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In the Name of God بسم الله
sefket83

How do Christian people explain trinity?

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2 hours ago, Ruq said:

Polytheists believe in more than one God or deity, Christians do not believe in more than one God or deity; theyre not polytheists. What they believe in may not make much sense to a person, but if a person doesnt understand they can just say ' i dont get that' and leave it, it wouldnt seem right to then drawn conclusions on their not understanding.

We all 'define' God; once you start talking about Him youre defining Him. We talk about His attributes/nature because the Quran does and because its natural for us to do so. The Quran is clearly saying something about the way Christians can talk about God and Jesus(as), but in order to understand how thats problematic you have to attempt to understand what Christians actually believe and not assume based on simplistic interpretations of the language being used. I'm really surprised youre saying this actually because i posted this

a while ago which you liked. How you can come away from that and think that David Bentley Hart is a polytheist (he's Eastern Orthodox) is completely beyond me.

 

i recommend the first sermon in nahjul balagha. Sorry for not wrtin much . i am busy but maybe later

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Hi Ruq,

 

Very good insight and understanding in your post and I would like to comment a little.

Quote from Saturday, May 7:

The Jews rejected Jesus(as) as a prophet and his message, yet they are People of the Book. Both Jews and Christians rejected Muhammad(saw) or parts of his teachings, yet they are People of the Book. So it must be true that you can reject but still be ahlul kitab, distinct from the polytheists, because your basic religion is monotheism with the basic moral teachings of revelation in common. Also, someone who rejects (or subscribes to something else) whilst recognising the truth is different from someone who rejects out of misunderstanding/confusion or because theyre compromised by something blocking them that theyre unaware of.

 

Response: --- If salvation comes from one's Faith in God, then the teaching they adhere to may differ, but the two important elements are Faith in God and obedience to Him.

Jesus said 'Follow Me," and He gave this instruction in John 5:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

 

While this is another 'topic' about 'trinity,' --- it doesn't really matter what individuals believe about these mysteries that they can't understand, --- salvation is still by Faith and obedience, is it not? --- So, as you say, we are different in our limited understanding.

 

Jesus said to the disciples in Surah 3:

50 "(I have come to you), to attest (confirm) the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me."

51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

--- Again in Surah 5:

5:47 "Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."

--- And later in Surah 5:

82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

--- When they hear Muhammad teach what they already believe they recognize the truth, and God responds to their Faith:

85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

 

--- So, in believing the truth that comes from God's revelation, --- it is those who believe it and are obedient to God's instruction, --- that will be saved, is that not right?

(More later)

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To continue:

Quote: The rabbis and priests may have knowingly over-ruled or added to the revelation of God, and that may have led to people effectively creating partners with God (that doesnt mean Christians per se are necessarily doing that though), but similar things have happened in the Muslim communities. We have also let leaders abrogate Quran, give other sources the same authority and distort the message of the Quran.

 

Response: --- That is so true. --- First the Jews began to add laws to the basic Commandments in the OT, and then they began to write their 'explanations of the Scripture,' so people were influenced by the explanations of other men, rather than studying to understand God's wisdom in the Scripture itself.

 

The Gospel Message continued with the Church Fathers in establishing Churches, but the Roman Government was always persecuting both the Jews and the Christians. --- Eventually the compromise was made to form a new Church called the "Roman Catholic Church", --- The word 'Catholic' meant 'Universal,' --- so the Romans finally got control and the result was new doctrines, new teachings including the faulty 'trinity' doctrine which isn't in the Scripture, --- the faulty teaching that Jesus was God, and the prayer they use, "Holy Mary, Mother of God. --- These teachings have deceived the multitudes.

 

While Salvation depends on Faith in God and following the Faith of Abraham, as it says also in the Quran, --- the Evangelical Churches continue the teaching from the first Church in Jerusalem after the Day of Pentecost, where the people 'practiced' their Faith in God in this way in Acts 2:

40 And with many other words he (Peter) testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."

41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43 Then fear (reverential awe) came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.

44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,

45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,

47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the Church daily those who were being saved.

 

When I read the Quran I was excited at what was included from both the OT and the Gospel Message, --- but I found that many are influencesd away from the Quran itself, by the hadiths, which are not inspired, --- Mr Pickthall, in his introduction, says this:

Quote: The words that came to him (Muhammad) while in a state of trance are held sacred by the Muslims and are never confounded with those which he uttered when no physical change was apparent in him. The former are the Sacred Book, the latter are 'Hadith' or 'Sunnah' of the Prophet. And because the angel on Mt Hira bade him "Read" --- insisting on his "Reading," though he was illiterate, the Sacred Book is known as Al-Quran, "The Reading," (or "The Lecture"). --- The Reading of the man who knew not how to read.

I accept Muhammad as a prophet to his people who was given the Mission of destroying idolatry in Arabia, and bringing the people back to the worship of our One God (which he did before his death). --- So, only the writing in the Quran is considered Sacred, or 'inspired by God,' --- or given by God's revelation to Muhammad, through the angel Gabriel. --- It speaks of God, giving him the revelations in his intellect, which he then taught to others before they were written down by others. --- I accept the Quran as the guide to those who surrender to God and follow the simple commandments given in Mecca about a year before Muhammad's death in year 10 of the Hijrah, where he was giving instructions for the 'right religionn' in Surah 9:

18 The mosques of God shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in God and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except God. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

19 Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in God and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of God? They are not comparable in the sight of God: and God guides not those who do wrong.

20 Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in God's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of God: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).

--- This is in harmony with the Christian Faith and 'good works' that lead to salvation. --- So for my study, and exchange with those like yourself, I use the Quran, only, no extra writings from hadith or others. --- I have been told that the 'Quran is the final authority,' --- therefore, it should be the 'First authority,' should it not?

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On 5/12/2016 at 11:30 AM, placid said:

Hi Ruq,

 

Very good insight and understanding in your post and I would like to comment a little.

Quote from Saturday, May 7:

The Jews rejected Jesus(as) as a prophet and his message, yet they are People of the Book. Both Jews and Christians rejected Muhammad(saw) or parts of his teachings, yet they are People of the Book. So it must be true that you can reject but still be ahlul kitab, distinct from the polytheists, because your basic religion is monotheism with the basic moral teachings of revelation in common. Also, someone who rejects (or subscribes to something else) whilst recognising the truth is different from someone who rejects out of misunderstanding/confusion or because theyre compromised by something blocking them that theyre unaware of.

 

Response: --- If salvation comes from one's Faith in God, then the teaching they adhere to may differ, but the two important elements are Faith in God and obedience to Him.

Jesus said 'Follow Me," and He gave this instruction in John 5:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

 

While this is another 'topic' about 'trinity,' --- it doesn't really matter what individuals believe about these mysteries that they can't understand, --- salvation is still by Faith and obedience, is it not? --- So, as you say, we are different in our limited understanding.

 

 

I thought this was interesting.  I would raise the question of, what does it mean to "believe in Him".  Different people are going to tell you different things about what His message is and what it means to be a believer/to believe in Him.

So, I dont really think quoting this verse above does anything for the discussion.

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Everybody needs a mediator. If you pray to your Imams then you must accept that Jesus is a mediator for Christians, or get to the back of the shirk lineup. 

Jesus never said He was God but He never said He was only human either. John described Jesus as "The Word" and the Word became flesh and walked among us. Jesus was human in every way but had the Spirit of God with him...and a word, as the Quran puts it. 

Not going to give out a bunch of verses, but an OT study can show you that not every time it makes a divine reference does it mean God Almighty. If every reference was about God He would be called Jehovah every time. 

I say Elohim, and everybody thinks it means God, but it actually means;

1) (plural) 
1a) rulers, judges 
1b) divine ones 
1c) angels 
1d) gods 
2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 
2a) god, goddess 
2b) godlike one 
2c) works or special possessions of God 
2d) the (true) God 
2e) God

There is a heirarchy. The Quran was right to tell Christians not to exagerate in their religion, but we're still in the dark about which sect of Christianity Muhammad was exposed to, and what they believed.

Everybody agrees God created angels. Everybody says God is everywhere and does everything. Why the angels? I don't believe God needed to create a cheering section to watch Him do everything Himself. Gabriel speaking to Muhammad is a perfect example of how God works. It is highly possible that long before the OT was even written that Gabriel was at least once called a god.The Spirit that God gave Jesus is no doubt older. The Spirit of Jesus knew how to create life out of clay. By God's leave, of course, but to even have a concept of creation you'd pretty much have to be there, see it, do it. To speak from the cradle means you already know the language and how to use it. To amaze the elders of the most reknowned church as a child means He knew more than they did.

I mentioned John described the Word becoming Jesus. (Not the other way around). Check Genesis, into Exodus and you notice that the "Word" was a very active being from the beginning. 

Way back when;

"And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you."

The "I Am" as He speaks is the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I Am", This was a direct reference to being there. Many things Jesus said didn't seem to make sense because the Spirit in Him spoke with such depth the normal person would have no idea. Part of the reason He spoke in parabels and still had to explain. 

 This was when the charge of blasphemy came up against Jesus because the Jews thought the I Am was Jehovah calling Himself Elohim. Of course, around the burning bush was the Angel of the Lord, the Spirit of the Lord, Jehovah who saw Moses, and Elohim who spoke. Confused yet? 

I'm of the opinion that the pre-Jesus "Word" was Gods first created servant. The Word was a pillar of smoke by day and of fire by night. The israelites believed it to be God Almighty, but how could a being as grand as God be a little cloud on earth? God is more likely to direct "Elohim" than do it Himself. Gabriel was also active, and didn't just come to life in time to teach Muhammad, Gabriel also came from way back when, and was probably present to witness the fall of satan.

How do you condense all that into a trinity? 

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25 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

Jesus never said He was God but He never said He was only human either. John described Jesus as "The Word" and the Word became flesh and walked among us. Jesus was human in every way but had the Spirit of God with him...and a word, as the Quran puts it. 

 

what is your understanding of the holy spirit ?

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Hi iCambrian,

 

Quote: I thought this was interesting. I would raise the question of, what does it mean to "believe in Him". Different people are going to tell you different things about what His message is and what it means to be a believer/to believe in Him.

So, I don't really think quoting this verse above does anything for the discussion.

 

Response: --- Yes, the term "Believe in Him." --- They are only words and they need some explanation. --- The verse from John 5 says:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

--- Believing in God begins in the NT with the first part, --- "He who 'hears' My word."

This refers to hearing with understanding. It doesn't mean just hearing with the ears what Jesus taught, as the 5000 did on the hillside, but only a few of them became disciples right away, however, they had 'heard' His word.

When He was teaching the 12 disciples who became his Apostles (except one) He said in John 14:

15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."

--- The Helper, the Holy Spirit was 'with them' in the Person of Jesus, --- and would be 'in them' after the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, when the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and believers that were gathered together. --- That was the 'outpouring of the Holy Spirit' that was given to the Jewish world, because there were reperesentatives from many countries at the Feast of Pentecost in Jerusalem. --- And the many who received Peter's message, believed, and as a result of their Faith in God and belief in Jesus Christ as the Jewish Messiah, they were 'filled with the Holy Spirit,' --- and added to the fellowship of believers.

 

It was not a new thing to Love God, because He said in Deuteronomy 6:

4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!

5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

 

In the New Testament Jesus Christ was the 'visible expression' of God among men.

Jesus was human, but was born without a human father, so was holy and blameless, therefore the Word, which was Spirit, and could not be seen by man, could 'indwell' the human body of Jesus, and speak through Him.

--- This is where the trinitarians get the idea that Jesus was God, because He spoke God's Message to the people, --- But it was the Word, who was 'with God from the beginning' (John 1:1), that spoke through Jesus.

 

God then sent the Apostles and Missionaries among the Gentiles to teach them the same message of Salvation by Faith in God, and to follow Jesus Christ. --- It says again in John 14:

25 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

 

So, in loving Jesus and following His teaching of the Gospel, we have received the 'indwelling Holy Spirit' even as the Apostles did. --- We love God, whom we have not seen, but our love is focused on Jesus who revealed God to us in a human form, so we can receive the promise, --- He who "believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

 

--- So, whether you accept it or not, this is what gives some of us the 'teaching ability' to explain the Scriptures. --- It is not of ourselves, but it is the indwelling Holy Spirit that can guide our thinking and can 'speak through us.'

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if you really want an understanding of the Trinity I suggest reading "On the Trinity" by St Augustine.

Then read more by St Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica

It is a Catholic Doctrine so go to the source

Etc...

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8 hours ago, placid said:

--- So, whether you accept it or not, this is what gives some of us the 'teaching ability' to explain the Scriptures. --- It is not of ourselves, but it is the indwelling Holy Spirit that can guide our thinking and can 'speak through us.'

Actually no, when Jesus breathed into the Apostles and gave them the power of the Holy Spirit he gave it to THEM ONLY, there were no other people around ok?

And if the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Truth remember, guides YOU in interpreting Scripture, then how come you guys (Protestants) disagree so much on the interpretation of Scripture, ever so more splitting into thousands of Churches?

Can you make mistakes Placid in your interpretation of Scripture? If you are guided by the Holy Spirit, then your answer must be NO, and thus you must be infallible, for the Holy Spirit is as I said is the Spirit of truth. If you can and admit that you may be wrong, then the Holy Spirit DOES NOT guide you!

Edited by shreek

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5 hours ago, shreek said:

Actually no, when Jesus breathed into the Apostles and gave them the power of the Holy Spirit he gave it to THEM ONLY, there were no other people around ok?

And if the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Truth remember, guides YOU in interpreting Scripture, then how come you guys (Protestants) disagree so much on the interpretation of Scripture, ever so more splitting into thousands of Churches?

Can you make mistakes Placid in your interpretation of Scripture? If you are guided by the Holy Spirit, then your answer must be NO, and thus you must be infallible, for the Holy Spirit is as I said is the Spirit of truth. If you can and admit that you may be wrong, then the Holy Spirit DOES NOT guide you!

Peace and may God be with you

Edited by sefket83

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Quote from Sat May 14:

Actually no, when Jesus breathed into the Apostles and gave them the power of the Holy Spirit he gave it to THEM ONLY, there were no other people around ok?

 

In Acts 2, when the Holy Spirit was given it mentions the number of about 120 that were waiting at Jerusalem for this promise of the Holy Spirit, and after the Holy Spirit fell on them and they spoke in the languages of the people, everyone was attentive to the Apostles, and Peter stood up and explained all that had happened, and he ended in this way in Acts 2:

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."

41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

--- These were the four practices of the first Church and are still the practices of Evangelical Churches today who follow the pattern of the First Church in the Book of Acts, --- they are: --- The teaching of the Gospel Message that Jesus taught the Apostles. --- in fellowship in a spirit of harmony, --- in Communion with one another in the service of the Lord, and in Communion with Him. --- And everything is bathed in prayer.

 

Of the Jews who came to Jerusalem from many countries for the Feast of Pentecost, they believed and were baptized, and by their Faith and sincerety, they would receive the Holy Spirit. --- And notice these words:

"For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

--- So the promise was given to all true believers, --- and later Peter was invited to the home of Cornelius, a Gentile and this happened in Acts 10:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.

35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—

37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:

38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

 

42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.

43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

45 And those of the circumcision (the Jews) who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,

47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

--- And the later ministry of Paul to the Gentiles was to people who repented, received Jesus as their Savior, and were filled with the Holy Spirit. --- This still happens today that people who believe in God and surrender their lives to follow the teaching of Jesus, --- they receive the Holy Spirit. --- They don't always speak in other languages, because that was the sign given on the Day of Pentecost, and other times when the Holy Spirit spoke through the Apostles in the languages of the Peoples' birth.

 

So as the Holy Spirit guides us in understanding Gods word, He guides us in speaking, or writing it as well.

However, the Holy Spirit doesnèt CONTROL us so that we dont make mistakes, because we have freedom of choice, but if our choice is always to serve the Lord, then we have less chance of doing selfish things that are apt to lead to wrong choices.

The Scripture says: --- Quench not the Spirit, 1 Thesalonians 5:19. --- That means that the Lord can give us a message for someone, and we dont want to give it, --- so we can overrule the guidance of the Holy Spirit. --- (But we quickly learn that we are to be obedient in everything.)

Also it says, --- Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, Ephesians 4:30 --- We can grieve the Holy Spirit in things we say which are unkind or critical of others, or in repeating an off colored joke, or anything that is not pleasing in our witness for God.

--- The Christian life is living in obedience to Gods will and in the guidance of the Holy Spirit. --- We can, and do, make mistakes, because of our human nature.

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Hi Ruq,

 

To conclude from your post from May 7:

Christians may believe that Jesus(as) has a devine element to him, but it seems to me that the overwhelming majority of Christians historically and currently have an almost identical understanding of what the word 'God' points towards as Islam teaches. The issue really seems to be the way they understand Jesus(as) and the language around that, and although on the surface it looks similar to the way mushriks in Arabia were giving Allah daughters, when you take a closer look its not the same. Its problematic, and it could be that some Christians have understood the Jesus/God relationship in an even more problematic way than most do now, but generally and for the most part it seems to me that their understanding doesnt push them from tawheed like clear-cut polytheism does.

 

Response: --- Yes, you say: "It seems to me that the overwhelming majority of Christians historically and currently have an almost identical understanding of what the word 'God' points towards as Islam teaches."

--- The difference might be that we pray directly to God, as we were instructed by Jesus, in Matthew 6:

9 In this manner therefore pray, "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name."

(So, this is praying to God directly and acknowledging His Holiness at the mention of His name.)

--- Calling God our 'Heavenly Father,' as Jesus taught us, gives us the identification of being 'adopted' into 'the Family of God.' --- And Jesus said we should end our prayer, 'In Jesus' name,' acknowledging our relationship to God through Jesus. --- Anyone can say, "Our Father in heaven,' and ask it 'in Jesus' name' --- but if it is not sincere, then the prayer will be unanswered. --- Jesus also said in Matthew 21:

22 "And whatever things you ask in prayer, 'believing,' you will receive."

And it is answered prayer that keeps us trusting God to guide us in everything through life.

 

--- (The reality is that, 'we didn't ask to be here,' did we? --- But since we are here, and have the intelligence to contact God, who is able to save us from this temporal life, to eternal life, --- then every avenue needs to be explored to find His way, --- does it not?)

As Christians, we can follow Jesus, in these words in Surah 3:

50 "And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a Sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to God and obey me.

51 Lo! God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."

 

--- So we believe the Torah, the OT, which is emphasized in the NT and the Quran, --- we follow (obey) the teaching of Jesus. --- we believe in God and worship Him.

--- If both the Gospels and the Quran tell me that this is the "Straight Path," --- then I don't want to get off of it.

--- When we know the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, that God gives to 'indwell' us, then we simply need to follow, --- as it says again in Surah 5:

47 "Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel." --- (There are many so-called Christians who are disobedient to God.)

 

Chaotic Muslim said in response to your post:

"Son of Placid and Placid, 2 Christians who now can testify that Jesus never said that he is God. Jesus was a human and human only."

--- But he is not right in saying Jesus 'was human only.'

Jesus was born with no human father, so His Essense came from God. --- It says in Surah 19:

19 He (the angel) said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."

20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

 

Notice, Jesus was a Sign unto men, and a Mercy, (compassion and blessing, leading to eternal life) from God. --- (Notice also 'Sign from your Lord' in 3:50.)

Jesus was pure and blameless so He was the perfect Redeemer for mankind, --- for those who believe, --- but He was human, born of a human mother, and would have her DNA.

Jesus had to be a 'holy Vessel' for the Word, and the Holy Spirit to indwelt, --- so Jesus was human, but the Word and the Holy Spirit were of God, --- so of Divinity.

 

There are many that complicate the mystery of who God is, --- but if He made us, and loves us, and guides us through this life to his Eternal home, we simply need to believe in Him as Almighty God and be obedient.

 

--- Another promise of eternal life for believers is from the Christians at Madinah in Surah 5:

83 And when they (the Christians) listen to the revelation received by the Apostle (Muhammad), thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

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On 5/14/2016 at 1:37 AM, Chaotic Muslem said:

what is your understanding of the holy spirit ?

Good question. Sorry, a little long in replying here.

I'm not overly sure to be honest.One thing mentioned in the NT is that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. That suggests to me that trying to contain it in a description might not be the best made plan. There have been times in my life that during study and prayer I have had a warmth come over me like a perfect fitting onesy, I've been present when other people have felt, or seen things, and has spoken to me three times, once after saving my life, (or at least extreme injury), once in preparing me for a major life change, and once was a warning. I questioned the warning as there were no signs of the danger, and then it struck...Haven't heard anything since the day I should have heeded the warning. 

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21 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Good question. Sorry, a little long in replying here.

I'm not overly sure to be honest.One thing mentioned in the NT is that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. That suggests to me that trying to contain it in a description might not be the best made plan. There have been times in my life that during study and prayer I have had a warmth come over me like a perfect fitting onesy, I've been present when other people have felt, or seen things, and has spoken to me three times, once after saving my life, (or at least extreme injury), once in preparing me for a major life change, and once was a warning. I questioned the warning as there were no signs of the danger, and then it struck...Haven't heard anything since the day I should have heeded the warning. 

Thank you. This is interesting. In Shia Islam, Rouh Al Qudus ( similar to the hebrew words) or holy spirit is a great creation that Allah made to empower the believers, mostly prophets and saints but occasionally  a regular person.

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12 hours ago, Chaotic Muslem said:

Thank you. This is interesting. In Shia Islam, Rouh Al Qudus ( similar to the hebrew words) or holy spirit is a great creation that Allah made to empower the believers, mostly prophets and saints but occasionally  a regular person.

I do believe that from the events after Jesus rose that things changed. From my studies I suspect that at the time of the death of Jesus the sky was darkened, and it was satan and his angels being cast out of heaven, sent to reside on earth. From the day of Pentecost The Holy Spirit came to do as you say. Along with it came gifts of the spirit. I did receive a gift of discernment, would have exchanged it for wisdom any day but it would seem God saw fit to have me discern and rebuke spirits. Nothing like Wynonna Earp tho. 

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