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In the Name of God بسم الله

How should believers live in the West?

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Ali-F

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Peace be upon you.

Here in my country, in Europe, they have many discussions (political and so on) about Islam.

In this week, the discussion is about segregation in swimming-halls. People find that wrong meaning that they have the opinion that boys and girls should swim together. They don't understand this fact that it's not allowed for us, Muslims.

Now, how should a believing, conservative, but a modern Muslim, react to such hetz or attacks? 

Obviously, I am myself affected by this, and to read about this Muslim-bashing every week, is something you are tired of.

How should we deal with this?

 

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Bismillah.

Salaam.

You have to encounter such issues both scientifically and softly (as we see that our beloved prophet and Imams (s) used to face people based on mercy and Rahmah); for example in regard with swimming, you are supposed to elaborate on its reasons; you can explain that Islam considers a very high-level status for women and based on this fundamental basis, some interactions between men and women are not permissible in order to protect women's dignity.

With Duas.

Narsis.

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Salam Ali-F,

I'm not a Muslim, but as a Christian from the USA, I would like to give my point of view.

In the USA and in some areas in Europe, some people have reached their limit of tolerance for globalization.

This for example is why Trump is so popular in the USA right now.  That is why his proposed ban on Muslims from entering the USA, as well as identifying Muslims in the USA and keeping a closer watch on their mosques, is so accepted by so many Americans. They ignore the fact that his policies are against the Constitution and our freedoms. :(

Most importantly, not loving Muslims who are our neighbors is disobedience to Jesus Christ. However, some Americans who identify as Christians care more for patriotism. :(

And guess who cheers this? Europeans who feel like Europe is undergoing "Islamification" and they don't appreciate it. They vocally support Trump and say that the USA needs to "wake up" before it happens here.

Many Westerners are tired of "political correctness" and are more into preserving their cultures and protecting them from Sharia now. 

I debate with Trump supporters because I believe Trump will hurt the USA more than any other candidate currently running. :(

However, the violence going on in the Muslim world doesn't help me defend Muslims' rights to immigrate and live here freely. :(

Also, each and every time a place in the West or Israel is attacked by people who identify as Muslims, that helps Trump. :(

So personally, I think there's a lot more at stake here than just  swimming halls. Muslims can build their own private segregated swimming halls if they so desire, just like some Christians do.

Some Christians opt to build private swimming pools and have their own rules for their swimming pools, which is fine. We don't try to force our beliefs' rules on the community because we understand the right of people to have freedom of religion. That includes the right of people to not obey God's rules. After all, God is the Judge and on Judgement Day, He will judge people.

So, my personal opinion is to deal with this by supporting segregated Muslim swimming halls. This is the same advice I give to my fellow Christians who do not want to swim in a secularized environment. (There are Christian workout places where women workout separately from the men, which in my opinion is awesome!)

Peace and God bless you

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2 hours ago, Ali-F said:

Peace be upon you.

Here in my country, in Europe, they have many discussions (political and so on) about Islam.

In this week, the discussion is about segregation in swimming-halls. People find that wrong meaning that they have the opinion that boys and girls should swim together. They don't understand this fact that it's not allowed for us, Muslims.

Now, how should a believing, conservative, but a modern Muslim, react to such hetz or attacks? 

Obviously, I am myself affected by this, and to read about this Muslim-bashing every week, is something you are tired of.

How should we deal with this?

 

At University at Brighton were people believe 'freeing the nipple' is a legitimate campaign, I am in a similar situation. Islam here is ignored, the place I live is all about drinking, clubbing and sex, that is all life is about. 

So as a Muslim you are quite isolated from the rest of the believing world, 

Now how to face these people... In my opinion, you dont react unless needed to. Apart from that inform people when asked, for example why do we segregate? Stops us from committing ilegal sexual acts at most, or staring at the other gender and having sexual ideas, least of which, we like to be conservative for our loved ones, we save our bodies for our spouses. Trust me the number of people who marvelled at the idea of being conservative for their partners was amazing, they loved the idea of there partner being for them and them only, of course no one will follow unless your deens asks you to do so.

In general, find a logical pathway to answer the questions because Islam is full of logic. For example, separating wont cause much harm would it? Have a specific time dedicated to mixed then to segregated and people can choose for themselves.

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9 minutes ago, HayderM said:

At University at Brighton were people believe 'freeing the nipple' is a legitimate campaign, I am in a similar situation. Islam here is ignored, the place I live is all about drinking, clubbing and sex, that is all life is about. 

Salam HayderM,

Did you know this about the university before going, yet you made the conscious decision to study there instead of at a Muslim university?

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So as a Muslim you are quite isolated from the rest of the believing world, 

Out of curiosity, why not choose a Muslim university? As a Christian, I first chose a Christian university because I did not want to be in a secular environment. It wasn't until later that I chose a secular university, but I hung out at church instead of at the campus.

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Now how to face these people... In my opinion, you dont react unless needed to.

 

Agreed.

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Apart from that inform people when asked, for example why do we segregate? Stops us from committing ilegal sexual acts at most, or staring at the other gender and having sexual ideas, least of which, we like to be conservative for our loved ones, we save our bodies for our spouses.

Awesome! This is like Christian beliefs as well! :)

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Trust me the number of people who marvelled at the idea of being conservative for their partners was amazing, they loved the idea of there partner being for them and them only, of course no one will follow unless your deens asks you to do so.

Aye. When I was at the secular college, I would quote the Bible when guys would talk with me. They flew away lol,  and God brought into my life a wonderful Christian husband for me who did not fly away when I quoted the Bible to him and insisted on following God's rules for marriage. He was praying for a woman who loves God more than him, so God answered his prayer! :) (I was also praying for a husband who loves God, and God answered my prayer!)

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In general, find a logical pathway to answer the questions because Islam is full of logic. For example, separating wont cause much harm would it?

Segregation is actually a bad word here in the USA, due to the segregation of women and their lack of rights till women nonviolently fought for their rights around a 100 years ago. Segregation is also a bad word in the USA because of segregation based on skin color :( until the Civil Rights Movement. 

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Have a specific time dedicated to mixed then to segregated and people can choose for themselves.

This is what some Christian places do... they have segregated times or segregated places for working out, especially. People who go to Christian places know that they are required to abide by the rules.

Peace and God bless you

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21 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Muslims move to the West for 2 primary reasons:

  •  

I disagree with you.

Yes, it's a huge problem that those who enter a new country demand this and that, but this post is not about being an immigrant, my dear brother, but rather being a Muslim. You can be born in a Western country or travel with your family while you were a young child (like me). You can still me a good citizen, and so on.

Obviously, when a Muslim faces some different problems in the West, it's not that he cannot solve them. No, there're manay different ways. For example, if he can't go to a club with his friends, he tells them that he can't. Simple. So I think you are over-reacting, my dear brother.

Adding to my points, I would briefly tell how I myself cope with this problem.

After state-school, I finally had to enter high school. There's no Muslim highschool here where I live, so it had to be a non-Muslim. But that wasn't/isn't really a problem. Yes, people go to parties, but I avoid the parties. People like to drink, but I avoid to drink. They like to do so and so, but I just don't do it. Now, as a moderat, modern, conservative Muslim, I reached a stage where I thought that "I can't live here with this kind of fasad", but I have to say that the picture is not like this.

As the Quran tells us, if you support God, He will support you.

 

Thanks for your comment by the way. 

 

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2 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam HayderM,

Did you know this about the university before going, yet you made the conscious decision to study there instead of at a Muslim university?

No not before, and apparently this is every University. It used to be brutal mentally at first but I see it as a test, If i survive this, no desire can stand in my way.

 

2 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Out of curiosity, why not choose a Muslim university? As a Christian, I first chose a Christian university because I did not want to be in a secular environment. It wasn't until later that I chose a secular university, but I hung out at church instead of at the campus.

Muslims are majority Sunni and I personally like to avoid surrounding myself with big groups of them here just for the sake of peace of mind, they will see me doing things they dont agree with. Just for me personally, as a shia we faced alot of hate from the other side and questionning so I like to isolate from them.

 

2 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Aye. When I was at the secular college, I would quote the Bible when guys would talk with me. They flew away lol,  and God brought into my life a wonderful Christian husband for me who did not fly away when I quoted the Bible to him and insisted on following God's rules for marriage. He was praying for a woman who loves God more than him, so God answered his prayer! :) (I was also praying for a husband who loves God, and God answered my prayer!)

Thats so nice, when I quote the Quran people run away too, I believe partly what the bible says however you can imagine, as a muslim I take the Quran primary to everything but Gods word does reside within the Bible to so I agree with you. Its very nice to hear you ended up with someone who is God concious! May God/Allah bless you both in this world and the next :)

2 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Segregation is actually a bad word here in the USA, due to the segregation of women and their lack of rights till women nonviolently fought for their rights around a 100 years ago. Segregation is also a bad word in the USA because of segregation based on skin color :( until the Civil Rights Movement. 

Yeah I can imagine, personally I find the word 'heavy' so to speak when used.

2 hours ago, Christianlady said:

This is what some Christian places do... they have segregated times or segregated places for working out, especially. People who go to Christian places know that they are required to abide by the rules.

That is best, this happens back where I am from Lebanon, there are Mixed and there's segregated, choose where you wish to go.

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2 hours ago, Ali-F said:

I disagree with you.

Yes, it's a huge problem that those who enter a new country demand this and that, but this post is not about being an immigrant, my dear brother, but rather being a Muslim. You can be born in a Western country or travel with your family while you were a young child (like me). You can still me a good citizen, and so on.

 

Same argument holds whether you are an immigrant or born citizen. As Muslims, we have so much work to do within our communities yet we seem to be more interested in changing other communities.

2 hours ago, Ali-F said:

Obviously, when a Muslim faces some different problems in the West, it's not that he cannot solve them. No, there're manay different ways. For example, if he can't go to a club with his friends, he tells them that he can't. Simple. So I think you are over-reacting, my dear brother.

Adding to my points, I would briefly tell how I myself cope with this problem.

After state-school, I finally had to enter high school. There's no Muslim highschool here where I live, so it had to be a non-Muslim. But that wasn't/isn't really a problem. Yes, people go to parties, but I avoid the parties. People like to drink, but I avoid to drink. They like to do so and so, but I just don't do it. Now, as a moderat, modern, conservative Muslim, I reached a stage where I thought that "I can't live here with this kind of fasad", but I have to say that the picture is not like this.

You already have the solution brother. You just said what I am saying. Its better to remove oneself from an anti-islamic situation than to create a fuss for nothing.

I completely understand your situation and at the same time I believe we as Muslims owe it to Islam to present it in the best light possible and one of the ways to do it is to not make our Islam it difficult for others or us for that matter.

love and respect.

 

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Below is taken from http://www.sistani.org/english/book/46/2024/

Question: What is the meaning of at-ta'arrub ba'd al-hijra which is one of the major sins?

Answer: Some jurists have said that during our time, it applies to residing in countries that may cause the loss of faith. It means the migration of a person from a country -where it is possible for him to learn the obligatory religious teachings and laws, and where it is possible for him to fulfill his obligations and refrain from what is forbidden- to a country where this possibility does not exist fully or partially.

 

Question: A believer residing in Europe, America and other similar countries feels estranged from the religious environment in which he was born and raised. Neither does he hear the voice of the Qur'an [recited from mosques] nor the sound of the adhan (1) coming [from the minarets]; and there are no holy shrines, and their spiritual atmosphere, that he can visit. Is leaving such an Islamic environment of his country and its positive aspects considered "loss of faith"?

Answer: This is not the loss of faith that would make residing in a non-Muslim country haram for that person. However, staying away from such a religious environment may, with the passage of time, weaken the religious resolve of the immigrant to an extent that he may consider negligence of wajib deeds and committing of sins as insignificant. If a person has this fear that he might lose the faith in this manner, then it is not permissible for him to take residence in that country.

 

Question: Sometimes a Muslim residing in Europe and America (and other similar places) indulges in haram activities that he would not have done, if he remained in his Muslim country. The manifestations of temptation in non-Muslim societies may attract a Muslim to committing haram deeds even if he is not inclined towards them. Does this come under the banner of "loss of faith" that makes it haram for him to stay in that country?

Answer: Yes; unless the sins he sometimes indulges in, and without insisting upon them, they are of the minor category.

 

Question: At-ta'arrub ba'd al-hijra has been described as "migrating to a country in which the religious knowledge of the immigrant will decrease, thus becoming more alienated from his faith." Does this mean that a Muslim in such countries is duty bound to be extra vigilant lest he should become alienated from his faith?

Answer: The extra care becomes wajib when not being mindful leads to loss of faith as described earlier.

 

Question: If a religious preacher who is mindful of his faith starts facing more situations where he commits haram deeds because of the social environment (e.g., nudity and indecent exposures), is it haram for him to stay in those countries; that is, should he stop propagation (tabligh) and return to his own country?

Answer: If he indulges in some minor sins occasionally, then it is not haram for him to stay in that country, provided that he is confident that he would not be tempted to commit more serious sins.

 

Question: If an immigrant fears the loss of faith for his children, is it haram for him to stay in that non-Muslim country?

Answer: Yes, the same rule applies to himself also.

 

Question: Is it wajib on the immigrants in Europe and America (and other similar countries) to strive for teaching their children Arabic, and that ignorance of Arabic may lead in the future to ignorance of the main Islamic body of knowledge, and that will naturally lead to less familiarity with religious teachings and loss of faith?

Answer: To teach them Arabic is wajib only to the extent which is necessary for performing their religious duties that have to be done in Arabic (e.g., recitation of the Opening chapter of the Qur'an, a second chapter, and other wajib recitations in salat). Teaching more than that is not wajib as long as it is possible to provide them with religious knowledge in a foreign language.Of course, it is recommended to teach them the holy Qur'an [in Arabic]; rather it is important to teach them Arabic in a precise form so that they may benefit from the basic sources of Islamic teachings, especially, and foremost among them, after the holy Qur'an, is the Prophetic sunna and the sayings of the Ahlul Bayt (peace be with them all).

 

 

Question: If it is possible for a Muslim to reside in a Muslim country with some financial difficulty compared to his present situation, then is it wajib on him to travel to that Muslim country and leave his residence in Western countries?

Answer: It is not wajib [to leave the Western country] except if he has no confidence in himself, in that he may lose his faith -as explained earlier- while residing in the foreign country.

 

Question: If a person has the ability to propagate Islam to non-Muslims or to disseminate religious knowledge among Muslims in non-Muslim countries without any danger of losing his own faith, is it wajib on such a person to do propagation (tabligh)?

Answer: Yes, it is wajib kifa'i upon him and all the others who have the ability to propagate [Islam].

 

Question: Is it permissible for a person to buy a passport [i.e., to illegally obtain a passport] or change the picture in the passport so that he may be able to enter a country, and then he would let the immigration officials of that country know the truth about his identity?

Answer: We do not allow it.

 

Question: Is it permissible for a person to reside in non-Muslim countries with all its temptations that confronts the person on the street, the school, the television and other media while he has the ability to migrate to a Muslim country although that transfer would cause difficulty in residence, loss of material wealth and comfort, and constrain the worldly aspects of his life? If it is not permissible to remain in such a country, would his efforts in propagation among the Muslims (reminding them of their obligations and encouraging them to refrain from haram) change the rule for him and allow him to remain in that country?

Answer: It is not haram to stay in that country, if it does not create hurdles for him and his family in fulfilling their religious obligations presently as well as in future; otherwise, it would not be permissible even if he is engaged in some kind of propagation activities. And Allah knows the best.

 

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On 4/29/2016 at 1:34 PM, shiaman14 said:

Muslims move to the West for 2 primary reasons:

  • The mighty $ or £ or 
  • Safety and security and liberty offered in the West

 

Salam Shiaman14,

The above are the reasons why people of any religion or no religion move to the West, including Christians.

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yet when we move here, we think  are entitled to the same values as found in our homeland and/or culture.

This is not just a Muslim view. Christians have in general done the same. 

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When we find the benefits of the West are in contradiction with our values, we expect the West to change their entire way of living to accommodate us.

This is the point in which people need to consider: what makes the West so different? In my opinion, the main one is the ability of people from diverse cultures and beliefs to live together and enjoy equal freedoms, as well as to agree to disagree on differences.

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For example, this year New York gave a public holiday on Eid to all schools. Is there a single Muslim country that would shut down for Yom Kippur or another Jewish holiday. Indonesia and Malaysia are closed on Christmas and Easter but do other Muslim country accommodates Christians?

Great question. Does Lebanon? Lebanon has many Christians, yes?

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We believe it is our right in demand that the West 'fix' itself to accommodate us when in reality the choice we have is to assimilate, isolate or go back.

I think it's perfectly fine for Muslims to keep their faith and practice their faith, though it's also important for them to respect the freedoms of other people. Some people don't want to hear the Muslim call for prayer, for example. Should they be forced to hear it? No. Some people don't want to hear church bells ringing. Should they be forced to hear it? No. Thankfully, with modern technology, Christians can privately hear Christian bells or songs and Muslims can privately hear the Muslim call to prayer. It's really cool how Muslims and Christians can live together in peace while respecting each other. While both sides invite each other to their brotherhood of believers, both sides also are to respect the decisions of each individual.

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I have lived in the West for 25+ years. If there is a public swimming pool, then my choices are either to not swim or swim with whoever is there; 

100% agreed.

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I cant go to a baseball game and tell them to not sell alcohol; I cant go to the theater and ask them to censor all movies with nudity, etc, etc, etc. These are choices we have to make.

 

Agreed.

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If you want to go swimming, ask within your community to help fund a private swimming pool.

And, this is great for the ladies in a faith-based community! It is nice to have a private area to swim and visit without men around!

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If you want a university environment without  drinking, clubbing and sex, find a Muslim university in England or Iran/Iraq/Saudi/etc.

Some (not all) Christian universities are also quite strict. My first Christian university was too strict lol. I got in trouble for talking with a male student after biology class. We were just friends, but I found out pretty quickly that this Christian university was way too segregated for me. (I like talking with both men and women and I don't discriminate based on their gender.) I transferred to a less strict Christian university, with rules against premarital sex and segregated dorms,  but no segregation in public areas on campus.

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If I was a Westerner I would be sick of us too - on the one hand, we see the Muslim countries protesting us, threatening us, hating us. On the other hand, those of us in the West expect the West to change their lifestyle and culture for us. The once peaceful and tolerant West has seen enough from us to either be confused about us, or hate us.

The West is indeed confused by Islam in general. Some Westerners sadly react with hatred, which is against Jesus Christ's commands to love. Others simply just want Muslims to shape up and stop killing each other - to learn to live together in peace in spite of their differences.. Some see what's going on in the Muslim world as what happened in Christendom long time ago, where Christians were killing Christians and people of other beliefs before Christians finally learned to live together in peace and agree to disagree.

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This is probably going to be a very unpopular post but that's the way it is. If we dont like living in the West, maybe we shouldnt

I don't think that's a popular view, but it is reasonable. And again, Muslims have the right to freely live out their faith in the West, same as Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, and everyone else does - including those with no faith. We just can't force each other to adhere to the rules of our own faith.

Peace and God bless you

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On 4/29/2016 at 2:08 PM, HayderM said:

No not before, and apparently this is every University. It used to be brutal mentally at first but I see it as a test, If i survive this, no desire can stand in my way.

Salam HayderM,

That's a great way to see it! In my opinion, a truly strong man or woman can face temptation without falling into it. For example, Job said this:

"I made a covenant with mine eyes; how then should I look upon a maid?" - Job 31:1

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2731.htm

It doesn't seem like he tried to control what other people were doing or wearing. Rather, he controlled his own eyes. He decided not to look. That's why it's so admirable when both Muslim and Christian men decide not to look and instead focus on pleasing God, not their flesh.

And, Joseph faced temptation yet he ran away from it - literally. While his boss' wife wanted to sleep with him, he refused and literally ran away. This is strength as well, because he could not force her to stop making advances at him. He could control himself though, and he took himself out of where she was. This is very important too: to run away from temptation.

This is the same with women too, since women should decide not to look too, and focus on pleasing God instead of their flesh. When temptation arises, they need to resist it or run away from it. Both are signs of strength, since weakness = falling into temptation.

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Muslims are majority Sunni and I personally like to avoid surrounding myself with big groups of them here just for the sake of peace of mind, they will see me doing things they dont agree with. Just for me personally, as a shia we faced alot of hate from the other side and questionning so I like to isolate from them.

Oh. :( I am sorry. Yeah, most of my Muslim friends are Sunni and their views of Shias range from not being "true Muslim" to misinformed.

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Thats so nice, when I quote the Quran people run away too, I believe partly what the bible says however you can imagine, as a muslim I take the Quran primary to everything but Gods word does reside within the Bible to so I agree with you. Its very nice to hear you ended up with someone who is God concious! May God/Allah bless you both in this world and the next

Thanks! :) May God greatly bless you and your loved ones!
 

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Yeah I can imagine, personally I find the word 'heavy' so to speak when used.

That is best, this happens back where I am from Lebanon, there are Mixed and there's segregated, choose where you wish to go.

 

That's cool. In Lebanon, are there days off/ federal holidays during Christian celebrations, like Christmas and Easter? Thanks

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady
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27 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam HayderM,

That's a great way to see it! In my opinion, a truly strong man or woman can face temptation without falling into it. For example, Job said this:

"I made a covenant with mine eyes; how then should I look upon a maid?" - Job 31:1

I really like that quote, I made a covenant with mine eyes, so will i :D

27 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

That's cool. In Lebanon, are there days off/ federal holidays during Christian celebrations, like Christmas and Easter? Thanks

Peace and God bless you

I am 99% sure they do have that stuff, infact Christians in Lebanon alot of the time are very peaceful and modest people you will find, alot better than what you will find in the UK for example where its become merely a 'name tag' to have a religion. They do celebrate religious holidays and pay attention to them.

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15 minutes ago, HayderM said:

I really like that quote, I made a covenant with mine eyes, so will i :D

 

Salam HayderM,

I have too! :) I think this is one of the many similarities between Islam and Christianity: the importance of purity.

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I am 99% sure they do have that stuff, infact Christians in Lebanon alot of the time are very peaceful and modest people you will find, alot better than what you will find in the UK for example where its become merely a 'name tag' to have a religion. They do celebrate religious holidays and pay attention to them.

I've never been to either the UK or Lebanon before, but if God wills, I would love for my hubby and me to visit both countries someday. Thanks so much for answering my question.

And, in Lebanon, I would wear a hijab. I personally adore hijabs though I don't believe they are necessary to be modest here in the USA. I would happily wear them in a country where they are part of the definition of modesty though, including in Lebanon and Iran (I would love for my hubby and me to visit Iran someday too if God wills.)

There are so many beautiful hijabs that I would have a lot of fun with wearing them I think! :) If God wills my hubby and I ever go to Morocco and Turkey to visit my Muslim friends there, I will wear hijab in those countries too. While my Turkish friend doesn't wear a hijab, I think it'd be good for me to dress as modest as possible so I don't get unwanted attention. I won't wear a burqa though; i have my limits. Hijab yes; burka no. :)

Peace and God bless you

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5 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam HayderM,

I have too! :) I think this is one of the many similarities between Islam and Christianity: the importance of purity

Yes Indeed I see Christianity, Islam and Judaism on their fundamental level all the same, we all branched from the same place.

5 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

And, in Lebanon, I would wear a hijab. I personally adore hijabs though I don't believe they are necessary to be modest here in the USA. I would happily wear them in a country where they are part of the definition of modesty though, including in Lebanon. There are so many beautiful hijabs that I would have a lot of fun with wearing them I think! :) If God wills my hubby and I ever go to Morocco and Turkey to visit my Muslim friends there, I will wear hijab in those countries too. While my Turkish friend doesn't wear a hijab, I think it'd be good for me to dress as modest as possible so I don't get unwanted attention. I won't wear a burqa though; i have my limits. Hijab yes; burka no. :)

Ahh yes I agree too, when I study the world I do see why the Hijab would help but the Burqa would create too many problems, although its peoples choice so its up to them. So I agree hijab yes burqa no. Im sure you will love places! May God bless you.

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3 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Shiaman14,

The above are the reasons why people of any religion or no religion move to the West, including Christians.

This is not just a Muslim view. Christians have in general done the same. 

Peace @Christianlady

My points were strictly about Muslims since that is the question OP asked about but I agree that the reasons for anyone to move to the West are pretty much the same.

 

3 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Great question. Does Lebanon? Lebanon has many Christians, yes?

Per http://www.officeholidays.com/countries/lebanon/, yes Lebanon has a PH on Christmas.

 

Thanks for your comments.

Best regards.

 

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22 hours ago, HayderM said:

Yes Indeed I see Christianity, Islam and Judaism on their fundamental level all the same, we all branched from the same place.

Salam HayderM,

I agree that Judaism and Christianity branch from the same place because both King David and Jesus Christ are from Israel/Judea.

I disagree that Islam is branched from the same place as Judaism and Christianity, because Muhammad is from Arabia, not from Israel/Judea.

As a Gentile who accepts the Jewish Messiah Jesus as my King, I've been "grafted in" to the tree, one could say.

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Ahh yes I agree too, when I study the world I do see why the Hijab would help

100% agreed.

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but the Burqa would create too many problems,

100% agreed.

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although its peoples choice so its up to them. So I agree hijab yes burqa no.

Yes, women being able to choose is definitely the ideal! I am perfectly fine with women voluntarily choosing to wear either the hijab or burqa. It's when they are forced to do so or forced not to do so that is the problem.

Personally, I believe it pleases God far more when a person voluntarily chooses to do something because they believe God wants them to do so, than when they are forced to do it by other people.

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Im sure you will love places! May God bless you.

Me too! Thanks! Peace and God bless you too :)

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On 29 April 2016 at 5:31 PM, HayderM said:

. Islam here is ignored, the place I live is all about drinking, clubbing and sex, that is all life is about. 

Sounds like all western universities to me.. 

On 29 April 2016 at 5:44 PM, Christianlady said:

Did you know this about the university before going, yet you made the conscious decision to study there instead of at a Muslim university?

Muslim universities only exist in Muslim countries and, most often than not, the degrees you obtain from them are not accepted in western countries (where most of us reside). So it would be pointless to attend a Muslim university. 

On 29 April 2016 at 7:34 PM, shiaman14 said:

If you want a university environment without  drinking, clubbing and sex, find a Muslim university in England or Iran/Iraq/Saudi/etc.

These exist? Completely agree your entire post shiaman! I too don't understand why we expect the west to alter their culture to accomodate ours. 

On 29 April 2016 at 8:01 PM, Ali-F said:

After state-school, I finally had to enter high school. There's no Muslim highschool here where I live, so it had to be a non-Muslim. But that wasn't/isn't really a problem. Yes, people go to parties, but I avoid the parties. People like to drink, but I avoid to drink. They like to do so and so, but I just don't do it. Now, as a moderat, modern, conservative Muslim, I reached a stage where I thought that "I can't live here with this kind of fasad", but I have to say that the picture is not like this.

Exactly! And contrary to popular belief, people actually respect your beliefs when you set them out clearly. Most people genuinely couldn't care less about whether or not you prayed 5 times a day and didnt drink alcohol. I don't see why we can't mix with non-muslims and still avoid haram - so long as you don't have a weak personality and do not easily assimilate to social norms, you should be fine. 

 

In response to the OP, I think the only way to really deal with the situation at hand (or future situations as it seems this one may have already passed) is to explain why we refuse to mix at swimming centres and other similar conventions. If it's laid out clearly and in such a way where you show that you in no way expect others to abide by your own inhibitions, then people should generally be receptive. I mean, if they're going to throw a tantrum and hate you for deciding to act on your beliefs (and risk being labelled as culturally regressive) then just ignore them and move on with life. Not like there's much else that can be done. 

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On 5/7/2016 at 4:15 AM, yafatimaalzahra said:

 

Muslim universities only exist in Muslim countries and, most often than not, the degrees you obtain from them are not accepted in western countries (where most of us reside). So it would be pointless to attend a Muslim university. 

Salam Yafatimaalzahra,

Why are there no Muslim universities in Non-Muslim counties? Surely they are allowed, yes? I mean, there are some Muslim private schools in the USA, which is perfectly fine and legal, same as Jewish private schools and any other religious institution.

As for degrees not accepted, there are some Christian university degrees which are not accepted, if the university is not accredited. That's why some Christians choose to go send their kids to accredited Christian universities.

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I too don't understand why we expect the west to alter their culture to accomodate ours. 

Thanks for mentioning this. :) This is the position my Muslim friends have too.

Many Muslims don't want to force their religion and cultures on Non-Muslim Americans; they just want the same freedoms as we have. And of course, they want to invite people to their belief as well as be good ambassadors for their faith. That's just like Christianity in many ways; both Islam and Christianity are missionary faiths.

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Exactly! And contrary to popular belief, people actually respect your beliefs when you set them out clearly.

True!

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Most people genuinely couldn't care less about whether or not you prayed 5 times a day and didnt drink alcohol. I don't see why we can't mix with non-muslims and still avoid haram - so long as you don't have a weak personality and do not easily assimilate to social norms, you should be fine.  really

Agreed.

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 I mean, if they're going to throw a tantrum and hate you for deciding to act on your beliefs (and risk being labelled as culturally regressive) then just ignore them and move on with life. Not like there's much else that can be done. 

Hatred actually hurts the hater, which is one reason Jesus commands us to love our neighbors as oneself, each other, and even enemies. We need to pray for people who hate us, no matter the reason they do. God can transform them; we just need to lift them up to Him in prayer.

Peace and God bless you

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1 hour ago, Christianlady said:

Why are there no Muslim universities in Non-Muslim counties? Surely they are allowed, yes? I mean, there are some Muslim private schools in the USA, which is perfectly fine and legal, same as Jewish private schools and any other religious institution.

We also have Muslim private schools in Australia :) I don't think it's a matter of Muslim universities being allowed; it's just that no one has built one yet. Or at least that's what I thought - shiaman14 seems to suggest there are some in England. 

1 hour ago, Christianlady said:

Many Muslims don't want to force their religion and cultures on Non-Muslim Americans; they just want the same freedoms as we have. And of course, they want to invite people to their belief as well as be good ambassadors for their faith. That's just like Christianity in many ways; both Islam and Christianity are missionary faiths.

This is true. 

13 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Just as there is YMCA & YWCA, we should have YMMA YMWA

Not sure why this was brought up but it brought back good 'ol childhood memories. The YMCA song is impossible to erase from memory - probably because of the million YMCA TV ads (are they still as common as they used to be?).  

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On 5/8/2016 at 2:41 PM, Christianlady said:

Why are there no Muslim universities in Non-Muslim counties? Surely they are allowed, yes? I mean, there are some Muslim private schools in the USA, which is perfectly fine and legal, same as Jewish private schools and any other religious institution.

 

On 5/8/2016 at 4:35 PM, yafatimaalzahra said:

We also have Muslim private schools in Australia :) I don't think it's a matter of Muslim universities being allowed; it's just that no one has built one yet. Or at least that's what I thought - shiaman14 seems to suggest there are some in England. 

This is true. 

Not sure why this was brought up but it brought back good 'ol childhood memories. The YMCA song is impossible to erase from memory - probably because of the million YMCA TV ads (are they still as common as they used to be?).  

There is definitely a hawza/seminary in the UK where you can get degrees in religious studies and other courses.

The main reason we do not have Muslim universities is primarily due to funding (IMHO). Only recently, do we have Muslims schools that cover K-12 in the US so we are some ways away from proper colleges and universities. Of course getting the right professors and accreditation will also be something to work out.

Probably in the next 15-20 years we may see some Muslim Universities in the US...unless Trump bans them :) 

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Probably in the next 15-20 years we may see some Muslim Universities in the US...unless Trump bans them :) 

Salam Shiaman14,

Well, Christians who obey Jesus Christ's command to do to others as you would have them do to you will protest if Trump becomes President and discriminates against Muslims.

There's a very interesting quote attributed to a Christian, Martin Liemoeller,  in Germany who said something like this:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew;
Then they
came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me.

http://veni.com/articles/firsttheycameforme.html

Here's some more info on Martin Niemoeller:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/niemoeller.html

Loving people = standing up for them, not ignoring it when people discriminate against them.

The Golden Rule (Luke 6:31) is in my opinion clear that if Christians want freedoms and Christian universities, it is vital that Christians allow Muslims and Muslim universities!!!

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady
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