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ShiaMan14

The anecdotal case FOR Marjaas.

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Here is a practical issue I faced that I had to refer to a marja for clarity. I would like for you to answer it in light of quran and ahadith of course.

I fly from the US to Japan regularly. My flight leaves at noon and arrives around noon the next day. Let's say I left US on Jan 1 at 12:30pm and arrived in Japan on Jan 2@ 12:30p. The sun stayed pretty much in the same position for most of my flight; it did not set nor rise. The date changed because I crossed the international dateline. Since I left before praying zohr/asr, what is my religious obligation here? Were my zohr/asr/maghrib/isha on Jan 1 and fajr on Jan 2 qaza? Do I need to offer them as qaza?

SImilarly, I leave Japan on Jan 7th after praying maghrib & Isha. I arrive in US on Jan 6th at 12pm. Am I obligated to pray zohr/asr/maghrib/isha/fajr again since I prayed those already in Japan?

I used a marja to help answer this question. I am interested to see if those against marajae and taqleed can answer this question. Apparently, even a child can explain the answer according to some.

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On 5/7/2016 at 0:48 AM, shiaman14 said:

Here is a practical issue I faced that I had to refer to a marja for clarity. I would like for you to answer it in light of quran and ahadith of course.

I fly from the US to Japan regularly. My flight leaves at noon and arrives around noon the next day. Let's say I left US on Jan 1 at 12:30pm and arrived in Japan on Jan 2@ 12:30p. The sun stayed pretty much in the same position for most of my flight; it did not set nor rise. The date changed because I crossed the international dateline. Since I left before praying zohr/asr, what is my religious obligation here? Were my zohr/asr/maghrib/isha on Jan 1 and fajr on Jan 2 qaza? Do I need to offer them as qaza?

SImilarly, I leave Japan on Jan 7th after praying maghrib & Isha. I arrive in US on Jan 6th at 12pm. Am I obligated to pray zohr/asr/maghrib/isha/fajr again since I prayed those already in Japan?

I used a marja to help answer this question. I am interested to see if those against marajae and taqleed can answer this question. Apparently, even a child can explain the answer according to some.

@StrugglingForTheLight - thoughts?

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I would asked people who thought and researched about this issue. In this case, the Marjaas.  If I I wanted to know for myself the reasons, I would ask them, what the reasons were.

Now does this prove Taqleed and the Marjaa system? No.

No one says there won't be learned people who know more then others. No one said ever not to consult with them and seek their knowledge.

What I argue is wrong is when someone put's full trust in one or few people, and then doesn't research issues themselves through out their lives, and specifically those things in which Quran clarified taking for granted scholars would never contradict Quran. 

We should never take for granted any leader or group of people won;'t contradict Quran. Then there is also the fact they might contradict reason. 

Or misuse reason.

We should not give people the right that people are excused to follow falsehood in the name of following those more learned then them.

There is stages of "takleef", and at certain stages, were are expected to question, to learn, and research issues.

And we are expected to be sincere to God's book and words, that we don't distort them to simply follow scholars.

As well, it's a duty for everyone to become Rabaniyooon, when this well happen, and at what stage in their lives, the takleef differs person to person, situation to situation, but the Quran shows all Prophets commanded their people to be learned while have zuhd of the dunya and teaching their knowledge to others.

The Ahlulbayt (as) wished for an enlightened society that collectively took the issue of judging by what God revealed and not taking any authority besides God, his Messenger, and the 12 Imams.....

 

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4 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

I think those who attacked the scholars informing the masses of knowledge have given up on their agenda.

I wish and pray it were so dear brother.

2 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

I would asked people who thought and researched about this issue. In this case, the Marjaas.  If I I wanted to know for myself the reasons, I would ask them, what the reasons were.

Now does this prove Taqleed and the Marjaa system? No.

No one says there won't be learned people who know more then others. No one said ever not to consult with them and seek their knowledge.

So you can provide an anecdotal case where you believe the marajae are wrong (proven otherwise) and discredit the whole system but when I do the opposite, it is not good enough?

2 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

What I argue is wrong is when someone put's full trust in one or few people, and then doesn't research issues themselves through out their lives, and specifically those things in which Quran clarified taking for granted scholars would never contradict Quran. 

We should never take for granted any leader or group of people won;'t contradict Quran. Then there is also the fact they might contradict reason. 

Or misuse reason.

We should not give people the right that people are excused to follow falsehood in the name of following those more learned then them.

There is stages of "takleef", and at certain stages, were are expected to question, to learn, and research issues.

And we are expected to be sincere to God's book and words, that we don't distort them to simply follow scholars.

As well, it's a duty for everyone to become Rabaniyooon, when this well happen, and at what stage in their lives, the takleef differs person to person, situation to situation, but the Quran shows all Prophets commanded their people to be learned while have zuhd of the dunya and teaching their knowledge to others.

By your own proclamation you have been studying deen for around 4 years and in such a short period of time you think you have determined that the marajae are all corrupt, illogical, misinforming individuals who are out to get everyone's khums money. Is that about right?

You have barely scratched the surface and yet you make these bold proclamations. You make a case against marajae using the apostate reference but then you dont even fully understand what an apostate is. You talk at length about the age of marriage yet fail to provide an proof for your argument.

Should we all learn deen - Absolutely.

Is it possible for all to learn deen - Absolutely not.

You will continue to struggle for the light if you can not understand such a simply concept.

2 hours ago, StrugglingForTheLight said:

The Ahlulbayt (as) wished for an enlightened society that collectively took the issue of judging by what God revealed and not taking any authority besides God, his Messenger, and the 12 Imams.....

Have you taken any authority besides Allah, his Messenger and the 12 Imams? Are you knowledgeable enough about the Quran? If so, then answer the question. If not, then I mean this in the best possible sense and think of it as big brotherly advice - shut up about marajae. They have done more for our faith than you can ever imagine.

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The reality is that taqleed is a temporary man-made that we should only rely on Allah (swt) and masumeen [as] for guidance. There are tons of narrations that speak against taqleed and it's practice. In regards to your question, I shall inquire into it but the reality is that not many will go through that situation.

If you left USA at 12;30PM and arrived in Japan at 12;30AM then I presume the time of Zuhr has already passed for you in which case you should have prayed your Zuhr/asr prayers then and not later. Also, if it was at 1pm then I'm sure you are able to pray on the plane?  So if you arrived in Japan at 12:30am then of course your Zuhr,asr,maghrib & Isha prayers would be Qadha (based on your statement).

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1 hour ago, Al-Hussayni said:

The reality is that taqleed is a temporary man-made that we should only rely on Allah (swt) and masumeen [as] for guidance.

That goes without saying. Taqleed is here during the Occultation of the Imam. During his minor occultation, he selected 4 individuals to represent him so the concept of a marja representing an Imam is not foreign.

1 hour ago, Al-Hussayni said:

There are tons of narrations that speak against taqleed and it's practice.

There are tons of narrations that speak FOR taqleed and it's practice.

1 hour ago, Al-Hussayni said:

In regards to your question, I shall inquire into it but the reality is that not many will go through that situation.

If you left USA at 12;30PM and arrived in Japan at 12;30AM then I presume the time of Zuhr has already passed for you in which case you should have prayed your Zuhr/asr prayers then and not later. Also, if it was at 1pm then I'm sure you are able to pray on the plane?  So if you arrived in Japan at 12:30am then of course your Zuhr,asr,maghrib & Isha prayers would be Qadha (based on your statement).

Left USA and 1230pm and arrived in Japan at 1230pm also but the date changed. Sun did not set during the entire journey.

BTW, I already know the answer from a very prominent scholar. The point of this exercise is to show the value of scholars and marajae as there are some who believe them to be corrupt individuals out to get all our khums money.

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On 6/28/2016 at 5:28 PM, Al-Hussayni said:

The reality is that taqleed is a temporary man-made that we should only rely on Allah (swt) and masumeen [as] for guidance. There are tons of narrations that speak against taqleed and it's practice. In regards to your question, I shall inquire into it but the reality is that not many will go through that situation.

If you left USA at 12;30PM and arrived in Japan at 12;30AM then I presume the time of Zuhr has already passed for you in which case you should have prayed your Zuhr/asr prayers then and not later. Also, if it was at 1pm then I'm sure you are able to pray on the plane?  So if you arrived in Japan at 12:30am then of course your Zuhr,asr,maghrib & Isha prayers would be Qadha (based on your statement).

Thats your opinion, but it only serves to prove your side of the argument is absolutely wrong.

Its confirmed in history, theology and logic that referring to the most knowledgeable is the preferred choice. This is what the Imams AS taught and instructed us to do.

What I think some people find confusing, or trips them up, is that they assume taqleed is somehow not following the Quran or the Sunnah. Whereas they couldnt be more wrong, by taqleed we are trying to find what is the reality of the Quran and the Sunnah in a particular situation. 

 

 

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I was coming back to the US from Istanbul on Jan 1st. My flight was at 2pm.

I prayed fajr at the hotel.

I prayed zuhr and asr as qasr. During the flight, it got dark so I prayed maghrib and Isha.

About half way into our flight, it started getting light outside so I prayed fajr and as soon as we landed, I prayed zuhr and asr and when it got dark, I prayed maghrib and isha. So I prayed 2 fajr salat, 2 zuhr, 2 asr, 2 maghrib and 2 isha salat since I departed Istanbul on Jan 1st and arrived state side on Jan 1.

Right or wrong?

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Only in Islam could such a complex discussion about prayer times occur. It is as if God is sitting there with His stopwatch, counting the seconds, watching the angle of the sun, waiting for you to mess up so he can take away from your reward.

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4 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

Only in Islam could such a complex discussion about prayer times occur.

Perhaps that's the point. That way prayer is discussed more and reflected upon than otherwise it would be. 

In every other field of study, especially the sciences and professional fields (especially medicine, law, and engineering), it's encouraged to discuss and dissect minutiae, with the hopes of elucidating and extracting benefit or understanding. Why not here too?

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45 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

Only in Islam could such a complex discussion about prayer times occur. It is as if God is sitting there with His stopwatch, counting the seconds, watching the angle of the sun, waiting for you to mess up so he can take away from your reward.

Islam says take 15-20 minutes (minimum) out of your day to worship Allah. 

Christianity says do whatever you want Sun 12p - Sun 8a but go to church Sun morning (8a-12p) and all will be well.

I guess based on the Christian premise, this seems complicated.

The answer to first issue of going to Japan from US and coming to US from Europe is exactly the same and ever so simple.

Allah causes the night to go into day and day to go into night. As such, the Gregorian calendar dates and international date lines are irrelevant to prayer times. if its dusk, pray fajr, if the Sun is past noon, pray zuhr/asr and if it is past dusk, pray the evening prayers.

While I thought the issue was really complicated, it took an aalim (scholar) seconds to resolve this matter. 

[Quran 57:6] He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He is Cognizant of what is in the hearts.

Since Allah caused my nights to enter upon the day and day to enter upon the night, my prayers were dedicated as such too. Such a simple answer to what seems ever so complicated.

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