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Noble Quran

"[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."

Edited by Tawheed313

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7 minutes ago, Tawheed313 said:

Noble Quran

"[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."

Yes but isnt the case here that jesus prays to Allah and Allah actually creates the action ?

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41 minutes ago, Al Amir said:

Can anyone besides Allah have the power of creation even by the will of Allah ?

Is this what is meant by wilayat-e takwini ?

I consider such belief as shirk

 

Brother, you are wrong. The word "besides" is itself shirk and it is itself contrary to the concept of  wilayat-e takwini.

wilayat-e takwini is not something besides Allah it is in fact in the hierarchy of Tawheed and it is done by Allah himself. System of creation is a hierarchy. The head is Allah himself whose existence is based on itself and the body are creatures whose existence, actions, thought and everything are based on Allah.

The most near creature to Allah is the perfect human who is the mediate between earth and sky.

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5 minutes ago, maes said:

Brother, you are wrong. The word "besides" is itself shirk and it is itself contrary to the concept of  wilayat-e takwini.

wilayat-e takwini is not something besides Allah it is in fact in the hierarchy of Tawheed and it is done by Allah himself. System of creation is a hierarchy. The head is Allah himself whose existence is based on itself and the body are creatures whose existence, actions, thought and everything are based on Allah.

The most near creature to Allah is the perfect human who is the mediate between earth and sky.

my point is even with Allahs leave can aything have the power of creation ? this sounds like shirk

if what we mean by that is miracles performed by prophets,imams and the pious the creator of such wonderous things is Allah doesnt the quran say Allah is the creator off all things ?

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I think its best to say that Allah if it pleases may manifest his power of creation in many forms and miracles performed by the selected ones is an example of the manifestation of Allah's power of creation the creator such actions is Allah 

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The Akhbari beliefs should be deleted from our beliefs there are such idiotic beliefs which they adhere to because the reject logic.They are worse than the salafis

Edited by Al Amir

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6 hours ago, Al Amir said:

Can anyone besides Allah have the power of creation even by the will of Allah ?

Is this what is meant by wilayat-e takwini ?

I consider such belief as shirk

 

Only Allah (swt) Creates. He is the Creator, and we are the creations. When Isa (as) made bird out of clay by His permission, it is Allah (swt) who created it. The whole process; The movement, the materials, the laws, the breath, the clay, the life etc is all created by Allah (swt).

In Qur'an Allah (swt) says: Say, " Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Prevailing." 13:16

No one but Allah (swt) creates.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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On 5/30/2016 at 1:36 AM, Al Amir said:

I think its best to say that Allah if it pleases may manifest his power of creation in many forms and miracles performed by the selected ones is an example of the manifestation of Allah's power of creation the creator such actions is Allah 

 

Everything is the manifestation of Allah. Everything.

It depends on how we look at it. Quran does not deny the creation done by the creatures. But Quran wants that we know everything is based on Allah.

then we created of the drop, a clot (of congealed blood) and we created the clot into bitesize tissue, then we created the bitesize tissue into bones, then we clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it an other creation. blessed is Allah, the best of creators! (Quran 23:14)

Edited by maes

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16 hours ago, maes said:
 

Everything is the manifestation of Allah. Everything.

It depends on how we look at it. Quran does not deny the creation done by the creatures. But Quran wants that we know everything is based on Allah.

then we created of the drop, a clot (of congealed blood) and we created the clot into bitesize tissue, then we created the bitesize tissue into bones, then we clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it an other creation. blessed is Allah, the best of creators! (Quran 23:14)

Doesnt the Quran say that Allah is the creator of ALL things ?

As for the verse you quoted (23:14) there the best of creators phrase is used to beautifty Allah's creator attribute hence doesnt remotly imply that there are other creators.

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5 hours ago, Al Amir said:

Doesnt the Quran say that Allah is the creator of ALL things ?

As for the verse you quoted (23:14) there the best of creators phrase is used to beautifty Allah's creator attribute hence doesnt remotly imply that there are other creators.

Brother, your statement does not make sense ! We should consider all the verses all together and put them besides each other and get a wide perspective of the truth. Allah himself is the only creator but this creation is not necessarily direct. Universe is based on the hierarchy of tools.

 

(Jesus says) from clay, i will create for you the likeness of a bird. i shall breathe into it and by the permission of Allah, it shall be a bird. i shall heal the blind, and the leper, and raise the dead to life by the permission of Allah. i shall tell you what you ate and what you store in your houses. surely, that will be a sign for you, if you are believers. (Quran3:49)

 

Jesus explicitly says that he creates with God's permission. So Jesus is a creator. You are a creator. I am a creator. Creating is a name of Allah that has manifested in his creatures. Like other names. It is enough that you know the source and the hand of Allah almighty.

This is the problem that we always have with Wahhabies. Shirk is mostly something in the heart not necessary some words in the mouth !

Ali ibn abi Talib says :  

ما رأيت شيئا الا و رأيت الله قبله و بعده و معه و فيه

I did not see anything unless I saw Allah before it, after it and within it.

This is the life of a monotheist that never forsakes his Lord. This is a deep belief and a deep perception.

 

Edited by maes

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On 01.06.2016 at 6:05 PM, maes said:

Brother, your statement does not make sense ! We should consider all the verses all together and put them besides each other and get a wide perspective of the truth. Allah himself is the only creator but this creation is not necessarily direct. Universe is based on the hierarchy of tools.

 

(Jesus says) from clay, i will create for you the likeness of a bird. i shall breathe into it and by the permission of Allah, it shall be a bird. i shall heal the blind, and the leper, and raise the dead to life by the permission of Allah. i shall tell you what you ate and what you store in your houses. surely, that will be a sign for you, if you are believers. (Quran3:49)

 

Jesus explicitly says that he creates with God's permission. So Jesus is a creator. You are a creator. I am a creator. Creating is a name of Allah that has manifested in his creatures. Like other names. It is enough that you know the source and the hand of Allah almighty.

This is the problem that we always have with Wahhabies. Shirk is mostly something in the heart not necessary some words in the mouth !

Ali ibn abi Talib says :  

ما رأيت شيئا الا و رأيت الله قبله و بعده و معه و فيه

I did not see anything unless I saw Allah before it, after it and within it.

This is the life of a monotheist that never forsakes his Lord. This is a deep belief and a deep perception.

 

so do i create my daily actions ? for example if  i pick up a glass of water and drink it , is it me who created that action ?

isnt this the position mutazilah ? 

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1 hour ago, Al Amir said:

so do i create my daily actions ? for example if  i pick up a glass of water and drink it , is it me who created that action ?

isnt this the position mutazilah ? 

Salam,

Yes it is your action stemmed from what you wanted and chose to do.

However if you read al- Kafi it explains Allah first created the definition called " Will" ( Sha'a)

Thru this will you can will, if he did not create this WILL you would never have been able to have wanted/ willed anything.

You can read Al- Kafi on the chapter of will and will power.

These were some what the first things Allah created in existence so thru this creation we to can WILL/WANT.

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11 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

Salam,

Yes it is your action stemmed from what you wanted and chose to do.

However if you read al- Kafi it explains Allah first created the definition called " Will" ( Sha'a)

Thru this will you can will, if he did not create this WILL you would never have been able to have wanted/ willed anything.

You can read Al- Kafi on the chapter of will and will power.

These were some what the first things Allah created in existence so thru this creation we to can WILL/WANT.

is this your opininon or the opinion of our sect in general ?

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25 minutes ago, Al Amir said:

is this your opininon or the opinion of our sect in general ?

Salam,

As I mentioned it is all in al- Kafi.

Here are some:


H 380, Ch. 26, h3

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Ali ibn Ma‘bad from Wasil ibn Sulayman from ‘Abd Allah ibn Sinan who said the following:

“I heard (Imam) abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, saying,

‘Allah commanded but did not will. He willed but did not command. He commanded Satan to prostrate but He did not will it (Satan to prostrate).

If He willed Satan would have prostrated. He prohibited Adam from eating of the tree and willed him to eat. Had He not willed he would not eat.’”


h6

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr who said that (Imam) abu al-Hassan al-Rida has said the following:

“Allah said, ‘O son of Adam through My will you came into existence and it is you who will for yourself whatever you will.

Through My power you fulfill your obligations and through My bounties you receive strength to disobey Me. I made you to hear and see and be strong.

Whatever good you receive is from Allah and whatever evil afflicts you is from your own self. It is because I deserve credit in your good deeds and you are held responsible for your bad deeds.

This is because I am not asked what I do but they are held responsible for what they do.’ 

******

There is more, you just have to google al- kafi and read up the chapter on WILL, and it explains that Allah created WILL.etc

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Also:

H 297, Ch. 14, h4
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from ‘Umar ibn ’Udhayna from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who said the following:


“Allah CREATED His WILL by will itself. Then, He CREATED ALL things by His WILL.”

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On 29/05/2016 at 10:00 PM, Al Amir said:

my point is even with Allahs leave can aything have the power of creation ? this sounds like shirk

if what we mean by that is miracles performed by prophets,imams and the pious the creator of such wonderous things is Allah doesnt the quran say Allah is the creator off all things ?

 

On 29/05/2016 at 10:06 PM, Al Amir said:

I think its best to say that Allah if it pleases may manifest his power of creation in many forms and miracles performed by the selected ones is an example of the manifestation of Allah's power of creation the creator such actions is Allah 

 

On 29/05/2016 at 10:12 PM, Al Amir said:

The Akhbari beliefs should be deleted from our beliefs there are such idiotic beliefs which they adhere to because the reject logic.They are worse than the salafis

 

On 01/06/2016 at 10:18 AM, Al Amir said:

Doesnt the Quran say that Allah is the creator of ALL things ?

As for the verse you quoted (23:14) there the best of creators phrase is used to beautifty Allah's creator attribute hence doesnt remotly imply that there are other creators.

who apart from you and a couple of online idiots have ever claimed wilayat taqweeniya is the belief that masumeen (as) have power separate to allahs, or they can do things without his permission?

 

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1 hour ago, certainclarity said:


h6

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr who said that (Imam) abu al-Hassan al-Rida has said the following:

“Allah said, ‘O son of Adam through My will you came into existence and it is you who will for yourself whatever you will.

Through My power you fulfill your obligations and through My bounties you receive strength to disobey Me. I made you to hear and see and be strong.

Whatever good you receive is from Allah and whatever evil afflicts you is from your own self. It is because I deserve credit in your good deeds and you are held responsible for your bad deeds.

This is because I am not asked what I do but they are held responsible for what they do.’ 

 

Darn all those poor suffering idiots. All the suffering is because of their own evils and let us prostrate to all the wealthy, for they have been favored. Clearly not a very clever narration.

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1 hour ago, monad said:

Darn all those poor suffering idiots. All the suffering is because of their own evils and let us prostrate to all the wealthy, for they have been favored. Clearly not a very clever narration.

How about if we see if the hadith corresponds to the Quran:

Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself. ( 4:79)

You did not read the narration properly. It said AND you are held for your EVIL DEEDS, that is what it meant regarding evil affliction.

Evil in islamic term means lack of intellect.

Kindly check the al- kafi what is considered intellect and what is considered ignorance. The evil that stems from deliberate ignorance is what is meant here.

If you are not a muslim and dont believe in the Quran, that is another thing.

 

Edited by certainclarity

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On 5/29/2016 at 4:14 PM, Al Amir said:

Can anyone besides Allah have the power of creation even by the will of Allah ?

Do you mean creation of living, on Earth ? Or control of systems on this Earth? Supposing, if there is such a thing, that someone has that power. How do you consider it so significant that It will equate to the power of the Divine Creator of ALL KNOWN/UNKNOWN living,non living, in the the Entire System, which we have no clue, as to how big it is. Reality of the rock we live on maybe a drop of water in the Ocean

otherwise- Create what? and exactly where? 

Creation of Solar system[whatever is in it]?

Creation of Milkyway/galaxy[whatever is in it]?[appx 100 Billion + stars]

Creation of Known Universe[whatever i sin it] ? [appx 100 Billion galaxies in observable universe]

Creation of whatever contains this observable Universe?

what exactly, are you referring to ?

Layman.

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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12 hours ago, certainclarity said:

How about if we see if the hadith corresponds to the Quran:

Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself. ( 4:79)

You did not read the narration properly. It said AND you are held for your EVIL DEEDS, that is what it meant regarding evil affliction.

Evil in islamic term means lack of intellect.

Kindly check the al- kafi what is considered intellect and what is considered ignorance. The evil that stems from deliberate ignorance is what is meant here.

If you are not a muslim and dont believe in the Quran, that is another thing.

 

Good points, however do tell me how evil befalls are person. We can make statements such as  the lack of intellect, but I could propose a very simple idiom. Why do you and I differ in intellect or rather why is our intellect of a lesser quality then say that of Seneca - Aristotle - Socrates. You and I have to read particular texts in order to realise that there is such a phrase or qualitative condition called intellect, but prior to that, we had no idea of such a statement.

Both our weak arguments are not even ours, they most likely stem from the works of others. So has evil befallen either one of us?. In your opinion it will be me which is fine.

If intellect is good, then God blessed one of the sheep with it, and if lack of intellect is bad, then God has not blessed one of the sheep with it. Therefore if evil ( lack of intellect ) befalls a person, they were not blessed with intellect. Does the person who now does evil out of ignorance at fault?.  How can a person be held for an evil deed, if they were not selectively blessed with the Good, that being intellect in your terminology?. Hence my first statement was encompassing the whole problem.

 

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26 minutes ago, monad said:

Good points, however do tell me how evil befalls are person. We can make statements such as  the lack of intellect, but I could propose a very simple idiom. Why do you and I differ in intellect or rather why is our intellect of a lesser quality then say that of Seneca - Aristotle - Socrates. You and I have to read particular texts in order to realise that there is such a phrase or qualitative condition called intellect, but prior to that, we had no idea of such a statement.

Both our weak arguments are not even ours, they most likely stem from the works of others. So has evil befallen either one of us?. In your opinion it will be me which is fine.

If intellect is good, then God blessed one of the sheep with it, and if lack of intellect is bad, then God has not blessed one of the sheep with it. Therefore if evil ( lack of intellect ) befalls a person, they were not blessed with intellect. Does the person who now does evil out of ignorance at fault?.  How can a person be held for an evil deed, if they were not selectively blessed with the Good, that being intellect in your terminology?. Hence my first statement was encompassing the whole problem.

 

If you really want to understand this topic from an islamic perspective , I suggest studying the hadiths that correspond to the Quran in Al-Kafi, it explains this topic very well.

Specially the chapter on intelligence and ignorance, and the chapter on belief and disbelief.

These chapters actually explains what does it mean to have intellect in Islam and is very different from the definition of intellect from world philosophies. 

It is abit long to explain.

But if you take your inspiration and thought process from the likes of Aristotale, Seneca etc, that is another thing, and the hadiths and explaination from Ahlul bayt might not be helpful to you to understand the topic at hand.

All the best.

 

 

Edited by certainclarity

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You made two inferences regarding my beliefs, and I would appreciate if you do not make such assumptions, although I do not care for it but others may see it as condescending. The issue is not of inspiration but rather a universal truth and also the similarities regarding thoughts of the greeks to that of certain islamic ideas. Seneca comes close. One cannot just read islamic works and assume it to be true, just like Mutahhari discusses or attempts to refute western ideas that clash with the Islamic thought process. I chose the word attempt as I do not fully understand his works, similarly to that of Russel or any other logicians out there.

Regarding al-kafi, I can point out many contradictions but the issue here would be that of grading and I assume it would be a pointless conjecture.

Edited by monad
capricious

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