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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imam Mahdi (a.s) is not Messiah?

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Based on shia sources Isa (a.s) will come back also Mahdi (a.s) together they will win over evil and rule the earth. I believe Isa (a.s) will be the King for all humans both physically and spiritually. Why would a previous messenger and prophet (a.s) follow a saint?

Peace belivers in truth

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First it is important to understand the concept of a Messiah. Messiah comes from the Hebrew word Moshiach and the Arabic word Messih, and it means "anointed one". In the way that kings and consecrated

Thank you follower of the praised seal of the Prophets the one whom perfected moral conduct. We know the household of Ahmed (saws) were purified thru the warning Quran and since they followed the sunn

Since when is reincarnation an islamic belief?

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Thank you for such information. In the wise Quran God mentions Solomon (a.s) only by his name while he was the most powerful human King ever and forever. He was son of David (a.s) but never named Messiah by God. While you state that the last Messiah will be from the line of David (a.s) this I hold true but God has not said anything about Jesus (a.s) not coming back thru a natural birth into a pure sayyed family. Since both options are possible (that he will descent as a human from heaven without being born again) I hold it more likely he will be born again naturally to a pious family and because of his status in relation to saint Mahdi (a.s) he will be the King.

However it might be may God make our hearts love truth more then our wishes

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There's no evidence that Jesus would be born into a sayyid family, this is conjecture. The hadiths say that he would descend and pray behind the Imam, who is not just a saint, but the designated leader of the Ummah in that age. Since Jesus was a priestly messiah, and his kingdom is not of this world, I don't see why he would need to be a King in this life.

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2 hours ago, sefket83 said:

 Why would a previous messenger and prophet (a.s) follow a saint?

 

"And about the Twelve Imams who will succeed him, the Holy Prophet declared:

Awwalona Muhammad - The First one of us is Muhammad

Ausatona Muhammad - The Middle one of us is Muhammad

Aakhirona Muhammad- The Last one of us is Muhammad

Kollona Muhammad Every one of us is Muhammad

i.e. Like the Holy Prophet Muhammad, all the Imams succeeding him, though not as apostles of God, are identical in their being the vicegerents of the Lord, on the earth with the same purity and the excellence, physical and spiritual, gifted to them by their Lord Himself.

http://www.al-islam.org/husayn-saviour-islam-sv-mir-ahmad-ali/divinely-planned-measure-everlasting-guidance-humanity#who-appoints-khalifatullah

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59 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

There's no evidence that Jesus would be born into a sayyid family, this is conjecture. The hadiths say that he would descend and pray behind the Imam, who is not just a saint, but the designated leader of the Ummah in that age. Since Jesus was a priestly messiah, and his kingdom is not of this world, I don't see why he would need to be a King in this life.

I accept your argumentation as correct because I base my argumentation on personal experience of Jesus (a.s) being the spiritual and physical King of mankind this is nothing I can use as proof or require a muslim to believe in.

God bless you for your taking time to explain and may he forgive me my arrogance

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42 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

"And about the Twelve Imams who will succeed him, the Holy Prophet declared:

Awwalona Muhammad - The First one of us is Muhammad

Ausatona Muhammad - The Middle one of us is Muhammad

Aakhirona Muhammad- The Last one of us is Muhammad

Kollona Muhammad Every one of us is Muhammad

i.e. Like the Holy Prophet Muhammad, all the Imams succeeding him, though not as apostles of God, are identical in their being the vicegerents of the Lord, on the earth with the same purity and the excellence, physical and spiritual, gifted to them by their Lord Himself.

http://www.al-islam.org/husayn-saviour-islam-sv-mir-ahmad-ali/divinely-planned-measure-everlasting-guidance-humanity#who-appoints-khalifatullah

Thank you follower of the praised seal of the Prophets the one whom perfected moral conduct. We know the household of Ahmed (saws) were purified thru the warning Quran and since they followed the sunnah oh the prophets with the best personal conduct they are considered as able to do more good then any other previous human. 

God bless you

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On 5/24/2016 at 10:56 PM, sefket83 said:

Based on shia sources Isa (a.s) will come back also Mahdi (a.s) together they will win over evil and rule the earth. I believe Isa (a.s) will be the King for all humans both physically and spiritually. Why would a previous messenger and prophet (a.s) follow a saint?

Peace belivers in truth

Imam Mahdi is the only messiah. Prophet Isa is the spirit of Truth. The Mahdi will come with Prophet Isa means the Imam will come with the spirit of truth.  At least that's how I read prophecies.  This is not the acceptable Shia view, if that was what you were seeking.

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4 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

Imam Mahdi is the only messiah. Prophet Isa is the spirit of Truth. The Mahdi will come with Prophet Isa means the Imam will come with the spirit of truth.  At least that's how I read prophecies.  This is not the acceptable Shia view, if that was what you were seeking.

Allah the most wise says do not deviate into sects and be proud of your differences. We hold Quran the word of God, people make unintentional mistakes. I hold Isa (a.s) as the spiritual King of humanity but Gud knows best. What function will Isa (a.s) have if he will come strenghtened with the Holy Spirit?

May God have mercy on us

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To answer this question, you would need to understand the mandate and scope of the Mission of Prophet Isa[as], and the mandate and scope of the mission of the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad[pbuhahp].

You would acknowledge that it was a supportive mandate, not Leadership mandate as compared of the one who, not only delivered the Final Version of  the Message but also established a framework for its execution and  implementation in a society/state.

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16 hours ago, sefket83 said:

Allah the most wise says do not deviate into sects and be proud of your differences. We hold Quran the word of God, people make unintentional mistakes. I hold Isa (a.s) as the spiritual King of humanity but Gud knows best. What function will Isa (a.s) have if he will come strenghtened with the Holy Spirit?

May God have mercy on us

Perhaps I wasn't clear.  I don't believe Prophet Isa will come back in the flesh.  I believe Imam Mahdi is the Son of Man he spoke about and he will come strengthened with the spirit of God.  I'll ask you the same question, what would the function of Prophet Isa be if Imam Mahdi is here to guide us?  Prophet Isa was an imam of his time as well. Imam Mahdi is not just for Muslims, he will reaffirm Prophet Isa's message just as much as Prophet Mohamed's.  Prophet Isa doesn't need to return for the same reasons that Prophet Mohamed doesn't.  Imam Mahdi is the representative of God, and therefore he stands for all prophets of God.  As for deviating into sects, I meant that my opinions are simply just that.  When I said that it wasn't the acceptable Shia view, I meant that the official Shia view have different interpretations and my views might be considered unacceptable according to their doctrines. I didn't mean to say that their views are unacceptable.  I follow the Prophet's household but I don't consider myself Sunni or Shia, my beliefs are different but their my own.  I don't mean to spread any false information or support any sect over another, just telling you the truth for me as I see it.  God knows best. 

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On 5/25/2016 at 4:30 AM, Prince of spacetime said:

Imam Mahdi is the only messiah. Prophet Isa is the spirit of Truth. The Mahdi will come with Prophet Isa means the Imam will come with the spirit of truth.  At least that's how I read prophecies.  This is not the acceptable Shia view, if that was what you were seeking.

Brother but doesnt the Quran call Jesus as The Messiah?

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On 5/24/2016 at 4:51 AM, Qa'im said:

First it is important to understand the concept of a Messiah. Messiah comes from the Hebrew word Moshiach and the Arabic word Messih, and it means "anointed one". In the way that kings and consecrated objects were anointed with oils, the scriptures talk of those whom God has anointed for sanctity and authority. In the Old Testament, the word "messiah" has been used to describe King David (2 Samuel 23:1), the Persian King Cyrus (Isaiah 24:38), and even inanimate objects.

Most notably, the Jewish scriptures (both the OT and other scriptures) talks of the messiahs to come in the End Times. Polymessianism is the idea that God will send multiple divinely-anointed figures, which was the dominant belief in Judaism before the medieval period. In the Dead Sea Scrolls and Zohar, the Jews understood that there would be two categories of eschatological Messiahs: the priestly and the kingly. The priestly are referred to as Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben Cohen, and the kingly is referred to as Messiah ben David.

The former, Messiah ben Joseph, is understood to be a figure or a line of figures who are righteous, meek, and suffering. The latter, Messiah ben David, is the kingly ruler in the End Times who would bring the world to monotheism and establish justice. The two go hand-in-hand, and both are part of the redemptive process. As you may know, Judaism holds the idea of dual authority: Moses was the political head and Aaron was his vizier, and likewise, the Jewish Kings had prophets underneath them who worked as their ministers and priests.

God's religion is one, but in what we call Judaism and Islam, there are a few points of contrast with what is called Christianity. The belief in polymessianism is one: the Quran calls Jesus (as) the descendant of Aaron (19:28), and that is hinted in the Gospels as well (Luke 2:4). In other words, Jesus and Mary came from a priestly Levi family, who were to be spiritual devotees to God. Since Jesus did not have a father, his lineage through his mother would make him a candidate to be the Messiah ben Cohen. This fits with Islamic eschatology, because Jesus is expected to return to rule alongside the Mahdi, who would be the Davidic Messiah. The head of God's utopia would be the Mahdi, while Jesus will be his deputy and his minister. Even in the New Testament, Jesus did not advertise himself as a king of this world ("my kingdom is not of this world"), but rather, a divine Servant of God.

Jesus is a beautiful figure in Islam. In our literature, Jesus emphasizes asceticism, spirituality, and the purification of our intention in seeking God.

So can we refer to The Mahdi as the Messiah? pbuh

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On 5/11/2017 at 10:58 PM, MohammadAli1993 said:

So can we refer to The Mahdi as the Messiah? pbuh

You certainly can, and will...Inshallah. It would be helpful if you think of "Messiah ben whoever" as the chosen one of the family of whoever. Similar to how people say the "Qaem of Aal Muhammad" instead of "messiah ben hashem".

From Wikipedia:

HaShem

"HaShem" redirects here. For other people with similar names, see Hashem.

It is common Jewish practice to restrict the use of the names of God to a liturgical context. In casual conversation some Jews, even when not speaking Hebrew, will call God HaShem (השם‎), which is Hebrew for "the Name" (cf. Leviticus 24:11 and Deuteronomy 28:58). Likewise, when quoting from the Tanakh or prayers, some pious Jews will replace Adonai with HaShem. For example, when making audio recordings of prayer services, HaShem[68] will generally be substituted for Adonai.

A popular expression containing this phrase is Baruch HaShem, meaning "Thank God" (literally, "Blessed be 'the Name'").[69]

....................

Now obviously this meaning is not accurate and we can see the context in which "Baruch" was used is consistent with the word "Banu" or "Son of"

 

From Abarim Publications:

The name Baruch in the Bible (old testament)

There are three men named Baruch in the Bible, but the best known is the son of Neriah, son of Mahseiah, and faithful friend and amanuensis of the prophet Jeremiah. This Baruch's brother Seraiah also worked for Jeremiah. He delivered a message to unspecified recipients in Babylon (Jeremiah 51:59).

 

The other two Baruchs are:

  • A son of Zabbai who worked on the wall after the return from Babylon (Nehemiah 3:30). Nehemiah also mentions a Baruch among the singers of the sealed document (10:6) but most sources equate him with the son of Zabbai.
  • A son of Col-hozeh, who took up residence in Jerusalem after the repairs (Nehemiah 11:5).

I hope this helps.

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On 5/11/2017 at 10:52 PM, MohammadAli1993 said:

Brother but doesnt the Quran call Jesus as The Messiah?

Yes, and he was. The issue here is that people confuse prophecies concerning a Son of Mary, with Issa the Son of Mary. In a regular conversation or writings it would be okay to assume these things but when it comes to prophecy interpretation, it is downright careless. But that is just my opinion and to each his own.

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2 minutes ago, Prince of spacetime said:

Yes, and he was. The issue here is that people confuse prophecies concerning a Son of Mary, with Issa the Son of Mary. In a regular conversation or writings it would be okay to assume these things but when it comes to prophecy interpretation, it is downright careless. But that is just my opinion and to each his own.

What you do you mean brother, do you mean that the Prophecies even in the Bible is about the Mahdi ajtfs? 

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1 minute ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

What you do you mean brother, do you mean that the Prophecies even in the Bible is about the Mahdi ajtfs? 

The Prophet and the Imams are from Banu HaShem. And of course! That is all Prophet Issa spoke of, the Occultation and Return of the King. Muslims would know this if they didn't bend over backwards to make the word "Mahdi" in the Quran mean "Craddle" ;) 

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10 minutes ago, Prince of spacetime said:

The Prophet and the Imams are from Banu HaShem. And of course! That is all Prophet Issa spoke of, the Occultation and Return of the King. Muslims would know this if they didn't bend over backwards to make the word "Mahdi" in the Quran mean "Craddle" ;) 

I don't get your point about the cradle part. Read this Ayat brother 

Surah Maryam, Verse 29:
فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا

But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle(mahdi) ?
(English - Shakir)

via iQuran

What links are there?? 

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Before I give you any links, Let me understand where you are at first. Do you see in 19:29 God is saying to us:

 "(Mary) "pointed" to Isa, so they asked her: "How can we speak to who was boyish at being in a craddle?"

I added the quotation marks because I am assuming you believe they are implied by the meaning as well, am I correct?

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1 hour ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

I don't get your point about the cradle part. Read this Ayat brother 

Surah Maryam, Verse 29:
فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا

But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle(mahdi) ?
(English - Shakir)

via iQuran

What links are there?? 

And I assume in 3:46 God is saying Jesus was preaching to the people as a baby AND he was able to do so as an adult ?

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On 5/14/2017 at 10:49 AM, Prince of spacetime said:

And I assume in 3:46 God is saying Jesus was preaching to the people as a baby AND he was able to do so as an adult ?

وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلًا وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ {46}

[Shakir 3:46] And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.

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6 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:
وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلًا وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ {46}

[Shakir 3:46] And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.

Yes I know how it is translated by other "human beings" but I was asking if it made sense to you? This entire verse is completely false. They even went as far as inventing a new "miracle" that even Christians never thought of attributing to Jesus in order to make it work. Here is some the words that have been twisted in their epic effort to distort the truth:

صبي : lacking experience

كهل : a man of wisdom

And if مهد means cradle, then what does مهاد mean?

And before you quote someone else's "opinion" please ask yourself if they have a solid ground to support their position, Because I can defend mine down to the very basic premise that "we exist".

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3 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

Yes I know how it is translated by other "human beings" but I was asking if it made sense to you? This entire verse is completely false. They even went as far as inventing a new "miracle" that even Christians never thought of attributing to Jesus in order to make it work. Here is some the words that have been twisted in their epic effort to distort the truth:

صبي : lacking experience

كهل : a man of wisdom

And if مهد means cradle, then what does مهاد mean?

And before you quote someone else's "opinion" please ask yourself if they have a solid ground to support their position, Because I can defend mine down to the very basic premise that "we exist".

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 45:
إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ

When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
(English - Shakir)

via iQuran

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 46:
وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلًا وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ

And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.
(English - Shakir)

via iQuran

When you read it in context then it makes sense. Jesus a.s did speak from the cradle which was foretold by Allah to Mary a.s 

So how do u translate this Ayat then 

Really curious 

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8 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

Yes I know how it is translated by other "human beings" but I was asking if it made sense to you? This entire verse is completely false. They even went as far as inventing a new "miracle" that even Christians never thought of attributing to Jesus in order to make it work. Here is some the words that have been twisted in their epic effort to distort the truth:

صبي : lacking experience

كهل : a man of wisdom

And if مهد means cradle, then what does مهاد mean?

And before you quote someone else's "opinion" please ask yourself if they have a solid ground to support their position, Because I can defend mine down to the very basic premise that "we exist".

[19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?
[19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
[19:31] And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
[19:32] And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
[19:33] Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
[19:34] Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
[19:35] It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is

 

Here is more evidence that Jesus spoke from the cradle 

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On 5/17/2017 at 9:34 AM, MohammadAli1993 said:

[19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?
[19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
[19:31] And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
[19:32] And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
[19:33] Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
[19:34] Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
[19:35] It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is

 

Here is more evidence that Jesus spoke from the cradle 

That's not evidence. You simply just restated the point we are debating!

On 5/17/2017 at 4:23 AM, MohammadAli1993 said:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 45:
إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ

When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
(English - Shakir)

via iQuran

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 46:
وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلًا وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ

And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.
(English - Shakir)

via iQuran

When you read it in context then it makes sense. Jesus a.s did speak from the cradle which was foretold by Allah to Mary a.s 

So how do u translate this Ayat then 

Really curious 

I read it as: He preached of The Mahdi, full of wisdom, and among the righteous. See how easy that was? No invention of a "miracle" was required. The issue is, you don't want to believe The Mahdi was that big of a Deal and that's fine. But I assure you the Ancients knew otherwise.   

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16 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

That's not evidence. You simply just restated the point we are debating!

I read it as: He preached of The Mahdi, full of wisdom, and among the righteous. See how easy that was? No invention of a "miracle" was required. The issue is, you don't want to believe The Mahdi was that big of a Deal and that's fine. But I assure you the Ancients knew otherwise.   

the word في cannot be translated as "about" the way you translated it. Plus read this Ayat

 [19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَنْ كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا {29}

Please Brother but be honest to yourself 

Now you are telling me that the ayat says that "How can we talk to one who speaks about the Mahdi, a young boy?" 

That doesnt even make any sense. What makes more sense, cradle or Mahdi (ajtfs)? 

Dont bring a straw-man please 

Edited by MohammadAli1993
Straw-man detected
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2 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

the word في cannot be translated as "about" the way you translated it. Plus read this Ayat

 [19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَنْ كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا {29}

Please Brother but be honest to yourself 

Now you are telling me that the ayat says that "How can we talk to one who speaks about the Mahdi, a young boy?" 

That doesnt even make any sense. What makes more sense, cradle or Mahdi (ajtfs)? 

Dont bring a straw-man please 

That was not a straw man, I simply eliminated the impossible and whatever was left, however improbable, must be true.

What does the word "في" mean in this verse:

وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَنْ يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُنِيرٍ 

"اشارة" does not mean "point with her finger" to something present or next to her, it means "pointed them in the proper direction to reach him", a trip or a road or a path of any sort is implied with the use of this word. Similar to the use of the word "swimming" implies presence of water. Today when you buy a bus ticket, or a train or plane ticket in Arabic speaking countries. It is called a "تاشيرة".

Just like كهل was mixed up to mean old because usually old people are wise, the same mix up happened (intentionally perpetrated) with other words to refer to age when they were referring to something else.

صبي: is an "ADJECTIVE" to convey the meaning "lacking experience". It is the word used to describe young lads in bakeries and other similar small shops in the middle east (at least used to) which overtime turned into a means to call on them "Ya Sabi". And because these trainees are usually young boys learning a trade, the meaning of the word got mixed up with its "Correlation" rather than its "dependency". Another example would be women who say my daughter are صبايا which means are still fragile "age" but they are certainly not children or babies, because similar to the boys' case same word is also used to convey the meaning that they are old enough to get married or learn a trade as per examples I provided. 

So if you insist on wanting to interpret Mahdi as a cradle, then you also have to accept the meaning "lacks experience at being in a cradle" because grammar dictates that it must be read as an adverb. So is that what you are trying to tell me? That God is telling us Prophet Isa didn't know how to sit in a cradle? And before you go ahead and start bending and inventing rules for grammar, consider that even if we accept "صبي" means boy. Then why is Boy Isa sitting in a cradle? Let me guess...boy means baby all of a sudden?

And all this still doesn't answer the biggest question of all, which you so conveniently overlooked as if it's not there. What does "مهاد" mean?

And while you try to look that up, feel free to explain to me how Prophet Isa was "able to talk" to people as an old man if he was "raised up to heaven" when he was in his early 30's? 

Clearly MAHDI is what makes sense. My question to you is why does what you think make sense? try answering that without using the phrase "because X says so" otherwise why don't you just replace that X with me and accept something that doesn't contradict itself? or simply point out where I'm being dishonest with myself and save me from my delusions...I'm open to either or. 

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On 5/25/2016 at 8:30 AM, Prince of spacetime said:

Imam Mahdi is the only messiah. Prophet Isa is the spirit of Truth. The Mahdi will come with Prophet Isa means the Imam will come with the spirit of truth.  At least that's how I read prophecies.  This is not the acceptable Shia view, if that was what you were seeking.

What will be the role of Isa a.s when he return? Who will kill dajjal? Who will die first of the two, Isa a.s or Mahdi a.s? Who will be the ruler after Mahdi a.s? etc

Any authentic shia narrations on this?

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1 hour ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

What will be the role of Isa a.s when he return? Who will kill dajjal? Who will die first of the two, Isa a.s or Mahdi a.s? Who will be the ruler after Mahdi a.s? etc

Any authentic shia narrations on this?

 

Well let me ask you this: If you are reading a cook book and one of the instructions for making a pie said:

-Cut a lemon in half.

Would you go stab Don Lemon with a knife?

The answer is obviously no, and the reason you don't is because you always consider the context of these statements. Not only the context within the sentence or page, because even those must be taken into the context of the book itself. In simpler terms, the meaning of a word is like a russian doll in a center of a series of layers that limit the context (narrow down possible meanings) based on the year the book was written, knowledge of the author, purpose of the book etc... So in order to trully grasp the Intention of the author you have to have acknowledge all these things. Otherwise every physics book would be seen as a children's coloring book full of nonsense and pictures. Take the Qur'an for example, if you really want to understand it, you must read it with the understanding that it is God's word and it is meant to provide guidance. If you don't believe the Qur'an is the word of God then you can make that assessment after you have read it. That means you must read in the context of a divine book meant to provide signs not all the equations for creation. Take Moses and "splitting" the sea for example, when I read that, I understand God gave Moses the means to find a narrow path through the water where it is shallow enough to be measured using his staff and thus by using his staff as dipstick he was able to navigate his people across this water while the Pharoah's army with their chariots and heavy gears couldn't. For me personally, this takes care of 4 discrepancy:

1- Why would God ask him to throw his stick to perform the miracle? couldn't God use the "be" and it "is" approach?

2- How stupid are these "smartest and wisest of Egypt's elite be" be when they see Moses split open the ocean in the Cinematic Version accepted today that they still persisted on following them?

3- Miracles of this nature are impossible, not because God can't perform them, but because God designed our minds that if they were to happen we would not be able to conceive them - And I can scientifically prove this.

4- Why did the Israelites struggle and complain about the food, they must have stockpiled enough food in anticipation for their journey? No?

Similarly, prophecies are to be read in context of what they are-PROPHECIES. A prophecy is called so because it requires Interpretation to be solved, if it didn't require interpretation it would be called a prediction or something else. 

But if consistency isn't your main source for evidence, then here's a hadith from my family:

Quote

Abu Bashir says: I heard Imam Muhammad al-Baqr say: "He said: When the Mahdi appears he will follow in the path of the Messenger of God. Only he [the Mahdi] can explain the works of the Messenger of God.

Muhammad ibn Ibrahim Nomani: 191

And I explained the meaning of this hadith in light of its spiritual context. I would tell you who the Son of Mary and Yamani, who are Imam Mahdi's supporters, using your own hadiths as evidence. But what's the point, you'll end up giving me your opinion or somebody else's and ignore all the evidence. You (as in the collective "muslims"). 

PS. Only you can kill the dajjal. I can only show you the means to do it by freeing yourself from him. 

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The Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. said that there will be no Prophet after him s.a.w.a.s.

The Return of Christ belief is just a belief that crept in from converted christians or muslims influenced by christians who started to mix up things. The belief in the Return of Christ isn't Shirk so for them it seemed compatible with islam.

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

The Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. said that there will be no Prophet after him s.a.w.a.s.

The Return of Christ belief is just a belief that crept in from converted christians or muslims influenced by christians who started to mix up things. The belief in the Return of Christ isn't Shirk so for them it seemed compatible with islam.

What is your evidence for this? The Son of Mary is one of Imam Mahdi's Horsemen of the end times. He is likened to the Son of Mary as a coded message for similar reasons as those that liken Imam Mahdi to prophet Muhammad. Descent from the sky pertains to "Qadar", not a man flying down. And if what you are saying is true then who is that delivering God's final warnings to Saudi, Israel, and Rome?

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

The Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. said that there will be no Prophet after him s.a.w.a.s.

The Return of Christ belief is just a belief that crept in from converted christians or muslims influenced by christians who started to mix up things. The belief in the Return of Christ isn't Shirk so for them it seemed compatible with islam.

I meant there is a Son of Mary, but not a Prophet Isa if I misunderstood you.

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13 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

Well let me ask you this: If you are reading a cook book and one of the instructions for making a pie said:

-Cut a lemon in half.

Would you go stab Don Lemon with a knife?

The answer is obviously no, and the reason you don't is because you always consider the context of these statements. Not only the context within the sentence or page, because even those must be taken into the context of the book itself. In simpler terms, the meaning of a word is like a russian doll in a center of a series of layers that limit the context (narrow down possible meanings) based on the year the book was written, knowledge of the author, purpose of the book etc... So in order to trully grasp the Intention of the author you have to have acknowledge all these things. Otherwise every physics book would be seen as a children's coloring book full of nonsense and pictures. Take the Qur'an for example, if you really want to understand it, you must read it with the understanding that it is God's word and it is meant to provide guidance. If you don't believe the Qur'an is the word of God then you can make that assessment after you have read it. That means you must read in the context of a divine book meant to provide signs not all the equations for creation. Take Moses and "splitting" the sea for example, when I read that, I understand God gave Moses the means to find a narrow path through the water where it is shallow enough to be measured using his staff and thus by using his staff as dipstick he was able to navigate his people across this water while the Pharoah's army with their chariots and heavy gears couldn't. For me personally, this takes care of 4 discrepancy:

1- Why would God ask him to throw his stick to perform the miracle? couldn't God use the "be" and it "is" approach?

2- How stupid are these "smartest and wisest of Egypt's elite be" be when they see Moses split open the ocean in the Cinematic Version accepted today that they still persisted on following them?

3- Miracles of this nature are impossible, not because God can't perform them, but because God designed our minds that if they were to happen we would not be able to conceive them - And I can scientifically prove this.

4- Why did the Israelites struggle and complain about the food, they must have stockpiled enough food in anticipation for their journey? No?

Similarly, prophecies are to be read in context of what they are-PROPHECIES. A prophecy is called so because it requires Interpretation to be solved, if it didn't require interpretation it would be called a prediction or something else. 

But if consistency isn't your main source for evidence, then here's a hadith from my family:

Muhammad ibn Ibrahim Nomani: 191

And I explained the meaning of this hadith in light of its spiritual context. I would tell you who the Son of Mary and Yamani, who are Imam Mahdi's supporters, using your own hadiths as evidence. But what's the point, you'll end up giving me your opinion or somebody else's and ignore all the evidence. You (as in the collective "muslims"). 

PS. Only you can kill the dajjal. I can only show you the means to do it by freeing yourself from him. 

Every body knows and have seen/eaten a lemon but only a few of them knows about Don Lemon. Here again Lemon seems his surname. Moreover, every cook book gives full detailed instructions along with pictures. So no worries. Not even a fool will do this. As Don Lemon is not everywhere.

It wanst a good example at all. Anyways!

Also none of your discrepancies matches with what I asked. I did not ask for why or how, rather very basic simple questions. I have seen many threads regarding the minute details about the 12th Imam like following,

 

 

 

So I thought there would also be narrations about these issues.

14 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

What will be the role of Isa a.s when he return? Who will kill dajjal? Who will die first of the two, Isa a.s or Mahdi a.s? Who will be the ruler after Mahdi a.s? etc

But you are saying obviously No.

Edited by Ya Allah Madad
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7 hours ago, Prince of spacetime said:

 

Any words on this? Is this acceptable to pray and hasten for his appearance? While there are many prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

 

SUBTITLES

1
00:00:00,190 --> 00:00:05,468
Imam Sadiq (a.s.) says if I met Mahdi

2
00:00:05,468 --> 00:00:10,568
I would serve him all my life. Innocent Imam says that.

3
00:00:10,574 --> 00:00:12,674
I swear to God this is feasible,

4
00:00:13,095 --> 00:00:15,422
these events match with the signs.

5
00:00:15,422 --> 00:00:17,896
I don't want to match them explicitly,

6
00:00:17,897 --> 00:00:20,497
but we can consider a probability, don't we!

7
00:00:20,518 --> 00:00:24,734
Go and read the book of Haj Sheikh Ali Koorani (Age of Arrival)

8
00:00:24,734 --> 00:00:27,293
and see for yourself that the signs are
out there matched with the events.

9
00:00:27,293 --> 00:00:30,787
Even if Zohoor (the arrival) happens 1000 years later,

10
00:00:30,787 --> 00:00:34,287
We will abide by our support, no problem, but

11
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Dear God, please ! this is unfair!

12
00:00:40,122 --> 00:00:51,238
[People Crying ...]

13
00:00:52,886 --> 00:00:55,829
In old times, 1000 years ago, if somebody

14
00:00:55,830 --> 00:00:58,899
from khorasan, wanted to visit Imam Sadiq (a.s.)

15
00:00:58,899 --> 00:01:01,435
, six months of travelling was nothing.

16
00:01:01,544 --> 00:01:04,893
They went by donkey, mule... By beast, pack animal...

17
00:01:04,893 --> 00:01:07,477
It was OK, after six months, they eventually visited their Imam.

18
00:01:07,477 --> 00:01:13,069
Where do we go [to visit our imam]?  To where?

19
00:01:13,069 --> 00:01:17,654
How many times do we need to look for him everywhere?

20
00:01:17,729 --> 00:01:20,730
[Reading parts of Dua-al-Eftetah]

21
00:01:20,731 --> 00:01:24,231
O Lord, we are complainants

22
00:01:24,782 --> 00:01:27,921
We miss our prophet.

23
00:01:29,199 --> 00:01:31,531
Salman (R.t.) met his prophet,

24
00:01:31,571 --> 00:01:34,069
so did Aboozar (R.t.), but we haven’t yet.

25
00:01:34,069 --> 00:01:39,000
[Continuing Dua]
Our guardian (Imam) is absent too.

26
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,658
And our enemies are so many

27
00:01:44,326 --> 00:01:48,076
And we are few.

28
00:01:48,703 --> 00:01:52,003
Where is our lord?

29
00:01:52,003 --> 00:01:54,178
Where is our motive?

30
00:01:54,178 --> 00:01:56,432
Where is our proof?

31
00:01:56,432 --> 00:01:58,839
Where is our Imam?

32
00:01:58,839 --> 00:02:01,918
Where is Hasan (a.s.) and where is Hussain (a.s.)?

33
00:02:01,918 --> 00:02:04,624
Where are sons of Hussain (a.s)?

34
00:02:04,624 --> 00:02:07,664
Righteous ones after righteous;

35
00:02:07,664 --> 00:02:09,892
Honest ones after honest.

36
00:02:09,892 --> 00:02:11,366
Do you really want to mourn?

37
00:02:11,366 --> 00:02:17,087
Where is the revenger of the one slain in Karbala?

38
00:02:17,090 --> 00:02:23,897
Where is the one who demands
the Prophets and their sons’ blood.

39
00:02:24,009 --> 00:02:32,168
O Lord, where is Baqiatollah (Imam Mahdi)?

40
00:02:33,379 --> 00:02:37,961
O God, I don't know how to say, I am not a eulogist,

41
00:02:37,961 --> 00:02:40,761
I just say it simply... with my own words:

42
00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:46,731
O God, we did wrong, please let he come

43
00:02:47,836 --> 00:02:51,724
What else this people need to do?

44
00:02:51,724 --> 00:02:55,597
They sacrificed two or three hundred thousands
 ... we will stand for him

45
00:02:56,008 --> 00:02:58,303
We will stand for him! Swear to GOD

46
00:02:58,303 --> 00:03:01,285
We are standing for Velayat-e-Faqih (Imam Khamenei),

47
00:03:01,285 --> 00:03:04,556
Surly we will stand for Vali e Masoom
(the innocent one) ... God witnesses us

48
00:03:04,556 --> 00:03:08,573
We will stand... Please send him

49
00:03:09,447 --> 00:03:12,737
[ Reading Farsi Poem... ]

50
00:03:12,737 --> 00:03:17,460
The love was a trouble but we didn't know

51
00:03:17,460 --> 00:03:21,964
And its result is nothing but pain yet we didn't know

52
00:03:22,690 --> 00:03:27,503
We flew away but we trapped, brought down again

53
00:03:27,503 --> 00:03:30,891
Having no wings, was the term [of flying] but we didn’t know

54
00:03:30,891 --> 00:03:35,050
The sky had seen you long but

55
00:03:35,050 --> 00:03:39,023
Our share was ignorance yet we didn't know

56
00:03:39,336 --> 00:03:47,912
The water and the Sweep at our doorstep
used to see you Passing, but we didn't know

57
00:03:47,912 --> 00:03:53,334
This long awaiting has made me worried

58
00:03:54,446 --> 00:03:58,101
This long awaiting has made me worried

59
00:03:58,101 --> 00:04:03,562
The love was a trouble but we didn't know

60
00:04:03,882 --> 00:04:09,112
O Dear Mahdi! No one understood distress of your eyes

61
00:04:09,992 --> 00:04:13,342
No one understood distress of your eyes

62
00:04:13,342 --> 00:04:18,227
No one understood tears of your eyes at nights

63
00:04:18,227 --> 00:04:21,427
We haven’t suffered as much as you had

64
00:04:21,428 --> 00:04:26,038
We didn't cry day and night as you did

65
00:04:26,162 --> 00:04:30,967
It is not bad if you visit us for these favors

66
00:04:30,967 --> 00:04:34,442
It is not bad if you visit us for these favors

67
00:04:34,442 --> 00:04:38,797
It is not bad if you keep me waiting for sometimes.

68
00:04:38,797 --> 00:04:43,107
I'm worried that you return after my death

69
00:04:44,702 --> 00:04:48,947
I'm worried that you return after my death

70
00:04:52,132 --> 00:04:59,222
[I'm worried that] you return at my funeral over my coffin

71
00:05:00,577 --> 00:05:05,427
O Sir! Are you waiting for us to die?

72
00:05:07,202 --> 00:05:10,002
O Sir! Are you waiting for us to die?

73
00:05:10,497 --> 00:05:17,317
Will you return if your expectants die?

74
00:05:17,987 --> 00:05:25,717
I want your calmness at Friday night from my heart

75
00:05:25,717 --> 00:05:27,637
I don't want anything else

76
00:05:27,637 --> 00:05:30,467
I want your calmness at Friday night from my heart

77
00:05:30,467 --> 00:05:35,672
Tomorrow of that night I want to be next to you

78
00:05:35,672 --> 00:05:40,432
Are we less than that black slave?
(referring to Imam Hossein slave on Ashoura named Jowayn)

79
00:05:40,432 --> 00:05:44,227
He was sharpening his sword during a night

80
00:05:44,392 --> 00:05:46,457
He was sharpening his sword during a night

81
00:05:46,642 --> 00:05:50,982
He went to battle field... when he came back...

82
00:05:51,422 --> 00:05:56,692
because of thirstiness, the blood he lost,
he got anesthetized and fell down

83
00:05:56,692 --> 00:06:00,492
Suddenly some kind of heat woke him up...

84
00:06:00,492 --> 00:06:05,832
He looked, his Imam had put his cheek on his cheek

85
00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:08,572
[ Continuing the Poem ...]

86
00:06:08,972 --> 00:06:14,372
We said "when you've been absent the dawn took so long"

87
00:06:14,407 --> 00:06:19,759
You went to come. But your return is being long.

88
00:06:19,759 --> 00:06:25,649
Tonight all we say is this: alright I admit it

89
00:06:25,649 --> 00:06:29,009
No problem, predecessors did something and you took this bless from them

90
00:06:29,009 --> 00:06:32,184
I don't want to be counted like them...

91
00:06:32,184 --> 00:06:34,969
I wanna settle my account  ,

92
00:06:34,969 --> 00:06:37,669
First, I wanna settle my accounts with myself;

93
00:06:37,670 --> 00:06:41,699
I was wrong and regretful! I didn't understand.

94
00:06:41,699 --> 00:06:44,330
O God, look... I did not want

95
00:06:44,331 --> 00:06:47,044
to commit sin and I didn't like to.

96
00:06:47,044 --> 00:06:49,244
After committing my sin, I felt regret

97
00:06:49,244 --> 00:06:50,939
You are witness on that, it is not

98
00:06:50,940 --> 00:06:52,634
possible to hide something from you

99
00:06:52,634 --> 00:06:55,908
After that sin... I got sad...

100
00:06:55,909 --> 00:07:00,279
I don't have the willpower. but I want to...

101
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,324
This Satan does not let me ...
O God Please help me ...

102
00:07:04,324 --> 00:07:06,824
O Lord, please let us find him...

103
00:07:06,830 --> 00:07:09,830
[Reading a Dua from Mafatih-Al-Jinan
wich is read after visiting Imam Reza (a.s) shrine]

104
00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:12,374
O God I ask you for forgiveness ...
 while admitting my sin

105
00:07:12,374 --> 00:07:15,574
O God I ask you for forgiveness ...
 and I'm insisting on that.

106
00:07:15,574 --> 00:07:18,669
I ask you for your forgiveness ...
asking with shame and pardon

107
00:07:18,669 --> 00:07:21,654
I ask you for forgiveness ...
asking hopefully

108
00:07:21,654 --> 00:07:24,454
I ask you for your forgiveness ...
returning to you

109
00:07:24,454 --> 00:07:27,854
I ask you for your forgiveness ...
asking of contrition and penance

110
00:07:27,854 --> 00:07:32,734
I ask you for forgiveness ...
like a runaway that is running from you to you!

111
00:07:32,734 --> 00:07:36,349
Forgive us, O Most Merciful

 

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Every body knows and have seen/eaten a lemon but only a few of them knows about Don Lemon. Here again Lemon seems his surname. Moreover, every cook book gives full detailed instructions along with pictures. So no worries. Not even a fool will do this. As Don Lemon is not everywhere.

It wanst a good example at all. Anyways!

Also none of your discrepancies matches with what I asked. I did not ask for why or how, rather very basic simple questions. I have seen many threads regarding the minute details about the 12th Imam like following,

The reason why you thought this was a bad example was because you, ironically, didn't understand the context. You are looking at things with one eye as in through a "Relative" angle, while my answers try to address the "Absolute" depending how in depth the forum allows me. "you said everybody knows....." that's a relative statement! What if you don't speak English? you are perhaps more likely to recognize the a TV personalities name than the names of vegetables in a foreign language, no? And as I said, if a statement or line of reasoning is always always true, it cannot be used in an argument. You said the "cook book has pictures and ......" this means you are agreeing with me but you just don't know it. The reason I provided the cook book example was to show the odd approach of treating a prophecy in a different context then PROPHECY! meaning just like you would know a lemon (even if you don't know what a lemon is!!!!) you still wouldn't think it means the CNN anchor. By the same logic, the prophecy discussing a Son of Mary, should be taken as a prophecy about a person referred to as Son of Mary as a clue. Because to think it must mean Prophet Jesus will "Return from the dead-BIOLOGICALY" and physically descend from the sky would be following the exact same logic that would result in Don Lemon covering a stabbing Story about himself. So the point of the example is to not try to connect dots based on what you know and break a thousand laws of God and Nature in the process!

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