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Eric muhalla

Homosexuality, why is it sinful?

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Asalamu alaikum, 

I have been trying to deal with this issue for quite some time now. I am a devouted shia muslim. I do my prayers, fasting, don't drink, gamble, fornicate, or any of those things. But what I do wonder is that why is homosexuality a bad thing? 

I read into it a lot and hear so many of their stories on how they have to struggle to live their lives. Now we can say that perhaps they weren't born like this since biologically homosexuality is useless and that they chose this path instead. 

But it doesn't seem to be that way when I read about it, and getting to learn more about it. Now of course we as Muslims believe they are sinful since for another reason aside from it being not natural which is that this will in turn lead to other types of sexuality such as bestiality, incest, pedophilia, necrophilia and what not. So I don't believe in the short term but in the long term instead. Even if USA enacted a law which accepts gay marriage now its only been a year since then. But there is a long term course of gay acceptance in the Netherlands and I did my research about it and found out that its just the same as straight marriages. 

I hope anyone out there can be give a reasonable explanation on how this is considered wrong or at least how we as Muslims should deal with it now with all this awarness and information about them instead of just murdering them at blank point. 

  

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Homosexuality is a mental and physical disease (one might say physical due to excess estrogen In a male that may induce feminine qualities in him) Some people are born physically deformed born with a cleft lip or have down syndrome. Others might have hormonal imbalances resulting in different character traits. All of these diseases and deformities are a test that these people need to overcome or a test for the people surrounding them. Will the parents of a mentally disabled child have patience to care for it? Or will they tire and abandon this helpless child? The test of a man who claims to be attracted to men since he was a child, is to overcome this mental disease. There is nothing natural about homosexuality. How are they to procreate?

Edited by Miss Wonderful

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i can tell you three reasons why it is wrong 

one is that biologically it is foul, your putting things into places where they where not meant to be put 

wasting the seed is evil and sinful, God didnt create human fluids so that they can be thrown away so that you can just experience pleasure, and homosexuality is entirely based upon pleasure and desires which are wrong , it is a full force of evil , God created sex for reproduction and continuation of the species and they have dropped this part of the responsibility and taken the pleasure part and enhanced it , so they have negated God out of the action and turned it into a nafs worship 

and it actually acts like a cancer into society, it pollutes society because the more homosexuality becomes common it begins to spread its message of evil and desire , as people see it and start to not see any wrong any lines and boundaries , dont forget that you share the air they breathe, the food the food they drink, the water they drink, the water and seas they bath into, the walkways and pathways, you bump up into them you walk past them you shake hands with them(knowing it or not)

so the more there is of them the more their negativity and evil spreads and becomes common in society 

Edited by turningover

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Because God clearly forbids intimate contact with anyone other than your spouse. We don't need any additional reasons. 

I talked once with a Muslim convert who loved everything about Islam except the prohibition of pork. She didn't understand why this law was needed, and all the reasons people could give, she could refute with logic and science. Nonetheless, eating pork is never halal, because Allah decreed it. 

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It's a problem for the Abrahamic religions. Not sure why. However, Jesus spent little time on that issue and far more on other issues.

In some cultures, like my specific one prior to contact with Christianity, gay people were simply accepted as part of the way some humans are born. Pairing between them seemed to be considered the same as anyone else's. 

The thinking of my Catholic faith currently is that people are born gay, therefore it cannot be a sin to actually BE gay. The sin comes in practicing it. Gay folks who practice celibacy , as all sorts of single folks are supposed to do, are welcome the Church and may reach the same levels of spiritual maturity as any other Christian.  Same-sex marriages are forbidden in my Church. ( A few Churches of other denominations accept  them)The Church also does not recognize as valid marriages involving Catholics that take place without the Church's permission,which would be any civil marriage contracted without your bishop's permission. This is unsatisfying to many Catholics ,including myself. Having someone restricted from a sacrament ( marriage) due to the way they were born rather than by some act of their own will violates a sense of justice. Our theologians know it is hard to argue this and I would not be surprised to see rulings change one day.

as far the the arguments presented:

" wasting seed" .....some folks on this site feel it is okay to practice coitus interruptus ,mutual masturbation between marriage partners, and other forms of birth control...technically" wasting seed". If anyone actually believed in not wasting seed, then they should adopt the standard Catholic view, in which every sexual act must be open to the possibility of conception and artificial birth control is banned. However, sex is also for showing love, so sex during infertile times and after menopause is no problem.

" gay people cannot reproduce" ... There are already seven billion people on this planet,so the heterosexuals have already done pretty well...plus , one of the theories among biologists for homosexuality among  different species is that non-reproducing members were extra providers for the group's children without adding to the child-load of the group. Who knows?

" Effeminate characteristics" in males... Last time I saw a squad of fit, battle-ready  male US Marines....I couldn't pick out which ones were gay. I can't tell which male professors at the school are ,either.

At present there is no real science that explains why some males are gay aside from  theory regarding uterine conditions between pregnancies,but that is far from certain and in any case does not apply to female gay people. 

@Bakir  Thanks for always being the voice of reason in this debate.

 

 

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homosexuality has become a complex issue and has evolved since the time of prophet lut (as) , and their is a lot more too it and it has become a very sensitive issue in the present world we live in today , Their are many reasons why Allah swt has condemned it , but their are also many reasons why people are gay , discussing it on a forum will lead only towards argument/debate and you won't find any valuable answers because we are mostly ingrained and already biased towards our beliefs , The best way to seek the answer I believe is to first of all go back to the book of Allah swt , afterwards the hadith of ahlulbayt (as) , and after that try reading thesis on this issue by various islamic and non-islamic scholars who have multitudes of opinions on the matter and be sure to read both sides of the argument ( that means reading for it and against it ) , and afterwards talk to homosexual people you know or try finding articles of people who are homosexual and read their stories to understand why they are the way they are , and if all else fails close your eyes and pray too Allah swt from the sincerity of your soul with no arrogance or preconceived notions/answers in your mind and ask him the reason and inshallah you will get your answer , Allah swt only helps those who help themselves you must truly work hard and put in the effort to seek the answer with sincerity other wise it will all be conjecture and to be honest even what I'm telling you is conjecture as well , but it is worth a try , May Allah swt make firm our hearts on his path :ws:

Edited by sharinganMahdi

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First of all, I think people need to leave their "accepting homosexuality as natural is being the voice of reason" biases out of here. It seems that most people in Western countries have come to believe that accepting homosexuality is some sort of rite of passage into maturity, and that arguing that people who engage in homosexuality are any different from others, is either childish or racist and bigoted. People (including some on this thread) act like religion is the sole barrier separating homosexuals from being accepted as normal. On top of that, all the rubbish the media is feeding us makes it seem like there is a scientific consensus accepting that all gays are 'born that way' and that their choice or upbringing plays no part.

From the American Psychological Association's website (which is very pro-gay):

Quote

What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?

There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. 

As for the issue of choice (from a separate site):

Quote

Even more recently in 2007, a landmark study was published by Drs. Stanton Jones and Mark Yarhouse which concluded that it is possible for homosexuals to change their physical attractions and that such efforts to bring about change do not appear to be psychologically harmful. Entitled Ex-Gays? A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation, this groundbreaking research has been hailed by experts from both sides of the debate as being the most methodologically rigorous to date.

In the 2002 study "Opposite-sex twins and adolescent same-sex attraction" of genetically identical twins, the authors Bearman and Brückner concluded that, and I quote Columbia University's official website, "Their results provide substantial support for the role of social influences, reject the hormone transfer model, reject a speculative evolutionary theory" after finding a concordance rate of only 7.7% for the homosexuality trait among male genetically identical twins, and 5.3% among their female counterparts, a pattern which they say "does not suggest genetic influence independent of social context."

Similarly, a much more recent ongoing study by the University of California has found that (among their much smaller set) only 20% of identical twins are both gay, as recently reported by The Telegraph:

Quote

Scientists studied 37 sets of identical male twins, who were born with the same genetic blueprint, to tease out which genes were associated with homosexuality. In each pair, one of the twins was gay. Only 20 percent of identical twins are both gay leading researchers to believe that there must be causes which are not inherited. They found that it was possible to tell whether a man was gay or straight by monitoring tiny changes in how his DNA functions after birth – a field known as epigenetics. Where DNA works as an overall instruction manual, epigenetics act as another layer of information highlighting which parts of the text are important and which can be ignored.

These are not the only studies that have lead to these findings, and a quick look through the references of this articles shows that quite clearly (in other words, no, I am not quoting Christian evangelists, which I could have very easily resorted too- see 8 Major Studies Prove Homosexuality Is Not Genetic):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

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2 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

as far the the arguments presented:

" wasting seed" .....some folks on this site feel it is okay to practice coitus interruptus ,mutual masturbation between marriage partners, and other forms of birth control...technically" wasting seed". If anyone actually believed in not wasting seed, then they should adopt the standard Catholic view, in which every sexual act must be open to the possibility of conception and artificial birth control is banned. However, sex is also for showing love, so sex during infertile times and after menopause is no problem.

" gay people cannot reproduce" ... There are already seven billion people on this planet,so the heterosexuals have already done pretty well...plus , one of the theories among biologists for homosexuality among  different species is that non-reproducing members were extra providers for the group's children without adding to the child-load of the group. Who knows?

" Effeminate characteristics" in males... Last time I saw a squad of fit, battle-ready  male US Marines....I couldn't pick out which ones were gay. I can't tell which male professors at the school are ,either.

You didn't address the main problem raised in the OP itself that "this will in turn lead to other types of sexuality such as bestiality, incest, pedophilia, necrophilia..."

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11 hours ago, Miss Wonderful said:

Homosexuality is a mental and physical disease (one might say physical due to excess estrogen In a male that may induce feminine qualities in him)

Neither mental nor physical disease. Estrogen levels do not effect a males sexual preference. Please provide references(scientific) to these allegations. If anything religion opposes homosexuality from a behavioral/moral stand point. 

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8 minutes ago, Mariama said:

Neither mental nor physical disease. Estrogen levels do not effect a males sexual preference. Please provide references(scientific) to these allegations. If anything religion opposes homosexuality from a behavioral/moral stand point. 

You ask for scientific references while making a counterclaim without providing reference?

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4 minutes ago, notme said:

You ask for scientific references while making a counterclaim without providing reference?

Assuming the burden falls first on the person with the initial statement to provide reference.. But forget rationale,..

Changing levels of adult male/female sex hormones has been shown to effect sex drive not orientation. It is a weak charge with political motives.. Anyway I will produce my evidence soon. 

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@LeftCoastMom Thanks LCM! I always appreciate your sincere input as well on this debate.

@The Batman I pressed Ctrl+F and typed "marriage": 0 results. I am not sure if you are aware of this, but in the gay scene sex is ubicuous and riskier. Now, married gay monogamous couples are not into that lifestyle, and they can't contract HIV.

@Shaykh Patience101 this debate may become about who quote whom. For every article in favour of gay conversion therapy, I can bring you another one against it due to its health consequences. You quoted APA yourself, which suggests the contrary to the article you quoted as well as the articles you wanted to quote on gay conversion. It's not rocket science man, if you negate something that is part and will always be part of yourself, you are just destroying your self-esteem and putting a mask for the rest of your life. If someone is gay and muslim, he should be proud of it, open about it, and lead an exemplary life as any other believer should.

@Haji 2003 it could very well be argued that there was a hard bias against homosexuals in the past, and we both know it was not because of religious beliefs. The injustice - that I won't allow you to negate - is real and I refuse to accept it was done in the name of religion. It always seemed to be hypocritical that straights, the ones who can marry, were the ones that told us we can't because we are sick. The issue goes way beyond the social changes of the latest two decades. I guess we both have read "After the Ball" among others, but that book isn't the answer to all questions on homosexuality nowaday.

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13 hours ago, Eric muhalla said:

I hope anyone out there can be give a reasonable explanation on how this is considered wrong or at least how we as Muslims should deal with it now with all this awarness and information about them instead of just murdering them at blank point. 

  

Well nowhere in the Qur'an is there a punishment for homosexuality.   

There is an idea that suggest it was not homosexuality that damned the people of Lut instead they were condemned for committing other criminal acts such as rape, murder, refusal of hospitality, etc.. Allah Alam

Just as the woman's biology does not not support her to have multiple sex partners at once, due to her vaginal ecolog, and it being impermissible for a woman to marry more than one man at once. Similarly, a homosexual lifestyle between two men might/does contract stds. But if its all just biology what then about lesbian sex? What about protected sex? 

I am not attempting to answering your question... just pondering along with.. 

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53 minutes ago, Bakir said:

The injustice - that I won't allow you to negate - is real and I refuse to accept it was done in the name of religion.

Your understanding of religion, specifically Islam, and mine are quite different. And I have seen no evidence to back your view.

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people often ask "why are people born homosexuals" 

there is a few answers, firstly people are born with all sorts of problems and inclinations and how they deal with it is that they OVERCOME them,  it doesnt mean that if you are born with something you have to be it as if it is revelation and written in stone, and that you are meant to be it

secondly from the Imams there is a hadith that says that when you commit sins that they affect 7 generations after you , so a child being born with homosexual tendencies could have come from a family that committed sins which later on affected that child, HOWEVER bear in mind that God chose which soul goes into which body, He didnt put you in some order that was based on "next in line" and you get whatever , He put to each soul its various tests and chose for each soul whichever body with its various inclinations 

Homosexuality is wrong per-say and if Christians think that Jesus would support them they have strayed yet on another Issue from Jesus and FAR FAR from him and we are not surprised because this aint the first thing they differed on with Jesus which only shows they have nothing to do with him except drop his name, Jesus was circumcised, Jesus avoided pork, Jesus prayed like the Jew by prostrating his head on the ground(which is mentioned in the bible) and many other things which he did that they didnt , so really its not like they just began to fall off from his path, but are in a long line of it

besides finally how are people not repulsed by homosexuality? it is such a disgusting act it is so wrong, when you see it it is just hideous, two men kissing or two women, its wrong in all regards , just repugnant and wrong and those people have nothing to do with God and religion and in fact many of them are far from it and hate religion and God so much that they view it as their nemesis 

Edited by turningover

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4 hours ago, Mariama said:

Neither mental nor physical disease. Estrogen levels do not effect a males sexual preference. Please provide references(scientific) to these allegations. If anything religion opposes homosexuality from a behavioral/moral stand point. 

hi maryam well you are right i guess I should say individual cases because when I made that post I was thinking about someone whom I know whom feminine body features made him think he should have been born a woman. He engages in gay activities but claims to be a woman, so I guess his case is entirely different than that of a gay. then again he claims it was dur to him raped. his case is confusing because he says environmental factor played a role and he also claims he knew since he was a young boy.

but i personally consider gay should be seen as a test for the ones afflicted by it, because Allah SWT prohibited it. It's not natural. How would gays have survived if there is no woman to go e birth to them? No offense to anyone gay, i don't want to hurt anyone but i see it as a mental disease. Some gays claim from the time they were five they were attracted to men. Let us say that no environmental factor played a role in shaping their thoughts what's ever and that they were just drawn to men. Why can't we say this is an illness like a boy born bipolar or a man who is schizoprenic ? I feel that if we label it as a sickness, this will be a pro because then the gay man or woman would recognize that it is something they have to battle like how patients battle depression or cancer, and they are likely to sin less. And as long as Allah knows that the gay person is battling this illness, then Allah SWT is All Merciful. capable forgiving all sins except shirk.

Also I should say that even tho my intention is to help a gay overcome the gay by calling it a disease it might not help every gay. I am thinking up of one dimensional solutions :( ,and it might not appeal to every gay. but inshallah Allah swt knows what is in the hearts of men and He will help the one who reaches to Him sincerely in more appealing ways that is beyond my intelligence.

Edited by Miss Wonderful

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Salam Eric muhalla,

To answer this question, about why is homosexuality sinful, we need to go way back to the Law God gave to the Children of Israel via Moses.

Leviticus 18 talks about different sexual "no-nos" that God commanded the Children of Israel to avoid.

Leviticus 18:6-18 is God saying NO to incest.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0318.htm

Why is incest sinful? Because God said so don't do it. For example, if a man wants to have sex with his daughter or his son, or his granddaughter or grandson, that is evil. Most people do not argue with God here, because they understand why incest is evil.

Leviticus 18:20 is God saying NO to adultery. Why is adultery sinful? Cause God said not to do it. Many people understand the harmful effects of adultery, and how it is breaking one's promise as well, if one promised to be faithful and sexually loyal to his wife or her husband.

Leviticus 18:21 is God saying NO to giving "thy seed" to Molech. While I have not personally studied what this means, I have heard that children used to be sacrificed to Molech, which as everyone can understand, is horribly and shockingly evil. :(

Leviticus 18:22 is God saying NO to homosexuality (I boldened this verse.)

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination. - Leviticus 18:22

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0318.htm

So, why is homosexuality sinful? Because God said not to do it. There are many reasons for this, but let's check what God says not to do after He says no to homosexuality...

And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto; it is perversion.  - Leviticus 18:23

Of course, most people understand that bestiality is evil and why God said no to bestiality. It is interesting that God's NO to homosexuality is included in the list that prohibits incest, adultery, giving seed to Molech, and bestiality. Why is that?

God created sex to be between an adult male and an adult female of the same species yet not of the same biological family. He gave rules to keep people pure. One reason why He took away the land from the Canaanites and gave it to the Children of Israel was because of the sexual impurity of the Canaanites:

Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out from before you.  And the land was defiled, therefore I did visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land vomited out her inhabitants.  - Leviticus 18:24-25 (NIV)

So to recap, most people understand why God said no to incest, adultery, giving seed to Molech, and bestiality. It's basically God saying NO to homosexuality that people today dislike. Why is that? I don't know.

There are some people who think that next, people are going to have an issue with incest, adultery, and bestiality being sinful and advocate for them to be accepted as well. I don't know if that will happen or not, but God is very clear that incest, homosexuality and bestiality defile people, and that He punishes sin.

Now as to why would God decide that homosexuality is sinful, I think there several reasons.

1. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. (Homosexuals don't like that saying, but it's true whether people like it or not.)

2. God created marriage to be one man and one woman. While Jesus Christ didn't mention homosexuality, or incest or bestiality, Jesus Christ did confirm that God created one man and one woman to be one flesh: 

“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,[Genesis 1:2]and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh[Gen. 2:24]?So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” - Matthew 19:4-6 (NIV)

3. God wanted people to multiply. Natural reproduction requires both a man and a woman.

Anyways, homosexuality is sinful because God said so. Humans don't get to decide what is sin; God is the One who makes the rules and holds people accountable for if they obey Him or not.

Peace and God bless you

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1 hour ago, Miss Wonderful said:

Why can't we say this is an illness like a boy born bipolar or a man who is schizoprenic ? I feel that if we label it as a sickness, this will be a pro because then the gay man or woman would recognize that it is something they have to battle like how patients battle depression or cancer, and they are likely to sin less. And as long as Allah knows that the gay person is battling this illness, then Allah SWT is All Merciful. capable forgiving all sins except shirk.

Salam Miss Wonderful,

Homosexuality was removed from the DSM by the American Psychiatric Association in the early 70's. Hence, should not be viewed as a pathology. That will serve no one, only waste resources and cause a lot of pain to all those involved. 

 Let us assume the gay person is Muslim and doesn't want to disobey God.. Then through the Qur'an he/she would be guided if the person so believes. 

{And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient. Quran 2:155}

Thinking homosexuality is a pathology is dangerous. Imagine the treatment options that will arise due to this dilemma. You don't have to imagine it.. Just google conversion therapies. It's horrible. 

All you can do for your friend is accept him the way he is. If he's happy be happy for him(this isn't Islamic advice).

And remember... 

إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يُغَيِّرُ مَا بِقَوْمٍ حَتَّى يُغَيِّرُوا مَا بِأَنفُسِهِمْ

{"Allah does not change a people's lot unless they change what is in their hearts" Ar Raad 11}

If he had accepted himself no amount of "treatment" or advice can change him. It's a tricky subject so let's not hold firm to any opinion because of our upbringing and emotions. There is so much we don't know. 

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1 hour ago, Christianlady said:

So, why is homosexuality sinful? Because God said not to do it. There are many reasons for this, but let's check what God says not to do after He says no to homosexuality...

Now as to why would God decide that homosexuality is sinful, I think there several reasons.

1. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. (Homosexuals don't like that saying, but it's true whether people like it or not.)

2. God created marriage to be one man and one woman. While Jesus Christ didn't mention homosexuality, or incest or bestiality, Jesus Christ did confirm that God created one man and one woman to be one flesh: 

3. God wanted people to multiply. Natural reproduction requires both a man and a woman.

Anyways, homosexuality is sinful because God said so. Humans don't get to decide what is sin; God is the One who makes the rules and holds people accountable for if they obey Him or not.

Peace and God bless you

Salam ChritianLady,

God, being just and graceful, does not do anything without reason. However, it is not necessary that we should know the reason of each and every Devine law/action. God is the most beneficial. Still we are ordered to think for ourselves.  

"Indeed, the most disliked created beings in the Sight of God are the deaf and the dumb who do not use their intellect. (Quran, 8:22)

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them. (Quran, 17:36)"

So for the sake of understanding.. 

It is inappropriate to compare homosexuality to incest and beastiality. 

Let us say that two consensual adult homosexuals do not wish to marry, since marriage is only for man/woman, is it still a sin? 

We have reached a place in science where reproducing can be done by donors. On the other hand there are entire countries, example Japan, who suffer low sub-replacement fertility(adult to child ratio) where homosexuality isn't a factor. Is t still a sin? 

 

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2 hours ago, Mariama said:

Salam Miss Wonderful,

Homosexuality was removed from the DSM by the American Psychiatric Association in the early 70's. Hence, should not be viewed as a pathology. That will serve no one, only waste resources and cause a lot of pain to all those involved. 

 Let us assume the gay person is Muslim and doesn't want to disobey God.. Then through the Qur'an he/she would be guided if the person so believes. 

{And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient. Quran 2:155}

Thinking homosexuality is a pathology is dangerous. Imagine the treatment options that will arise due to this dilemma. You don't have to imagine it.. Just google conversion therapies. It's horrible. 

All you can do for your friend is accept him the way he is. If he's happy be happy for him(this isn't Islamic advice).

And remember... 

إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يُغَيِّرُ مَا بِقَوْمٍ حَتَّى يُغَيِّرُوا مَا بِأَنفُسِهِمْ

{"Allah does not change a people's lot unless they change what is in their hearts" Ar Raad 11}

If he had accepted himself no amount of "treatment" or advice can change him. It's a tricky subject so let's not hold firm to any opinion because of our upbringing and emotions. There is so much we don't know. 

WA salam wr wb Mariama,

ohhhhh sorry to have not been clear ! Lol I meant for them to think of it as a disease but like not get medically treated. Rather a gay Muslim could treat himself spiritually as you have mentioned.

I know treatments have been harsh for them in the past like electrical shockings like how they shock an elephant at the circus to do a trick. So bad.

 

 

Edited by Miss Wonderful

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6 hours ago, Bakir said:

You seriously need historical evidences of the injustice that the gay community has faced throughout history, and still faces?

It wasn't evidence for this that I hadn't seen. It was any evidence that Islam allows such behaviour. 

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@Haji 2003 I see. There exist different interpretations, but I wasn't arguing in favour or against any of them (in any case I addressed some in a topic I made a year ago "My research on Homosexuality"). The common orthodox approach is to deem it haram. But even within that belief, there still exist a variety of approaches to the topic.

I am not presenting any evidences here because these are not orthodox views and I have no interest in misleading anyone who follows an orthodox line in Islam. It never interested me. However, keep also in mind that you won't find any post from me supporting or holding a different positive religious view on homosexuality being allowed in this forum, nor you will see me doing that. Nevertheless, my words may imply that, and it's understandable. If I find something unfair, I will obviously speak up, but won't do it in the name of religion. I don't hide my humanistic background though. In my former post, leaving aside what religion says, I argued that from an ethical view, for me it seemed hypocritical that straights, who haven't suffered what gays have suffered throughout history, were precisely the ones telling us we can't marry because we are sick. Do they really have any idea in the first place?

I must also say I admire @notme in her approach, because she offered a simple but a very solid argument: "It is prohibited by Islam. No need for reasons here". This approach is millionth time better than sharing (honestly) hurtful opinions when people have absolutely no idea what it is like.

Edited by Bakir

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10 hours ago, Shaykh Patience101 said:

You didn't address the main problem raised in the OP itself that "this will in turn lead to other types of sexuality such as bestiality, incest, pedophilia, necrophilia..."

Because it doesn't. 

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1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Because it doesn't. 

 

Why are children who were sexually abused as children far more likely to grow up to become homosexual? The issue of pedophilia and homosexuality are actually very closely related. LOL anyone from the middle east or central and south Asia can tell you that.

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@magma

Because this is how it is. It is not a temporary problem for it to end. It has and will always exist.

 

@notme

Still, that approach of you is a lot better seriously, because your words don't imply that there must be necessarily a known reason or otherwise religion is wrong. Problem is that in this quest to find a reason, many just end up making it worse for gay muslims to face their life, by making up stupid hurtful theories about us when they have zero idea. 

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I haven't argued in favour of homosexuality not being a sin, that depends on each individual's beliefs and how he wants to live his freedom. What I consider a must is to stop this nonsense self-righteous approach many religious families tend to have towards their gay relatives expecting them to undergo therapies (they may want to avoid) that will only destroy their lives. Or the bullying at schools were gay is the common insult between the cool people. Or the institutional and professional discrimination that is masked behind a hypocritical behaviour. The list doesn't end.

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12 hours ago, Mariama said:

Salam ChritianLady,God, being just and graceful, does not do anything without reason.

Salam Mariama,

Amen!

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However, it is not necessary that we should know the reason of each and every Devine law/action. God is the most beneficial. Still we are ordered to think for ourselves.  

True, true, and true.

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"Indeed, the most disliked created beings in the Sight of God are the deaf and the dumb who do not use their intellect. (Quran, 8:22)

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them. (Quran, 17:36)"

That reminds me of what Jesus Christ said, quoting Prophet Isaiah: (I boldened some.)

 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts

and turn, and I would heal them.[Isaiah 6:9,10]

 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. - Matthew 13:14-17 (NIV)

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So for the sake of understanding.. 

It is inappropriate to compare homosexuality to incest and beastiality. 

 

Are you going to tell God that it is inappropriate to list homosexuality along with incest and bestiality in His sexual prohibition list?

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0318.htm

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Let us say that two consensual adult homosexuals do not wish to marry, since marriage is only for man/woman, is it still a sin? 

According to God, homosexuality in itself is sinful, an "abomination."

And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination. And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto; it is perversion. Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out from before you.  - Leviticus 18:21-24

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0318.htm

You can argue with God about it if you want. I don't think you'd find it beneficial to argue with Him, but you have free will.

 

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We have reached a place in science where reproducing can be done by donors. On the other hand there are entire countries, example Japan, who suffer low sub-replacement fertility(adult to child ratio) where homosexuality isn't a factor. Is t still a sin? 

Is heterosexual adultery still a sin? Yes.

Is homosexuality and bestiality and incest still sin? Yes.

Do many people today not like that homosexuality is a sin? Yes.

If people want to decide to throw God's commands into the trash, they should not be surprised on Judgement Day when they will be held accountable for their sin. Leviticus 18 gives a list as to what is sexual immorality. Whether people obey God's commands concerning sex or not is their decision. However, God judges the sexually immoral, as well as the other following sins:

He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” - Revelations 21:6-8 (NIV)

So, those who want to fight against God's commands, including His commands concerning sex, do so to their own peril, same as those who want to justify murder, cowardice, unbelief, vileness, magic, idolatry, and lies.

Peace and God bless you

 

Edited by Christianlady

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Even if you do not believe in therapies or homosexuality being reversible, how can you justify Muslims being openly gay, even without actually partaking in the act? I'm not saying that they should try to repress who they are on a personal level, but do they need to tell everyone of it and parade the fact that they have a greater inclination to a sin, in public? Using the same analogy mentioned earlier, if we take being gay as similar to having a greater inclination to do other sinful acts such as (and I use this only as an example, as murder and homosexuality are both sins in Islam) murder- if someone naturally has a harder time not murdering people, so to speak, does he need to tell all of his Muslim friends and relatives that he is proud to be like that?

I have no problem with people accepting that they are homosexual on a personal level- I am not saying that that is right or wrong, but it is their decision and it doesn't effect society as a whole. But I do have a problem with people saying that they all Muslims with these feelings should spread the word that they are publicly and proudly gay. Where do the Qur'anic verses on not spreading fahsha go?

How on earth can you reconcile this with the Islamic concept of haya?

Edited by Shaykh Patience101

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