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ShiaMan14

Question to Sunni Brothers

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On 6/20/2016 at 0:10 PM, wmehar2 said:

Instead of constructing a legitimate argument, you turn 180 degrees and prove the Shia's point by making your ignorance known to everyone.   The entire reason for this point was to show your complete and utter lack of capacity to learn and dispel misconceptions of them, so as not to feel hostile towards them.

The OP was asking for confirmation of Sunni support of Shia coexistence, and condemnation of extremist ideology.  Instead of actually trying convey that and find the Sunni leaders/scholars who are condemning and speaking out against ISIS, the ones especially who've received death threats from them such as Yasir Qadhi, Dr. Naik, Shoaib Webb, Hamza Yusuf, or individuals mentioned in this article: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/14/isis-targets-american-imams-for-believing-muslims-can-thrive-in-u-s.html or a British Muslim https://gotoground.com/muslim-scholar-receives-death-threats-from-isis-supporters/ , you're just saying without proving fact. 

or How about the 50 million Sunni muslim strong effort in Indonesia? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/indonesian-muslims-counter-isis_us_565c737ae4b072e9d1c26bda

These Shia' are genuinely concerned and distrustful of Sunni's because, unfortunately, they've only ever been attacked by those claiming the Sunni fabric.  So they want to know how they can have the trust of Sunni's? 

You could also try mentioning the front in Iraq where there are actual Sunni's and Shia's fighting against Da3sh together, that in itself is a definition of Sunni's fighting against extreme Ideology.  Or why not ask them why there's millions of Sunni' refugee families fleeing from Da3sh rule.  We sponsor and take care of 18 refugee families, I can ask them and write their views here as to why despite their being Sunni, that they believe Da3sh is screwed up.

Some can misconstrue OP's post as trying to fan flames and create a higher divide, since Sunni's are not all unified in their thinking and doctrines of the opinion of Shia' and extremist violence.  Because Shia's don't seem to understand being Sunni has nothing to do with their opinion of History and what they think of sectarianism. 

Of course the Shia' aren't going to understand most "Sunni" point of view, because Sunni' point of view tells the Sunni's that extremist ideology has nothing to do with them.  And they can argue this by saying those are committing extremist/terrorism using that ideology are not even following the central core tenets of Sunnism.   

And they wouldn't be wrong, because that includes following the Quran first above Sunni Hadeeth.  Instead why not appeal to the concerned Shia' brothers by emphasizing that Da3sh doesn't give 2 damns about religion, and they care only for consolidating their power.  Where is the sincerity in faith displayed by Da3sh?  They take all the food, take all the women, boss people around stroking their egos, these traits are not attributable to either Sunni or Shia' islam.  No people like these extremists are not influenced by extreme books/ hadeeth or the Quran, because if they were influenced by the Quran and God sincerely to begin with, they would have read the Quran and understood what they were doing is wrong.  They only seek to do what they want by finding false justification/misquotation from our narratives.  No different than some ignorant hic from the South trying to pull hateful verses from our Qu'ran out of context. 

It doesn't matter if you're sunni, Shia', or whatever.  If you're going to commit an evil in your heart, you won't care what religion you follow.  Instead of trying to blame using sectarian logic, why not find commonalities and agreeable principles that you both stand on.  You both know you wouldn't kill each other senseless, rape women, pillage and control imposing on others with oppression.  It doesn't matter who the hell you are, sunni/shia/muslim, because the aforementioned are haram in both sects.  

Unfortunately like the non-muslims, it seems @shiaman14 wants to see you Sunni's condemn, and actively speak out against this stuff as if you're partly responsible or to blame.  In order to separate himself from the Sunnis and demonstrate him and other Shia' have nothing to do with it.  Which unfortunately is completely 100% counter-productive to Sunni and Shia' unity.   

 Rightly so, if one studies the average ISIS defector, they're washed up juveniles, or new converts isolated from society with extreme mental vulnerabilities. So, of course they make easy pray.  So where can there even be room for debate or argument?   The two sides here are too far from perspective and are indeed ignorant of each other, there's going to be no consensus or listening to of the other party. 

Keep in mind Shia' you are also viewing the sunni's with a warped lenses.  The Law of Large Numbers alone, is enough to indicate that probabilistic wise, that we are going to see more extremists come from the Sunni side of the fence.    85% of the muslim world, assumed to be sunni's, thats 1.445 Billion Sunni's.  And a little less than 270 million Shia'.   Which means on a statistical perspective alone, Sunni's would be 5.7x more likely in terms of population proportion alone to be guilty of committing acts of terrorism.  Something that I don't believe any of you consider.  (another way of saying for each shia' extremist there are 5.7 more sunni extremists)

But why should the Shia' care?  They can't literally trust anyone from the Sunni side, why should they?   It's not as though they ever started beef with them and tried to kill them off throughout history, which unfortunately happened to them.  So they'll make the same conclusion as non-muslims do about all muslims, and so and out of fear, they will bucket the Sunni's as a not a trustworthy group.

Just know @shiaman14, that the non-muslims don't see any prominent muslim scholars or sheikhs condemning violence, the same way you're not seeing prominent sunni's denounce and condemn them.  You see what you want to see, you hear what you want to hear. 

 

I partly agree with you brother @wmehar2.

1) I am smart enough to know that 1.2 billion sunnis are not to be blamed for the actions of a few thousand (may 500K tops). It so happens that one of my best friends is Sunni.

2) There are a lot of Sunni speakers condemning violence by extremists. 

3) My post/question was specifically to the Sunni brothers who frequent ShiaChat. Given that we all have limited amounts of time to spend on 'dawah', I wanted to know if the Sunnis on ShiaChat spend equal time on other Sunni or specifically Wahabi/Salafi sites condemning extremism and showing them the errors of their ways or do they consider 'educating' the shia a better cause. That is the extent of my question? While it is great that plenty of scholars and preachers are speaking out against terrorism, I believe it should be done at the individual basis as well.

Let's face it - the Wahabis/Salafis are a deviant Sunni sect and while they give Islam in general a bad name, they specifically give Sunni Islam a bad name so I would have thought it is an incumbent duty of every Sunni to condemn them using all avenues including social media.

But then we get people like @Wisdom007 and @nusantara...

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11 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Let's face it - the Wahabis/Salafis are a deviant Sunni sect and while they give Islam in general a bad name, they specifically give Sunni Islam a bad name so I would have thought it is an incumbent duty of every Sunni to condemn them using all avenues including social media.

I'll agree to the extent that I would say  .." There are Wahabi's/Salafi's that are misrepresenting the Sunni Sect.. ..."

Unfortunately,  the Salafi powers hold strings of money to other poor Sunni countries to spit in their mouth the Saudi rhetoric.  Though as you already know @shiaman14, sectarian differences I don't believe should be the focus.

I do believe highlighting hypocrisies of the Salafi state(s), making apparent extreme terrorists organizations blatant violations of the Qu'ran would be the right way to combat extreme/perverted Salafist Ideology than just speaking out against it on social media alone.  I believe this is more beneficial to all muslims from all sects, and beneficial to non-muslims unacquainted with Islam. 

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7 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I'll agree to the extent that I would say  .." There are Wahabi's/Salafi's that are misrepresenting the Sunni Sect.. ..."

Agree 100%

7 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Unfortunately,  the Salafi powers hold strings of money to other poor Sunni countries to spit in their mouth the Saudi rhetoric.  Though as you already know @shiaman14, sectarian differences I don't believe should be the focus.

Agree 100%

7 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I do believe highlighting hypocrisies of the Salafi state(s), making apparent extreme terrorists organizations blatant violations of the Qu'ran would be the right way to combat extreme/perverted Salafist Ideology than just speaking out against it on social media alone.  I believe this is more beneficial to all muslims from all sects, and beneficial to non-muslims unacquainted with Islam. 

But this is what I am asking. What is the average Sunni who has time to spend on ShiaChat doing about "highlighting hypocrisies of the Salafi state(s), making apparent extreme terrorists organizations blatant violations of the Qu'ran would be the right way to combat extreme/perverted Salafist Ideology" - that is all I am trying to find out.

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5 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

But this is what I am asking. What is the average Sunni who has time to spend on ShiaChat doing about "highlighting hypocrisies of the Salafi state(s), making apparent extreme terrorists organizations blatant violations of the Qu'ran would be the right way to combat extreme/perverted Salafist Ideology" - that is all I am trying to find out.

You've been here longer than I have, you definitely would know better than I about what Sunni' brothers have come here doing.  To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if some Sunni trolls came here on a mission to convert.  Their efforts should be elsewhere, such as these issues, which of course are not really brought to their attention. 

So, that's a good question, let's not all get lost in the prior immaterial content, other than your question as I believe that's the most pertinent to the OP.  

I'd like to hear the answer to this as well. 

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11 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

You've been here longer than I have, you definitely would know better than I about what Sunni' brothers have come here doing.  To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if some Sunni trolls came here on a mission to convert.  Their efforts should be elsewhere, such as these issues, which of course are not really brought to their attention. 

So, that's a good question, let's not all get lost in the prior immaterial content, other than your question as I believe that's the most pertinent to the OP.  

I'd like to hear the answer to this as well. 

I have been waiting since May 17th on this one :)

Prior to spending time (probably too much) on ShiaChat, I used to frequent Sunni sites but each one of them banned me either just for the name ShiaMan or because they couldn't handle the truth. I may seem overly combative on ShiaChat at times...lingering effects from those written wars.

See the conversation (red boxes)riveting conversation.jpg I had on FB regarding some post. This about sums up everything for me.

Edited by shiaman14

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11 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

I have been waiting since May 17th on this one :)

Prior to spending time (probably too much) on ShiaChat, I used to frequent Sunni sites but each one of them banned me either just for the name ShiaMan or because they couldn't handle the truth. I may seem overly combative on ShiaChat at times...lingering effects from those written wars.

See the conversation (red boxes)riveting conversation.jpg I had on FB regarding some post. This about sums up everything for me.

Tide is much better than Surf Excel.  I wish I could have interjected in that Facebook Convo.  But these people prove my point.  When god asks us not to ascribe other partners to him, it also means not blindly following  some man they don't know whose a "scholar".

"I don't want to use my brain" -   There's consequences for not using your brain.

If I don't get banned maybe I can attempt to rejoin a Sunni forum.  See how long I last. 

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31 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Tide is much better than Surf Excel.  I wish I could have interjected in that Facebook Convo.  But these people prove my point.  When god asks us not to ascribe other partners to him, it also means not blindly following  some man they don't know whose a "scholar".

LOL. I cut out that the piece of conversation where he told me to wash my mouth with Surf Excel. That's the tide reference. :) 

There are two questions that no one has ever been able to answer.

1) What came first - chicken or egg?

2) Do stupid people become wahabi or do wahabis become stupid?

I guess we will never know.

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5 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

You've been here longer than I have, you definitely would know better than I about what Sunni' brothers have come here doing.  To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if some Sunni trolls came here on a mission to convert. 

 

AssalamAlaikum brothers,   @wmehar2    @shiaman14

                                   im ready to convert if i find truth.                                                                                      Will  you  change brother , if you find what you were   believing is false    ?    

How many People in Shiachat Will Convert  if people found out what they   believing is false      ?  

Truth is Simple.

or

Do you think God will make it complex.

 

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6 minutes ago, reasoner said:

AssalamAlaikum brothers,   @wmehar2    @shiaman14

                                   im ready to convert if i find truth.                                                                                      Will  you  change brother , if you find what you were   believing is false    ?    

How many People in Shiachat Will Convert  if people found out what they   believing is false      ?  

Truth is Simple.

or

Do you think God will make it complex.

 

 

I'm of the mind neither side needs to convert, because of  4:59

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

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5 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

 But these people prove my point.  When god asks us not to ascribe other partners to him, it also means not blindly following  some man they don't know whose a "scholar".

"I don't want to use my brain" -   There's consequences for not using your brain.

If I don't get banned maybe I can attempt to rejoin a Sunni forum.  See how long I last. 

AssalamAlaikum Brother  @wmehar2

Exactly we human should use our brain.  Not just follow blindly some hazrats,imams or preist  on  everything. hazrats,imams or preist  are just people not prophets.     

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9 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I'm of the mind neither side needs to convert, because of  4:59

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

AssalamAlaikum brother  @wmehar2

if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger,...    (full  stop)

The problem is nobody is disagreeing with imams or hazarats.....(sheep)(following blind on everything)

if you disagree over anything in 4:59--------------->  What does it  mean 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, reasoner said:

AssalamAlaikum brother  @wmehar2

if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger,...    (full  stop)

The problem is nobody is disagreeing with imams or hazarats.....(sheep)(following blind on everything)

if you disagree over anything in 4:59--------------->  What does it  mean 

 

 

perhaps in matters of religious interpretation, over jurisprudence, maybe extrapolate that to sunni scholars differing with shia; scholars, to me the specifics don't mean as much as the message this verse tells us, which is to prioritize peace among ourselves.  So as long as we believe in Allah, and the last day,  this is better for us. there are also sunni scholars who disagree with each other on matters, as do the Shia'.

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1 hour ago, reasoner said:

AssalamAlaikum brothers,   @wmehar2    @shiaman14

                                   im ready to convert if i find truth.                                                                                      Will  you  change brother , if you find what you were   believing is false    ?    

How many People in Shiachat Will Convert  if people found out what they   believing is false      ?  

Truth is Simple.

or

Do you think God will make it complex.

 

sure I would. Isn't that the whole point of any discussion? As a matter of act, that is exactly what Tejani did (https://www.al-islam.org/then-i-was-guided-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi)

1 hour ago, reasoner said:

AssalamAlaikum brother  @wmehar2

if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger,...    (full  stop)

The problem is nobody is disagreeing with imams or hazarats.....(sheep)(following blind on everything)

if you disagree over anything in 4:59--------------->  What does it  mean 

We disagree over who was the rightful leader of the Ummah after the Prophet. Let's refer to Allah and the Prophet. Prophet said Ali at Ghadeer. Case solved???

59 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

perhaps in matters of religious interpretation, over jurisprudence, maybe extrapolate that to sunni scholars differing with shia; scholars, to me the specifics don't mean as much as the message this verse tells us, which is to prioritize peace among ourselves.  So as long as we believe in Allah, and the last day,  this is better for us. there are also sunni scholars who disagree with each other on matters, as do the Shia'.

but the Ayahs specifically say to obey Allah, Prophet and X and also Allah, Prophet and X is your Vali.

Define X

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32 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

We disagree over who was the rightful leader of the Ummah after the Prophet. Let's refer to Allah and the Prophet. Prophet said Ali at Ghadeer. Case solved???

I don't disagree, I think it should have been 'Ali, the sunni may disagree, but what does it matter anymore?  Imam Ali has passed,  Ghadeer, unfortunately is not preserved in the Quran, but with man.  God only promised us that the Quran will be preserved by  Him.  so assuming I have to discard both Shia and Sunni Hadith, I will take what supersedes them both.. our holy book.  We agree to disagree for peace, and not fight each other and believe in Allah and the final day.

Even if the Quran directly and explicitly names 'Ali as the successor, I  can't follow him now, for he is passed.  Any matter recording 'Ali's life is preserved by man and not God.  And I cannot rely on it.  But this is my personal stance.   I'm talking to Sunni's when i I say they should leave the matter to god with verse 4:59.  This is my way of saying shame on them if they believe 'Ali and Ahlul Bayt deserved to be oppressed,

Yes @shiaman14 The ayahs say Obey Allah, prophet, and those charged with authority ( X) which you take to be 'Ali and Ahlul bayt. 

The prophet and Ahlul Bayts traditions are in the hadith of the Shia', and the companions and prophet's life are in the Sunni Hadith, unfortunately from my perspective they were preserved by men and can't be trusted.  God tells us in the Quran in 3 places that he promises Himself to preserve the Quran, I have no such guarantee for the Hadeeth.  We both know Quran trumps Hadith.

The prophet SAW was the living embodiment of the Qu'ran and I will take this over everything else.  I cannot follow men who have passed away in the past.  If certain men/Sahaba and oppressors like muawiyah followed their Quran they wouldn't have had the divide to begin with and oppressed anyone including Ahlul Bayt.

You and I will have to agree to disagree here Shiaman14. 

Edited by wmehar2

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

 

 

but the Ayahs specifically say to obey Allah, Prophet and X and also Allah, Prophet and X is your Vali.

Define X

AssalamAlaikum,   @shiaman14

Think ´x´ as a teacher

  students follow and ask guidance from teacher.

If  ¨Teacher says its ok to commit murder,Rape,Steal etc...

Basic stuff..

Then students will start to doubt that teacher and ask questions and eventually disagreements will start.

Similarly

if imams or hazarats   tells  their followers that another prophet will come  or giving attributes of        Allah(swt) to humans  or telling their followers there is more than 5 pillars of islam   or trying to persuade and  making the followers to  do shirk !

then we should stay away from those imams or hazarats n   go back to       { Allah(Swt)   n     Prophet  muhammad(pbuh)}

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Another example : Think ¨Sheperds¨ as authority in above verse  and people as sheep.

Everybody Know that ¨Sheperds¨ guides the flock of sheep. If  sheperds  misguides , what will happen to those sheep.

Thats what Allah (swt) says - if someone who is in authority misguides his followers, then his followers should abandon that authority and go to { Allah(Swt)   n     Prophet  muhammad(pbuh)}

 

Still  confuse   ?  i   don´t  know how to make it  even simpler...

Just live like how prophet muhammad lived outwardly and internally ... Read his biography

 

 

 

Edited by reasoner
missed words

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1 hour ago, reasoner said:

AssalamAlaikum,   @shiaman14

Think ´x´ as a teacher

  students follow and ask guidance from teacher.

If  ¨Teacher says its ok to commit murder,Rape,Steal etc...

Basic stuff..

Then students will start to doubt that teacher and ask questions and eventually disagreements will start.

Similarly

if imams or hazarats   tells  their followers that another prophet will come  or giving attributes of        Allah(swt) to humans  or telling their followers there is more than 5 pillars of islam   or trying to persuade and  making the followers to  do shirk !

then we should stay away from those imams or hazarats n   go back to       { Allah(Swt)   n     Prophet  muhammad(pbuh)}

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Another example : Think ¨Sheperds¨ as authority in above verse  and people as sheep.

Everybody Know that ¨Sheperds¨ guides the flock of sheep. If  sheperds  misguides , what will happen to those sheep.

Thats what Allah (swt) says - if someone who is in authority misguides his followers, then his followers should abandon that authority and go to { Allah(Swt)   n     Prophet  muhammad(pbuh)}

 

Still  confuse   ?  i   don´t  know how to make it  even simpler...

Just live like how prophet muhammad lived outwardly and internally ... Read his biography

 

 

 

Look man, How much can you say you actually understand about Shia' Islam?  I've been here 2 months and already learned a ton, and definitely much longer to go.  Before you say anything, what do you think Shia' believe, and why?  We're still not going back to OP's original question.

Clear up any  misconceptions if you have any of them, and help them clear what they have of you before having this kind of discussion.

Coming here and asking Shia' to read about their prophet's life (when they themselves are muslim and also read about the prophet's SAW life), isn't really going progress the conversation/debate.

They believe through the prophet's descendants/imams they know Muhammad SAW, who were infallible.  So they believe their in the green in regards to that verse that says follow the prophet and leave it to Allah SWT, while you, the Sunni's believe the Sahaba were close and knew Muhammad SAW, and in the same manner you invoke the passage believe you instead are in the green.

I'm saying you both are in the Green, no matter whose way is the prophet's or not because the verse say's don't bicker an fight over it in the end, just so as long as you believe in Allah SWT and the last day.  We can go about who did what first, or started what first, and whose to blame, or can talk about how we can improve our relationship.  Unless you're telling me both that the only way they'll get along is if either side converts to the other, then we have nothing much to discuss ... from my perspective. 

It's just going to turn into a show of "he said, she said', "hadith says this.. no we think that hadith is fabricated" and on and on and on and on.

If you believe the prophet's family was oppressed, then you should be of the opinion that some of the sahaba were rather unjust (some say cruel) towards the family of the Prophet, and that Ali.

However I want to ask about this passage:

"The Kharijites caused so much trouble that in both the early Sunni and the early Shia books Ali said:"With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine."(Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 126) "

 

Edited by wmehar2

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15 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I don't disagree, I think it should have been 'Ali, the sunni may disagree, but what does it matter anymore?  Imam Ali has passed,  Ghadeer, unfortunately is not preserved in the Quran, but with man.  God only promised us that the Quran will be preserved by  Him.  so assuming I have to discard both Shia and Sunni Hadith, I will take what supersedes them both.. our holy book.  We agree to disagree for peace, and not fight each other and believe in Allah and the final day.

Even if the Quran directly and explicitly names 'Ali as the successor, I  can't follow him now, for he is passed.  Any matter recording 'Ali's life is preserved by man and not God.  And I cannot rely on it.  But this is my personal stance.   I'm talking to Sunni's when i I say they should leave the matter to god with verse 4:59.  This is my way of saying shame on them if they believe 'Ali and Ahlul Bayt deserved to be oppressed,

Yes @shiaman14 The ayahs say Obey Allah, prophet, and those charged with authority ( X) which you take to be 'Ali and Ahlul bayt. 

The prophet and Ahlul Bayts traditions are in the hadith of the Shia', and the companions and prophet's life are in the Sunni Hadith, unfortunately from my perspective they were preserved by men and can't be trusted.  God tells us in the Quran in 3 places that he promises Himself to preserve the Quran, I have no such guarantee for the Hadeeth.  We both know Quran trumps Hadith.

The prophet SAW was the living embodiment of the Qu'ran and I will take this over everything else.  I cannot follow men who have passed away in the past.  If certain men/Sahaba and oppressors like muawiyah followed their Quran they wouldn't have had the divide to begin with and oppressed anyone including Ahlul Bayt.

You and I will have to agree to disagree here Shiaman14. 

no problem in agreeing to disagree. As you will find with most shias, we will not force you to accept our beliefs neither will we make takfir on you for not doing so.

However, I will say that logically your stance doesn't make sense but will leave it at that. Plus we are moving away from the actual question itself.

15 hours ago, reasoner said:

AssalamAlaikum,   @shiaman14

Think ´x´ as a teacher

  students follow and ask guidance from teacher.

If  ¨Teacher says its ok to commit murder,Rape,Steal etc...

Basic stuff..

Then students will start to doubt that teacher and ask questions and eventually disagreements will start.

Similarly

if imams or hazarats   tells  their followers that another prophet will come  or giving attributes of        Allah(swt) to humans  or telling their followers there is more than 5 pillars of islam   or trying to persuade and  making the followers to  do shirk !

then we should stay away from those imams or hazarats n   go back to       { Allah(Swt)   n     Prophet  muhammad(pbuh)}

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Another example : Think ¨Sheperds¨ as authority in above verse  and people as sheep.

Everybody Know that ¨Sheperds¨ guides the flock of sheep. If  sheperds  misguides , what will happen to those sheep.

Thats what Allah (swt) says - if someone who is in authority misguides his followers, then his followers should abandon that authority and go to { Allah(Swt)   n     Prophet  muhammad(pbuh)}

 

Still  confuse   ?  i   don´t  know how to make it  even simpler...

Just live like how prophet muhammad lived outwardly and internally ... Read his biography

So you are saying X can be anyone. However you have not answered if authority comes from Allah or elsewhere.

The ayah does not say "whom you have put in authority" but "those in authority". That means the authority did not come from man but Allah.

again, we digress from the topic so I will stop at that.

 

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On 18 June 2016 at 0:47 AM, shiaman14 said:

That's my question. Seems like trolling shias is a higher priority than condemning the terrorists.

You are definitely true in Umarism. Also, since when did reciting Surah Tahrim become insulting the wives?

Bottomline -  you are indifferent to terrorists and probably a closet supporter of them. Any coincident Orlando and San Bernandino together make Umar Farouk???

Is that all you got? Typical Shiite blame it all on Umar hahahaha, shows how little and closed mind you really are, your brother was the first suicide bomber Iraq v Iran (blowing his own Muslim brothers up) it was you Shiites who imported it to the plo, but hey your mind won't expand beyond what nonsense you have been fed, at the end of the day we ain't worried Islam is strong and has many adherents a few terrorists won't harm it, not even your gibberish talk

you seem to be on top here why don't you go ask the question on a Sunni site? I will see how you do there

you will end up running away wahabi this wahabi that Umari this bakri that.......it's all you got!

 

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On 18 June 2016 at 6:50 PM, shiaman14 said:

All I was looking for was 1 (dare I dream 2) Sunnis to say 'I condemn the wahabi/salafi/terrorists on ________ (insert website or social media).

Too much to ask I suppose. All we've gotten is passive and active defending.

Keep dreaming 

dreams never come true, try dreaming of the first Muslim suicide bomber too and then apologise for his actions......state sponsored

deaf dumb and blind comes to mind when I read shiamans post

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17 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

Is that all you got? Typical Shiite blame it all on Umar hahahaha, shows how little and closed mind you really are, your brother was the first suicide bomber Iraq v Iran (blowing his own Muslim brothers up) it was you Shiites who imported it to the plo, but hey your mind won't expand beyond what nonsense you have been fed, at the end of the day we ain't worried Islam is strong and has many adherents a few terrorists won't harm it, not even your gibberish talk

you seem to be on top here why don't you go ask the question on a Sunni site? I will see how you do there

you will end up running away wahabi this wahabi that Umari this bakri that.......it's all you got!

 

surely you are not referring to the Iraq v Iran war that Saddam started? Question; Is Saddam more revered or Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi by your people?

Hmmm, let's see:

sunniforum.net - banned
ummah.net - didn't accept my registration as shia

I had a lengthy discussion on SunniForum on the fake hadith on the merits of Ashura fasting. Not only did they ban me, they actually removed the entire thread from where I started.

There were a few other hardocre wahabi sites - that all banned me after their 'abuse' didnt work.

But, hey I am willing to try any Sunni Forum you want - just name it. I bet you are treated better on ShiaChat than I will be on any Sunni forum. 

13 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

Keep dreaming 

dreams never come true, try dreaming of the first Muslim suicide bomber too and then apologise for his actions......state sponsored

deaf dumb and blind comes to mind when I read shiamans post

Why so serious? Your people just killed Amjad Sabri and attacked Farhan Ali Waris in Pakistan. You should be celebrating

Edited by shiaman14

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7 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

surely you are not referring to the Iraq v Iran war that Saddam started? Question; Is Saddam more revered or Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi by your people?

Hmmm, let's see:

sunniforum.net - banned
ummah.net - didn't accept my registration as shia

I had a lengthy discussion on SunniForum on the fake hadith on the merits of Ashura fasting. Not only did they ban me, they actually removed the entire thread from where I started.

There were a few other hardocre wahabi sites - that all banned me after their 'abuse' didnt work.

But, hey I am willing to try any Sunni Forum you want - just name it. I bet you are treated better on ShiaChat than I will be on any Sunni forum. 

Why so serious? Your people just killed Amjad Sabri and attacked Farhan Ali Waris in Pakistan. You should be celebrating

Hey come on ************* if not there are more don't worry 

you wont get banned you won't get abused, don't give us non of your fairy tales of Sunnis banning you, that's just too funny.........speaking from experience

did you know why Sabri got killed? Some say he was blaspheming against imam Ali ra and syeda Fatima zahra ra

only if you knew instead of making sweeping statements, it shows your immaturity on every subject

so come on down ************* if your the shiaman you really are

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8 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

Hey come on ************* if not there are more don't worry 

you wont get banned you won't get abused, don't give us non of your fairy tales of Sunnis banning you, that's just too funny.........speaking from experience

so come on down ************* if your the shiaman you really are

******************?

8 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

did you know why Sabri got killed? Some say he was blaspheming against imam Ali ra and syeda Fatima zahra ra

only if you knew instead of making sweeping statements, it shows your immaturity on every subject

well, apparently he had just recited a poem about the Prophet and then he was killed.

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^^iam unaware who killed amjad sabri while he was in "state of fasting" but iam aware who ever killed him is such manner cannot be muslims  ! A muslim cannot kill any muslim internationally, if he has done so it's clear they disobeyed "Allah's command", and even if someone get killed "unintentionally" then too hard punishment is mentioned in Quran ! And killing is one the haraam act among other haraam acts. And after all Prophet s.a.w said : a killer can't smell fragrance of jannah, though its smell can be sensed from the distance of earth and sky. And as for shias amjad sabri was a "sunni =_____"! So still you  said fatiha etc ; and praised him, is matter of concern. 

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2 hours ago, (patience) said:

^^iam unaware who killed amjad sabri while he was in "state of fasting" but iam aware who ever killed him is such manner cannot be muslims  ! A muslim cannot kill any muslim internationally, if he has done so it's clear they disobeyed "Allah's command", and even if someone get killed "unintentionally" then too hard punishment is mentioned in Quran ! And killing is one the haraam act among other haraam acts. And after all Prophet s.a.w said : a killer can't smell fragrance of jannah, though its smell can be sensed from the distance of earth and sky. And as for shias amjad sabri was a "sunni =_____"! So still you  said fatiha etc ; and praised him, is matter of concern. 

I believe the Taliban already claimed responsibility. But then they have never hesitated to bomb mosques either.

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Saying that we do not respond to these Terrorist or denounce them is ignorant here are some examples of our Ulama denouncing ISIS and Al Qaeda here are some. 

Al-Azhar: Islamic State Is Corrupt And “A Danger To Islam.”Lebanese paper The Daily Star reported that Al-Azhar’s Grand Mufti Shawqi Allam, Egypt’s highest religious authority, denounced the Islamic State as a threat to Islam and said that the group both violates Sharia law and humanitarian law: “[They] give an opportunity for those who seek to harm us, to destroy us and interfere in our affairs with the [pretext of a] call to fight terrorism.” [The Daily Star, 8/13/14]

Turkey’s Top Cleric: Islamic State’s Threats Are “Hugely Damaging,” “Truly Awful.” Turkey’s highest ranking cleric, Mehmet Gormez, decried the Islamic State’s declaration of a “caliphate” and argued that the statements were damaging to the Muslim community, according to Reuters:

“Such declarations have no legitimacy whatsoever,” Mehmet Gormez, head of the Religious Affairs Directorate, the highest religious authority in Turkey, which, although a majority Muslim country, has been a secular state since the 1920s.

“Since the caliphate was abolished … there have been movements that think they can pull together the Muslim world by re-establishing a caliphate, but they have nothing to do with reality, whether from a political or legal perspective.”

Gormez said death threats against non-Muslims made by the group, formerly known as Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), were hugely damaging.

“The statement made against Christians is truly awful. Islamic scholars need to focus on this (because) an inability to peacefully sustain other faiths and cultures heralds the collapse of a civilization,” he told Reuters in an interview. [Reuters, 7/22/14]

In Fact our Scholars Denounce them together 

100 Sunni And Shiite U.K. Religious Leaders: The Islamic State Is An “Illegitimate, Vicious Group.” As the Huffington Post reported, 100 Sunni and Shiite Imams from the U.K. came together to produce a video denouncing the Islamic State, releasing a statement that they wanted to “come together to emphasise the importance of unity in the UK and to decree ISIS as an illegitimate, vicious group who do not represent Islam in any way.” (Please see below)

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4 hours ago, Sahabi101 said:

Saying that we do not respond to these Terrorist or denounce them is ignorant here are some examples of our Ulama denouncing ISIS and Al Qaeda here are some. 

Al-Azhar: Islamic State Is Corrupt And “A Danger To Islam.”Lebanese paper The Daily Star reported that Al-Azhar’s Grand Mufti Shawqi Allam, Egypt’s highest religious authority, denounced the Islamic State as a threat to Islam and said that the group both violates Sharia law and humanitarian law: “[They] give an opportunity for those who seek to harm us, to destroy us and interfere in our affairs with the [pretext of a] call to fight terrorism.” [The Daily Star, 8/13/14]

Turkey’s Top Cleric: Islamic State’s Threats Are “Hugely Damaging,” “Truly Awful.” Turkey’s highest ranking cleric, Mehmet Gormez, decried the Islamic State’s declaration of a “caliphate” and argued that the statements were damaging to the Muslim community, according to Reuters:

“Such declarations have no legitimacy whatsoever,” Mehmet Gormez, head of the Religious Affairs Directorate, the highest religious authority in Turkey, which, although a majority Muslim country, has been a secular state since the 1920s.

“Since the caliphate was abolished … there have been movements that think they can pull together the Muslim world by re-establishing a caliphate, but they have nothing to do with reality, whether from a political or legal perspective.”

Gormez said death threats against non-Muslims made by the group, formerly known as Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), were hugely damaging.

“The statement made against Christians is truly awful. Islamic scholars need to focus on this (because) an inability to peacefully sustain other faiths and cultures heralds the collapse of a civilization,” he told Reuters in an interview. [Reuters, 7/22/14]

In Fact our Scholars Denounce them together 

100 Sunni And Shiite U.K. Religious Leaders: The Islamic State Is An “Illegitimate, Vicious Group.” As the Huffington Post reported, 100 Sunni and Shiite Imams from the U.K. came together to produce a video denouncing the Islamic State, releasing a statement that they wanted to “come together to emphasise the importance of unity in the UK and to decree ISIS as an illegitimate, vicious group who do not represent Islam in any way.” (Please see below)

Brother - I am aware of the work Sunni ulema are doing to counter the scourge of terrorism we are plagued with. Another great example was the unity shown when a shiite mosque was bombed in Kuwait. No issues here.

My question was specifically to the Sunni brothers who frequent ShiaChat asking them if they are doing anything online or otherwise to denounce terrorism and dissuade people who are actively or passively supporting the terror groups. We all have limited bandwidth to do 'dawah' so I was trying to find out if a Sunni brother has 1hr to spend online - is he choosing to spend that hour to discuss the good/bad/ugly with shias or spending that time countering the scourge. That's all.

Not sure why I touched a nerve of so many.

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I am sorry i thought you were talking about Sunnis as a whole

Edited by Sahabi101
wrong spelling

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Just curious if any Sunni brothers would like to change their stance and finally recognize the need to confront the scourge of ISIS with the recent bombings in Qatar and more importantly in Medina.

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On 17/05/2016 at 5:14 PM, shiaman14 said:

So we have several Sunnis on ShiaChat and I think it is a great thing.

Some of the Sunnis ask great, thought-provoking questions; others not so much but as Shias, we welcome all.

We get asked some really dumb questions and some very smart questions.

This may have been asked before but can any Sunni reading this answer this simple question - What have you done to stop the terrorism that is being spread in the name of Sunni Islam? What specifically in the Sunni doctrine creates terrorists?

Simple put... its the Wahabis that have hijacked Sunnism as a propaganda stunt to generate their evil beliefs... 

Its evil to the extent that one of their leaders... Ibn Taymiah declared Takfeer on Imam Ali (AS) and any sane person would know that Sunnis love the Ahlul Bayt and we would refute such a person and we do... the wahabis are what the Prophet described as the Khwarij. Simple

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34 minutes ago, AhleSunnahWalJammah said:

Simple put... its the Wahabis that have hijacked Sunnism as a propaganda stunt to generate their evil beliefs... 

Its evil to the extent that one of their leaders... Ibn Taymiah declared Takfeer on Imam Ali (AS) and any sane person would know that Sunnis love the Ahlul Bayt and we would refute such a person and we do... the wahabis are what the Prophet described as the Khwarij. Simple

Thank you for your comments.

Do you spend any time on wahabi or mainstream sunni sites letting them know of the evilness and wrong interpretation of islam by the likes of ISIS, Al-Qaida, Taliban, etc?

That's all I have been trying to find out.

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40 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Thank you for your comments.

Do you spend any time on wahabi or mainstream sunni sites letting them know of the evilness and wrong interpretation of islam by the likes of ISIS, Al-Qaida, Taliban, etc?

That's all I have been trying to find out.

Allah has said that there was going to be Khwarij and the Prophet SAW described them explicitly... we have tried and the sunni scholars in the UK are doing an excellent job at the moment because the wahabbis/salafis have really corrupt scholars and they are stubborn in their beliefs and they target the youth and its abit like trying to get toothpaste back into its bottle... you can after hard work but all of it still wont go back in.... its not the sunnis job because these people arent part of the ahlus sunnah but we still try... BUT it is the whole Ummahs job 

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3 hours ago, AhleSunnahWalJammah said:

Allah has said that there was going to be Khwarij and the Prophet SAW described them explicitly... we have tried and the sunni scholars in the UK are doing an excellent job at the moment because the wahabbis/salafis have really corrupt scholars and they are stubborn in their beliefs and they target the youth and its abit like trying to get toothpaste back into its bottle... you can after hard work but all of it still wont go back in.... its not the sunnis job because these people arent part of the ahlus sunnah but we still try... BUT it is the whole Ummahs job 

Agree - entire Ummah needs to do their/our part.

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I know when a respected Sunni personality genuinely speaks out against takfiri terrorism and is not afraid of going into Wahhabism and Saudi Arabia, Turkey and GCC countries' hands in fomenting global terrorism, takfirism and exclusivist trends in Sunni Islam, they usually get killed, as was the case of Mohamed Said Ramadan al-Bouti. If they live in the west (e.g. Muhammad al-Asi), they usually get kicked out of their mosques and forced to give khutbahs and lead Jumu'ah on the sidewalks.

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2 hours ago, MustafaE said:

I know when a respected Sunni personality genuinely speaks out against takfiri terrorism and is not afraid of going into Wahhabism and Saudi Arabia, Turkey and GCC countries' hands in fomenting global terrorism, takfirism and exclusivist trends in Sunni Islam, they usually get killed, as was the case of Mohamed Said Ramadan al-Bouti. If they live in the west (e.g. Muhammad al-Asi), they usually get kicked out of their mosques and forced to give khutbahs and lead Jumu'ah on the sidewalks.

Agreed. They are slowly but surely hijacking our faith and it is up to us to take it back from them - shia and sunni United against them.

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Assalaam, and Eid Mubarak,

I am a Sunni (though I identify as "nonsectarian").  The answer to your question is Sunni Islam allows political secularism, which has allowed the rise of corrupt rulers, against whom the Sunni ulema do not speak.  This leads to much frustration, and a SMALL RADICAL MINORITY turn to terrorism to achieve their political ends. 

By the way, I find the tone of your question rude, exactly the same as the nonMuslim Islamophobes demand of us Muslims here in the US. 

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