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In the Name of God بسم الله

Islam promotes violence?

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  • Advanced Member

Al Salam alikum ,

I wanted to start a debate here , because I need the answers to be helpful and knowledgable ,

 

I have a cousin whom after 30 years of pious religious beliefs  reverted to atheism .

I debated some of his ranting on his Facebook page then gave up but this person's mother who is a relative called me and cried asking me to please keep talking to him .

in my heart I feel it's a lost cause . But for her I promised to try . I am not very knowledgeable I do not have a strong data base .

I need help so please unlike past posts do not ask me to spit in his face or ignore or leave him be , I want whatever resources readers here have or if they know someone with powerful debate capability to let me know .

 

here is one of the things I need help with copied from his post since he believe Islam promotes hate and violence :

""This does not contradict my saying .. Quran preaches hate for others ... Especially jews , and that's why Mohammad kicked and killed the Jews some 1400 years ago and that's why you can't tolerate putting the Jewish star next to the cross and the Hilal in your profile picture 
Moslems are killing each other For the same reason imam Ali fought with Aisha ... Absence of common sense and hatred .. Mohammad used to kill people who say Poetry against him as ka2eb ibn al ashraf and Al Nadr bin Al Harth. He killed them because he could no tolerate their poems , so to start with , there is no islamic tolerance , On top of that , Islam promises those who kill infidels that they are going to heavens and F virgins there ... Anger+ Hate + indoctrination + murderous role models+ virgins+ poverty = suicide bombing ..""

He uses ayat about wars as back up and the way on the Jews and Kuraish .

 

 

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The Qur’an states in 3:7 that there are two kinds/types of verses, [1].  That’s why we need to  follow the Tradition of the Two Weighty Things (thaqalayn) [2], & [3].  Conduct of the one we are instructed to follow is contrary to what you are implying. And if the successor is of this calibre, you can imagine the conduct of Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp].

You can google “ constitution of Medina”, In wartime, if the constitution/Treaty is violated, its Treason.

Qur’an was revealed over 23 years, If anyone just quotes random verse, you need to look at the context, what’s the history behind it, when and why it was revealed. Usually, looking at verses before and after, may clarify the meaning.

*****

[1]

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

[2]

Tradition of the Two Weighty Things (thaqalayn)

The Messenger of Allah declared:

"It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere to them both,  you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my Progeny, that is my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."

[3]

The well-known and reliable hadith of the Prophet Muhammad [pbuhahp] -

"I am the city of knowledge and 'Ali is its gate"

The Prophet Muhammad [pbuhahp] said.

"For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings

[4]

“since they are of two kinds, either your brother in religion or one like you in creation”

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-53-order-malik-al-ashtar

[5]

The Voice of Human Justice.Chapter: U.N.CHARTER OF HUMAN RIGHTS

English translation of Sautu'l `Adalati'l Insaniyab, the biography of the Imam, written in

Arabic by George Jordac, a renowned Christian author of lebanon.

https://www.al-islam.org/voice-human-justice-sautul-adalatil-insaniyah-george-jordac/un-charter-human-rights

[6]

United Nations DP Report: Page 82 [Box 5.6] & Imam Ali bin abi Taleb: on governance 107 [Box 7.3].

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Reports/CompleteEnglish.pdf

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.
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Salam

We are against the Wahhabi extremists as well. We strongly condemn their deeds, e. g. suicide attacks.

It is reasonable and wise to fight back your enemies lest you perish. Islam did so.

In the meantime, Islam permits Muslims to maintain good ties with non-enemies:

لَّا يَنْهَاكُمُ اللَّـهُ عَنِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ وَلَمْ يُخْرِجُوكُم مِّن دِيَارِكُمْ أَن تَبَرُّوهُمْ وَتُقْسِطُوا إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ - http://tanzil.net/#60:8

Qarai Translation:
Allah does not forbid you from dealing with kindness and justice with those [polytheists] who did not make war against you on account of religion and did not expel you from your homes. Indeed Allah loves the just.
 
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Your cousin has caught on to something that he feels it's true. And it probably is true to an extent what he says about hatred, intolerance, treatment of other people, etc. His conclusion though is what it wrong. It seems from his writing that he is rejecting the organised religious dogma for the most part.

If Isalm promoted indiscriminate violence then it no longer is a religion of truth. Religion is understood through reason, and that which is contrary to sound reason, can not be religious. We know goodness, we know that bloodshed is a grave thing, even without religion or revelation we know them to be bad deeds, through our fitrah. Religion therefore or revelation, confirms that which the fitrah knows, and adds to it what is accepted through reason. He has to understand that people promote violence intolerance hatred, not religions. Yes it is true, today muslims are the ones killing each other, no doubt, but it is something that is not quantifiable in religion, rather in people. They can use region to further their lack of humanism, and blood thirstiness but it doesn't make their acts religious in anyway. If they where maoist, atheists, they would do the same. Religion prevents these ugly sins, but people can corrupt religious thought and manipulate people to further their aims and goals. Muslims are not immune from shaytan l.a. and his l.a. ways, just as any other people are not immune. 

As for the Holy Prophet s.a.w.a. and the Jewish people of Medinah. It is a lie, invented long ago, dismissed by both muslim scholars and western orientalists. There was one case which he cites that of Banu Qurayda, but in that case it was the warriors among them that where killed, ( mind you not the jews of banu qurayda but only who betrayed their  city and the constitution and fought against their compatriots ). The jews continued to live in Madinah far longer after the Holy Prophet s.a.w.a. had passed away. There where more then six or seven jewish tribes in Madinah at the time, and only those three who betrayed their city and their people where expelled, their possessions where allowed to be taken with them, and they where not touched or wronged in the least. Equally there where Jewish people who fought side by side with the Holy Prophet s.a.w.a. against the Quraysh, for whom the Holy Prophet s.a.w.a. said "They are the best of the Jews". Omar the second Khalifa, when Palestine was conquered, he found that the jews of Palestine had been expelled from their homes by the Christians, he ordered  the jews come back and settle in their country, and in their home. I advise your cousin to read the Jewish encyclopedia with regards to their return in the time of Omar. There is no hatred in Islam for jewish people or any people, apart from what muslims feel today against them with regards to their treatment of our Palestinian brothers. There are ignorant muslims who hate others who are racist, who are homophobic, but such is not sanctioned in Islam, and not part of religion. you judge truth by it's content not by it's people.

Tell your cousin that he is right in some of the points he makes with regard to our situation today, but it is his duty to read further, and not jump to emotional conclusions, if he truly wants to answer the biggest question that would determine his whole life, he has to read and not become an emotional atheist, or a person who is too clever to accept falsehood of religious scholars, but too ignorant to find the truth. His fitra is telling him that injustice bloodshed, hatred, are wrong, and that is the correct view to have, it is the humanistic view, the Islamic view, the most beautiful verses of the Holy Quran are dedicated to these points. Study, learn, with an open mind ready to criticize and accept, then choose your path.

May Allah Guide him, and Guide us. 

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6 hours ago, karbalah said:

Al Salam alikum ,

I wanted to start a debate here , because I need the answers to be helpful and knowledgable ,

 

I have a cousin whom after 30 years of pious religious beliefs  reverted to atheism .

I debated some of his ranting on his Facebook page then gave up but this person's mother who is a relative called me and cried asking me to please keep talking to him .

in my heart I feel it's a lost cause . But for her I promised to try . I am not very knowledgeable I do not have a strong data base .

I need help so please unlike past posts do not ask me to spit in his face or ignore or leave him be , I want whatever resources readers here have or if they know someone with powerful debate capability to let me know .

 

here is one of the things I need help with copied from his post since he believe Islam promotes hate and violence :

""This does not contradict my saying .. Quran preaches hate for others ... Especially jews , and that's why Mohammad kicked and killed the Jews some 1400 years ago and that's why you can't tolerate putting the Jewish star next to the cross and the Hilal in your profile picture 
Moslems are killing each other For the same reason imam Ali fought with Aisha ... Absence of common sense and hatred .. Mohammad used to kill people who say Poetry against him as ka2eb ibn al ashraf and Al Nadr bin Al Harth. He killed them because he could no tolerate their poems , so to start with , there is no islamic tolerance , On top of that , Islam promises those who kill infidels that they are going to heavens and F virgins there ... Anger+ Hate + indoctrination + murderous role models+ virgins+ poverty = suicide bombing ..""

He uses ayat about wars as back up and the way on the Jews and Kuraish .

 

 

Most of those who reverts are lost forever, but first of all you need to prove him that Allah exists and to know how watch this documentary:

About the violence in Islam there will be some questions:

 How many died in the wars of the Muhammad(sawa)?

 answer: less then 2 thousands.

How many died in the wars which were waged by liberals, atheists and commonists?

answer: About 40 millions in first world war

             70 millions in second world war

             about 100 millions in Indians in during the occupying the new continent America.

             The only rulers who used nuclear bomb were from USA, secular rulers, the result was the death of at least 200,000 non military              people.

Who hate Jews more? Muhammad?or atheists?

            In the wars of Muhammad(sawa) against Jews, the Jews were the beginners of the war or they made so much problems that

            there was no other choice except war.

            In the history the wars between Christians and Jews are much more.

            Hitler who is proven to be a Darwinist killed 6 millions Jews , it is not what we say it is what Atheists say :D, the result

            was killing Muslims in Palestine, who were innocent, again the Jews started he war against Muslims.

If speaking about history is called enmity then who are the worse enemies of mankind?

           Definitely historians who wrote history books,

           When Quran speaks about Jews, and their mistakes and what they have done, it is history.

           When Quran blame Jews for what they have done? it is judging a part of history and learning from it.

 

To discuss with an atheist using logical and rational ways is much more better, but most of them just hear it not listening to it, in fact they don't want to listen to it, they hear the truth and search for a way to deny it or if they cannot deny it they say:" Well that's what you claim, who says you are telling the truth?" and this way they .

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A lot of non-Muslims have this idea that the Qur'an is anti-non-Muslim. Its true that the Qur'an criticises the Jews and Christians in places but that doesn't mean that its teaching Muslims to hate them, it warns us all not to make the same mistakes. 

In addition, if the Islam is a religion of hate then why does it say in the Qur'an that if it were not for the Muslims there would be no synagogues or churches left in Medina? If Prophet Muhammad (sawa) hated the Jews and Christians so much why did he protect them with a treaty?

Even the Ahlulbayt (as) have praised non-Muslims, especially Imam Ali (as). He was loved and respected far more by the non-Muslims then the Muslims themselves. He said that a person is either your brother in faith or your brother in humanity. 

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W/s

You said he's been a pious believer for thirty years, and yet it seems he didn't understand his religion during that time. He's adopted a few of the ridiculous stereotypes the West holds.

Moses (as) is mentioned more times the the Prophet (s) himself. So the Qur'an is clearly acknowledging the man who the Jews revere the most. Since your cousin is now an atheist, he probably believes the Qur'an was written by the Prophet (s), so why would the bringer of Islam, who supposedly hates Jews, even mention Moses once? And why would he establish the Constitution of Medina which allowed the Ahl al-Kitab to practise their religion freely? Later on in history we find that when Muawiyah (la) moved westwards from Syria, into Egypt, North Africa, and eventually Spain, the Muslims, Jews, and Christians flourished together for around 800 years. Even before then, at the time of the Early Caliphate when Abu Bakr and Umar launched campaigns towards Iraq and Syria, the majority of the population retained their original religion.

As for Nadr bin al-Harth, he was not killed for his c.rappy poetry, but for fighting against the Prophet (s) at Badr. According to Ibn Ishaq, it was Imam Ali (as) who executed him. The fact that the majority of the captives were spared and ransomed later, and that Nadr and one other were the only two executed, suggests there were special circumstances surrounding them. Likewise, Ka`b bin al-Ashraf tried to instigate strife between Mecca and Medina, and was killed for that, not for his poetry.

Advice for your cousin: 

  • Read the verses in context along with a good tafsir - I recommend Al-Mizan
  • Stop browsing Islamophobic sites run by people who can't tell the difference between a harem and haram
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21 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

The Qur’an states in 3:7 that there are two kinds/types of verses, [1].  That’s why we need to  follow the Tradition of the Two Weighty Things (thaqalayn) [2], & [3].  Conduct of the one we are instructed to follow is contrary to what you are implying. And if the successor is of this calibre, you can imagine the conduct of Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp].

You can google “ constitution of Medina”, In wartime, if the constitution/Treaty is violated, its Treason.

Qur’an was revealed over 23 years, If anyone just quotes random verse, you need to look at the context, what’s the history behind it, when and why it was revealed. Usually, looking at verses before and after, may clarify the meaning.

*****

[1]

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

[2]

Tradition of the Two Weighty Things (thaqalayn)

The Messenger of Allah declared:

"It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere to them both,  you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my Progeny, that is my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."

[3]

The well-known and reliable hadith of the Prophet Muhammad [pbuhahp] -

"I am the city of knowledge and 'Ali is its gate"

The Prophet Muhammad [pbuhahp] said.

"For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings

[4]

“since they are of two kinds, either your brother in religion or one like you in creation”

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-53-order-malik-al-ashtar

[5]

The Voice of Human Justice.Chapter: U.N.CHARTER OF HUMAN RIGHTS

English translation of Sautu'l `Adalati'l Insaniyab, the biography of the Imam, written in

Arabic by George Jordac, a renowned Christian author of lebanon.

https://www.al-islam.org/voice-human-justice-sautul-adalatil-insaniyah-george-jordac/un-charter-human-rights

[6]

United Nations DP Report: Page 82 [Box 5.6] & Imam Ali bin abi Taleb: on governance 107 [Box 7.3].

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Reports/CompleteEnglish.pdf

 

Copied to his fb thank you .

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13 hours ago, Vestige said:

W/s

You said he's been a pious believer for thirty years, and yet it seems he didn't understand his religion during that time. He's adopted a few of the ridiculous stereotypes the West holds.

Moses (as) is mentioned more times the the Prophet (s) himself. So the Qur'an is clearly acknowledging the man who the Jews revere the most. Since your cousin is now an atheist, he probably believes the Qur'an was written by the Prophet (s), so why would the bringer of Islam, who supposedly hates Jews, even mention Moses once? And why would he establish the Constitution of Medina which allowed the Ahl al-Kitab to practise their religion freely? Later on in history we find that when Muawiyah (la) moved westwards from Syria, into Egypt, North Africa, and eventually Spain, the Muslims, Jews, and Christians flourished together for around 800 years. Even before then, at the time of the Early Caliphate when Abu Bakr and Umar launched campaigns towards Iraq and Syria, the majority of the population retained their original religion.

As for Nadr bin al-Harth, he was not killed for his c.rappy poetry, but for fighting against the Prophet (s) at Badr. According to Ibn Ishaq, it was Imam Ali (as) who executed him. The fact that the majority of the captives were spared and ransomed later, and that Nadr and one other were the only two executed, suggests there were special circumstances surrounding them. Likewise, Ka`b bin al-Ashraf tried to instigate strife between Mecca and Medina, and was killed for that, not for his poetry.

Advice for your cousin: 

  • Read the verses in context along with a good tafsir - I recommend Al-Mizan
  • Stop browsing Islamophobic sites run by people who can't tell the difference between a harem and haram

I challenged him to give me sources , still waiting .

I gave up , but it's good to be able to have strong arguments to post against him 

 

I will copy paste yours 

 

God bless 

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You should tell your cousin to read the text of the other religious books and how it degrades others. I recall a lecture on finance from yale university which states, The Jews were not allowed to give interest to each other but they are allowed to give to non-jews. This is one of the reasons why the jews were expelled from Europe, before even Hitler. Interest has destroyed society and has made that specific group wealthy. I doubt if ( he ) has an issue with islam. The person probably is sexually repressed or unhappy with life. Their identity is under the spotlight and are probably exhausted with life and are looking for a way to fit or blend in.

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On June 3, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Vestige said:

W/s

You said he's been a pious believer for thirty years, and yet it seems he didn't understand his religion during that time. He's adopted a few of the ridiculous stereotypes the West holds.

Moses (as) is mentioned more times the the Prophet (s) himself. So the Qur'an is clearly acknowledging the man who the Jews revere the most. Since your cousin is now an atheist, he probably believes the Qur'an was written by the Prophet (s), so why would the bringer of Islam, who supposedly hates Jews, even mention Moses once? And why would he establish the Constitution of Medina which allowed the Ahl al-Kitab to practise their religion freely? Later on in history we find that when Muawiyah (la) moved westwards from Syria, into Egypt, North Africa, and eventually Spain, the Muslims, Jews, and Christians flourished together for around 800 years. Even before then, at the time of the Early Caliphate when Abu Bakr and Umar launched campaigns towards Iraq and Syria, the majority of the population retained their original religion.

As for Nadr bin al-Harth, he was not killed for his c.rappy poetry, but for fighting against the Prophet (s) at Badr. According to Ibn Ishaq, it was Imam Ali (as) who executed him. The fact that the majority of the captives were spared and ransomed later, and that Nadr and one other were the only two executed, suggests there were special circumstances surrounding them. Likewise, Ka`b bin al-Ashraf tried to instigate strife between Mecca and Medina, and was killed for that, not for his poetry.

Advice for your cousin: 

  • Read the verses in context along with a good tafsir - I recommend Al-Mizan
  • Stop browsing Islamophobic sites run by people who can't tell the difference between a harem and haram

See his answer ; 

image.png

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7 minutes ago, karbalah said:

See his answer ; 

image.png

giphy.gif

His first post makes me wanna bash my head into the wall. And the rest is hardly a refutation to my (or any of our) points. 

Could you ask him to make an account on here? It would be more practical for both of us instead of you copy-pasting our replies to him on FB. If he is sincere about learning then he'll definitely come. But something tells me he ain't gonna listen. 

May Allah bless you for your efforts, sister.

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On June 4, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Vestige said:

giphy.gif

His first post makes me wanna bash my head into the wall. And the rest is hardly a refutation to my (or any of our) points. 

Could you ask him to make an account on here? It would be more practical for both of us instead of you copy-pasting our replies to him on FB. If he is sincere about learning then he'll definitely come. But something tells me he ain't gonna listen. 

May Allah bless you for your efforts, sister.

I bashed my head and had to take Advil for migraine 

he does jump around I did consider him here I will ask I doubt he will he seems to be a coward .

 

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On June 4, 2016 at 5:33 AM, monad said:

You should tell your cousin to read the text of the other religious books and how it degrades others. I recall a lecture on finance from yale university which states, The Jews were not allowed to give interest to each other but they are allowed to give to non-jews. This is one of the reasons why the jews were expelled from Europe, before even Hitler. Interest has destroyed society and has made that specific group wealthy. I doubt if ( he ) has an issue with islam. The person probably is sexually repressed or unhappy with life. Their identity is under the spotlight and are probably exhausted with life and are looking for a way to fit or blend in.

Married with three kids I think it's the new friends he has it's a cult .

 

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Ramadan Mubarak everyone .

 

 New post came up today it's in Arabic :

"وَعَلَى الَّذِينَ يُطِيقُونَهُ فِدْيَةٌ طَعَامُ مِسْكِينٍ فَمَنْ تَطَوَّعَ خَيْرًا فَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَهُ وَأَنْ تَصُومُوا خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ "- البقرة ١٨٤.

هذه الآية غير مفعول بها، اذ نسخت ( أبطلت) بآيات قرآنية اخرى..  

الصوم في هذا العام حوالي ١٨ ساعة في معظم العالم ، وشهر حزيران هو شهر الامتحانات وتقرير المصير ، كثير من الصاءمين ، هم من طلاب المدارس والجامعات والذي يتقرر مصير مستقبلهم في هذا الشهر .. لا زال العالم الاسلامي بانتظار علماء شجعان ليعيدون تفعيل الآية المذكورة أعلاه .

 

quick translation : fasting Is bad for you .

my reply:

Humm no need to تفعيل ... There is an extended part to this AYA for those who can not fast ..to do it on another day ..and really it did not specify .. Soooo the Koran and the intellect of ulama are ahead of you on this one and trust me dear I know what I am talking about because I asked and applied it myself since I work 13 hour shift taking care of sick people . 

If you can not because of work or sick or travel or the hours are too long and will affect certain important aspects of your life 
Then you hold as long  as you can and you break your fast and you pay fidieh and fast another day .

Just ask Cousi .. Call around and get a quote . I did .

 

 

his reply:

لست بحاجة الى فتوة 
انا أفتي لنفسي 

" ولا تلقوا بايديكم الى التهلكة ".. البقرة ١٩٥
لا ضرر ولا ضرار... الرسول محمد  

من الآية القرانية والحديث النبوي نستنتج ان كل شيئ مضاره اكثر من منافعه يجب ان لا نعمل به ..
هناك إثبات علمي على ان الامتناع عن شرب المياه يسبب أضرار جسيمة ، وإيذاء للنفس وليس فيه منفعة.

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v57/n2s/full/1601899a.html

 

 

Sum: does anyone here have medical sources that prove that fasting is actually Healthy .

 

 

ps. working on getting him to sign up here .

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Salam

Leave Islam aside.

All spiritual practises have fasting.

Just google fasting in yogis or Hinduism .

Lots of yogis don't even eat anything for months, yet they don't fall sick, and probably even heal those city people who are sick!

They may be sticks and bones but barely fall sick.

Islam has taken away this burden , because the majority of people are needy.

It seems your cousin just practised traditional Islam with no solid intellectual backing or understanding just practised what he was fed.

Probably he was as stubborn as a supposedly practising Muslim as now he is non practising or even for that matter an atheist as he calls himself.

Having said that an atheist is a spiritually dead person who might not be interested in any spiritual field, and his Lord will be his own intellect only.

Last not least according to his theory, his posts on Fb should not be trusted  100 years down the road either, and people would say this person probably did not exists but was just a good 3D model.

 

Edited by certainclarity
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The article quotes that no negative effects have been made. Tell him to visit a shrink and he needs help. Even bodybuilders these days to intermittent fasting or a lesser simpler versions are the juice diet or water diets. People do this to restart their bodies as all toxins are flushed way by the body. I am sure he knows how to use google and youtube tell him because you do not have time to baby sit him,.

Side note - There are 6 main orgs that fund all medical research in the world or the usa. What does this tell us about what they want people to learn. If fasting was bad, then how comes people of all faiths have been doing it for centuries, including christians, who do a 40 day fast with water and bread in Greece.

google benefits of water fasting too.

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There was a thread posted not too long ago called "causes of infidelity and loss of belief in Allah" by God is Love and it sums up everything here perfectly. I do not know how to link threads without putting a web address so a quick google search of the title will find it for you. Reading this will help you understand why he thinks this way and may also help you on how to approach this manner. Reiterating most of what everyone's already said; if he is sincere in learning then he will find. Someone who acts on the rebuttal and refutal of every single source or verse given to him, stays ignorant and self-inclosed, and uninterested in the other's opinion will lead to nowhere.

The main fact that you are trying is more then enough and Allah will accept this. Do not feel upset by it.

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On June 6, 2016 at 6:27 AM, certainclarity said:

Salam

Leave Islam aside.

All spiritual practises have fasting.

Just google fasting in yogis or Hinduism .

Lots of yogis don't even eat anything for months, yet they don't fall sick, and probably even heal those city people who are sick!

They may be sticks and bones but barely fall sick.

Islam has taken away this burden , because the majority of people are needy.

It seems your cousin just practised traditional Islam with no solid intellectual backing or understanding just practised what he was fed.

Probably he was as stubborn as a supposedly practising Muslim as now he is non practising or even for that matter an atheist as he calls himself.

Having said that an atheist is a spiritually dead person who might not be interested in any spiritual field, and his Lord will be his own intellect only.

Last not least according to his theory, his posts on Fb should not be trusted  100 years down the road either, and people would say this person probably did not exists but was just a good 3D model.

 

You really opened my eyes to something here 

I have been in touch with a group of pious people that said same thing it was never in his heart to start with .

 

I am copying your post with minor adjustment .

 

Added that  I think that being this far from Islam also leads you to Join the extremist on the other side ??

 

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On 6/3/2016 at 0:50 AM, karbalah said:

Al Salam alikum ,

I wanted to start a debate here , because I need the answers to be helpful and knowledgable ,

 

I have a cousin whom after 30 years of pious religious beliefs  reverted to atheism .

I debated some of his ranting on his Facebook page then gave up but this person's mother who is a relative called me and cried asking me to please keep talking to him .

in my heart I feel it's a lost cause . But for her I promised to try . I am not very knowledgeable I do not have a strong data base .

I need help so please unlike past posts do not ask me to spit in his face or ignore or leave him be , I want whatever resources readers here have or if they know someone with powerful debate capability to let me know .

 

here is one of the things I need help with copied from his post since he believe Islam promotes hate and violence :

""This does not contradict my saying .. Quran preaches hate for others ... Especially jews , and that's why Mohammad kicked and killed the Jews some 1400 years ago and that's why you can't tolerate putting the Jewish star next to the cross and the Hilal in your profile picture 
Moslems are killing each other For the same reason imam Ali fought with Aisha ... Absence of common sense and hatred .. Mohammad used to kill people who say Poetry against him as ka2eb ibn al ashraf and Al Nadr bin Al Harth. He killed them because he could no tolerate their poems , so to start with , there is no islamic tolerance , On top of that , Islam promises those who kill infidels that they are going to heavens and F virgins there ... Anger+ Hate + indoctrination + murderous role models+ virgins+ poverty = suicide bombing ..""

He uses ayat about wars as back up and the way on the Jews and Kuraish .

 

 

You can debunk all his arguments in one statment how do you prove morality not dependant on culture or time?

 

We as Muslims believe in divinely ordained morals through revelation otherwise there is no way to prove right or wrong.

 

What is the value of a human life(from your cousin's perspective) as we are all just reassembled carbon molecules, what is the difference between crushing a human skull or a chocolate bar?

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4 hours ago, karbalah said:

 

Al Salam alikum 

in light of what happened here is a new post .

 

I have been using your replies to add to his posts .

but I am on the verge of giving up .

 

The Omar guy did not even have a working knowledge of the Quran and he was bipolar.

 

Mass shootings and suicide bombings are relatively new to the Muslim world.

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On 6/4/2016 at 2:06 PM, karbalah said:

See his answer ; 

image.png

 

The Prophet did not even have any knowledge of how to read or write in Arabic let alone any knowledge of the other religions your cousin has to assume that the Prophet was some type of literary genius of Arabic poetry.

Your cousin has to assume that

A) The Prophet had knowledge of the Tanakh, The Talmud, the many Gospels about Jesus, other religious texts.

B) The Prophet knew how to read and write.

C) The Prophet had an education where he took time to learn these things which by all contemporary evidence there is none to suggest this.

Tel your cousin Occam's Razor, a logical principle, states that the more information you have the least likely that situation is to actually have occurred.

 

For instance, if I see a broken bottle and I make stories and speculate about it was Space Aliens! They were green and they used a lazer to destroy that bottle.

 

The more complex and more details I add to that scenario the least likely it is to be true so your cousin is blatantly wrong and violates the basic premises of logic.

 

Finally, the Prophet never gained any extensive support from the Jews by mentioning Moses he mentioned Moses because he was a Prophet there were very few Jews that came to Islam because of Moses so your cousin's argument is wrong.

Edited by Enlightened Follower
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8 hours ago, karbalah said:

You really opened my eyes to something here 

I have been in touch with a group of pious people that said same thing it was never in his heart to start with .

 

I am copying your post with minor adjustment .

 

Added that  I think that being this far from Islam also leads you to Join the extremist on the other side ??

 

Good point. I don't what to say...

which better of the two evil. To be an atheist or to be an extremist who may end up killing people under the name of Islam and jihad...

I personally would leave him alone.

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Al Salam alikum 

because of the month of Ramadan I have not been very active . But to those who speak Arabic 

ayone saw anything like this attached?

 

for everyone here he is Depcting Imam Ali similar to al Hajaj that or Imam fought and killed he is using this war as proof that there was injustice done , I am not very well versed in history but anyone with knowledge of that incident maybe can give me some input .

image.png

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4 hours ago, karbalah said:

for everyone here he is Depcting Imam Ali similar to al Hajaj that or Imam fought and killed he is using this war as proof that there was injustice done , I am not very well versed in history but anyone with knowledge of that incident maybe can give me some input .

Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf was an Umayyad governor who was ruthless and came many years after how is even able to compare him to Imam Ali?

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كتاب نهج البلاغة .

أن مؤلف الكتاب هو الشريف الرضي ( 969 - 1015م )
بينما الأمام علي ( 599م - 661 م)
 اي بين موت الكاتب وموت علي 400 سنة تقريباً.

في المنهج العلمي للبحث يكون "السند" هو الوثائق الموجودة  
كتاب نهج البلاغة مكتوب من دون اي وثائق تثبت النص عن علي.

لنقل الكلام يجب أن يتواجد الإسناد عن كذا عن كذا عن كذا علي قال كذا مثلاً.

أو يكون الإسناد مكتوب عن كذا عن علي وتجده في كتاب قبل كتابة نهج البلاغة.

وعلى كل ناقل أن يبين الإسناد المكتوب بالأسماء.

الإدعاء المجرد لا يعجز عنه أحد.

حتى النقل يدخل في قائمة التراهات أساساً إستناداً على تجربة علمية تسمى " الهمس" سأنشر عنها بعد هذا.

لأن الروايات اللسانية التي وصلت إلينا لا تعتبر إثبات.

في الإسلام يتقسم الحديث إلى عدة أقسام بحسب صحته

1- الحديث الصحيح
2- الحسن
3- الضعيف
4- الموضوع

علماء الاسلام لاحقاً أدخلوا أساليب لقبول الأحاديث:
منهج في قبول الأخبار ومعرفة الرواة الذين يعتد بروايتهم أو لا يعتد بها.
وهذا يعتمد على إيمان الراوي وسيطه الحسن.
بعدها إخترعوا شروط الرواية وطرقها وظروفها وتطابقها مع الأيات أو الأحداث وقتها إلخ.

في نهج البلاغة ستجد الكثير من الحكم المشهورة على لسان فلاسفة منسوبة لعلي بإسلوب أخر.

أو معاني الكلمات توجد في كلمات لأشخاص غير علي ( سبقوه)

نهج البلاعة يحتوي على حكم أساساً تُنسب للجاحظ وغيره.

ستجد خطب لعلي يأم بها المسلمين غير موجودة في كتب الشيعة والسنة ولكنها فجأة موجودة في نهج البلاغة.

الكاتب تعمد عدم ذكر الرواة لأنه وقتها لابد البحث عنهم وعن عدالتهم فهو اكتفى برمي الكلام بإسم علي.

معظم ما تقرأه على لسان علي بن أبي طالب غير صحيح
إنما مجرد حكم نٌسبت له ليرتفع شأنه بين أتباعه.

الغريب أو ما يثبت بطلان الكتاب أو معظم ما جاء به هو الروايات التي تنتقص من أبي بكر وعمر وتسخفهما وهذا غير مقبول لرجل حكيم مع جماعته المبشرين بالجنة.

يوجد نصوص متفق عليها السنة والشيعة في الكتاب وهي ( عادية)

ونصوص متفق عليها من طرف الشيعة وتعتبر ( جيدة)

أما نصوص الحكمة والفلسفة العميقة لا سند لها لا بكتب السنة ولا الشيعة أساساً.

هذا الحشد المهيب من الخطب والرسائل والحكم وتصوير علي بفيلسوف عصره مثير للسخرية 

بالنهاية نهج البلاغة كتاب من غير إسناد لا وزن له من الناحية العلمية.

محتواه مسروق من حكم الفلاسفة والمفكرين ومنسوبة لشخص إشتهر بسيفه.، وكان اليد القاتلة للرسول ، احرق المرتدين بالنار ، وقتل اسرى يهود بني قريظة..

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8 hours ago, karbalah said:

Copied 

كتاب نهج البلاغة .

أن مؤلف الكتاب هو الشريف الرضي ( 969 - 1015م )
بينما الأمام علي ( 599م - 661 م)
 اي بين موت الكاتب وموت علي 400 سنة تقريباً.

في المنهج العلمي للبحث يكون "السند" هو الوثائق الموجودة  
كتاب نهج البلاغة مكتوب من دون اي وثائق تثبت النص عن علي.

لنقل الكلام يجب أن يتواجد الإسناد عن كذا عن كذا عن كذا علي قال كذا مثلاً.

أو يكون الإسناد مكتوب عن كذا عن علي وتجده في كتاب قبل كتابة نهج البلاغة.

وعلى كل ناقل أن يبين الإسناد المكتوب بالأسماء.

الإدعاء المجرد لا يعجز عنه أحد.

حتى النقل يدخل في قائمة التراهات أساساً إستناداً على تجربة علمية تسمى " الهمس" سأنشر عنها بعد هذا.

لأن الروايات اللسانية التي وصلت إلينا لا تعتبر إثبات.

في الإسلام يتقسم الحديث إلى عدة أقسام بحسب صحته

1- الحديث الصحيح
2- الحسن
3- الضعيف
4- الموضوع

علماء الاسلام لاحقاً أدخلوا أساليب لقبول الأحاديث:
منهج في قبول الأخبار ومعرفة الرواة الذين يعتد بروايتهم أو لا يعتد بها.
وهذا يعتمد على إيمان الراوي وسيطه الحسن.
بعدها إخترعوا شروط الرواية وطرقها وظروفها وتطابقها مع الأيات أو الأحداث وقتها إلخ.

في نهج البلاغة ستجد الكثير من الحكم المشهورة على لسان فلاسفة منسوبة لعلي بإسلوب أخر.

أو معاني الكلمات توجد في كلمات لأشخاص غير علي ( سبقوه)

نهج البلاعة يحتوي على حكم أساساً تُنسب للجاحظ وغيره.

ستجد خطب لعلي يأم بها المسلمين غير موجودة في كتب الشيعة والسنة ولكنها فجأة موجودة في نهج البلاغة.

الكاتب تعمد عدم ذكر الرواة لأنه وقتها لابد البحث عنهم وعن عدالتهم فهو اكتفى برمي الكلام بإسم علي.

معظم ما تقرأه على لسان علي بن أبي طالب غير صحيح
إنما مجرد حكم نٌسبت له ليرتفع شأنه بين أتباعه.

الغريب أو ما يثبت بطلان الكتاب أو معظم ما جاء به هو الروايات التي تنتقص من أبي بكر وعمر وتسخفهما وهذا غير مقبول لرجل حكيم مع جماعته المبشرين بالجنة.

يوجد نصوص متفق عليها السنة والشيعة في الكتاب وهي ( عادية)

ونصوص متفق عليها من طرف الشيعة وتعتبر ( جيدة)

أما نصوص الحكمة والفلسفة العميقة لا سند لها لا بكتب السنة ولا الشيعة أساساً.

هذا الحشد المهيب من الخطب والرسائل والحكم وتصوير علي بفيلسوف عصره مثير للسخرية 

بالنهاية نهج البلاغة كتاب من غير إسناد لا وزن له من الناحية العلمية.

محتواه مسروق من حكم الفلاسفة والمفكرين ومنسوبة لشخص إشتهر بسيفه.، وكان اليد القاتلة للرسول ، احرق المرتدين بالنار ، وقتل اسرى يهود بني قريظة..

 I auto translated the last part.

 

First off: There are no specific numbers in regards to Banu Qurayza and the hadith regarding their executions enmasse is inauthentic.

 

The hadith that he mentions of burning Atheists is not considered authentic it is considered Gharib which means many details could have been omitted from that hadith so it is not reliable.

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Muslims were given permission to defend themselves around the time of Prophet Muhammad’s migration from Makkah, where he grew up, to the city of Madinah where he spent the rest of his life. This occurred in the 13th year of his 23-year mission. The danger to Muslims in Makkah at this time was extreme and there was a real possibility of their total eradication. They were permitted to fight back in self-defense against those who violently oppressed them. “Permission is given (to fight) those who have taken up arms against you wrongfully. And verily God (Allah) is well able to give you succor. To those who have been driven forth from their homes for no reason than this that say ‘Our Lord is God.” Qur’an goes on to add, “Hath not God repelled some men by others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of God is ever mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down.” (Qur’an 22: 39-42)

On another occasion Qur’an says, “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but don’t transgress limits; for God loves not the transgressor." The verse goes on to say “And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression."(Qur’an 2: 190-193

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On June 26, 2016 at 0:34 PM, Enlightened Follower said:

Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf was an Umayyad governor who was ruthless and came many years after how is even able to compare him to Imam Ali?

I have an issue with him not adding any references when he sprouts at racks like that ...

 

my problem I an not knowledgeable in Islamic history..

i would argue with him about the Hajaj but I do not want to be like him I need references . 

 

 

 

 

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On June 26, 2016 at 0:34 PM, Enlightened Follower said:

Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf was an Umayyad governor who was ruthless and came many years after how is even able to compare him to Imam Ali?

I have an issue with him not adding any references when he sprouts at racks like that ...

 

my problem I an not knowledgeable in Islamic history..

i would argue with him about the Hajaj but I do not want to be like him I need references . 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Hazara.Fighter said:

Muslims were given permission to defend themselves around the time of Prophet Muhammad’s migration from Makkah, where he grew up, to the city of Madinah where he spent the rest of his life. This occurred in the 13th year of his 23-year mission. The danger to Muslims in Makkah at this time was extreme and there was a real possibility of their total eradication. They were permitted to fight back in self-defense against those who violently oppressed them. “Permission is given (to fight) those who have taken up arms against you wrongfully. And verily God (Allah) is well able to give you succor. To those who have been driven forth from their homes for no reason than this that say ‘Our Lord is God.” Qur’an goes on to add, “Hath not God repelled some men by others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of God is ever mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down.” (Qur’an 22: 39-42)

On another occasion Qur’an says, “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but don’t transgress limits; for God loves not the transgressor." The verse goes on to say “And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression."(Qur’an 2: 190-193

 

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14 hours ago, Hazara.Fighter said:

Muslims were given permission to defend themselves around the time of Prophet Muhammad’s migration from Makkah, where he grew up, to the city of Madinah where he spent the rest of his life. This occurred in the 13th year of his 23-year mission. The danger to Muslims in Makkah at this time was extreme and there was a real possibility of their total eradication. They were permitted to fight back in self-defense against those who violently oppressed them. “Permission is given (to fight) those who have taken up arms against you wrongfully. And verily God (Allah) is well able to give you succor. To those who have been driven forth from their homes for no reason than this that say ‘Our Lord is God.” Qur’an goes on to add, “Hath not God repelled some men by others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of God is ever mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down.” (Qur’an 22: 39-42)

On another occasion Qur’an says, “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but don’t transgress limits; for God loves not the transgressor." The verse goes on to say “And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression."(Qur’an 2: 190-193

You answer :(

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37 minutes ago, karbalah said:

You answer :(

image.png

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How were Quraysh more Merciful?

 

They ordered Economic sanctions on the Muslims they prevented them from allowing to even live out life in Mecca they tortured noted Sahaba like Bilal.

 

Second the Prophet did not marry a 6 year old girl. Women in hot desert climates hit puberty earlier even in the US and Great Britain there is no universally agreed age of consent. 

 

Ask him if the options in 7th century Arabia are being married at the age of puberty or tending to camels in a desert what option would be chosen?

 

There were no universities or plans to do anything else.

 

The reason why people today do not marry immediately is because they have plans to go to University, plan out their life etc.

 

In the 7th century those options were not on the table it was either stay in the middle of a desert and do nothing or get married.

 

Edited by Enlightened Follower
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