' (Torah or OT), and the 'injil' (bible) were all from God. Jesus was sent a scripture, Just like Moses, just like Muhammed. (pbuta) . However the nature of this scripture (bible, and even it's whereabouts) is undeterminable, therefore we are left with our gospel accounts (nt) which as we deduced from the thread " Mark 16: 9-20 verses " may have complications, but nonetheless must be considered as It is technically scriptures-- the ones we can at least use today. 

I think it would be beneficial for you to read the quran more, as well as the bible, as you will see many similarities regarding their context. Placid has a very good nature of doing this, so even reading some of Placid's comments will help you better understand this subject.

Back to the question-- I don't think infallibility means free of error. Muhammed, Jesus, Moses, and the apostles were all equally subject to error. But did they commit? I'm not confident this definition is 100% accurate but it seems very likely that this is how infallibility is determined on human beings. I think Jesus is infallible because he was given revelation at early times, therefore the need for him to be free of sin would be necessary in order his revelations are carried out God's way. I am not saying he was sinless, but did he sin? 

Infallibility: The attribute given to those who are able to sin, but do not.  --( own personal definition )

------------- in all cases we are extending the answer for this thread a little more then it needs to be haha. I only wanted a quick clarification and LeftCoastMom and Placid did that nicely.

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51 minutes ago, andres said:

English is not my native language, but O have translated it to mean "free of errors". Jesus is in my opinion a divine being. Just as I cannot define what being God is, I cannot say what being Jesus is, but I am convinced they both are unfallible, unlike Moses, the disciples, the pope, Muhammed and you and me.

God did not write the Quran and the Bible, humans did. Humans are not infallible, and so are not the Books either. Had God written a book for all humanity, we had not been divided into Shia,Sunni, Catholic, Lutheran...and all other religions.

I may be wrong, but this is my conviction.

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.  (5:48) 

The beautiful thing about this verse is that it agrees with you. Therefore, the quran actually tells you to " judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed- " and here it is speaking to the people of the scripture ( to the christians in the time of Jesus christ when he had the divine scripture). If this does not show you anything, at least accept the fact that even in Islam, scripture relations are always important for growth. Again, Placid is an expert in this field and you can message him on the subject of Bible-Quran relations and differences.

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Hi Jafar moh

I think I already made my view clear. No human is without sin, the 12 disciples included. Only Jesus never sinned. But Jesus is divine. This is Christian belief. 

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5 minutes ago, andres said:

Hi Jafar moh

I think I already made my view clear. No human is without sin, the 12 disciples included. Only Jesus never sinned. But Jesus is divine. This is Christian belief. 

okay lol. I am not refuting this.. I am just extending a definition which may or may not be accurate, its just how I viewed it, i did not say it was right. great, thanks for contributing to the topic. have a good day!

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4 hours ago, andres said:

Hi Jafar moh

I think I already made my view clear. No human is without sin, the 12 disciples included. Only Jesus never sinned. But Jesus is divine. This is Christian belief. 

So you think the previous Prophets such as Moses, May God bless him, was a sinner?

Also was Jesus, may God bless him, a human?

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Hi Andres,

 

Quote: I am not a teacher, or expert. I just give my opinion and I dont care if you like it or not. I normally do not read your endless posts, but I have found out that you believe that the Quran and the Bible both contain Gods perfect word. Since I have found out they cant be, I actually do understand how you feel about me.

 

Response: --- Quote: "You believe that the Quran and the Bible both contain Gods perfect word."

--- You said it right this time, that they CONTAIN God's perfect word. --- But other places you put it differently, as though we are saying the Bible and Quran 'ARE GOD'S PERFECT WORD.' --- Therefore you say that everything isn't perfect, so you reject it all as God's message to mankind, --- and in so doing you are rejecting God.

--- The Proof of the accuracy of the Bible is 'Prophecy and Fulfillment.' --- The Apostle Peter said, in his second letter, 2 Peter 1:

16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. (Matthew 17)

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

--- Do you understand that? --- But men, DEDICATED TO GOD'S SERVICE, SPOKE (or wrote) AS THEY WERE MOVED (or inspired) BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

--- The OT Prophets were 'filled with the Holy Spirit' when they gave the Prophecies, --- Isaiah prophesied over 700 years before it happened, in Isaiah 7:

14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a Sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son."

 

And the fulfillment came when Gabriel visited Mary in Luke 1:

30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.

34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."

--- Notice: --- It doesn't say Jesus WAS THE SON OF GOD, --- but that He would be 'CALLED' the Son of God.

Since Jesus was 'indwelt' by the Word, John 1:14, and Surah 3:45, (the Word, who was with God in the beginning, John 1:1), --- then the Word could 'speak through Jesus' as the voice of God. --- So what Jesus said was true, because it was the Message of God, delivered by the Word, through God's holy vessel, Jesus.

Jesus was called a holy, or righteous son, in Surah 19:

19 He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."

 

Now I will show you why you are a false teacher. --- On the topic of Mark 16:9-20, you said,

Quote: The three verses Qa'im refers is no contradiction, it is just not very believable for the reasons given. The same reasons as for the Virgin birth, a myth that the Quran inherited.

Giving your opinion against Scripture is 'false teaching,' --- so here you are saying:

 

--- "The same reasons as for the Virgin birth, a myth that the Quran inherited."

In saying that, --- you discredit Isaiah, and the Redeemer of mankind being born of a virgin, so without sin. --- You discredit the Holy Spirit working through spiritual men, you discredit the angel Gabriel in the Gospel of Matthew, and the birth story in Luke 1, again in Surah 19, and Surah 3, --- and you discredit the Quran as though it is made up of myths and fables.

 

Then you say, Quote, "I may be wrong, but this is my conviction."

--- Whereas, you should say, "As an unbeliever of the Scriptures, this is my opinion."

 

As Muslims say, "Everything should be confirmed by the Quran." --- And the Quran confirms the Former Scriptures as true, --- so I always try to give verses from each, the Bible and the Quran, to at least let readers know what is written, whether they believe it or not, is up to them.

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On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 3:17 AM, Al Amir said:

Why do we care about the false positions of their false religion ? All imams are infallible be it the imams that proceded Prophet Jesus (as) or be it prophet Musa (as) or be it Prophet Muhammad (saa).

Could you please give me reference?

Peace and God bless you

Edited by sefket83

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9 minutes ago, sefket83 said:

Could you please give me reference?

Peace and God bless you

Imams are proceeders of prophets and protectors of the revelation they receive.Thus obidience is required from us to them,and obedience to someone who is fallible is illogical.

Edited by Al Amir

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17 hours ago, andres said:

I am not a teacher, or expert. I just give my opinion and I dont care if you like it or not. I normally do not read your endless posts, but I have found out that you believe that the Quran and the Bible both contain Gods perfect word. Since I have found out they cant be,  I actually do understand how you feel about me.

Ok interesting view of yours. I have a set of politicans they set rules here in Sweden we all obey them. ☺

Peace and many blessings

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6 minutes ago, sefket83 said:

Ok interesting view of yours. I have a set of politicans they set rules here in Sweden we all obey them. ☺

Peace and many blessings

but you are nor required to obey them a citizen either voluntarily obeys the laws of a country or is forced to do so.

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The other false teaching of Andres, is concerning this topic. --- The question was, "Were the Apostles of Jesus infallible? --- Expecting perhaps a positive answer.

--- But the chosen ones for the preaching of the Gospel were sinful men who were converted, and went on to be 'filled with the Holy Spirit,' and preach the Gospel Message to the world.

--- By the inspiration of God they wrote the Gospel accounts which were directed to different people groups, Matthew to the Jews, Mark to the Romans, Luke to the Greeks, --- and John, written later as a general Gospel account for all people. --- But they were all there when it happened, and Matthew wrote an first Gospel in Aramaic.

 

Quote from Andres: I do not doubt that the Gospel writers believed in what they wrote. But since no human is infallible there can be details that are not entirely correct. I see the gospel writers as sort of journalists reporting what they have heard from the first generation of Christians.

--- You see, he denies that the Gospel writers were the Apostles and disciples that walked with Jesus and recorded events as they happened, --- but he says 'they heard it second hand' from 'the first generation.'

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10 minutes ago, Al Amir said:

but you are nor required to obey them a citizen either voluntarily obeys the laws of a country or is forced to do so.

Yes I try to obey them because God wants it. Many Muslims says obey the laws of your country. :) If I must kiss the hand of a priest I am kissing my lovely lords hand thru him.

Edited by sefket83

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6 minutes ago, sefket83 said:

Yes I try to obey them because God wants it. Many Muslims says obey the laws of your country. 

You are under no obligation to obey man made laws under any circumstances

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On 6/9/2016 at 7:14 PM, Jafar moh said:

Quick question: I was wondering in all christian, catholic, and islamic idealogy-- were the apostles of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) infallible?

Salam Jafar Moh,

Awesome question.

No, the apostles of Jesus Christ are not infallible.

Jesus Christ rebuked them many times. The important thing though is that they repented, and when they received God's gift of His Spirit, the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised them (John 14-16; Acts 2), they boldly testified about Jesus. The Holy Spirit is infallible.

Quote

I've noticed one thing- In christianity, they do not believe in saints or the apostles as saints, which means they are not infallible. Therefore, would they not be subject to subjective and/or accidental human error? ( and also subject to sin )

Most Christians, when thinking of human error and the apostles, remember how Peter denied Jesus Christ 3 times (Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, John 18),yet he repented and Jesus forgave him. When Jesus Christ rose from the dead, he asked Peter if he loves him 3 times (John 21) which is interesting.

Peace and God bless you

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9 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

So you think the previous Prophets such as Moses, May God bless him, was a sinner?

Also was Jesus, may God bless him, a human?

I have already answered this more than once. Scroll back.

 

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