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Are there some scholars and marjas against "wilayat faqi" ?

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On 01.05.2016 at 0:45 AM, Shiawarrior313 said:

For Shias who are against WF, they have to be able to explain how they will bring about Islam into the folds of the society and pave the way for the return of Imam Mahdi.

I've never seen in any hadith that Imams a.s. commanded shias to establish a state before Qaim a.s. comes. Infact, there are hadiths suggesting otherwise. If you know, please share with us.

***

Ali bin Ahmad narrated from Obaydillah bin Musa al-Alawi from Muhammad bin al-Husayn from Muhammad bin Sinan from Ammar bin Marwan from Munakhkhal bin Jameel from Jabir bin Yazeed that Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (as) had said:

“Be quiet as long as the Heaven and the earth are quiet! Do not rebel against any one. Your matter is clear and not vague but it is a sign from Allah and not from people. It is brighter than the sun. It is neither ignored by a pious nor by a dissolute. Do you see morning? It is like morning, which is clear to everyone.”

***

Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Sa'eed narrated from Yahya bin Zakariyya bin Shayban from Yousuf bin Kulayb al-Mass’oodi from al-Hakam bin Sulayman from Muhammad bin Kuthayr that Abu Bakr al-Hadhrami had said: Once Abban and I came to Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (as) when the black banners (revolts) had been raised in Khurasan (Persia). We asked him: “What do you think about that?” He said:

“Stay at home and when you see us agree unanimously upon a man, then hurry to us with your weapons.”

***

On 02.05.2016 at 8:47 PM, mostafaa said:

Salam Alaykum

Shia community must be led by an Imam and when the Imam is not present the most similar one is a pious faqih.

This is a vague statement, because we can't distinguish a person truly in the heart if he is pious or not.

Even if we assume that's the case, that person can't be the one who translates the books of a salafi(?) called Qutb, who was a high ranked member of a savage organization called Muslim Brotherhood.

Edited by celestial

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23 minutes ago, celestial said:

Ali bin Ahmad narrated from Obaydillah bin Musa al-Alawi from Muhammad bin al-Husayn from Muhammad bin Sinan from Ammar bin Marwan from Munakhkhal bin Jameel from Jabir bin Yazeed that Abu Ja'far al-Baqir (as) had said:

“Be quiet as long as the Heaven and the earth are quiet! Do not rebel against any one. Your matter is clear and not vague but it is a sign from Allah and not from people. It is brighter than the sun. It is neither ignored by a pious nor by a dissolute. Do you see morning? It is like morning, which is clear to everyone.”

***

Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Sa'eed narrated from Yahya bin Zakariyya bin Shayban from Yousuf bin Kulayb al-Mass’oodi from al-Hakam bin Sulayman from Muhammad bin Kuthayr that Abu Bakr al-Hadhrami had said: Once Abban and I came to Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (as) when the black banners (revolts) had been raised in Khurasan (Persia). We asked him: “What do you think about that?” He said:

“Stay at home and when you see us agree unanimously upon a man, then hurry to us with your weapons.”

Can you authenticate either of these ahadith?

They are both from Bihar ul-Anwar, which is not exactly the most authentic hadith collection.

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4 minutes ago, Shaykh Patience101 said:

Can you authenticate either of these ahadith?

They are both from Bihar ul-Anwar, which is not exactly the most authentic hadith collection.

They are from the Kitab Al-Ghayba, The Book of Occultation.

I don't know if they are authentic or not...

http://www.al-islam.org/kitab-al-ghayba-book-occultation-sheikh-an-numani

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3 minutes ago, celestial said:

They are from the Kitab Al-Ghayba, The Book of Occultation.

I don't know if they are authentic or not...

http://www.al-islam.org/kitab-al-ghayba-book-occultation-sheikh-an-numani

The sources of both are listed as Bihar ul-Anwar.

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4 minutes ago, Shaykh Patience101 said:

The sources of both are listed as Bihar ul-Anwar.

I'll leave that to someone with knowledge in that field, cause I don't know the ilm ar-rijal.

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On 02.05.2016 at 4:02 AM, Dhulfikar said:

Reason is that Iran do have influence towards Shi'a politics in Iraq.

Don't you see that intervention of Iran sows seeds of enmity between two Shia nations?

Iraqis don't have a problem with Iranians. Millions highly respect and love an Iranian marja, Ayatollah Sistani.

Problem is the behavior of Iran. They try to overtake Iraq. If I was an Iraqi, I'd be pissed off too.

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4 hours ago, celestial said:

Don't you see that intervention of Iran sows seeds of enmity between two Shia nations?

Iraqis don't have a problem with Iranians. Millions highly respect and love an Iranian marja, Ayatollah Sistani.

Problem is the behavior of Iran. They try to overtake Iraq. If I was an Iraqi, I'd be pissed off too.

Iraq went to war with Iran and there is still a lot of mutual dislike on both sides. Iran's help in Iraq (such as qassem soleiman/ the fight against ISIS) was generally well appreciated by the Iraqi government and people. 

Iraq wont ever submit to the WF system so Iranian efforts to influence it to happen are more a serious annoyance for Iraqi people than any source of deep seated hatred 

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6 hours ago, celestial said:

Don't you see that intervention of Iran sows seeds of enmity between two Shia nations?

Iraqis don't have a problem with Iranians. Millions highly respect and love an Iranian marja, Ayatollah Sistani.

Problem is the behavior of Iran. They try to overtake Iraq. If I was an Iraqi, I'd be pissed off too.

Al sistani is iraqi...whats wrong with you..

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It is Iran that is saving Iraq from the imperialist plots. When Isis began its advancements in Iraq, Iraqi cities one after another fell, in a coordinated conspiracy from within, where the Iraqi army fell apart from within. It was at this point that general Suleiman stopped the Isis advances towards Baghdad and began the push back, giving time for the Iraqis to get their act togather. Without Iran, Baghdad would have fallen as well. This is just one example of Iran reaching out.

http://en.alalam.ir/news/1653760

 

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On ‎2016‎-‎05‎-‎04 at 9:56 AM, celestial said:

I've never seen in any hadith that Imams a.s. commanded shias to establish a state before Qaim a.s. comes. Infact, there are hadiths suggesting otherwise. If you know, please share with us

Maqbulah of ‘Umar ibn Hanzalah:

Imam as-Sadiq (‘a) says:

مَنْ كَانَ مِنْكُمْ قَدْ رَوىٰ حَدِيثُنَا وَ نَظَرَ في حَلاَلِنَا وَ حَرَامِنَا وَ عَرَفَ أَحْكَامَنَا فَلْيَرْضُوا بِهِ حَكَمًا فَإِنّي قَدْ جَعَلْتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ حَاكِمًا فَإِذَا حَكَمَ بِحُكْمِنَا فَلَمْ يَقْبَلْهُ مِنْهُ فَإِنَّمَا إِسْتَخَفَّ بِحُكْمِ اللهِ وَ عَلَيْنَا رَدَّ وَ الرَّادُّ عَلَيْنَا كَالرَّادَّ عَلىٰ حَدِّ الشِّرْكِ بِاللهِ.

If there is a person among you who narrates from us, is versed in the lawful and the unlawful, and is well acquainted with our laws and ordinances, accept him as judge and arbiter, for I have appointed him as a ruler over you. So, if he rules according to our law and you reject his ruling, you will belittle Allah’s law and oppose us, and to oppose us means to oppose Allah, and opposing Him is tantamount to associating partners with Him.” ”

[Usūl al-Kāfī, vol. 1, p. 67; Wasā’il ash-Shī‘ah, vol. 18, 98; Al-Tusi, Tahzib al- Ahkam , Kitab al-Qada, Volume 6, p. 218, Hadith 514; Shaykh al-Ansari, Kitab al-Qada wa al-Shahadat, p. 48]

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Necessity of bringing out Islam to the folds of society through Islamic government for paving the path for imam Mahdi:

- The dominant ideology in the world today is the western liberal ideology. To their credit, over the past 300 years, they have been able to turn their ideology into a unified system of 1400+ parts. This includes expanding from the humanistic and darwinistic ideology, were we are evolved animals, to brining about economic, political, educational, scientific... systems with the same themes. The output of this is a western lifestyle. Unfortunately, this system, in large parts, is in conflict with Islamic values and if embraced will direct the society from god fearing to a secular and materialistic one. Movement from light to darkness.

- An example here is RIBA (usury), which is as Quran describes it, war against Allah. If in the past, we could refrain from usury at individual level, and deal with those individuals dealing with usury, today, its the essential part of the economic system, where the banking system cannot operate without it. This results in majority of the Muslims in the society becoming contaminated by usury, where they will move further and further away from Islam and consequently, readiness for return of Imam Mahdi. To combat this, an entire new economic model needs to be developed, based on Quran and the teaching of ahlul bait. One that has no room for usury. Implementing such system will raise the faith of the masses and ascend the society, paving the way for return of the infallible imam. Expand this to 1400+ systems, and you will get the picture.

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1 hour ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

Maqbulah of ‘Umar ibn Hanzalah:

“Imam as-Sadiq (‘a) says:

مَنْ كَانَ مِنْكُمْ قَدْ رَوىٰ حَدِيثُنَا وَ نَظَرَ في حَلاَلِنَا وَ حَرَامِنَا وَ عَرَفَ أَحْكَامَنَا فَلْيَرْضُوا بِهِ حَكَمًا فَإِنّي قَدْ جَعَلْتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ حَاكِمًا فَإِذَا حَكَمَ بِحُكْمِنَا فَلَمْ يَقْبَلْهُ مِنْهُ فَإِنَّمَا إِسْتَخَفَّ بِحُكْمِ اللهِ وَ عَلَيْنَا رَدَّ وَ الرَّادُّ عَلَيْنَا كَالرَّادَّ عَلىٰ حَدِّ الشِّرْكِ بِاللهِ.

“If there is a person among you who narrates from us, is versed in the lawful and the unlawful, and is well acquainted with our laws and ordinances, accept him as judge and arbiter, for I have appointed him as a ruler over you. So, if he rules according to our law and you reject his ruling, you will belittle Allah’s law and oppose us, and to oppose us means to oppose Allah, and opposing Him is tantamount to associating partners with Him.” ”

[Usūl al-Kāfī, vol. 1, p. 67; Wasā’il ash-Shī‘ah, vol. 18, 98; Al-Tusi, Tahzib al- Ahkam , Kitab al-Qada, Volume 6, p. 218, Hadith 514; Shaykh al-Ansari, Kitab al-Qada wa al-Shahadat, p. 48]

 

I dont even know where to start picking this apart

first of all - this is talking about taqleed in general, and not a nation state.

secondly - is sayed khameneis main role as a judge and arbiter? is that what he spends all his days doing?

thirdly - isnt it obvious that the word "ruler" does not fit in the context of a ruler of a nation, but rather the "rule" of a judge and arbiter in matters which need judgement and arbitration?

fourthly - sayed khamenei does not even fit the criteria in this hadith since he has not studied islamic fiqh anywhere near the levels of marjas like sayed sistani or basheer najafy or vahid khorasani or sayed sadeq rouhani etc

fifthly - these are not even the criteria which were used to select sayed khamenei as WF! so his selection goes against the same hadith which you are using to defend his position!

4 hours ago, Althaqalayn12 said:

Al sistani is iraqi...whats wrong with you..

Ive met him twice. he is 100% iranian. he speaks farsi and is translated into urdu,

On 04/05/2016 at 5:56 PM, celestial said:

I've never seen in any hadith that Imams a.s. commanded shias to establish a state before Qaim a.s. comes. Infact, there are hadiths suggesting otherwise. If you know, please share with us.

there is none.

if anything, Imam Mahdi (atfs) will rule from Iraq, not Iran. since his home & the seat of his government will be masjid Sahla (near Najaf)

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1 hour ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

It is Iran that is saving Iraq from the imperialist plots. When Isis began its advancements in Iraq, Iraqi cities one after another fell, in a coordinated conspiracy from within, where the Iraqi army fell apart from within. It was at this point that general Suleiman stopped the Isis advances towards Baghdad and began the push back, giving time for the Iraqis to get their act togather. Without Iran, Baghdad would have fallen as well. This is just one example of Iran reaching out.

http://en.alalam.ir/news/1653760

the entire planet needs to thank Iran. It alone turned ISIS away from their well planned, well funded, well orchestrated mission to create a new country, backed by western powers intent on buying cheap oil from turkey through the baiji plant no matter what happened to people within the so called state. the maloons had minted coins and passports ready!

khair, they planned, and Allah planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

do not judge Iraq or Iraqi people too harshly - bear in mind their country has been torn into pieces after 10+ years of an unjust war, successive attempts at stable governship have all flopped, the army was cleverly disbanded, the police was cleverly disbanded, so iraqi people are sort of teaching themselves from scratch how to rebuild their country. in the middle of this mess, ISIS rose. what did you expect?

 

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2 hours ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

It is Iran that is saving Iraq from the imperialist plots. When Isis began its advancements in Iraq, Iraqi cities one after another fell, in a coordinated conspiracy from within, where the Iraqi army fell apart from within. It was at this point that general Suleiman stopped the Isis advances towards Baghdad and began the push back, giving time for the Iraqis to get their act togather. Without Iran, Baghdad would have fallen as well. This is just one example of Iran reaching out.

http://en.alalam.ir/news/1653760

 

I appreciate efforts of Shia soldiers in middle east, whether they are fighting in Assad's army, Hezbollah's army or Iran's army. They don't need my praise, as their reward from God awaits them.

The problem is, politics is different than war.

The western coalition and Russia also fights against ISIS (whether they're sincere or not), so should an average Iraqi close his eyes and accept if these countries intervene with his country's internal affairs because they help them?

Helping is a thing, intervening or forcing your political ways is another thing. Helping against ISIS or alike is a duty for all of us. It's a duty for all who call themselves human.

 

Edited by celestial

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1 hour ago, DigitalUmmah said:

I dont even know where to start picking this apart

first of all - this is talking about taqleed in general, and not a nation state.

secondly - is sayed khameneis main role as a judge and arbiter? is that what he spends all his days doing?

thirdly - isnt it obvious that the word "ruler" does not fit in the context of a ruler of a nation, but rather the "rule" of a judge and arbiter in matters which need judgement and arbitration?

fourthly - sayed khamenei does not even fit the criteria in this hadith since he has not studied islamic fiqh anywhere near the levels of marjas like sayed sistani or basheer najafy or vahid khorasani or sayed sadeq rouhani etc

fifthly - these are not even the criteria which were used to select sayed khamenei as WF! so his selection goes against the same hadith which you are using to defend his position!

1) do not make assumptions. Is there distinction from social laws and personal laws? Can a Marja not give hukm for jihad? Can they not give hukm for forbidding usury as social level and then give alternate system for its replacement. If the masses are willing to follow marjayat, can they not direct the society?

2) is judging done only in courts? Judgment on the direction of society, what's important and what's not important. Does that not fall into it?

3) no its not obvious. No distinction from social and personal. One cannot limit Islam to mere mosques and a few rituals. Islam is a social religion. This is what Islam is all about.

4) speak less nonsense. Without getting to imam Khamenei, will you make the same claim to imam Khamenei or are you just looking for excuses?

5) Imam Khamenei meets all the criteria, and is recognized for that. Will you say the same thing about Imam Khomeini?

- Authority in Islam is in the form of welayat. Welayat of Allah, welayat of taguts. This hadith is establishing that scholars who meet the criteria, have welayat over us, and that welayat is connected to the welayat of ahlul bait and Allah. Welayat does not distinguish on personal vs social aspects.

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do not judge Iraq or Iraqi people too harshly - bear in mind their country has been torn into pieces after 10+ years of an unjust war, successive attempts at stable governship have all flopped, the army was cleverly disbanded, the police was cleverly disbanded, so iraqi people are sort of teaching themselves from scratch how to rebuild their country. in the middle of this mess, ISIS rose. what did you expect?

I don't have such a belief that your statement could be correct. Iraq is very mess country with very mess laws with very mess government and with very mess people. The people don't handle the laws correctly, nor do they progress in government nor do they care a bit of their own people.

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16 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

1) do not make assumptions. Is there distinction from social laws and personal laws?

obviously there are. the rules that apply to muslims do not apply to non muslims. do I need to explain this to you?

17 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

Can a Marja not give hukm for jihad?

no one can give a hukm but a masum, and no one can call for offensive jihad but a masum. defensive jihad is self apparant as self defence is wajib

18 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

Can they not give hukm for forbidding usury as social level and then give alternate system for its replacement. If the masses are willing to follow marjayat,

see my previous point regarding a hukm, and what system as an alternate to usury currently is there?

19 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

can they not direct the society?

sure they can. but theres a difference between something being a good idea and something being instructed by the masumeen.

20 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

2) is judging done only in courts?

obviously.

20 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

Judgment on the direction of society, what's important and what's not important. Does that not fall into it?

no, read the hadith again, carefully this time.

20 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

3) no its not obvious. No distinction from social and personal.

how many judges currently run nation states?

21 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

One cannot limit Islam to mere mosques and a few rituals

is that what I am suggesting?

21 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

Islam is a social religion. This is what Islam is all about.

am I doubting this?

22 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

4) speak less nonsense. Without getting to imam Khamenei, will you make the same claim to imam Khamenei or are you just looking for excuses?

its an unquestionable fact that sayed khamenei has not studied islam anywhere near the level of our top maraji.

22 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

5) Imam Khamenei meets all the criteria, and is recognized for that. Will you say the same thing about Imam Khomeini?

no, sayed khomeini was fully qualified.

23 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

- Authority in Islam is in the form of welayat. Welayat of Allah, welayat of taguts. This hadith is establishing that scholars who meet the criteria, have welayat over us, and that welayat is connected to the welayat of ahlul bait and Allah. Welayat does not distinguish on personal vs social aspects.

yes it does. is the wilayat of a man looking after an orphan child, the exact same wilayat of a man in charge of a country of sane, educated adults capable of making their own decisions? obviously there are differences. use your intelligence.

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32 minutes ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

1) do not make assumptions. Is there distinction from social laws and personal laws? Can a Marja not give hukm for jihad? Can they not give hukm for forbidding usury as social level and then give alternate system for its replacement. If the masses are willing to follow marjayat, can they not direct the society?

2) is judging done only in courts? Judgment on the direction of society, what's important and what's not important. Does that not fall into it?

3) no its not obvious. No distinction from social and personal. One cannot limit Islam to mere mosques and a few rituals. Islam is a social religion. This is what Islam is all about.

4) speak less nonsense. Without getting to imam Khamenei, will you make the same claim to imam Khamenei or are you just looking for excuses?

5) Imam Khamenei meets all the criteria, and is recognized for that. Will you say the same thing about Imam Khomeini?

- Authority in Islam is in the form of welayat. Welayat of Allah, welayat of taguts. This hadith is establishing that scholars who meet the criteria, have welayat over us, and that welayat is connected to the welayat of ahlul bait and Allah. Welayat does not distinguish on personal vs social aspects.

The hadith talks about Taqlid. 

“If there is a person among you who narrates from us, is versed in the lawful and the unlawful, and is well acquainted with our laws and ordinances, accept him as judge and arbiter, for I have appointed him as a ruler over you. So, if he rules according to our law and you reject his ruling, you will belittle Allah’s law and oppose us, and to oppose us means to oppose Allah, and opposing Him is tantamount to associating partners with Him.” ”

The red part is actually very reasonable with this hadith:
 

٣ - محمد بن إسماعيل، عن الفضل بن شاذان، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن ربعي ابن عبد الله، عن أبي بصير، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام في قول الله عز وجل: " اتخذوا أحبارهم ورهبانهم أربابا من دون الله " فقال: والله ما صاموا لهم ولا صلوا لهم ولكن أحلوا لهم حراما وحرموا عليهم حلالا فاتبعوهم.

3 – Muhammad b. Isma`il from al-Fadl b. Shadhan from Hammad b. `Isa from Rib`i b. `Abdullah from Abu Basir from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding the saying of Allah عزّ وجلّ “They took their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from Allah”.  So he said: By Allah, they did not fast for them, nor did they pray to them, rather they made allowed for them (something) forbidden, and forbade upon them (something) allowed, so they followed them. (majhool ka’s-sahih)

And this hadith also talks about Taqlid.

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5 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

 

Ive met him twice. he is 100% iranian. he speaks farsi and is translated into urdu,

He's an Iraqi Marja not Iraqi citizen that's what I meant besides, Celestial said," Don't you see that intervention of Iran sows seeds of enmity between two Shia nations?" Which is funny because the majority of shia almost all in Iraq follow Ayatollah Ali sistani, whose an Irani...lol...and we love Iran and Hezbollah...<--that's the point I was trying to make.

 

I am an Iraqi myself while celestial is a turk and talking from outside the country with nonsense..hes just angry Iran is arming the Kurds against ErDOGan 

Edited by aIthaqalayn12

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2 hours ago, celestial said:

I appreciate efforts of Shia soldiers in middle east, whether they are fighting in Assad's army, Hezbollah's army or Iran's army. They don't need my praise, as their reward from God awaits them.

The problem is, politics is different than war.

The western coalition and Russia also fights against ISIS (whether they're sincere or not), so should an average Iraqi close his eyes and accept if these countries intervene with his country's internal affairs because they help them?

Helping is a thing, intervening or forcing your political ways is another thing. Helping against ISIS or alike is a duty for all of us. It's a duty for all who call themselves human.

 

Two points can be made here:

1) unlike other nations, Iran and Iraq are both Shia nations, part of the same ummah. Eventually, there should be no distinction between these 2 countries, leading to a full union between them.

2) Iraq, at the current state, is as incapable of fending off itself against political invasion as it is military ones. Both institutions are extremely corrupt and weak. Without Iranian Shias, Iraq would have fallen militarily to Isis (western sponsored, indirectly coordinated) quite easily. Politically, Iraq has the same enemies. Supplementing their efforts to disintegrate the country in 3 distinct states, the west also, uses their influence in the political arena to throw in roadblocks against the military and militias fighting Isis. One of the reasons why there was a hindrance in Iraq's response to Isis at initial stages was the artificial chaos created in the Iraqi government, where nothing could be accomplished. This is when the US forced Maliki out and brought in their own more agreeable leader. Iran went along with this cause they needed unity in the Iraqi government for the military response against Isis to begin. Now, every once in a while we hear from Iraqi commanders and militia leaders that the current Iraqi government is hindering their efforts in fighting Isis , or that the US is given green light to increase their presence in the country.

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151204/1031228867/us-iraqi-forces-ramadi.html

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On 5/2/2016 at 0:59 AM, celestial said:

 

Please read carefully.

And also, his theory was different than khomeini's.

Please read the thread name carefully and it's contents, and read your posts. Totally off topic.

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1) unlike other nations, Iran and Iraq are both Shia nations, part of the same ummah. Eventually, there should be no distinction between these 2 countries, leading to a full union between them.

No. In Islam we are same Ummah, but Iraq and Iran are two different country with different History. No Iraqi wants union as an country with Iran, nor any Irani wants an union as an country with Iraq.

 

Edited by Dhulfikar

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7 hours ago, aIthaqalayn12 said:

He's an Iraqi Marja not Iraqi citizen that's what I meant besides, Celestial said," Don't you see that intervention of Iran sows seeds of enmity between two Shia nations?" Which is funny because the majority of shia almost all in Iraq follow Ayatollah Ali sistani, whose an Irani...lol...and we love Iran and Hezbollah...<--that's the point I was trying to make.

 

I am an Iraqi myself while celestial is a turk and talking from outside the country with nonsense..hes just angry Iran is arming the Kurds against ErDOGan 

This is a bold confession. So, the "Islamic" Iran supports Marxist Atheist PKK Kurds, which does suicide bombings similar to ISIS killing innocent people. And then you expect me to call who is behind all this "rahbar"? If this is all true, then what makes khamanei different than erdogan?

7 hours ago, aIthaqalayn12 said:

Please read the thread name carefully and it's contents, and read your posts. Totally off topic.

It's totally spot on because it gives an idea about what's gonna happen if any marja or cleric opposes or doesn't get along with wilayat e faqeh.

Edited by celestial

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7 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

obviously there are. the rules that apply to muslims do not apply to non muslims. do I need to explain this to you?

This was reference to law that are personal in nature, also are applicable society, eg. Usury. Obviously it will take different forms.

 

7 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

no one can give a hukm but a masum, and no one can call for offensive jihad but a masum. defensive jihad is self apparant as self defence is wajib

There was no reference to offensive jihad. The hukm of Ayatollah Mirza Shirazi regarding Tabaco ban in late 1800s serves as reminder of a marja banning something based on contextual situation of a time in a successful attempt of stopping the British conspiracy. Regarding defensive jihad is not self apparent. All one has to do is take a look at Iraq within the last decade. It was the fatwas of ayatollah Sistani, imam Khamenei, Iran led Shia militias that saved Iraq from multiple phases of conspiracies, including all out Shia/sunni war. They were the ones who knew when to fight and when to stay calm. Without that, there would be no Iraq as we know it today. Self defence being wajib means nothing if there is no wail guiding the believers.

7 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

sure they can. but theres a difference between something being a good idea and something being instructed by the masumeen.

This can be said about anything coming from a non infallibles. However, this is not what welayat is about. Muslim, representative of imam Hussein, did not have direct permission to take over Kufa, but it was essential to do this. Kufis of that day, much like your way of thinking, didn't understand that welayat of Muslim was linked to welayat of Imam Hussein, and the rest is history.

7 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

no, read the hadith again, carefully this time.

Be less condescending, and more intellectual. With the looming Shias/sunni war in Iraq, was it not the fatwa of ayatollah Sistani and Imam Khamenei regarding insulting the Sunnis that brought that in control? Imams forbid the Shias to seek out judgments from taguts. This is not limited to merely personal disputes, or avoiding judgment from judges from tagut governments, while turning to the same government for resolving their issues. In other words, if the Iraqi government issues order for abandoning the fight against ISIS, and ayatollah Sistani, issues a hukm to fight, the Shias must follow ayatollah Sistani.

 

7 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

is that what I am suggesting?

 

Their is what you are suggesting, even if you don't have the foresight to understand it.  Do you understand what it takes to bring Islamic values into the folds of a society. What it takes to bring about an Islamic system without usury? Or the other 1400 systems? This requires basirat and immense Islamic knowledge to know the state of readiness of the society, to know when to move forward and when to slow down, what to implement at when and how to implement them. How these systems fit togather, and which takes priority. Dismantling the system of welayat of Fagih and the Islamic revolution will open the door for any tagut to take over without any understanding or knowledge required to implement Islamic values and system, or even belief in them. Having a simplistic world view and belief imam Mahdi will just fix everything, will get us nowhere. What if Imam Mahdi does not return for the next 100 years or 1000 years? Are we to look towards non Muslims for guidance? Is that not absurd?

7 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

its an unquestionable fact that sayed khamenei has not studied islam anywhere near the level of our top maraji.

Not studied Islam. From your comments, you're no authority to make any judgment on any scholar. Islam is not about  studies, its about being understood. Imam Khamenei does indeed have the qualifications to be a mujtahid and Maria. There is a world of difference between a Fagih giving fatwas disconnected from social context, to understand how Islamic values and figh relates to Islamic society. The understanding to know how to direct the society against all imperialist agendas, neutralizing internal threats, and still directing the society towards Islamic values. This cannot be found in books. You can see the difference of understanding when many of these marjas make comment regarding social issues. We can see this regarding the recent nuclear deal Iran made with comments made by some of  the respectable marjas

"Grand Ayatollah Vahid Khorasani’s compliments of Rouhani were the highlight of the trip. Khorasani, who rarely talks politics and is highly influential in Qom, told Rouhani, “You're one of the best presidents and are faced with overwhelming problems.” "

Rohani is one of the most liberal presidents, and effectively sold out Iran's nuclear capabilities for mere promises. His economic policies are purely neoliberal in nature and have nothing to do with Islam. He now seeks other rounds of negotiations for dismantling Iran's missile capababilites and dissolving the resistance movement.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/03/iran-rouhani-qom-nuclear-talks-cultural-policy.html

 

8 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

yes it does. is the wilayat of a man looking after an orphan child, the exact same wilayat of a man in charge of a country of sane, educated adults capable of making their own decisions? obviously there are differences. use your intelligence.

This is regarding welayat of those who are deemed as Hujat upon us by the infallible imams and not regular people.

 

The belief of removing welayat Fagih from society is a dangerous one as opens door to any tagut to take over. We will not be able to pave way for the return of imam Mahdi if we cannot even accept the welayat of those he deemed as hujat upon us. This is the only path of brining Islam to the folds of the society.

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I will echo @The Batman's sentiments, in that many members should be careful who they label as "anti-WF" without any assessment whatsoever.

 

The example of Montazeri is particularly problematic, as brother @kamyar mentioned: he wrote a rather long book on the theory of WF. He was, however, against the theory of wilayat mutlaqa. This does not mean rejecting WF in its entirety!

 

Overall, WF is one of the most misunderstood topics among Shia. Not only do many of us not know what it is, but we project our views onto scholars who clearly do not have such a view.

 

@celestial

1) Iran isn't supporting PKK.

2) They're not really Marxists or atheists in the conventional sense, any more than they are Sunni. (And yes, they do claim to be Sunni and this is part of their grudge against Iran; for supposed oppression of their sect). Their goal is secession and united Kurdistan. Don't bother looking into their nominal ideology which is just a formality, or a vestige from when Marxism was an actual thing.

3) Enjoy this:

 

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1 hour ago, baradar_jackson said:

 

This is not about khamanei, his name isn't even mentioned.

This is a silly kurdish sufi song praising about their local sheikh or something.

Though, it still amazes me that the majority of Turkish Shias are hardcore pro-WF. They are more royalist than the king.

Edited by celestial

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7 hours ago, celestial said:

This is a bold confession. So, the "Islamic" Iran supports Marxist Atheist PKK Kurds, which does suicide bombings similar to ISIS killing innocent people. And then you expect me to call who is behind all this "rahbar"? If this is all true, then what makes khamanei different than erdogan?

It's totally spot on because it gives an idea about what's gonna happen if any marja or cleric opposes or doesn't get along with wilayat e faqeh.

1)It's not a confession, it's a nightmare that the kurds are being armed to fight their enemies such as isis and turkey who support isis and they favor iran hence why in Kurdistan they tried to set up a Kurdish Hezbollah and a al hashidh al shabi popular mobilizing forces which is Shiite. opse.  That's the reason you hate Iran and wilayat al faqeeh...How does it feel to have someone take your mask off and show the truth?

2)not spot on, the thread is about anti wilayat al faqeeh...you gave us names of people who have different views.

Edited by AIthaqaIayn12

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17 minutes ago, AIthaqaIayn12 said:

How does it feel to have someone take your mask off and show the truth?

Well well well, look at this gentleman, we have a Sherlock Holmes here. LOL.

I couldn't care less about Kurds, you were the one who blurted it out.

Have fun with your faqeh oppressors.

Edited by celestial

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4 minutes ago, celestial said:

Well well well, look at this gentleman, we have a Sherlock Holmes here. LOL.

I couldn't care less about Kurds, you were the one who blurted it out.

Have fun with your faqeh oppressors.

It's nice to meet you ;) *tips hat*

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7 minutes ago, celestial said:

Well well well, look at this gentleman, we have a Sherlock Holmes here. LOL.

I couldn't care less about Kurds, you were the one who blurted it out.

Have fun with your faqeh oppressors.

After reading my comment your hair went up and you got anxiety, your face felt like it had cold water come down of it when in reality its radiating heat....and now you left the conversation after being caught. Due keep going it's entertaining, let's pretend that I didn'tt take your mask off..keep talking *tips hat*

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4 minutes ago, AIthaqaIayn12 said:

After reading my comment your hair went up and you got anxiety, your face felt like it had cold water come down of it when in reality its radiating heat....and now you left the conversation after being caught. Due keep going it's entertaining, let's pretend that I didn'tt take your mask off..keep talking *tips hat*

You are very talented. Have you ever considered becoming an entertainer?

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5 minutes ago, celestial said:

You are very talented. Have you ever considered becoming an entertainer?

Actually a psychologist for my minor at college, hence why I caught you so easily and knew exactly how you felt too

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6 minutes ago, AIthaqaIayn12 said:

Actually a psychologist for my minor at college, hence why I caught you so easily and knew exactly how you felt too

"The cobbler's children have no shoes"

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13 minutes ago, celestial said:

"The cobbler's children have no shoes"

Having no shoes and walking barefooted is no shame. Oh and speaking of oppressors, lets see what ErDOGan did shall we?

1-sending hitmen to attack an editor for revealing his plans with ISIS. https://www.rt.com/news/342092-shooter-attack-journalist-turkey/

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/341148-turkey-silence-criticism-eu/

2-http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/12/europe/germany-erdogan-joke-prosecution/index.html <--complain over a comedian, wanting to kill him..

3-http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/11/world/isis-shooting-turkey-alshurqat/index.html <--getting a man shot for talking against isis

4-https://www.rt.com/in-motion/342077-clashes-police-dnkp-istanbul/ <--killing protestors?

https://www.rt.com/news/340998-erdogan-censorship-europe-genocide/

https://www.rt.com/news/341090-turkey-secularism-protest-police/

5-https://www.rt.com/news/341977-zaman-shutdown-turkey-erdogan/ <--shut down a whole news station for exposing his terrorism?

6-https://www.rt.com/news/341427-turkey-kurds-parliament-clashes/ <--massacring kurds? and oppressing them?

7-https://www.rt.com/news/341250-turkey-kurds-killings-un/ <--more killing of kurds and oppresison

 

^^^Those are just let's say a few things..just a few...

 

 

 

 

Edited by AIthaqaIayn12

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